Precision M4400 Owner's Lounge *Part 2*

My mistake...

 

Lost around 3 hours this morning with the Dell.
Yesterday everything was ok, I let the laptop powered on this night to finish a task and it was done during the night. I switch the M4400 off this morning during half an hour and then when I tried to switch it on again, it was not Ok.
I started the computer many times with Mac OS X 10 but each time, after few minutes the system crashed. The heatsink was high on temperature and I tried a lot of things : use a book under the laptop to let some fresh air coming, cleaned the heatsink, verified the screws...
After one hour of try, reboot after few minutes, I decided to clean the cooler paste and re-paste...
So I disassembled the heatsink and cleaned carefully the old thermal material on the GPU and CPU and also on the heatsink.
I have understood there is two schools for this: 1/ put just a little dot or 2/ put a lot of thermal paste everywhere...
I started to put just a little dot on the GPU and CPU then put the heatsink, the screws... And restarted. My good, it was worse than before, the M4400 was unable to finish the boot operations.
Then I tried to put more paste (unscrew, remove heatsink, put the paste, heatsink, screws...) : same effect. So I tried more paste... And also I installed a thermal captor on the heatsink to see what temperature it was: not for a precision temp reading but just to see the changes.
After the external thermometer installation with the thermal captor on the heatsink, I seen the temp from 30°C raising to 46 during the boot and at 46°C here came the crash ("panic" message or reboot). I tried few times this to confirm the crash at 46° (remember it is not the GPU temp, it's just a temp near the heatsink).
Then I remembered this message:

Of course, there is a gap between the GPU and the heatsink: it was obvious when I put just a little dot of paste on the GPU, because after installing the heatsink and then remove it, clearly the paste was not in contact with the heatsink.
So... I considered to trow the Dell by the window but decided to go to the Hong Kong Mod. What is Hong Kong Mod? Err... Well I found a coin from Hong Kong on my desk, the ideal size for the gap between the GPU and the heatsink. It was the window or the HKM, anyway.
I put the coin under the GPU, set the heatsink in it's place, screws, reboot... And now it's working. I first booted in Windows 10 to have a look on the temperatures, it was Ok, then I restarted with OSX 10 and it's running ok for the moment.
Pfff...

 

Glad my post helped you. Are those Hong Kong coins flat? If not I recommend getting a cheap copper shim on eBay. Make sure it's decently thick.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

 

..
Hi Renaud.
I like the link.
I've been distracted for a few days with work and projects, etc.
Plus... I was given an HP 4510s Probook. Finding out what's under the hood, as I type.

Addressing your reply first.,
I'm glad to here your getting what you wanted from the M4400.. Aside from your Win10 graphics report.
And it makes good sense not to push your luck with additional benchmarks if the machine is your primary PC.

With W10 not giving a fruck., They follow even further towards their MS tradition...
I get the feeling that OS is gonna be a "pain in the a$$" for pre-2010 system owners and their system, apps down the road.
For example...
More and more.., discontinued support and restrictions will placed on pre-Win10 apps and hardware. "That's not an "if"., it's "When."
Once they've got the majority of W10 users "in the bag" with no downgrade O.S. options to turn to..."Talk about getting owned."
Well., You know where that discussion leads to.

For now., If your sure the right GPU driver is installed...
Maybe there's still an M4400 solution for your W10 graphics compatibility. If there's any thread here on this site that might get answers,
It's going to be an Nvidia FX770m thread that still lives in a W10 world, thread.
Or maybe a more technical thread about Win10 annoyances, etc. Like aggressive unwanted install content disguised as updates...
Even though the topic may not be your W10 concern.

I found the members and numerous moderators hang their time to time on the link below. their very cool and aware of things.
You can ask a question in the spirit of wondering if W10 is the responsible element in your W10/FX770m graphics issue.
If a reply leads to more questions., You can carry on those replies on another suggested thread like the one were on now.

Just add a link to your reply to this thread and your, allowing them to return to their topic. Just an Idea. .
If you can use some help with this, let me know.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...s-10-upgrade-disable-telemetry.780476/page-31

Your so lucky that you taste isn't for gaming... Driving your PC choices like it does mine.
I'm thankfully, the very mild version to that extreme. Some patients can be the next step in waiting for some deal on a more
resent machine that has a solution to performance and none proprietary design.
I'm thinking something like a high-end Notebook, in the DDR3 class, after the 2016 releases have driven price points down a bit..

Meanwhile...
Here on Planet Denial...
*An alternative O.S. that isn't hell-bent on none-transparency would be nice in the immediate future.

