*** Official Clevo P65xSA/SE/SG / Sager NP8650/51/52 Owner´s Lounge ***

Which might be why other OEMs have their own product name, as Sager just merely wholesales the origin Clevo units. But for Sager units sold retail by themselves, as end-user units, they have a "model-wide" licensing agreement from Microsoft. This may also be regional. I.e., Sager USA, possibly select EU region, units each have their "per-model" Windows bundle, but wholesale does not. This includes even units Sager pre-installs and ships direct to the customer, but includes the full OEM version which the customer pays for.

Keep in mind the Microsoft "model-wide" approach is only for retail sales under their specific brand-model. If Microsoft forced Sager to pay for Windows in even its wholesale, or especially its "bare bones" where another OEM-reseller adds components, that would likely be an anti-trust violation they want to avoid.

Spoiler

I.e., Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc... learned long ago, around 2000 (post-'95 DoJ decree), that all they have to do is offer a postfix on the model number (typically "N", even if not on the box or anywhere in the physical unit or electronic documentation) to sell a system without, or even with an alternative OS.

E.g., The DoJ started getting concerned when they had reports of consumers not only paying for the price when it shipped with another OS that didn't use it (OS/2 was a big one, prior to the "OS/2 for Windows" which could use the pre-installed windows for Windows support), but even paying for Windows twice when the customer had their own, separate volume agreement that wasn't classified as "Enterprise" or "Government." Lower volume end-user licensing agreements don't "reuse" of the "bundled, per-model Windows" with systems.

Since 2000, Dell, HP and IBM (now Lenovo) have long created "workstation" models of their desktops with Linux for CAM/aerospace, EDA/semiconductor and other industries, largely because of the sheer profit margins available (4-8x memory configurations over users, more/faster disks, high-end, discrete, Professional-brand GPU card(s), etc...). Most of these lines are directly based on Windows models, at least in the high volume units (there are dual socket units and other options as well, but they sell far less).

Although the Dell case is along story, because Microsoft controlled Dell's QA/integration in 2000+. I knew the people involved, first-hand, as I was in the EDA/semiconductor industry at the time (1999-2001), sync'ing with others as Intel, AMD, nVidia, ATI, Transmeta, etc... who were also about 75-90%+ Linux systems in-house.

The same goes for wholesale or alternative sale units, especially with Dell and a few others that do let their products be rebranded.

Looking the other way, from Microsoft's perspective, for the unchanged Sager model sold retail, Microsoft doesn't want every downstream reseller to get a "Sager bundled/negotiated" Windows license either. That's a price discount of 66-75%. They want end-users of small OEMs paying $100/unit, as low as $75/unit if the OEM is large enough, versus the typical, industry-wide and fixed (largely due to the '95 decree) "per-model" pricing of $25/unit (or whatever it is these days).

The only way to know for sure is to, as an end-user, to ask Sager if they will sell it without an OS at a reduced cost. If not, they likely signed the "model-wide" agreement. And even if that is the case, they may still be able to offer a "Clevo P65x" which also removes the "per-model" pricing. Of course, the cost savings might only be $25, if they can do it at all (because of the contract). If it's over $50, then it's not "per-model" licensing.

In fact, if you get the Windows OEM media, you likely paid that $75-100 from the OEM. The $25/unit "per-model" licenses almost never have the media, only a "recovery media" the OEM creates. It's part of the "legal requirements," which leaves a lot of consumers upset. This is especially the case now that those "per-model" units no longer have an external Activation Key label on the box as of Windows 8. the "recovery media" is suppose to restore with the specific key on the specific model.

Microsoft timed the removal of the label with Windows 8 well with cutting off TechNet. Because for Windows Vista and 7, one could re-install even those "per-model" OEM units with the TechNet Windows Vista and 7 media. This was a requested changed by many of us MCITPs so we could re-install Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc... "per-model" licensed units, instead of using their often destructive "recovery media." They did it for Vista and 7, as XP (and earlier) did not work, but it now seems to be removed with the lack of a label on Windows 8 systems.

