*** Official Clevo P770ZM / Sager NP9772 and P770ZM-G / Sager NP9773 Owner's Lounge ***

those are metal-based TIMs though, so use with caution. i think they probably mixed things up with GC Gelid Extreme, cuz thats definitely one of the top 3, if not the very best, non-metal TIM

as for losing warranty because of repasting: u can make sure of that by asking ur reseller/vendor. it would be quite surprising though if that was the case, especially with this machine! if that were so, then ud probably also void ur warranty just by replacing the pre-installed storage drive

 

No its not gelid extreme, he showed us the tube in the shop. And then he started explaining to us that this laptop has great cooling and would'nt get too hot, so yeah...

Replacing a HD is not hard at all, but replacing the TIM requires a bit more care imho.

We also ordered one with an IPS panel and they mailed us they made a mistake and sadly it was going to be a TN panel for the same price (even though the order said IPS panel)... I didnt really mind and told them it was ok, but if they are going to act difficult I think I'm going to demand that IPS panel aswell for the price we agreed.

Anyway, im going to mail them and I'll see what they reply.

 

AS5 not only have higher thermal conductivity (9.0W/mK) but it's working temperature is also higher (130°C).
Total abuse of the customer to recommend Gelid as a better option.

 

It's TDP is 84W. It will probably reach the same temperatures of a 4790K (88W) ~100°C on full load at stock clock.

 

those 100C depend on ur paste job, ambient temps, surface where the machine stands, if the machine is propped up or not, if ure on auto fans or max fans, on ur load voltage, etc.

so no, u cannot just say its the same in every case

anyways, the 4670K will most likely run cooler than the 4790K due its lack of hyperthreading, thats basically half the load it has to stem. besides, the TDP is just a guideline for chassis/heatsink designers and also gives u the power envelope the respective cpu is allowed to use in order to reach its maximum clocks. it does not give u a guideline for temperatures!

 

Off course my comparison assumes the same environmental conditions for both CPUs.
According to Intel: "Thermal Design Power (TDP) represents the average power, in watts, the processor dissipates when operating at Base Frequency with all cores active under an Intel-defined, high-complexity workload. Refer to Datasheet for thermal solution requirements."
If you find the actual temperature of the 4670K is more than 5% lower than that of the 4790K at the same conditions I will get very surprised.

 

@CHRiTTeR Did you buy from BytesAtWork by any chance? Considering the mistaken IPS and AS5. I was planning on buying from them aswell.

 

check for yourself: http://www.anandtech.com/show/8227/devils-canyon-review-intel-core-i7-4790k-and-i5-4690k/2

with increasing clocks at same voltage, 4690K has an evermore increasing temperature advantage over the 4790K. differences being accountable to hyperthreading and 2MB less cache, thats it

 

That's a nice article. As usual Anand brings such great value to the table.
If you compare the published temperatures:

At the same conditions (4.0GHz and 1.050V) the difference of temperature is only 3%.
Even at the limit 1.3V (the 4690K didn't go further than that) of overclocking the difference is merely 8%.
No surprise at all!

 

Be careful with your "merely" and "only", that's some significant temperature differences and can be the difference between full turbo and throttling

 

was about to say, percentiles may seem insignificant but especially in a laptop pretty much every degree counts

 

Indeed. That just goes to prove that the 4670K will need the same cooling improvements needed for the 4790K -- that's what TDP means.

 

Did you install a fan speed controller application, such as SpeedFan[1]?
Maybe the following will help you tame the CPU temperature until you have a better fix:

Code:

Control Panel > Power Options > Change plan settings > Change advanced power settings > Processor power management > System cooling policy:
-On battery: Active
-Plugged in: Active

Control Panel > Power Options > Change plan settings > Change advanced power settings > Processor power management > Maximum processor state:
-On battery: 99%
-Plugged in: 99%

[1] http://www.almico.com/speedfan.php

 

Yeah, im running windows on 'power saver' mode now + turbo boost disabled and even that gives me an idle of 57-60°C (when the cores are running at 800-900MHz!).
And 95-100°C at load.

something is clearly wrong (imho)

 

I think the CPU temperature you're getting may be lowered but you may also consider to change it for another with lower TDP, such as the E3-1275L v3[1].

