** 1070 laptop: "bd prochot" causing cpu throttling to 800MHz and stuttering **

The older Alienware's didn't turned off by itself like the newer AW models. I'm quite sure bro Fox prefer to use the correct way... Click Shut Down

 

Anyone know how works this feature of "Thermal Monitor"? This have a relation with Tjmax? Motherboard have a bad sensor?

 

Disabling or enabling "Thermal monitor" makes absolutely ZERO difference on a GT73VR. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
Same as disabling "PECI", which is supposed to prevent the CPU from communicating with the EC. But doesn't. There's no difference at all.
Wonder if it does anything on a Clevo.

 

Strange, i never got a single BD Prochot since i disable that....

 

@Falkentyne

With power AC off, i can play at 3.4GHz also and without any BD Prochot...this "thermal monitor" was a good find anyways i have a huge fps drop in battery, but frequency always on top.

 

That's a nice find, great work horus.

I'd love to see how ac origins runs with thermal monitor turned off, anyways, you needed an unlocked bios to do that and msi says if you do so, you loose warranty, cross your fingers somebody from msi, don't read your post, because this thread is shared on zwame forum, as you know, and can be read by msi employees, delete your posts is my advice my friend.

Seems like this bd prochot issue, is not an "issue" or "defective" hardware, this laptop was designed to throttle when pushed to the limits, and thats it, it is the way it was designed or created for, msi will not fix this, and will not say what exacly causes this, it will damage their reputation if they do so.

I just hope they do whats right, and give you all the money you paid back or a new product, no questions asked.

 

You can flash stock Bios again, so np about that.

Also if msi decide to not solve the problem, disable bd-prochot or thermal monitor fix my issue, so no big deal

 

@Mr. Fox @Falkentyne @Papusan

What is better, cpu voltage offset for undervolt or VR voltage limit? Can i use both?

 

You can use both, but they serve two different purposes. If you set the VR voltage limit too low the system will become unstable. There are circumstances when voltage needs to be elevated and if the limit is set below that it will cause problems like a BSOD or random OS freezes. It is a limit, so maxing out the VR voltage limit will not increase the voltage delivery, it is only the raising the limit on maximum voltage available. For what I assume you are trying to accomplish, which would be lowering temperatures, you will want to lower the real-time CPU voltage delivery amount using a negative offset or a manual override with static voltage.

 

Should i use Adaptive or Override? This kind of undervolt also works when the turbo is off(800MHz)?

 

I prefer using Override (static) voltage. Offset works OK. To use Override you will need to study your load voltage with a benchmark like Cinebench (see what it is under load with HWiNFO64 or ThrottleStop) to establish a starting point before you switch from Offset to Override. Bear in mind the amount entered does not have a decimal point, so 1.200V would be entered as 1200 (mV). Once you have the starting point, set the override voltage and run Cinebench to see if it is stable. Adjust the override voltage up or down as necessary.

 

Yeah, but he has a 7700HQ.

 

Mr Fox is using a Clevo, so I don't know if the same things apply, with the MSI cancer BS removed.
Your MSI cancerbook has VID BOOST, which will boost the "apparent" voltage by a factor based on resistance in Ohms (reference value is about 2.1 mOhms or = 0.0021 Ohms).
Instead of undervolting, remove the undervolt completely, set the offset back to 0, then change Core IA AC DC Loadline to 1 and 1 in CPU power and performance, CPU VR settings.

This will do the exact same thing except stop you from risking BSOD at idle. If you can load windows like this, usually you will be stable.

The CPU's default VID is programmed in each step, up to the maximum turbo limit. This is not an 'overvolt' by intel, but is actually calibrated for what the chip thinks is needed for stability. The "overvolt" is the IA AC DC setting, which raises the internal voltage (VID request) at full load, raising it MORE than it would be at idle. Unfortunately, on MSI jokebooks, the VID shown in Throttlestop, HWinfo64, CPU ID monitor becomes *MORE* and MORE inaccurate the higher the IA AC DC value is set to. I tried a value of 400 to mess around this morning (4 mOhms), with a cpu voltage of 1.0v (1000mv). CPU was reporting 1.08v during non AVX prime95 (AVX and FMA3 disabled), and AVX prime95 just shut the VRM's down due to overload protection. Because 4 mOhms is 0.004 Ohms, multiply by an ESTIMATED 80 amps, that 0.004 * 80= 322mv VID boost at 80 amps of load. That means even though the cpu voltage was set to 1.00v in Bios, VID boost was pouring 1.32v into the CPU at full load, and FMA3 prime95 said "nope. this is a MSI vomitbook. you lose, kiddo" (laptop shuts off).