About this HP 4510s Probook... It's been settled...
I just confirmed that it's not my best choice after finding limitations in the FSB's CPU designation.
Meaning... It won't except my T9400, let alone a T9900. Oh well... May be another day.

Nice bending your ear...
Good luck with the graphics solution for W10.

 

DUDE...

I just read your post. Cwazywayzy had my attention sometime back on this gap issue getting
resolved with a .2mm copper shim. What was the coin's thickness.. 1.2mm?

I'm glad you didn't throw the thing out because it sounds like the M4400 did everything right,
preventing a system meltdown.
What interests me now is the root cause and effect.
How your tech didn't see this gap is.. Well... I guess it could of happened to anyone.
But ya gotta admit.,The coincidence is uncanny. An oversight is not..

I bet some working theories come to mind. Ways to address this gap occurrence...
Not just fix it them.
Ad critical temps with uneven torque sequences, expansion and contraction.,
Ever so slight bending at structurally weak areas., The heat pipe's fastening location..
A non-methodical re-paste process..
These variances add up to a thorough inspection for possible causes or conditions, and
producing a discovery, is my guess.

If it got to the point where a gap now exists, where it didn't exist before... Investigate.

The "quick repair approach" is contributing to further possible issues causes.
The system board might be flexing under a poor match for perfect thickness with
a coin, making the System board warp even further, diminishing the torque strength
over normal extremes with continuing degradation to run hotter, still.

If there's a highly regarded thermal paste in Hong Kong?
I would track it down. And get shims.

I went overkill on the shim orders I purchases, building up a reasonable variety of shim
choices. Due to them being fairly inexpensive, for one.
A mod that deals with the M4400 more effectively, I hope.

The mod project I was eager to have completed by now has enough emphasis on this
in other posts. Which probably explains why my opinion is a little on the "tight side" with this development.

You survived a close one my friend.
And it does take a man to share this experience...
My hats off to you Renaud.

I've been up all night and saw your post as I was just about under covers..,
Hope I wasn't too cranky...lol.
Peace everyone.

 

Hi.
I got some rest and feel a lot less cranky... lol. Sorry.

I bought these a few weeks ago for just such an occasion.
They'll help with determining the closest shim choice without having to over compensate the
gap thickness.
speaking of which.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-30pcs-Laptop-GPU-CPU-Heatsink-Copper-Shim-15mmx15mm-
/261389636138?hash=item3cdc09522a:g:cHEAAOxyCGNTMP44


Check out this bubble-free technique, applying a thin thermal paste layer, in the vid below.

With all surfaces properly cleaned..,
Apply paste on CPU and GPU surface only., if there's no introduction of a shim.

When installing/using a shim(s)... Apply paste to CPU and GPU surfaces, along with both
heat-sink surfaces. This allows for easier placement and centering for a paste-free shim.

*Important.
If your having to remove the heat-pipe a few times to verify a good contact.,
You'll have to re-apply the paste to all surfaces involved, preventing any air bubbles
to remain between contact surfaces.
This is a must... Each time the heat-pipe is reinstalled.
-------------

-edit, 11-27 2015. I read somewhere one of the possible causes for this shim mod issue may
be due to either missing or uneven thickness with washer height or missing rubber bushings
under the system board's mounting locations.
If you inspect this area... One can confirm this.

If you're not the original owner...
Who knows...There's plenty of "Part Hacks" out here and there, failing to do the best for their
resale machines... Baring no concern for overlooked parts during re-assembly and in some
cases... completely disregarded.
My M4400 for example was pre-owned by the original owner. So, I can say it's likely in good
shape, based on the good health It was in when I purchased it.

But still... Any surprises are par for the course.

If all is normal with an inspection...
Which is my directly reference to effecting the CPU/GPU base height. doing so can return
much, if not all the factory height to the system board's base height tolerance.
This approach gives great opportunity to uncover the hidden view... Exposing contributing
factors, and how or why they developed from the start.
Thus eliminating the use of shims.

Or at least,, Allowing the use of a much thinner shim in comparison to a 2mm.
Like a much thinner and desirable compensation, in the .2mm range.

Of course., While you're down there and abnormal sights are discovered., This is good...
Good., In terms of being able to address the issues with a restoration.

Taking care that your keeping a close eye on the possible flex factor, aka, sagging/warping of
the system board itself...This may reveal the repair approach, all together.

You can still ad in compensation washer,(s) replace compressed bushings, look for chipped
or broken flanges that may be essential to a post's support area, and the post's themselves.
Shoring up any irreversible mounting posts issues.