[1] http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/577/Intel_Core_i7_i7-4790K_vs_Intel_Xeon_E3-1275L_v3.html

 

BTW, are you using the performance BIOS? What's the version of yours?

 

How do i check that?

The Bios is pretty basic option-wise... Not much i can change expept stuff like AHCI/Raid etc...
No overclocking possibilities etc...

I'll double check to be sure.


But i think its a problem with the CPU... Been reading some on the net and Intel seems really to have done really bad QC.

I find lots of complaints about the 4790k even running insanely hot in desktops at standard clocks with non-stock (thus better) cooling.

 

Where do you find these reviews? I got the 4790 and want to check up on it lol

 

What BIOS version are you running? If you have no CPU performance options it is likely not though.

 

I'm not sure. Try entering the BIOS and look for the version number.
The performance BIOS has all options enabled -- you can change everything, including the overclocking parameters.
I don't think you have that, so if you get the right BIOS chances are you might have a problem with the IHS.
If that's the case one possible solution is to delid the CPU and change the TIM, but considering you've just bought a new PC I would consider demanding the supplier.

 

For those who don't want to risk a 4790K there's also the Pentium G3258[1]: it's a dual core, no hyper-threading, but *unlocked* with 53W TDP and some report[2] it can be OCed to 4.7GHz and sells for $70!

[1] http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/397/Intel_Core_i7_i7-4790K_vs_Intel_Pentium_Dual-Core_G3258.html
[2]

 

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose though..?

 

Not for those who can't afford to overclock an already overheated 4790K.
The G3258 has 53W TDP but have a different thermal solution specification (PCG 2013C) been almost 8°C cooler (TCASE=66.4) than the 4790K at stock settings.
For those who don't need multi-threading that much it's a bargain.
It's faster than a 4690K in many "real-world benchmarks"[1]

[1] http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pentium-g3258-b81-cheap-overclocking,3888-6.html

 

Oh alright, I don't plan to overclock my processor and only got the 4790. What temps do you think I will be looking at under full load?
Im expecting around 60-75C from what I've been reading.

 

The 4790 has 84W TDP and it's a PCG 2013D. That makes it TCASE = 72.7°C (just like the 4670K).
Considering the only review[1] that I know (assuming you have similar environmental conditions and cooling performance) my bet would be from 91.7°C to 98.2°C on full load at stock clock.

[1] http://www.notebookcheck.net/One-K73-5N-Clevo-P771ZM-Notebook-Review.135088.0.html

 

That seems like its way to high and kind of dangerous for the laptop..

Edit:
"Still, 100% load for the CPU and GPU is not a very realistic scenario even in demanding games and applications, so in practice, there should not be any clock restrictions." that makes me way less worried, as I plan to use this for gaming and coding in visual studio

 

Yeah, i use it do to 3D renderings and need all the performance/threads i can get so going lower is not an option for me.


Btw, im getting 100°C CPU when the GPU is not being stressed. While my CPU is getting cooked the GPU is only at 56-60°C.

 

It is very high! You may consider it an untamed thoroughbred.
You will have to improve the embedded cooling system and provide additional capability if you want to run the 4790K at full throttle.
I think anyone considering a CPU with TDP above 60W (assuming you want to keep a laptop like the One K73-5N with CPU temperature under 75°C) should prepare to improve the stock cooling system of the P77xZM.
Some possible options are:

1. External laptop cooler
2. Repaste of CPU TIM
   
3. Repaste of GPU TIM
   
4. Delid and repaste of CPU IHS
5. Change of the heat sink fans

Any additional ideas?

 

Got a reply from my reseller... According to him 95°C is perfectly normal for a laptop (he also mentions intel's max temp is 100°C) and he says he contacted the distributor and they confirmed this.
He also refers to a test on notebookcheck ( http://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/One/K73-5N/Screenshots/stresstest.jpg ) and mentions that the CPU will underclock itself to prevent damage... pointing out that the cpu runs at 3340MHz during the notebookcheck test...

I pointed out to him that i get 95°C even in powersaving mode with turbo boost disabled.
And an idle temperature of 60°C doesnt seem normal to me. Its not dangerous, but its a sign something aint right.

