*** Official Clevo P770ZM / Sager NP9772 and P770ZM-G / Sager NP9773 Owner's Lounge ***

Wow. OK...so XYZ car manufacturer offers a 700HP engine that can theoretically give the car a top speed of 180MPH...but puts a governor on it that limits it to 400HP; doesn't provide adequate engine cooling; puts a tranny in it rated for 300HP; puts 10w40 oil in it when it needs 5W30; gives you dual exhausts when all they did was branch off two pipes off of one muffler; etc. But you were never told that there were design flaws/performance issues...nor would you expect them.

You get all excited! Your purchase it at a premium price with your hard-earned money! You drive it stock, expecting to get the performance that you paid for! But geez...you can't go above 140MPH; the engine overheats and blows; the tranny blows...etc.

But the XYZ fanboys are going to tell you it's your own damn fault. "Yo Buddy", they tell you, "just because XYZ offered the 700HP engine in the car didn't mean that you could expect to receive the engine's rated performance! And where did it state that the design of the associated components could support such an engine? Caveat emptor, sucker!"

Listen, I would LOVE for this laptop and it's Batman cousin to be winners! I have had high hopes for these laptops for quite some time! But from what I have read so far, these laptops are not ready for prime time. Coil whine, heat sink issues, throttling, etc. = not good. My gut feeling tells me that there are design flaws, and that they probably stem from the fact that Clevo just had to offer a desktop processor in a laptop chassis that is slimmer than many of it latest mobile processor offerings, and I believe they may have made a fatal mistake in that regard.

My blessings to all of you early adopters who purchase these laptops. I will be reading, learning, commenting...but I won't be buying just yet. I am more interested in the P770ZM for its alleged cpu capabilities than for its gpu capabilities... and it is falling far short of its representations and my realistic expectations.

 

Well yeah, you need to take care of your laptop, but shooting to 100°C immediately is ridiculous, and so is 60°C at idle, makes me think they did a poor paste job because they used another paste than they usually do.

This means that at least for rendering it should be able to use the 4.2 ghz turbo, the same review they copied the throttling from.

 

@zdroj , I get your point and I agree, those are issues and legitimate concerns. You are being an informed consumer and waiting until more info is out there before adoption. That is awesome! I was speaking generally and not to any persons specific issues with heat in my longer statement before. I was not trying to address anybodies issues specifically, but speaking in generalities. There may be legal implications and rights for any given purchaser, I did not speak to them on their rights, nor did I mention all of the potential future rights implicated for purchasers. Time will tell on those. I did not mean to offend, either.

With that said, I agree with Dragawn in his assertion something may be wrong with @CHRiTTeR's TIM. I would need to know more, but that is also just one person's experience. We will find out more about this form factor as time goes on.

As a final note, this laptop supports Broadwell desktop processors, if and when they are released and if and when a bios update is released for this motherboard. If, as been hinted, Intel focused more on decreasing heat with these processors than increasing computational power, they may be a better fit for the form factor. Time, once again, will tell. You, personally, may want to wait until then to see if this resolves many heat related issues. It should be available, if at all, second half of 2015, most likely Q3.

I hope this clarifies my statements so it does not seem like a personal attack on any specific issues, people, or the thought that I am attempting to troll. Nothing could be further from the truth. I, as with everyone else in this forum (hopefully), just want to help by giving suggestions. The most common suggestion with CHRiTTeR's laptop is improper TIM application. We all seem to generally think that a good TIM will help. Some have said (myself included) that higher quality thermal pads or delidding can aid in reducing temps. A few (especially me) have considered and stated that changing the voltage (undervolting) will reduce the heat. And finally, myself and one other has suggested seeking out laptop fan replacement to have a higher CFM or static pressure (depending on the amount this laptop requires) would address some heat issues and performance. These are mere opinions and we are trying to help. I want to apologize if I had any perceived tone in my writing. I did not mean to attack or upset anyone!

Edit:

I forgot to mention another possibility: CHRiTTeR may have just lost the Intel Haswell lottery badly. Some of the Haswell's have been reported to have extremely bad thermal performance. If you put a CPU with extremely bad thermals in a tighter form factor with worse cooling performance than a stock intel cooler, potentially, you could have throttling even with proper TIM application. I'd want the TIM changed first to rule it out before making the claim on the CPU though.