Note:
Those rubber washers found on desktop systems are great for adding height underneath the
system board if needed., Effecting the CPU/GPU's nearest hold-down posts...
And yet, still allowing a cushion of relief to the system board's benefit.--

Getting a small supply of identical washers that have thinner thicknesses can be helpful adding
thinner washers on the outer perimeter of the target area. Baring the thickest washers, easing
the convex flex effect to a gradually minimum warp.(if any).
Base washer convex effects should be UNNOTICEABLE to the eye. AND a last resort if
needed.
!
The following would be my solution for addressing a less consequential approach involving all
components considered... This is only if the above was explored and proven to be too difficult
to rely on.
Knowing the cause of any need for alteration is wise BEFORE a mod is imposed.

That being said,
First., Get a backup heat-pipe assembly. Their inexpensive. New or unused is better than not
but isn't essential. Unplug all power sources + remove battery.

Install the backup heat pipe assembly on the machine without paste and do a contact
inspection. and see if there's any significant improvement or change in surface contact
compared to the original heat-pipe. Concerns, etc.

If there's some improvement but not enough to completely address the issue, set the newer
heat pipe aside as your primary original part. Now use the extracted heat pipe for altering.

If you know a machinist...
In the long run... A safer approach would be a permanent alteration, with the same repair in
mind.

This would be done by milling off any obstructions that prevent a full contact to the processors
surface. Thus making the threaded bolts achieve a deeper access to the processor surface.
Increasing the depth to heat sink's access to contact, accordingly.

What ever it takes.
Not having seen the contact area myself on my machine, I can only speculate on these
approaches. But they are sound "in principle."
First rule... Do not undermine OEM cooling effectiveness.
If this approach seems too much to handle, or you feel your measurements seem risky.
Ask for help from your machinist doing the mill work.

An effective evaluation of the contact points may reveal improper tapping of thread depths or
excess material obstructing a snugger fit for the contact zone. Removing a few thousandths of
an inch is a more realistic approach from my view than the methods expressed in the opening
remarks above.
Although...
Confirming any existing system board's mounting issues is best to know, no matter what.
As a safety measure...
Just make sure your estimated measurements for the mill work needed are incrementally
divided by half the distance of overall stopping point.
Meaning.., Mill out only half the distance to the overall depth on each mill session.
Reinstall the assembly and see the result. Remeasure the overall distance to remove and
repeat by half the distance once again.
If it needs more milling, (as it should) divide the remaining distance for cutout by half, once
more., Install the assembly and chart the progress. It might be just the fit, by now.
Otherwise, repeat the milling by half again, etc..

The desired when achieved is very rewarding... This guards against any regrets.
I know... A lot of effort reinstalling the system board just for an inexpensive machine.
For others though...
A worthy experience, every step of the way., Getting more life out of "would be" landfill.
If the worst were to occur and the heat-pipe is ruined, You still have the original to reinstall with
shims in the wings... Unless you've become aware of doing the same procedure without fail.

Replacement heat-pipes last I checked with heat-sinks are readily available and reasonably
cheap enough to experiment with.
Creating a new tolerance to contact the processors surface... priceless for some.
That would eliminate the risk of bending the system board by guessing shim thicknesses, etc.
It also provides a permanent approach to a fix.

But mostly... Overcoming a Dell production flaw. Yeah buddy! (spank)

Happy Measuring Holidays Everyone.
And good luck RenauldChine


edit-

 

That interesting... I wonder if there's a difference in GPU thicknesses in comparison to the 770m and the 1700m? Or maybe more likely, CPU thicknesses that change during the insulation process they under go during manufacturing., As I plan to use the T-9900 myself.

 

How do you guys know for sure it's an air gap or contact problem? I've repaired this problem before with heat (solder reflow). While I have everyone's attention here, are you sure an mSATA drive is supported on an M4400? I know one will physically fit but damned if I can get one recognized. Is there a compatibility list of mSATA drives that will work in these old laptops. I've tried two samples of the following:
MyDigitalSSD SuperBootDrive SATA-3 MDMS-SB series
without success.

 

Hello, yldourright.
Regarding mSATA 2. and mSATA 3 downward comparable.
I once considered an mSATA conversion via swapping out the Blue Tooth card from it's internal PCIe contention on the M4400. This, in hopes of setting it up as
"the "boot drive" and freeing up the optical drive bay for other options but I never got around to doing it. It may be as simple as above... There are others here better informed on this on to ask.
I do think it's possible what you're suggesting.. but I'm not the one to guide you through the process.
I do know Dell has a way to making it difficult like bios hangups leading to rewrites and mapping issues, here and there.... But physically, there's no reason why this can't be pursued. I hope someone else chimes in to help you.