If you don't understand this, sorry. Just set IA AC DC loadline to 1, remove the undervolt, then test your laptop.

 

But not for much time.

 

adaptive is best for the HQ. Mr Fox was referring to overclockable cpus and also he doesn't care for battery life and such things. Override will keep the voltage static, so even though the clocks speeds will still downclock if on balanced mode, the voltage won't drop accordingly.
There is the issue that falkentyne pointed out for MSI Bios, where the voltage is not reported correctly, so sometimes the voltage offset is just correcting this overvoltage due to the IA AC DC setting on auto. By setting it to 1, it will reduce this effect and basically the same as a big undervolt with it on auto. If stable at 1, then undervolt with adaptive offset until stable, but this offset might be much less than when the setting was on auto. I think this is what he meant.

 

Well, i put 1 on Bios and is stable but i get better temps with undervolt at 140mv adaptive.

 

Keep on 1 and now undervolt with adaptive offset.

Enviado de meu Pixel 2 usando Tapatalk

 

BSOD outside windows and reload me to section recovery in Bios.

 

You can't undervolt and use IA AC DC loadline=1.
You will be going BELOW the CPU's programmed default VID and crash and burn like Tom Cruise.

IA AC DC Loadline=1 with no undervolt at all and adaptive voltage uses the CPU's preprogrammed stable VID.

 

But with value 1 i have much more voltage with 4 cores.

 

That's because the VID is not the actual voltage. Notice in HWinfo64 it says CPU VID and not core voltage?

Also, the higher the IA AC DC Loadline setting, the *LOWER* the VID is, compared to the TRUE voltage (this can only be tested by looking at temps and power draw. But you are limited to 45W, so you can't test this easily. I already tested this:

4.1 ghz + 0.950v static core voltage + IA AC DC loadline=400 (4 mOhms) in Bios:
laptop turns off in Prime95 small FFT with FMA3 enabled....yes.....TURNS OFF.

VID is only shown as 1.07v when this happens. But the real voltage is above 1.3v..........

 

I see, my Evga bios doesn't behave the same, sorry for the wrong info.

Enviado de meu Pixel 2 usando Tapatalk

 

THIS!!

Higher voltage... Higher temp!!

No point in fiddle with IA AC DC loadline, if the results being worse (Locked down chips)!!

 

YES!!
Only need to change IA AC DC loadline when overclocking, to bypass MSI VID BOOST and CPU CURRENT TRIP BECAUSE OF up to 200mv VID BOOST at high amps! (usually this VID boost is lower, about 150mv or so at this setting)

2.10 mOhms=intel reference value, Z270, Z370, kabylake, coffee lake:
AMPS * OHMS=voltage of some sort.

2.10 mOhms= 0.0021 Ohms.
If CPU requesting 80 amps of current (complicated stuff. so this is very inaccurate, frequency and temps and other stuff matter too):

80 * 0.0021 = 0.168v, 168mv of VID BOOST added to your CPU at 80 amps of load
To overclock unlocked BGA chips on MSI's cancer firmware you need to disable this VID boost so it becomes 80 * 0.00001 = 008mv instead so you dont 'trip' the EC and shut off your laptop.

locked down chips cant trip anything!!!

 

@heliada

The laptop of @streetunder arrived on day 19, is still there on center...they are aware about bd-prochot issue but MSI Portugal told me that the the pc is still under observation...they know that the problem happens in some games ... not at all.

Funny thing is that im playing AC:Origins(37 hours) and i not got any downclock...however still happens in Mafia 3.

 

Ok guys, so im back with news.

MSI couldnt fix bd prochot, they are going to give me the money back, this is what msi engineers have to say:

“I can duplicate the CPU clock throttling to 800MHz but I must overclock in Turbo mode (over 50-100MHz for GPU; but the customer mentioned that he didn’t overclock), we consider the CPU's power might be cut when GPU is overcolocked to a peak point (maybe over 1800MHz) and the game get stutter when CPU goes to 800Mhz (when it happens, it hold less then one second)"



So thats it, MSI told me they still are going to try to find out what causes this...

