Foam dam barriers for Liquid Metal safety insurance guide.

Wouldn't another option be to put a small bead of thermal paste like IC Diamond around the chip as a dam?

 

You would need quite a lot of it to fill gap which would make it expensive. Also over time it would dry out.

 

thats why k5 pro is the best for this puropse, as this paste is used as a replacment for thermalpads

 

While I have played with LM on desktops for years, I’m looking at my first repaste of a laptop that has a brain too big for its britches...

I’ve looked over all the great info here and plan to employ a dam of some sort. I do have some highly compressible foam I can use but the porosity has me a bit concerned as to its ability to contain the LM.

I wonder has anyone considered a square cutout of a highly compressible 0.5mm thermal pad as a barrier? I was thinking something like:

https://www.amazon.com/Arctic-4237-Efficient-Conductivity-Handling/dp/B00UYTTLI4

If cut only 1-2mm wide and only large enough to fit around the CPU die with 1-2mm gap, this might be compressible to 0.2 to 0.3mm pretty easily, though not as easily as open cell foam discussed here. If you think about it, the heat sink assembly is responsible for compressing a much larger area of thermal pads, granted outside of the CPU and GPU mounting screws. This would also serve the purpose of limiting oxygen exposure to the CPU-LM-heatsink interface, limiting corrosion if LM is susceptible to oxidation.

Just some thoughts...

 

I think you could do a mock try. Use normal paste with thermal pads as the barrier, test temps before and after to see if your getting the same heat sink pressure...

If I were to use that method, I would have at least one pad overhang the heat sink. (enough to grab with fingers or tweezers). That way you could give it a light tug to make sure it has enough pressure to work as a barrier, or if it's just loosely moving around.

 

Good suggestions. Laptop arrives next week so we will see what baseline is and then go from there. I did order the arctic cooling pads linked above, as well as Gelid GC Extreme thermal pads, which are apparently being shipped from the UK. Who knows when they will get here.

 

interesting! i had no idea Gelid offered thermal pads, nice! up to 3 mm thickness available and 12 W/mK thermal conductivity, sounds pretty sweet

 

This won't work as well as you might think. The BGA silicon is only 0.2mm above the housing (or substrate whatever it's called). It's going to add resistance to heatsink pressure and -any- resistance added is bad on laptops. May want to do a temp test without the pads then with, to see if you have bad results first.

 

Will this work?
https://www.amazon.ca/F1524-Conditi...rds=open+foam&qid=1553985372&s=gateway&sr=8-7

 

Looks good to me!
Might try to find a package of this stuff for myself from the US store. Nice find.
*Edit* Found this stuff for $3.77

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002GKC2US/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

That looks pretty similar to what I used. I still had to slice my foam in half, which took a few tries. Used double edged razor blades and sawed them slowly.

 

Nice find and looks good for me as well.

 

Can confirm after opening the package
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002GKC2US/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
works perfectly and is just the right thickness.

 

Are you sure about thickness? It is 1/4" = 6.35 mm

In first post you wrote that 3mm is too much

 

This depends on the denseness of the foam you buy.
This foam isn't dense at all so the thickness is fine.
The denser the foam, the less thick it has to be.
You don't want resistance on your heatsink pressure.

 

Thank you for clarification

I bought this one and it seems to be ok without trimming, it is 2,5mm

https://www.tme.eu/pl/en/details/fe120fi45/filters-and-inserts/tqsolution/#


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However temps only dropped a little on lenovo e580

 

Would you use LM on a laptop that moves twice at day,everyday?

 

depends on the heatsink fit, kind of movement, LM application, measures taken against potential spills....

 

I wouldn't, the more I used LM and understood it the less I liked it and eventually decided that if the stock Shin-Etsu doesn't work well enough and the heatsink doesn't supply enough even pressure to use a PGS pad you should buy something else. All LM does is mask a fundamental engineering problem that eventually will lead to some kind of catastrophic failure when the LM shifts or dries. It's not a matter of IF it's a question of WHEN.

 

I still have some Kryonaut lying around. Is it possible for me to use Kryonaut paste as the dam? Was thinking of applying it around the die on top of kapton tape. Wondering whether this will seal it completely from any air or whatsoever.

EDIT: ordered K5-pro since i noticed that K5 pro is a lot thicker and hopefully its gonna provide some nice seal

 

This is what I'm debating using. Do you have any pics?

 

Sorry I' don't have but for easy application put the K5 pro in a empty thermal paste tube/container.

 

any updates here about LM safety? Still you suggest foam dam barriers for Liquid Metal safety insurance? or better use K5 pro?

If somebody made it with K5 pro... pease shere tips, photos thanks

 

Yes I still recommend foam dams and I have never used K5 Pro.