 

Please don't misunderstand me, ajc9988...I did not consider your comments to be a personal attack of any kind (I'm thicker skinned than most, believe me), or an "indictment" (since you seem to have a penchant for couching your prose in legalese...not that there's anything wrong with that! ) of anyone on this forum. It's just that I cannot side with you, or with anyone else, who appears to purport the notion that anyone who buys one of these laptops should have to "tinker" with it (to put it mildly; from what I've read so far, they will have to jump through hoops and perform handstands...and even after doing all that, still be disappointed) in order to obtain the full performance of its components.

If you read a few posts back on this forum or on the "Batman's", I've suffered through this before with Clevo (or rather, Sager), when they brought out the NP9860 Pentium IV "convection oven", which resulted in fried/broiled motherboards and video cards due to electrical and overheating issues. And I'm not trying to insinuate that such problems are specific to Clevo machines - quite frankly, I don't care who the manufacturer is, and I'm sure that other manufacturers have experienced similar problems. But what I am advocating is, quite simply, that you should get what you paid for, and if the machine cannot function as reasonably expected, then send it back and go elsewhere...and that the manufacturer should either fix these machines or pull them entirely.

If they will work as advertised with the next generation of compatible cpus, then they should be offered for sale then...not now.

 

Can you please enter the following command and upload the results?

Code:

C:\>wmic cpu > cpu.txt

 

I hear ya. And I do agree. I was pissed when my P170HM motherboard died two years after purchase! I felt, for the money paid, it shouldn't have. But one chip on the PCB itself fried (a second looked slightly melted as well). I noticed that there were even those selling the service of repairing those motherboards, as it happened frequently. It sucks and I expect more, but I haven't seen many negative comments on subsequent machines, so I am rolling the dice again. This time I researched potential issues more and feel more informed.

As to my language, I hear ya. I just have adjusted my writing to fit my job is all. At least I'm not writing like they did in the 1700s! LOL!

 

I have no problems with that! I write policies almost every day, so I know how hard it is to adjust one's prose when thrust into an everyday setting! And while some here may not appreciate your rather erudite style of communication, rest assured...others of us do (R.I.P. WFB Jr.)! PEACE OUT, HOMIE!!

 

So besides the machine from Bytes at work has anyone else received theirs yet for further testing?

 

And or suggest another comparable CPU without said issue?

 

Monday I will. I had limited funds, so I bought the following from Pro-Star:

P770ZM with
4790K CPU
970M 6GB GPU
16GB Kingston 1600MHz value ram (2x8GB)
1TB 7200RPM HDD
Intel m.2 7265ac Wifi/bluetooth
Stock thermal paste
No OS
33oW AC Power Adapter

I will be moving a 500GB HDD over to it on arrival. Should have some temps available that evening!

Edit: Forgot to mention mine is non-Sager branded. I will let you know what display comes with it tomorrow (YEAH!!!!)!

 

I should receive my P770ZM on Tuesday.
4790 CPU
970M 6GB GPU

Any opinions on this??? http://www.indigo-xtreme.com/page-baa.shtml

 

It sure is thermally conductive, but it wouldn't fill the microscopic gaps as well as fluid TIMs since it's essentially a metal sticker, which might sort of defeat the purpose of this "TIM".

 

aint the purpose of metal stickers to stress the system until that sticker melts and fills up the gaps properly? i remember the burnin at a certain temp to be absolutely necessary in order to make such pads work

 

Well, I don't know if it'll melt (fully), considering they advertised you could peel it back off, will be interesting to see a review of it compared against more tradition TIMs. If it does work good it sounds like a good easy to use alternative.

 

I found that yesterday and was wondering the same thing. While looking for information, I found no true reviews of the TIM. If you look at the old IX, problems ranged from improper melt (had to get the processor to the throttling threshold on Intel and above the throttling threshold on the AMD 8350). If it does not melt evenly, then it will not act as a good TIM.