I didnt choose (and payed for) a CPU that's supposed to run @ 4.2GHz in qaudcore mode just to have run at 3340MHz... that's a massive loss of 860MHz per core (in total 4x860MHz = 3440... ironicly thats more than an extra core at those speeds). Which makes a big difference in what i do (3D rendering). If its not supposed to run at that speed then why even offer the option... I took it because K processor are supposed to be a bit more robust and normally should easily be ably to handle stock/default/factory clock speeds.
Also Intel's site says the i7 4790K's Tcase is 74,04°C... I know its not the same as core temperature, but i doubt when a cpu gets 95°C the IHS is going to be so much lower...
The net is full of ppl pointing out this CPU has many bad batches to the point even that many ppl are getting so desperate they do stuff like delidding.

He continues on by presuming i also am also maxing out the GPU at the same time in order for the CPU to reach those temps...
I told him that this is not the case. Its pure CPU rendering.

He tells me the only thing i can do i let them replace the CPU with a S or T series (and get the pricedifference refunded)... which i honnestly am not intrested in because im still convinced i have a defective CPU.
I'd rather go for a full refund and keep using my previous laptop then and buy a new desktop instead, which would turn out cheaper and more powerfull (6 core).


I still remember how he boasted about the laptop's quality and how well it cools and doesnt get hot when we went to pick it up...
Verry dissapointing experience especially after we had troubles with another CLEVO dealer (Deviltech), which we ordered a laptop at months ago but still didnt get and they dont reply to mails.

Seems to me clevo's not verry trustworthy.
Reseller is indeed Bytes at work

 

laptop cooler is not a must, important thing is to prop up the back of the machine to allow for improved airflow! also, max fans function does wonders

@CHRiTTeR: told u before, repaste, prop up machine, use max fans. also, clevo has nothing to do with this, if at all, its the reseller or vendor SELLING the clevo machines that is to blame

also, please be aware that the ZM series is not a machine thats just plug and play, it needs some "extra luv" and tinkering to unfold its true potential. the same one can say for pretty much any high-end laptop. if u just want plug-n-play happiness go with one of the standard vendors like acer / apple / etc. without any large differences in configuration

 

Sorry but if you buy something, its supposed to work as advertised.
You're telling me its my fault my laptop is not working as advertised? And its up to me to make it work when it doesnt???

I never pasted a cpu before and im not going to risk to make it worse (and potentially breaking warranty) on a brand new laptop. These things arent cheap you know.
Max cooling doesnt help.

Can you imagine yourself telling that to a judge?

Especially when i ask about cooling when we picked it up and he tells me it runs surprisingly cool for its power.

 

wow chillax *lol* were not at court here @Judge

i didnt say its your "fault", or anybody´s, for that matter. my point was that with these high-end machines, most users are aware that some additional tinkering can be necessary to get the most out of it. its like getting a super-sportscar when all uve driven before was a prius and then being afraid to change the oil when the motor is running too hot. when getting such a machine, dont be afraid to learn new stuff and dig in!

 

Again, I'd love to do it if there wasnt any risk of breaking warranty...

I doubt you'd disamble your brand new ferrari's defective engine instead of returning it for a working model.

 

your engine (= cpu) aint defective though its more like youre not willing to exchange the oil, cuz ur engine is running hot

and as i said before, why dont u ASK ur shop if there is any warranty concerns? ure talking the whole time about "risk" of breaking the warranty, but it doesnt seem like u have even informed urself what ur vendor´s stand is on this. and trust me, exchanging the thermal paste IS like changing oil, and not disassembling the engine to try and fix it urself

 

You're not supposed to exchange oil on a just new car... especially not a ferrari. And if it does (**** happens) i bet you they will immediatly fix it because they did something wrong.

I doubt its the paste, beceause when we ordered it we called them specificly to put better cooling paste on and they told us they did this.
But its possible... but then they should at least suggest taking a look at it... But instead they are acting like everything is normal and saying different things then when we payed for it.