 

do you think that foam dams are better then such way..?

 

Thick paste works very well, yes. It can just be messy if you didn't apply the LM perfectly and you need to remount, then you have to clean the thermal compound and stuff.
If your heatsink has terrible mounting pressure, paste may be better, since otherwise you would have to trim down the foam dam to about 2mm width for bad heatsinks.

 

Would you recommend this for applying LM to a MSI GE65?

 

You can also buy this at Walmart for $0.96. Amazon has a huge markup btw. I'm currently, going to try it out with a liquid metal repaste on my GS66. It looks fine. Its made from polyurethane foam

Typical Values. In general, polyurethane can be used in the temperature range of -62°C to 93°C (-80°F to 200°F). Special formulations can extend polyurethane's performance reach to as high as 150°C (300°F).

Since the foam is only around the die and not touching the die itself it won't get close to the 93 C low upper bound on max operating temps. So it should be fine from that perspective.

 

Great guide brother @Falkentyne

 

I found the right material it vanishes between my fingers and is nearly see through. It's height is that of two stacked dimes or a regular sd card. I was thinking of using nail polish and foam, but reading OP's comments I believe tape and foam are best for my copper tong fang heatsink. I have 3M 88 which I believe would pair perfectly with the thinner dam. What's your take? I'm in NA so I could probably source the recommended products at Lowes/HD if need be. Could you also let me know why most people only LM the cpu and not the cpu and gpu?
33+ .007" 0.1778mm
88 0.0085" 0.2159mm

 

3M 33+ = https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company...l-Tape-Super-33-/?N=5002385+3290583784&rt=rud

 

Thank you Donald, you were absolutely right. 3M 88 is just too thick, 3M 33+ is significantly thinner. I also opted to find the dam recommended here, and scored @ walmart for only 10 cents. Unfortunately it was too thick coupled with the 3M tape. My laptop hit 100C on boot up. Upon inspection the foam soaked the nail polish in a spot and melted on the heat sink. I used nail polish to stick the foam to the 3M.

The stuff I had is actually better for LM application. It’s the same exact material as the duck brand ac filter, just shrunk down 10x. This makes it easier to cut (no tearing on thin edges), it makes mounting easier (it is a shorter starting height), it compresses down a bit more, this might be a con: the springy property is a bit more (feels more like a foam when compressed). It was a challenge regardless to cut a piece for the gpu, because the gap had to be big enough for the die and all it’s chip components (resistors).

2nd run I used the mini filter material idle temps @29C no fans. But when they turned on they were louder and ran longer. 3rd run I inspected everything and decided to add a bit more LM on cpu. So now a pooled dot is visible on the middle of the die. I’m a bit confused on if the desired results have been achieved. GPU temps were usually in the 70’s and now they are in the high 50’s. I don’t know whats going on with the cpu. My concern is that the fans are definitely running more often even in battery mode with passive cooling. Though the PKG PWR is much higher and fluctuating more than usual, so I don’t know if it is cooling related. In aida64 I can push the 9750H to 70W at ~4GHz max fan speed and not thermal throttle in the mid 70’s. But that’s with turbo fan speed, it throttles even @ tdp 45W with stock fan curve still. I do have some timespy scores to compare, aida64 extreme (not sure what to test), hwinfo confirmed even core temps).

 

My core 0 temps and clocks tend to be 10degrees c higher when stressed. At idle or normal tasks temps are even. I’m guessing this is why I have good temps but more fan noise, the one core is triggering the fans.
*******Edit: This looks to be a normal occurrence. In game my temps are all more than 10C-15C lower despite OC, and applying 15W more TPL.

 

@Falkentyne wanted to get your thoughts on this since you're the liquid metal guru.

With a new copper heatsink, when using 1500 grit sandpaper (is 1000 grit or 2000 grit okay as well?) to roughen up the surface before spreading LM on it, should I use a straight or circular motion?

Also, should I still sand copper that has already fully absorbed as much gallium as it could, prior to reapplying LM?

Thanks.

 

Doesn't really matter what method you do. 1500-2500 grit is fine.
And I don't know the answer to your second question.
I like to just wipe it around bored for about 10 minutes, then apply a new layer after 10 minutes (without wiping off what you already spread) so you're basically stacking two layers, a new one on top of the worked in one.

Or you can do the 200C bake if you're doing a delidded IHS (after sanding first, then applying LM), then you don't have to spread it around for 10 minutes. Just spread it then bake it at 100C (212F) for 30 minutes like @Papusan said (Or was it 1 hour ? Or 2 hours? I forgot), then take it out the oven, let it cool, clean any leftover LM off, leave the silver behind (do not sand) and reapply a new layer, spread and mount.