I can also suggest sending a PM to others that contributed on this thread over the years that know this machine inside and out.
Just browse back and get a feel of our professional Alumni. There usually the quiet ones... lol.
If you just visiting or a freshly joined member., Try contacting a Mod. Their all talented in theses areas. You will need to join though if you need to PM (private message) a member, last I checked.
Good Luck, yldourright.

About your comments with re-flow...
To be honest...
I can't say "with any list of testimonies" that this "sagging surface" or "GPU gap" has been a concern for a significant many of M4400 owners., thus deeming the issue an uncommon occurrence.
Having not heard of the general complaint until member, cwazywazy, first posted his experience, found on this thread pages back... What was a surprise to me was
how many sources popped up about how to fix it.

Frankly., A proper re-flow process is a good idea. Getting a system board back into flatness provides the obvious benefits of renewed solder integrity. Glad you brought that to the table and thanks for sharing it.
My first assumption about the need for re-flowing the GPU would of lent to the idea that the GPU was no longer working at all, and had an outside chance of being resurrected, so to speak. But your suggesting this is the proper approach to a known issue like CPU/GPU contact surfaces to cooling tolerances, i. e. with system board warp with M4400.
Then., I'm sure there's reason to to be supportive over the suggestion. I, nor anyone else thus far, has had any Dell input to ad to this issue being recognized, let
alone, advice in non-warranty service. Any more you can add about the process would be appreciated.
------

My resent personal experience over this M4400 GPU subject has been as such..

I've since installed my 8gig matched ram and replaced my T-9400 out for a T-9900 CPU, completing phase one of a desired upgrade process I've mentioned in prior posts. Phase two will be simply the inclusion of the Q-9200. (preferably the unlocked CPU version.. Allowing for undervolting and overclocking)

Needles to say... Upon installing the T-9900, I inserted no shim(s) at the GPU at that time, based on no obvious indications of poor contact, etc.

Although, that doesn't mean there's no concern to speak of.
Of course...After a thorough blow-out of system components, a heat-pipe dis-assembly, which involved rebuilding the fan cage with high-pro lube and a De-greasing of all heat effected transfer areas, etc... I did some burn-in throttling with FurMark's GPU app using IDC 7 thermal paste. Amazon!

By utilizing the same paste application method seen in the instructional video above this post., It was a "bear" to apply as ICD 7 as it has a consistency of say... Cold molasses or caramel. A lot thicker compared to Arctic 5.
While Arctic 5 or higher is great., IDC 7 carries it's weight with remarkable results IF your not too annoyed with it's thickness.

Point being...
I found that the thickness issue was too my benefit, learning to apply a perfect rectangle of IDC 7 on the GPU, giving me the liberty to spread a thickness of my choosing... In this case, a 1.5 to 2.0 mm layer of ICD 7. By doing so, I can clearly determine the flashing of paste spread over the GPU. If heat concerns arose very quickly, I would be alert to shut down and inspect the cause... Looking for lack of contact or too much flashing. If one is concerned about the need for shims,
this will give you at least, a clear view of compression at the point of contact.

It's been a month since that re-pasting occurred and no major concerns other than coming to the conclusion that the GPU is poorly cooled by Dell's design spec. The CPU itself is inherently effected by that fact, and perhaps, "a real reason to modify' for the most part, adding to the challenging GPU of practical apps that don't
force the issue

I was a bit disappointed at first that the cooling stability didn't improve as much a normal repaste would provide. But further throttling during burn in revealed gains into the third hour of cycling and as IDC 7 settled in... This was all the result of using the best thermal paste in my opinion and being sure proper contact was/is made at the GPU.
The improvements continued to chart lower temp margins... Idol @ 38* Celsius. in a 72 Degree ambient.
For now with the M4400, I can conclude on one particular observation... Ambient temps are critical for HD YouTube.

 

stringbuzzzz
Thanks for the attentive reply. I will take your advice about contacting the mods From your description I can tell that you really love your M4400 at least as much as I do mine. I did use an SSD on mine (T9600) and was impressed with its performance but I missed the storage so I decided to use a smaller mSATA SSD along with the conventional drive. I tried putting it in the slot above the WWAN card and it wasn't recognized so my next thought was to use the EC slot. I've been told this is a pci-e slot so a pci-e cache card may be the solution here. I'm hoping this thread will gain some interest from some of the other members here.