Old reviews (pre 2011) of IX shows it to be in between CLP and Gelid Extreme or PK-1. This is obviously the old form, but performance will improve relational to this TIM and the other metal TIMs. Another problem with the old one is that people would accidentally melt the containing plastic, causing the metal to bulge where the melt occurred and making a mess that would have to be scraped/sanded off of the HS or the IHS.

I noticed they doubled the potential heat transfer, which looks good. Also, as to using a metal based TIM, the plastic around it, if it doesn't melt, prevents the TIM from pumping out and getting on other components (a bonus!)!

In any case, this would be an alternative setup to the T1-CLU, T2 & GPU - GC-Extreme:
1) TIM 1 - CLP
2)TIM 2 - Indigo XS
3)GPU - Coollaboratory's Liquid MetalPad
4)VRAM, SSDs, etc. - Fujipoly Ultimate / Extreme

The benefit of this setup is you should almost never have to take apart the setup because TIMs dried out, bled out, migrated, etc. The drawbacks: 1) You are using a lot of metal TIMs in a mobile device, 2) the metal TIMs have different phase change temps, 3) you are melting the TIMs at 180 degrees from their intended application, 4) cleanup if something goes wrong can be a PITA. I'll try to quickly address each one.

1) You are using a lot of metal TIMs in a mobile device. Many of these TIMs, once set, are there. But they do have vibration studies and the like for a reason. The two main concerns are i) that during transport, the knocking, vibrations, and movements will effect the TIMs in a negative way not commonly tested for, and ii) is that the device may be placed on it's side or edge for transport before the TIM has re-solidified. Although generally the TIMs are tested for this treatment, it isn't tested, in most cases, for mobile devices such as a laptop. But these seem to be a minor risk. This second fear is also related with my next point.

2) The metal TIMs have different phase change temps. Specifically, the Liquid MetalPad has a melting temp of about 60 Deg. C, whereas the new Indigo XS seems to have a required reflow temp of about 85-90 Deg. C. The questions are, this time, three-fold. First, what will be the effect of going 25-30 Deg. over what is needed for the metalpad to be applied? The answer, most likely nothing, but as temps go higher, I do not know if the liquid metalpad ("CLMP") will be looser or flow more than otherwise. Second, will you need to attempt to keep your temps below the lowest common denominator - the 60 deg. melting point of CLMP? I haven't worked with it much but would love to hear from someone that has whether cycling above 60 with this temp effects the likelihood that it could pump-out or the like. Finally, whether going over 60 deg. regularly (temp cycling for the phase change point) will shorten the life span? The second and third questions here most likely are answered that it is fine and made to handle the temps of these components up to the safety shut-offs of the components they are authorized to be used on.

3) They are used in a position 180 degrees compared to where normally applied. Because of this, will gravity pulling down and having the HS as the wider base cause migration beyond the edges of the components they are used on? This I do not know and would think if you are not layering up or cutting a metalpad larger than the GPU die, you should be fine. It is just a general thought/concern I had and don't have an answer to.

4) Finally, it can be a PITA to cleanup. Specifically the Coollab's products. These may require some sanding on removal. Normally, Indigo Xtreme did not unless it melted the plastic and the metal got on components.

TO BE FAIR, I HAVE NEVER USED A METAL TIM SUCH AS ANY OF THOSE DISCUSSED HERE. I DO NOT KNOW IF MY FEARS ARE JUSTIFIED OR NOT. I HAVE TRIED TO RESEARCH BUT STILL HAVE MY CONCERNS. Doesn't mean that these concerns will keep me from trying it after I get a Broadwell or Broadwell refresh processor and a 16nm gpu for this rig (2016-17). I see this as more for the person that wants to set it and forget it. These TIMs, once applied correctly, just are set and forget. If you are willing to leave the HS on while blowing the dust back into the fan to get it out, it should be given some consideration. Plus, this configuration can theoretically get you a combined 4-7 deg. C cooler.

 

Luv or no luv, 100+ degrees with disabled turbo sounds too high. I suspect bad pastejob as well.
I know you dont wanna open it up but a repaste (take pictures of stock paste) would probably help.