Yes, the original paste they would've put on (AS5) would've been a better option than the one they suggested later (Gelid GD2)... but i doubt it would suddenly give a +15°C difference.
More like 1-3°C max. Unless they really messed up...

So pls tell me how you know so sure its not the CPU?

 

One way to be sure about the CPU problem is to transplant it to a different system where you can have a baseline for comparison, for example another sound 4790K performing at lower temps.
Another way is to compare the temps of yours with another P77xZM system with the same CPU. That's what I did with the reviewed One K73-5N[1].
It looks to me your CPU temperature is 3°C higher than the reviewed one.
Maybe because of the worse quality TIM and/or application of it.
Unless both 4790Ks are bad you are probably getting the "normal" temperatures of such system.
Note that not Clevo nor Intel may be blamed (in court) for such problem (overheating).
It's up to the systems integrator the responsibility to verify the compatibility of the components (4790K) with the chassis/cooling system (P77xZM).
Since there are many companies offering the same combination (P77xZM + 980M + 4790K) chances are we will see a lot of overheating complaints like yours in the future.
Where did you get the "+15°C difference" from?

[1] http://www.notebookcheck.net/One-K73-5N-Clevo-P771ZM-Notebook-Review.135088.0.html

Note: The reviewer of [1] have reported the thermal throttling of the 4790K.

 

of course i cannot be 100% certain, but based on experience the MOST common thing thats at fault in this kind of situation is a bad paste job and/or an underperforming thermal paste. just cuz they didnt use AS5 doesnt mean that GD2 is much better. as mentioned before, if it was Gelid GC Extreme, then yeah, THATS a high-end paste!
of course its POSSIBLE that uve got a warped heatsink or that the cpu itself is malfunctioning, but these cases are NOT at all common and rather the exception! and since ur vendor is not cooperating, uve got two choices: either u return ur machine and request an exchange / ur money back or u take things into ur own hand, exchange the thermal paste and see how things go from there.

all im trying to do here is give u options and potential directions in which to go to. if ure not happy with it, fine, but dont blame me for trying to help here

 

A -15°C was just a quick suggestion no real science behind it.
Keeping the Tcase of 74.04°C in mind.
Also comparing it to a non defective one in desktop runs at +- 60°C full load.

I have no equipment available to test it myself.

 

that "non-defective" cpu runs in a DESKTOP, as u said it urself. dont u think a desktop with a monster cpu cooler tower has a bit more cooling capacity than a laptop? as mentioned before, i highly doubt ur cpu is defective...

 

Your frustrations are understandable. Part of the problem, most likely, is the stock voltage. The poorer performers on intel's chip lottery use a higher stock voltage. For example, refer to the AnandTech's article posted by jaybee83 on page 13 of this thread. Refer specifically to the load voltage at stock of 1.273. Now look at the temp change by doing overclocks to 4.2 (stock equivalent for all four cores) by manually setting the voltage. The voltage is at 1.125 at that speed. The temps however have a -17 degree delta from stock. To stick with car analogies, you are not willing to change your fluids, but insist upon driving in 4th or 5th gear. This will tear up the transmission (see intel sheet on problem of constant throttle if processor has transient heat issue during C6 state, etc., available at http://www.intel.com/content/www/us...core-family-desktop-specification-update.html on page 53 (top)). The point is, down gear your processor to where it works. This is like a manual and you want an automatic. Get intel XTU and change the voltage settings. There are many guides on how to do this safely and properly (or apply OC guides in reverse). You are looking for the lowest stable voltage settings to reduce heat, which will not violate your warranty as you are not exceeding the specs of the device.

Further, I do agree with jaybee83. This is a fine machine but needs a "little love." I get mine on Monday, but need it for the bar exam and do not have time to make changes before the exam (except for lowering voltage clocking if necessary). My recommended changes (if warranty is not a concern) nearly mirror's the list above:

1) delid with CLU or CLP in TIM 1
2) change TIM 2 and GPU to Gelid GC-Extreme (GC-03)
3) Change vram thermal pads to Fujipoly ultimate/extreme (either should enhance cooling of vram)
4) manually set your voltages!!!
5) if possible, find fan to switch out stock cooling.