Now, i need to think in what im going to do, i really dont know, does the new laptops with 6 core cpu works better then previous 7700HQ line?

Thats the question...

As for @heliada, she is in the second RMA right now, still no solution by msi yet.

Cheers and thank you all for the help provided, @Falkentyne @Papusan !!

P.S

If are reading this, and you have any problems regarding bd prochot with your laptop, contact MSI.

 

@streetunder_ Thats' the problem. No one knows how the new cpu's work, because no end user has one! All we KNOW is that they are "faster."

And the reason MSI doesn't know, is because you didn't speak to the person who programmed the EC!
Only the engineers at MSI Taiwan HQ know why this happens. A regular engineer won't know.

 

Hello my friend,

Well, the laptop went to Poland MSI HQ for this reason only, they must have some workers with knowledge, but, if msi taiwan hq knows about something, why they dont try to contact them for example?

Anyway, i really dont care at all, all i wanted is the money back, i dont want to think about this bd prochot problem anymore, is their problem now!

Regarding the new laptops with 6 cores, im tempted really, but after all these issues i had, im scared to buy another gaming laptop from MSI...

I need to think about this carefully...

Again, thank you so much @Falkentyne and others, its been a pleasure...i dont know if i will buy a gaming laptop again, so this is goodbye.

Cheers

 

You made the right decision. The only laptops worth buying are the ones with Prema Bios and LGA cpu's, without any throttling or BD or current limit or power shutoff issues. Everything else is best with desktops.

 

Got it, i will keep that in mind, my friend

@heliada is going to build a PC and @Pedro69 is thinking on a laptop with
7820HK/8750H/8850H.

 

Im just waiting a response from MSI, but i want see reviews from expert users, unlock Bios on this new laptops for example....
One thing i have sure, NOT will buy again locked cpus...

 

Hey guys,

I know this is a bit off-topic,

But can you guys give me some tips, im thinking in build a PC, what do you guys recommend me?

I was thinking :

8700k or 2700X CPU (6 cores vs 8 cores)
1080 GTX (whats the best one?)
DDR4 3200mhz (is worth it to go up?)

Dont know what PSU / Motherboard to choose...also case...

@Falkentyne

 

EDIT: Issue is still there. Very strange.

The Lenovo 720s with an i5 7300HQ and GTX 1050 ti MaxQ was having this problem too. Throttling from 3.1ghz to 2.5-2.6 after a min or so under load. I have never seen this in all of my laptop testing.

ThrottleStop had its BD PROCHOT box ticked by default and I unchecked this and all seems well. More testing to come of course.

By why is this even a thing and did my solution actually fix the issue?

 

Oh ****, you are the "Bob of all trades" from youtube right? I love your videos and your voice

 

@B0B Well the bd prochot activates when the system is trying to pull excessive power/voltage, motherboard is overheating, or other chips are overheating (maybe overheating ram could cause it too). Severely overheating cpu could cause it too according to what msi told me. Sometimes it happens when some sensors on motherboard are faulty or bios limits for voltage/power are set wrong.
Im my case this problem was rather excessive and even unchecking bd prochot did not solve the throttling on my msi gt72vr 6re. MSI could (after 3 months of me giving them lots of info) finally replicate it as first they tried to limit the gpu's voltage by debug vbios (that lowers total system voltage and power draw -> avoids motherboard freaking out) but ofc I did not like that as a "solution" and it took me some time to convince them. Thus my problem was clearly connected to power/voltage problems but I do not know for sure as I chose not to get the laptop repaired.

But as you can see bd prochot (bi-directional processor hot) can be caused by multiple things so it is difficult to say why the lenovo has it. But tbh, throttling to base clock is not that bad, my laptop throttled all the way to 800MHz causing severe stuttering in games. ^^

 

Thanks Helida!

I’ve tested two of these. The first one did NOT require anything for stability except an undervolt on the cpu and gpu to maintain a proper gpu clock speed. We’re power limited with a 90w brick.

That particular unit had a 7700hq, 1050 ti maxQ, dual channel ddr4, 4k touch and a single nvme.

This unit is the same but with a 7300hq and a 1080p no touch display. Technically there’s a little less power needed here but minor.