 

sure, once it cools down itll most probably turn solid again, thus more easy to be pulled off

 

Alot of these discussions comes down to the interpretation of this. Some expect full turbo boost non-stop, otherwise it's underperforming. Others find it acceptable with a slight throttle during heavy load to keep temps at bay.
Speaking of which, is it throttling if the cpu goes from Turbo down to stock or does it have to go below stock speed? There are different opinions regarding this as well.
Is there a correct and absolute answer? Probably not since there are so many variables at play. It can work as reasonably expected (whichever interpretation) straight out of the box but sometimes we have to alter the variables to get there, be it repaste, elevation, max fans or otherwise.

However shooting straight to 103 is no good imo. If we get to see a picture of the heatsink and die I suspect either very low coverage of paste or a massive excess amount like in Lunas description "HULK PUT BLOB, HULK SMASH!!"

 

Another possibility is a defect in the HS or the heat pipes themselves. Awhile back in another forum, I saw a guy get horrible temps due to a ding in a heat pipe. Swapped it out and smooth sailings!

 

indeed lots of possibilities. which need to be investigated. either by the vendor or the user. no other option aside from cash back

 

Thermal throttling happens when the CPU exceeds the TCC Activation Temperature. Haswell uses two methods: the first (TM2) reduces the CPU clock and voltage to reduce power consumption; the second (TM1) modulates (starts and stops) the core clocks. The later is only used when the first method is unable to reduce the processor temperature.

Therefore clock variations not caused by TM2 or TM1 are not to be considered "throttling" and is regular behaviour of Turbo Boost technology[1].

[1] http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-029908.htm

 

If you actually read my posts you know im not some total noob and actually know a thing or 2 about this. Sure im not expert but i know enough to know this isnt 'normal' behaviour nor is it healthy.
I never had to repaste a cpu before because i never needed to. My cpu's always worked as intended and i dont overclock because stability is verry important.
(well thats not true now i think of it... I had to apply the paste myself twice when assembling a custom rig and later upgrading it but never needed to repaste).

I've adjusted voltages etc already... (thanks for asking before you took your conclusions though ) it doesnt work without affecting performance (clock gets pushed more down)

And no it doesnt run cooler when turbo is turned of (as i already mentioned here i think).
INSTANTLY spikes to 100°C when i press the render button.

I've already answered your questions before and im not the only one complaining about this btw... Its a pretty well known issue if you do a quick search about it on the net.

I realise that 60°C example i mentioned early is in a desktop, thats why I added 25°C to it (thats where i get the -15°C from). I think thats verry reasonable of me.
+ The shop i bought it from told me its cooling was verry efficient and it doesnt run hot... yeah right.
When i contacted them later that i have overheating issues they suddenly act like its normal.
Thats what gets me kinda pissed.
They suggest me getting a less powerfull cpu instead... but thats not why i bought this laptop.
They should at least suggest looking at it first.

They also told me they get the laptop with the cpu already in it and thus have to disassemble it to give it a different paste job? Is this true? I thought they received the case and were the ones who had to assemble everything.


Also keep in mind this is the K series, which is supposed to be a bit higher quality because its targetted at the overclocking market.

I thought i could get some help here, but instead i get some dennying fanboys who act like they know it all but in reality...
The reason I posted here was to compare to other owner's their experience but instead i get negative comments from ppl who dont even seem to own one? (am i the only one?)

one of many discussions about it:
https://communities.intel.com/thread/54032

Well anyway, its monday... gonna try to tune a bit more. Though im pretty sure its not going to help, i've been trying all weekend already...
I'll contact them this week, probably asking for a closer look at it (yes the TIM aswell) and possibly a cpu replacement and if that doesnt help a refund.

Im not going to mess with the TIM or cooling myself because as I mentioned that opens the door to blame me for the issue.

I read ppl are getting theirs on monday (today) and tuesday, im curious to what temps they get...

Sorry but im kinda pissed off right now...
Thanks to those who replied helpfully...
To be continued.

 

Clevo may also supply the components. They may have even got it from a distributor (wholesale).
That doesn't excuse them from been bad.
All repaste jobs demand testing. Looks like that company doesn't do it.
I would have gone the refund way just because of the GC-2.