On the fifth point, i have seen some potential candidates, but would like to hear more from others that have done this in the past with CLEVO products to see brands and specific parts numbers to jump off from on my search. (chasing the performance pony to kill the heat dragon).

 

haha performance pony and heat dragon, i like that

 

In addition, @CHRiTTeR , if you do the math, you can underclock the processor to 4.0 GHz flat and go even lower on the voltage to get a 23 degree delta change in temp if needed. If this is ran without throttle (see page 13-14 of this thread for discussion), you would still receive more computational power than with the processor throttling or the extreme edition of the mobile haswell equivalent. Remember, they have performance marks and spec sheets that can guide on what is acceptable for not violating warranties. These are your guide for operating conditions verified by the manufacturer.

Further, if you are willing to test the chip in another computer, you should be willing to repaste as you would have to if this was performed. Write to the people who sold you your laptop and get an express waiver in writing from someone that has the authority to waive the opening of the laptop for servicing of the thermal paste. See if they apply any conditions on the waiver. Sending the laptop back for them to service is a lot of time and if it is not under warranty because the components were working to spec, you will have to pay the shipping and cost of service (not a pleasant thought). In addition, get the waiver for all future servicing of the thermal paste. If you do, you can do as I do and thoroughly clean the heatsink fins and service the TIM once a year (just good maintenance of a performance device, like an oil change).

 

Thank you! I didn't know about HSD137.
Any software that could monitor/tell when the CPU is in restricted mode?

 

To be honest, I pulled the revised sheet up this morning and found it, so I have not researched into monitoring or checking if this is applied to a specific processor (mine or yours if we check for it) yet. After I am done studying for my two day exam, I'll have plenty of time to check and post more on this and other things in this forum. It said usually a warm or cold reset will do the trick. If it doesn't, I'd imagine killing all power (including pulling cmos battery) should do the trick to reset everything to stock.

Edit: Upon further reflection, this is what happens. The condition happens if the throttling occurs while the processor is in C6 or deeper. It sets the max voltage to stock (4.0GHz) max voltage settings and won't go higher. To see if this is happening, I'd suppose you just need to watch if turboboost engages or is operating at standard turboboost speeds (4.4 on one core, 4.2 on all cores). If not, this condition is present.

This is to act like a governor or a safety feature of an engine in the event of overheating (some engines have the ability to disengage 2-4 cylinders on the engine to allow the engine to cool, but give sub-optimal performance). When the event is gone, it goes back to hitting on all cylinders. Just like a car, if the processor gets stuck in this safety state, all you have to do is either turn the car off and back on (reboot your system), or allow the car to cool and restart the engine (shut down the computer completely and allow to cool, then start the computer). My example of pulling the cmos battery is like disconnecting the battery terminal to reset the stored states for a car, a measure of last resort before diagnosing the overheating problem with the car. It will do the job, but is not the preferred method of dealing with the problem (especially with the cmos battery under the keyboard).

Finally, Intel states a work around can be programmed into the bios to permanently fix this issue. So it is dependent upon how quickly a bios update is put out by the manufacturer.

 

You guys have no clue about "perceived ease of use"
It seems as simple as pouring oil into a hole because you have done it before, but to a newbie it feels like cutting the right wire to defuse a bomb.

 

Understandable! And I agree that it is intimidating at first and that I am making an assumption of talking to people with experience of at least assembling a desktop. I do apologize for possibly sounding crass or cavalier about the process. But, at least the information is available and being presented for informed decision making. I, personally, assumed the main people purchasing this laptop have experience trying to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of their components and have a basic understanding of hardware assembly for desktops. This bias is from my building desktops since the age of 7 with my dad (early 90s).

In any case, watch some youtube videos to see whether this eases concerns. I do not recommend doing anything you are not comfortable with! But do not let a little uneasiness about the process prevent you from learning either. We must all strive to learn and better ourselves.

 

Much respect to those of you out there who have stated the opposite, but if a manufacturer puts out a product and claims that it should be hitting 4.2/4.4, then that is what it should be doing. Yeah, if you want to overclock then you should need to mod, but otherwise? No way.

Bottom line: this laptop should not be throttling under "non-stress test" and/or "non-overclocking" usage. During normal use, a purchaser should not have to apply new TIM, delid, undervolt, LN2, move to Antarctica, or do anything other than prop/use a laptop cooler.