Again, this is for the "per-model" licensed systems that are around $25/unit where the OEM pays for Windows for every unit. If you get a full OEM $75-100 license, you likely get that label and even the full media.

 

I have got my hands on the P650SE for two days. The experience has been awesome overall, however; there's one tiny thing that is bugging me. Even when idle, the fan noise is loud enough to be annoying, but I guess it's the price for decent cooling.

Talking about cooling, I did a little test for the temperature under different loads.

When idle, the cpu temperature is around 40 degrees Celsius; the dgpu temp is always under 40 degrees Celsius(I believe it's the igpu that's working when idle); the HDD is about 32 degrees Celsius.

When under light usage of system resource like streaming, the cpu temp increases a little bit to slightly over 40 degrees; the dgpu is still under 40 degrees(it's still igpu that's doing the work); the same thing for HDD which is at 32 degrees.

When playing games, cpu can get up to 53 degrees C; dgpu runs at 46 degrees C; HDD remains at 32 C.

I haven't been able to test it under heavy gaming for hours. I may update it later this weekend, but I believe all components won't get to 70 degrees as the cooling is really fantastic. I am quite impressed given my old macbook pro runs at 65+ degrees even when idle.


Edit: well I let the game run and went to take a shower. 20 min in, the cpu temperature jumps between 50 to 66 degrees and dgpu temp varies between 45 to 57 degrees.

 

SIAP, but is there a way to set different temp/fan speeds in the firmware-CMOS?
How about with the Clevo Windows app they include with the P65x series?

Once I get my unit, I'll see what I values I can directly tune under Linux sysfs. Intel-nVidia reference designs have been very good in documenting and submitting kernel patches to support all the standard interfaces, not just ACPI and even WMI (Windows Management Instrumentation) only stuff, for years now. Acer, Lenovo and others have also been good for non-reference designs too.

This is really great news about the design. Kinda makes me glad I waited for the P65x series to come out.

 

Thanks for the info. I'm going to place my order with XMG as soon as the 3G/4G module will be added in the configurator, that would happen in the next 2-3 days as the mysn.de guys told me via MP. Didn't even imagine that they would have such a huge backlog.

 

SOOOO freaking excited! I'm getting my P650SE today. Have to wait until after work, of course.
Thanks HTWingNut for the amazing in depth review!

 

Scan said that the Clevo engineers have confirmed 60Hz for the 4K display

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

I can confirm. I'm one of the orders stuck in the back log.

My order was placed 11th November at about 12.30am or something (basically the night of the 10th).

Originally, I was given a shipping date of the 19th when I inquired.

When that didn't happen, I inquired again and was now given a shipping date of 20th/21st. I've received no update today, so I am pretty sure I missed the ship date again.

Now they'll probably tell me my ship date is 24th/25th, which I assume I'd receive it by the 28th. If this is the case, I'm not impressed, as when I placed my order, everything I wanted was in stock according to the website.

Schenker confirms they have a LOT of preorders for this. I guess this is reassuring for me, that other people seem to agree that it's a good buy. I can only hope Schenker is testing the laptop thoroughly so that when I finally do get it, I won't have to find an obvious flaw and have to send it back.

 

anything else would have been blasphemy!

 

let us know what you think too

 

Are there no fan controls?

 

The 1080 screen is blasphemy...

 

I have been downloading a ton of games on steam all night, played some Bioshock Infinite on ultra, Dead Rising 3 on high, Borderlands 2. Everything runs fantastically.

 

I want to know the fps on high and ultra in cod aw and battlefield 4 the 2 games i want to play first.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn HTC One met Tapatalk

 

Couple questions.

1) Are there any models being sold with the higher end CPU options? Specifically I'm curious about the CPUs with Iris Pro 5200, but I can't find anyone selling the P650SE with anything but the 4710HQ.

2) Is the display user upgradable? I can't afford the $250 more for a better panel atm, but would like to upgrade from the TN 1080p panel eventually. Do the 1080p/3k/4k models all use the same connector (probably eDP)?

This laptop looks really, really nice. Desktop replacement quality specs, under 1" thick, with an affordable base price...