 

There are reports about faulty 4790k CPU's. Google "faulty 4790k temp"



Sent from my Nexus 5

 

Also, for those intrested.

The GeForce GTX 970m seems to perform really well...
Havent tested it much though, been occupied with the CPU...

GPU tests performed:

- Luxmark: Luxroom scores 1059, Sala scene scores 1933, Luxball scene scores 14309, peaks at 63°C
- Unigine Heaven: All maxed, stutters at some places (i think its the tessellation), peaks at 63°C
- Unigine Valley: All maxed, runs perfectly smooth, no stuttering, peaks at 63°C
- Dragon Age: Inquisition: runs smooth fully maxed (except that i disabled AA, i dont like the loss in sharpness you get from the AA), peaks at 63°C
- Furmark test1: i let it run for 10 minutes with x8 aa, dynamic background, burn-in, post-fx i got 40fps and 70°C. Stopped it because it looked like the temps werent rising anymore and the fps were stable during the entire test.
- Furmark test2: Same as test1 but with xtreme burn-in enabled. Also 70°C but at 20fps.


Everything was run fullscreen at FullHD (1920x1080px)

I also have to add, this is with tho coolers set at XTU and they are loud when things start to get hotter.

 

This totally looks like a worthy upgrade to my aging P170HM but so might get this with a i7 4790S or its Broadwell (or whatever is next) refresh.

 

@CHRiTTeR, I do apologize if I gave offense. It sounds like you have tried everything short of opening the bottom to visually inspect the components. I am coming from a P170HM that the first thing I did when that pc arrived was crack it open to switch from stock thermal paste to an upgraded thermal paste. That was the second laptop I went in to change components, etc. (The first was a crappy HP not made to really access ANY components except ram and HDD).

In any case, if you are having heat issues after lowering voltage and are hitting your head on the wall, something is wrong! It's either the cpu, the TIM, or the heat pipe that are most likely the culprit. If you don't feel comfortable with doing the paste yourself (it really is the same as doing it for a desktop except here you have to align 8 screws at the same time instead of 4), I'd RMA the product and have them take care of it or give a refund and order from elsewhere.

I will have mine this evening but won't be at home to start transferring date from an old hdd until 6 local time. But I'll try to get my temps up as soon as possible. Also, I am hoping that this is an issue specific problem rather than indicative of a product defect (so denial in hopes mine does not have similar issues).

 

Sounds indeed like a faulty 4790k as he suspected, the GPU temps are where they should be, so I sincerely doubt that it's the heatsink or the TIM since they do their job for that PU.

 

So I asked my reseller what temps were like in the machine and if I replaced the thermal paste if it would void my warranty..

"A 3rd party thermal pad provided by Clevo was used in the cpu and gpu. The warranty will be voided if you open the laptop."

This concerns me, as I will not be able to do maintanence at all...
I will let you all know my temps when I get the laptop with the "3rd party thermal pads" added. but I think I will most likely return it just due to the warranty issue.. I dont like not even being able to open my system

Opinions?

Edit: I also planned to switch out ram for 16GB and add A SSD...

Edit2: "As long as we can't find out you open the laptop, the warranty is still valid. If you damage the laptop when you open it or adding thermal compound, then we will find out and the warranty is voided."
This statement concerns me, coming from an employee from my reseller.

 

They didnt answer the temperature question?

 

I wouldn't even deal with a company like that. One of the reasons I like sager.

 

I asked: "Can you tell me the temps of the system with my specs idling and under full load?

What thermal compound is in the system currently? If I replace the thermal compound on the cpu and gpu will it void my warranty?"

Reply: "Do you mean laptop's internal temperature or room temperature? We usually tell customers to use laptops under regular room temperature. Our laptops have temperature sensor and will perform Intel step-down technology if detected temperature is too high.

A 3rd party thermal pad provided by Clevo was used in the cpu and gpu. The warranty will be voided if you open the laptop."

They said if I were to return it I would have to pay the shipping costs. Do you think if I called UPS they would send it back so I could get a refund without paying for shipping?