With that said it was the i5 unit that was throttling to 2500mhz after about 60 seconds cpu intense loads for gaming or stress testing.

That was with TS or XTU. Without those it was instant rather than a 60 sec delay.

Unchecked the BD PROCHOT box seems to be my “solution” but I’m not convinced.

Thanks for your thorough post!

Temps are a ways off from max. Cpu and gpu under 80c.

 

Spoke too soon! Throttles back to the 2500-2600Mhz lol. Crazy stuff. If there's no solution this has to go.

Very interesting

 

Testing and researching with my past and current versions of this Lenovo 720s GTX 1050 ti MaxQ as well as contacting others with the same laptop are complete.

It turns out this this is the way this laptop is. It went unnoticed when I was testing these with their i7. The additional threads kept the GPU at 99% utilization. It wasn't till the i5 was tested where the bottleneck was apparent.

Obviously the i5 4c/4t is a little long in the tooth, but when this was at 3.1mhz all core it was great in nearly every title. It wasn't till the frequency drop that a performance drop was clear (in titles like BF1 multiplayer for example).

(The question)
Has a larger PSU ever been a solution for a situation like this? The stock 90w brick is clearly too small as I had to UV both GPU and CPU just to keep the GPU clocks from throttling back to 1152mhz.

For fun I have a factory Lenovo replacement on its way, but it's 170w. Can't hurt to try. Although even if this does work, recommending this laptop with the understanding that a larger PSU should be considered it a little hard to justify.

Your thoughts?

 

@B0B my thoughts are that such throttling is totally unnecessary. I guess what happens is that when the gpu is bottlenecked, it is allowed to operate at higher voltage since it does not power throttle, which leads to too much voltage being pulled by the system which the motherboard detects and goes into freak-out mode causing the cpu to throttle severely. Totally pointless.
And also weird since there are no reports of problems like this with the 900 series GPU's that were actually MORE power hungry. From my understanding laptops that work accordingly without bd prochot use hybrid power (draw also from battery when gaming) - such as the MSI gt72s series. @Falkentyne said that the gt73vr and gt72vr should show the same behavior, but for some reason the gt72vr that I owned, @Pedro69 and @streetunder owned simply do not ever draw from battery, miss the relevant entries in EC firmware and ALL of them have bd prochot problem. Undervolting GPU severely helped avoid the problem for us (at 0.881V or lower). As we all know increasing power limits/voltage increases performance so decreasing them surely lowers it, even if a little bit.
Seems like someone messed something up as obviously when the laptop is made to compensate with battery and does not, then the motherboard would freak out due to too much voltage/power being drawn.
Not acceptable imho. especially in our case when the CPU throttled all the way to 800MHz. Today there may only be around 3 games that cause this behavior, but as the hardware becomes outdated and all new games use more than just 2 cores, then all or majority of new games will cause severe throttling and be unplayable despite the hardware being still capable to play the games on paper.
I think personally that bigger power adapters are not too expensive in comparison to the slightly smaller ones and voltage regulators etc rated for higher voltage also will not make a hole into anyone's wallet.
And disregarding all I said, there should be no game that is unplayable on 2000+ euro machine with i7 6820HK and gtx1070 out of the box. Or after all updating everything. Or even both... It's no good for me and I would rather not invest in such a laptop were I to know that beforehand. I swear, assassin's creed origins was totally unplayable for me with all the throttling and frame drops to single digits every few seconds.

 

@B0B Hello there again. I just realized you reviewed a gt73vr 6re (same config as my gt72vr laptop aside from motherboard: 6820HK, gtx 1070 and 230W power brick) some time ago! Did you notice any cpu throttling on that one at all? Battery drain while gaming? Considering it comes with the same power brick and major components it should behave the same, unless my motherboard was faulty (the only difference).
Was the gpu on that one overclocked though? I see the clocks go beyond 1645MHz but it could have still had the .8A vbios installed from previous owner if you overclocked it (max 0.881V and 1645MHz without overclock).

 

I had no issues with that unit whatsoever actually.

 

@B0B well that means that whatever caused the bd prochot on my laptop it was not by design at all. Probably faulty motherboard then as I thought the entire time.
Thank you ^^

 

That was the best laptop I have ever owned. 120hz and the 1070 would scale so well with FPS when I dialed back settings further pushing the CPU. 4ghz at auto voltage and delivered an amazing experience.