 

1) What the point of having a CPU that overheats, more importantly what's the point of selling a CPU that (even if the buyer knows) will overheat and then having it sent back ?
the 4710HQ works like a charm the iris pro is badly conceived.

2) YES IT IS : you can ALWAYS change the screen on a clevo laptop, mysn confirmed me that yes you can for the P650, when you select your future screen feel free to check that it is EDP 30 pin compatible, it can have 30 or 40 pins it will work as long as it's eDP (a 40pins edp port works with a 30 pins edp cable)

 

Prema has previously stated that because Clevo uses a custom cable, if you buy the system with a 1080 screen, you will not be able to upgrade it to a 4k screen.

You can, however, change from a 1080 TN to a 1080 IPS without a problem, so long as it is the slim LED form factor with an eDP connector.

 

Well all cables are custom but yes you need another one as 4k requires way more bandwidth than 1080p.

 

If I buy the laptop with the 4k screen would I be able to downgrade to 3k without issue?

 

I appreciate your warnings about Iris Pro, but I'm already very well familiar with the chip, and I would still like the option (or would like to see what resellers are charging for it).

As for the display, thanks. Upgrading to a 1080p IPS is probably good enough even though I will miss 3k/4k.

 

I got my P650SE yesterday and I have a question. I ran Shadow of Mordor for 15 minutes and got peak temps of 80 °C on the GPU and 74 °C on the CPU. Are these temps normal? It seems higher than what I would expect. The GTX 970m is at stock settings.

 

Temps depend on how the paste job has been done. Sometimes a bad factory thermal paste job can increase by 5°C your temps, believe me .

80°c / 74°c is very good also so don't worry.

 

Why would you want to? D:

 

When I get back tonight I will play some Shadow of Mordor and let you know. I was maxing out at 60 degrees celcius in far cry 3

 

Isn't Shadow of Mordor an incredibly demanding/poorly optimized game? If so, those temps aren't that shocking. Like the other person said though, might need a better paste job.

IIRC the 4k display is that same crappy Samsung pentile display that literally everyone uses. If so, there's a good chance the 3k panel is significantly better.

 

I probably won't want to. But if 4k proves to be hard on the eyes I would like to know if downgrading to a 3k display would be possible.

 

Fair enough, I guess. But if it were downgrading the Sharp 4K IGZO IPS display for anything else, I would question their sanity.

On the contrary, I do believe that increasing PPI lessens the strain on your eyes. Or are you referring to running at 100% no scaling applied where everything would be teeny tiny?

 

Yes, that.

 

I'd recommend running with 125-150% scaling in Windows at 4K. I managed to use 3K with no scaling absolutely fine, but 4K will go past the limit I think.

 

I wish that it came with a 3200x1800 screen
That would scale PERFECTLY to 1600x900 for games with no loss of quality. At 900p, the 970m will for sure run every game maxed out at 60fps

 

Go for 4K. That'll scale well with 1080p games

Besides, I've already tested 1080p scaling on a 3K display and it looked very sharp and nice, so all this non-native scaling hubbub is being blown out of proportion in my opinion.

 

Sager is a US branded company, and LPC-Digital, XoticPC, PowerNotebooks, etc all sell the same thing that Sager sells on their website. You order through one of the resellers I just listed it ships direct to you from Sager. It is not rebranded or anything else. In any case I don't care. Just to know that the the pricing at Sager includes the $80 Windows 8.1, and about $80 less for the non OS version.

 

I understand that. I guess I just cannot explain the "Microsoft decoder ring" to you.

I.e., if one is a PC manufacturer with significant volume, one can license on a "per-model" basis and pay around $25/unit for Windows. But one must pay it for every unit one ships to end-users, whether Windows is installed or not.

However ... one can sell the same thing, with a slightly different model number (internally, even if not publicly, for license tracking), as wholesale to another OEM, even "as-is," and it cannot be the same. The downstream is not entitled to the "per-model" discount, especially not if they give the option of "no OS," and the upstream manufacturer gives that option.

Understand these "per-model" contracts aren't very "public," although Microsoft charges the same price to all of them, around $25/unit. So the terms are very slight.