 

So basicly they are dodging the temperature question...

We got a reply from our reseller... Looks like they dont want try to look at the issue, try a repaste or replace the CPU... so we will be returning it for a refund soon.

 

Yes, just refuse delivery.

 

But would I get refunded? and how would I go about doing that?

 

Ah damn, shame man, I had thought they'd really be more supportive than that.

Well, just tell them you got it shipped back to them

 

Then just tell the reseller that I want a refund and the package is on its way back to them unopened?

Man I was really excited to get this notebook tomorrow. But I don't want to risk voiding the warranty and then being stuck with it if something bad happens down the road.

 

If you're in the EU and ordered from an online shop thats based in the EU then theres no problem...
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Dont know what the law in the US says, but my guess is its not that hard to find with google

 

Oh right, as in that form states you need to add that form with it, shame:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1403168186965&uri=CELEX:32011L0083#d1e265-84-1

 

I'm in the USA, the reseller said they have to receive the unit by February 27th (30 days from the day it shipped), but I would need to pay for the shipping back to them.
So if I refuse delivery they just ship it back to them free of charge, correct?
Would the tracking number I have still show the transit on the way back?

 

Except for the CPU problems the laptop really is awesome though.
I really hoped they would've at least tried to fix it but hey life goes on and i'm glad i found out early.

I hope its not a design flaw and you guys get more lucky.

 

Yeah, just gonna hope my future 4790s isn't going to behave badly, otherwise I'll grab the reviews, walk to the store and recreate the benchmarks in front of their own eyes.

 

A quick google (4790s overheating) doesnt bring up much, if anything... so I think its pretty safe unless its a design flaw in the laptop's cooling system

 

4790S is not much different than 4790K, but it'll show little bit better temps. It all depend on how good is your heatsink. Your best bet is dellidding the CPU and changing paste between IHS and silicon.

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

If you're going to the same reseller as me (which i assume you do as you told me in a message), that wont help... They will not denny the high temperatures or the throttling... they say its normal the cpu is frying @ 95-100°C and underperforming (mine was throttling to 3400Mhz and still getting those temps).
They even told me they mailed the distributor and that they also think its normal.

 

guys, chillax. if it was a design flaw, then we would have more users having problems like this. go ahead and check out htwingnuts preliminary review for example, doesnt show anywhere close to these temps, and thats with the 15incher model (thus less space/volume for heat to dissipate). also, i dont get how undervolting limits the performance@chritter?! undervolting limits the power draw and thus improves temps. if u overdo it u get stability issues, but ur performance will not be affected whatsoever.
as far as ive read thus far, u still havent even opened the back panel, let alone check ur paste job, so jumping to conclusions like defective cpu and/or design flaws is a bit premature. i totally respect that u dont want to service the machine urself, but then go and DO something about it@get a refund/rma/repaste/whatever, but just continuing to whine just doesnt help! sorry, but thats how it is

/rant mode off

ps: wont discuss this topic anymore, ive given all necessary suggestions and options that one can consider in such a situation. the rest is up to you buddy

 

Again you fail to read what is said...

I've already decided to return the machine since they wont even look at it after I suggested to them to do so.
Im not opening the lid and changing anything since i have concerns with warranty and it turns out to be righfully so since ZachZombify pointed out later his reseller told him it breaks the warranty.

I was mistaken about the undervolting... that gives me bluescreens/BSOD and reboots the machine.
Its limiting the cpu current that slows things down.

 

He already is getting a refund

*Sigh* The reason I'm not getting an Asus G750JY is to avoid this sort of ********. Atleast there don't seem to be bad 4790s units on the market. I will ask them if I'm allowed to repaste if needed though. Seems like wherever I go it'll be a risk.

 

I'm only returning mine because I can't even open it without voiding the warranty.. which is a HUGE deal breaker for me, that means I can't add my SSD, add more ram, and especially can't repaste lol. I still think I'm going to get this notebook, I was (and still am) super stoked about it, I just need to go through a reseller that won't void my warranty for a laptop that is meant to be upgradable.

 

Did you get a rebranded p77xZm or sager? Highly recommend getting it through a sager reseller.