 

@ heliada

Dont know if you remember but my problem was fixed if i disable BD-Prochot on Bios, even with gpu on +1900Mhz the mafia 3 dont show the problem at all....

 

@Pedro69 yeah and disabling it in throttlestop helped too if I remember. Not for my laptop, it had the problem exaggerated and nothing but severe undervolting helped. Even then I had some microstutters in game so yeah... I wasn't happy with it ^^

 

Well, what i have in my laptop is 140mv undervolt, 1.5 mm thermal pad compound of Artic, and Bd-Prochot disable on Bios...recently i sand my hs and improve my temps also.

 

@Pedro69 I tried undervolting a bit too but the skylake chip would not undervolt that well even on stock (not bad luck, all reviewers report the same). It just needs more volts for the same frequency. And then if I ever wanted to overclock it would not even be possible to undervolt much at all (as it was unlocked). And why did I buy the laptop? Cause it was unlocked cpu.
Anyway even with -60 undervolt it would throw bd prochot and after disabling it, it still throttled to 2.6GHz (base clock). When also undervolting gpu to 0.85V then bd prochot and throttling stopped, but the gameplay was not as smooth as before (what I call microstuttering). I could not make it run as I would like. And temps were not a problem, mb was at 50 degrees when gaming, cpu and gpu could be kept at around 60 under full load with manually setting fan at 80%. Thermally it was probably the most perfect laptop ever made by anyone as this was on stock paste, stock everything.
So yeah, I am happy you can make your laptop run well. I could not, that is why I said my problem was very exaggerated. MSI is dealing with it, they were actually very helpful - but that might be different in other countries for all I know.

 

Hello everyone ( @Falkentyne, @Pedro69, @streetunder_ , @B0B,....)! Me and MSI reached a final resolve for my bd prochot problem. Keep in mind this is my individual situation and yours may be different. Also this was in the Netherlands and other countries may have other policies for warranty claims.
My laptop was in repair for 3rd time, I missed it for 3 months in a row now, gave them plenty of info about the problem and took many days/weeks trying to educate myself on the whole thing - thank you @Falkentyne! Also I purchased extended warranty when I bought the gt72vr giving me 3 years and 3 months of warranty in total (plus some vague extra services that differ per country and are not explained anywhere - but it says that on the warranty card). All of these factors together and the fact that they did not have a simple fix for the problem YET resulted in 2 offers from msi:
1. repair + 6 months warranty extension on my gt72vr 6re (i7-6820HK, gtx1070, 512GB SSD, full HD 120Hz TN screen, 16GB RAM,...)
OR
2. exchange for a new laptop: GT75 8RG (i7-8750H, gtx1080, 2x256GB SSD, full HD 120 TN screen, 16GB RAM,....)

I think it is clear which choice I made seeing I would have my current warranty (still more than 2 years) transfered onto the new laptop.
So I heard that Wednesday 2nd May, the GT75 8RG was sent and I will be most likely receiving it next week. I will be making a full test and review of the thing but I cannot imagine a scenario where it would perform lower than what I had expected of my gt72vr. So yeah, I will be happy as long as it works!
Thank you all for your help and bearing with me for the whole time.
Cya in the gt75 thread!

 

Well, im with doublts..worth a laptop with 8850H and gtx1070 or 8750H with gtx1080?

 

@Pedro69 there is nothing to doubt, 99% msi will not offer you what they offered me. I had the highest spec gt72vr ever made as well (with the 6820HK) and that does not apply to you either. Also you are not in the Netherlands ^^ More likely they will repair it (if they already figured it out) or you will get money back as street since you guys are from the same country as far as I know. Right?
And the gt75 models are a lot more expensive anyway so even if you get money back you will have to pay extra. I just recommend sending it off and seeing what they say, if you get money back just build a PC like street. He seems happy with its performance and how quiet it is and tbh I would be too as you can get a nice 1080 + i7-8700k pc for 1700 euro without peripherals. Still more powerful than the gt75. Street chose g-sync screen to go with it and some ssd's etc which made it around 2.4k or more if I remember correctly from his partpicker list. Still cheaper or on the same level as gt75 with a 1070.

PS. but if the undervolt works for you I would honestly just live with it? Also you said you sanded the hs: that might have voided your warranty already.