I.e., I've had to deal with them personally when installing 1,000+ grids of commodity, Tier-1 manufacturer, household name companies that were resold through an OEM. The $25K+ adds up quick if the per-model license isn't removed.

Lawyers do.

I was just explaining why a direct from "brand X" unit may have Windows always included ($25/unit per-model, every model sold, Windows installed or not), but a downstream OEM that just resells it "as-is," has to pay the full OEM costs ($75-100/unit, but only as Windows is pre-installed). The former would be why there's not a "no OS" option, if the end-user purchases directly from the manufacturer, and not via an OEM, even if "as-is"/same.

That's what an OEM may have to pay for Windows (typically $75-100 for Home Edit). It is still the case if Brand X's (again, very private) contract with Microsoft only dictates the price on systems purchased directly from Brand X.

I don't know if this is necessarily the case. I merely attempted to explain why "no OS" might not be an option when an end-user purchases directly from "Brand X", versus another OEM. That's all.

In fact, a good "litmus test" is if you get the Windows OEM media. If you do, then it cannot be a "per-model" license. If it's a "per-model" license, manufacturers are forbidden from including the Windows OEM media (it's illegal to redistribute under the license), and they must create a "recovery media" set (or have the user do from the system) which is tied specifically to that system.

This has long been a debated discussion in trade practices, although Microsoft (since 2000) has steered clear of raising the eyebrows of the DoJ by allowing the "same but not the same" model approach.

 

I'm curious, does Sager actually do anything to distinguish their models from the Clevo ones, other than stick their branding on it?

 

3K (2880x1620)?
Or 3.2K (3200x1800)?
And against 4K (3840x2160)?

Once you see them side-by-side, things might seem different.

If you don't mind the 2:3 upscale 3K from 1080p, then it might be better than 3.2K from 900p.
After all, 2:3 upscale 3K from 1080p would be better than a very uneven scaling 3.2K from 1080p.
If you compare those, of course, 3K would look better than 3.2K.

It's really about testing and seeing them side-by-side.

Which is why I like 4K.
Although if I had my choice between 3.2K, 3K and 2.5K, in a 15.6", I'd probably choose 2.5K.

The desktop will look good.
If the game does 2.5K, it looks awesome, better than 1080p.
And if not, there's always perfect 1:2 upscale from 720p, which will work with massive anti-aliasing.

But that's my take.

 

No. But it's the same with all Clevo resellers, afaik. CyberPowerPC, iBuyPower, XMG, etc... The latter just more heavily advertise themselves.

 

Yeah, I would loooooooove a 1440p display. I think it's at the perfect point where you can get away with no desktop scaling, run quite a few games at max settings, and drop down to 720p cleanly for the demanding games. Also, as I've said before, panel quality matters a lot. If the 4k panel is the crap tier Samsung pentile panel, then it's out of the question entirely.

Edit: Actually, anyone know if the eDP connector in the 1080p model could handle a 1440p display? I might just end up trying to find one...

 

2880x1620 on the Gigabyte P35X. 1080p looked very sharp in games. I'm yet to experience 1080p on a 4K panel so if it looks even better then I will be very happy indeed. I can't wait to try it out next month on the Sharp IGZO panel

 

1080p on 4k pentile might look funky because 4k pentile is stupid, but on a true 4k panel it'll look wonderful, exact same as if it were a 1080p panel.

 

Hey all, first time posting on these forums.

I'm looking for a new laptop, and the Sager NP8651 is at the top of my list. My current laptop is a 4.5 year old Dell Studio XPS 16, and it's time for an upgrade. I've also looked at the MSI GS60 Ghost Pro and Gigabyte P35W V3, as they both come with the 970m, but they both start at hundreds of dollars more than the Sager.

As for upgrades, I'd bump the RAM up to 12-16 GB, and I'm not sure if I should swap the HDD for a 512 GB SSD, or keep the 1 TB HDD and add a 256 GB M.2 SSD. The latter would give me more storage, obviously, but 500 GB should be enough to start with, and I could always add an M.2 SSD later if I need more space. Eliminating the HDD might cost more down the road, but it should also save some weight.