If, as some may claim, the problem is due to a faulty CPU, then the laptop manufacturer/vendor should provide one that is not faulty. If it is the design of the laptop, then it shouldn't be sold in the first place.

But to blame the consumer? That is a totally irresponsible tack to take. Hold the manufacturer/distributor accountable, and demand that you get what you paid for.

 

@zdroj , I agree, a product should work as designed. The processor is advertised for those speeds. That is indisputable. Further, the laptop is designed to use the desktop processor and advertises using the processor. That is also not in dispute. I did not see a guarantee of getting full turboboost performance from the laptop.

Now, with this said, the heating issue can be unnerving (and a potential product's liability case if injury, etc.). It could violate express statements made that induced purchase. It also could be a case for the implied warranty of merchantability, which is fitness for the ordinary purpose. But, the laptop runs and works as a laptop. The throttling at stock may be an improper application of thermal paste (problem relating to distributor or reseller/retailer). Currently I do not see any implications for clevo on design or intel (may change after more info is gathered about the overheating issue).

Now if the CPU is faulty, i.e. not running to spec FOR A DESKTOP, then it can surely be RMA'd and the problem is solved. Throttling by itself is a part of the design of the CPU. Clevo doesn't guarantee the CPU won't throttle, because that would be foolish, but would have to guarantee the design could at least handle the CPU at throttled speeds for heat (unless otherwise dangerous). There could be issues as to heat and component lifespans (motherboard, etc.) that they may be liable for, but that is a year or so out to see if this is going to be the case.

With that being said, it isn't blaming the consumer, but explaining that these issues may be implicated and that jumping to a defective product isn't necessarily the right manner to deal with the situation as it is likely that these components are not defective but working as designed. If they are, you have no recourse and are going to have possession of a device performing as advertised. This being the case, other than delidding the processor or switching out fans, manually changing the voltages while remaining in spec and switching out thermal paste (and possibly replacing the thermal pads on the vram or adding them to m.2 SSDs) are just ways that the heat issues can be addressed while remaining within warranty to get the performance expected. Caveat emptor. Know what you are buying, the issues that are possible, and solutions. If you wanted to, you could have requested a custom price from the retailer for the mods suggested, i.e. gelid extreme thermal paste on cpu and gpu, all thermal pads be replaced with fujipoly ultimate or ultimate extreme thermal pads, and finally that the cpu voltage be adjusted and cpu clocked to prevent any thermal throttling at all. You cannot ask, nor would they perform, a delidding of the intel processor which would prevent their opportunity to RMA the processor if it is indeed defective. With that being the case, don't complain if performance does not meet expectations if it is working within the defined parameters of the components. That is your fault on due diligence, not these companies selling the product.

NONE OF THE ABOVE CONSTITUTES LEGAL ADVICE OR OPINION. IT IS GENERAL LEGAL PRINCIPLES AND PERSONAL OPINION IN AN INDIVIDUAL CAPACITY (NOT AS AN ATTORNEY OR COUNSEL) AND IS NOT CURRENTLY ANALYZING ANY SPECIFIC OR GENERAL RIGHTS OF PARTIES THAT MAY OR MAY NOT READ THE STATEMENT OR ARE IN THIS FORUM, OR HAVE STATED ISSUES SIMILAR TO THE ISSUES DISCUSSED IN THIS STATEMENT, IN WHOLE OR IN PART. SPEAK TO YOUR DISTRIBUTOR OR RETAILER DIRECTLY FOR INFORMATION ON ANY WARRANTY THAT MAY OR MAY NOT APPLY TO ANY PRODUCT. FOR AN EXPLANATION OR ANALYSIS OF YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS, PLEASE SEEK OUT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR JURISDICTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE OR OPINION OF COUNSEL

 

The 4790K is a desktop CPU. Intel made it for use with thermal solutions compliant with PCG 2013D[1].
I don't know if the P77xZM is PCG 2013D compliant but Clevo clearly states[2] that it supports the 4790K.

[1] http://ark.intel.com/products/80807
[2] http://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=763&lang=en