My big concern though is the screen. I would prefer a 1080p screen, since the 970m probably won't be able to handle games at 4K anyway, so the 1080p should save money and extend battery life (the 4K screens seem to have rather high power consumption). But I'm spoiled by the colors and viewing angle of the glossy edge-to-edge panel on my Dell. So if the stock panel is as bad as people say, I'm going to end up replacing it with an IPS display. So the question is, if I'm going to spend ~$100 on a replacement 1080p panel, would I be better off just spending the extra money on the Sharp 4K screen to begin with?

As for replacement panels, are there any good glossy options out there? I'm ok with matte if that's the only option, but I'm just used to glossy. In the Y50 replacement panel thread, the only glossy IPS panel seemed to be the LP156WF4, but that has a rather long response time and seems less than ideal for gaming. For matte displays, the LTN156HL01 is apparently the best option, but is almost impossible to find. All the sellers only seem to have "compatible" models. If anyone knows where one of these panels can be acquired, it would be appreciated. The best readily available panel seems to be the B156HAN01.2. Unless somebody else has another suggestion, that is probably what I would end up going with.

 

Can anyone explain to me why ambient temperatures were higher on the P651SE review from notebookcheck compared to the p35x v3 despite having more fans and a slightly larger chassis?

 

While I admit I have learnt a lot about scaling, I just think it's a bit funny people are getting excited about the prospect of running a game at 1080p on a 4k screen and how good it will look in terms of scaling. Seriously, what's there to get excited about in that scenario? If you talk to anyone buying a 4k screen, they're hardly going to tell you it's so '1080p looks better'. Just wait 1.5-2 years till a 4k screen can actually game fluidly at 4k resolution. In the interim while we wait for such efficiency to develop, just use a high quality 1080p panel.

 

People do things other than game on their laptop too. . In those situations, at the least, 4K will be brilliant.

 

Got my P650SE through XoticPC as a Sager NP8651. First impressions are that it is beautiful, professional and sturdy. Simple packaging, which is nice. 2 CD's were included. One from Clevo and one from Sager, it seems. Also, the battery came pre-charged, which was nice. I have not set it up yet, so beyond that I don't have much.

Note that there is an addendum to the manual that explains that the laptop is compatible with both 19V and 19.5V power adapters, as long as they are still 180W. This means it is compatible with MSI GT power adapters (as an example).

Concerning the Chrome trim on the back, it is not nearly as flashy as the images suggest, and I actually like it (which I was not expecting).

In the BIOS, there are SATA ports 0, 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6. I'm assuming that port 3 is for eSATA. The BIOS is quite lack luster and really simple.

On a side note, the backlit keyboard is lit during POST and in the BIOS, unlike my MSI GT70, which requires the a program to initiate it.

If anyone has questions about the SE, please let me know!

 

From a gaming perspective, what you said makes sense. But if you want a 8-bit,100% srgb, ips panel (for graphics, video and photo editing) you have no other choice but to go higher than FHD because there are no FHD panels with these properties. A few years ago there were some mobile workstations by HP that had 15.6" FHD, 10bit (!!), higher than 100% adobe rgb and matte panels, but were really expensive. If these panels were compatible with a P65xSx i´d buy one, that´s for sure. But they aren´t, so i´m going 4k ( Sharp LQ156D1JX01).

 

For those interested in using a broadband (4G) card in the future...

For laptops that were not originally configured for a broadband card, there is nothing available at the SIM slot. It's just a chunk of foam glued to the motherboard. If you want to use a broadband card, you will have to order your laptop with one.

 

How very annoying. :-(

 

Yeah, the fact is, the Sharp 4K panel absolutely thrashes the IPS 1080p panels in terms of colour reproduction, contrast ratio and black levels. It's 8bit while the AUO IPS 1080p panel is only 6bit. That's why I'm going for the Sharp 4K.

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

Are all the 4k systems Sharp panels?

 

For anyone interested, the drive caddy for SSD and HDD is pretty shock resistant. It is mounted to the frame with rubber bushings, so it should reduce G-forces during a drop.

 

No, some are Samsung, which are inferior to Sharp.