I don't think baking heatsinks is safe though.

 

Thanks, buddy. I have a 4.3mm BartX bare copper IHS and i7-8086K coming in, so I’ll do the @Papusan oven trick on that IHS. I’ll use your pro tip on the heatsink itself.

 

No problem bake the heatsink at 65C a cople of hours. But I wouldn't put it togeter with the IHS in the oven at 115C

 

Lol definitely not, unless you like watching heatpipes deform and fall off.

 

I absolutely love the BartX 4.3mm IHS's. When I was running an 8086k (after determining there was a gap with shim mod step ups), it just turned it into a low to no fan monster for low loads in both my P870DM-G (dsanke'd) and P870TM1 (Prema). I think you will be really pleased.

 

I have a question, has anyone just used thermal pads as a barrier?

I mean they already come in a variety of thicknesses and should stop liquid metal, or am I missing something?

 

Thermal pads are too far, far too thick for this.
Using Thermalright TFX or Arctic Ceramique as a barrier would be far better.
Air conditioner foam is still best since it won't go anywhere and can be re-used easily. TFX is too expensive for this.

 

I used air conditioner foam and it worked great.

 

I'm going to repaste my GPU LM tonight and I'll be using K5 PRO as a dam instead of (or maybe in addition to because I'm a coward) my straw dams. Any good tips or videos for K5PRO dams?

 

It’ll be extremely messy lol.

 

Indeed. XD

 

What's that red stuff?

 

It's cured liquid electrical tape. It's used to protect the capacitors around the GPU die from coming into contact with liquid metal runoff.

I used Starbrite liquid electrical tape from home depot.

Star Brite 4 oz. Liquid Electrical Tape - Black-084104N - The Home Depot

Takes 24 hours to cure.

I also put K5 pro around the GPU as well, but didn't take a picture of it.

 

Ah, my electric tape is black.

Finished the repaste. What a mess indeed. LM dropped GPU temps in Cyberpunk from 82 to 61 degrees. This will pull me through the summer ;-)

 

I cant believe some of the silly tales told on the LM threads. Kapton tape and nail polish . Get real girls. Might as well use nose boogers. Low density foam, PERIOD! Whatever provides a positive seal from top of the CPU plate proper to the bottom of the Aluminium heat sink plate with comfortable compression.I am using 10mm black low density I got from China in a graphics card package. Perfect! Some are not taking into consideration when thinking compression thickness,that the copper heatsink button IS NOT level to the aluminium plate and also that that plate does not always have support for your foam gasket. In two days of reading it seems there is a mindset with disregard to the fact that in most cases the CPU is going to be upside down when in use and that is the position it will be in 99+. If there is a squish out it is headed DOWN into the bottom of your lappy, NOT UP (gravity) onto your motherboard. The seal to the square, flat CPU plate is a NBrainR. The seal to the aluminum heatsink plate is where the leaks happen.That ball of LM will hide down there on the bottom till the day you throw it in your backpack or flip it over for maintainance, and THEN!!
ASUS is using foam on their ROG LM lappys! Mix up some 5 minute epoxy and using a thin artist brush, give those little resistors and contact points a thin coat,done and bullet proof.Fresh 5 min can be spread as thin as a thou and good up to 100+c Use very little on brush. I mean what do they seal elec components in to prevent damage in industrial applications??
Slobbering paste all over the place is outright redundant as is using strips of thermal pad rather than taking the time to cut precise to size pads for each specific component. Heat transfers best at a concentrated POINT Not being precise just spreads the heat around the mobo and not to the heatsink. Pretty damn simple!
Yeh! The factory uses strips and paste, I wouldnt pay for the labour either to cut up pads if strips and paste was "good enough".

MSI GL63-9SDK 9750H 1660Ti 32gb 2933 Hyper X SN750 500 OS-1Tb SN750 game drive-2Tb Samsung 850 Pro Storage

 

This is my assembly. You can see there is ZIP for foam gasket support on the inside of the GPU plate and not much around the CPU. These areas are the danger points.Notice how far that copper CPU button sticks out from the plate! Notice the uneven paste contact patch left on the copper buttons. Mark the corners of that contact patch with a sharp object before cleaning the old paste. Use these points later to apply tape to make a stencil of the exact contact point you are going to LM. This way you can apply the necessary pressure to get an even coat with a sharp edge without splatter. It is very important to have sharp and aligned LM patches between the button and the die. If this is done precisely, surface tension alone will keep the LM in place under most circumstances.This area must be absolutely squeeky clean before proceeding. I use acetone! Give this a good even coat of LM and work it into the copper (Copper is porous and looks like Moonscape under a microscope)(your working the air out of the pores) and let it sit exposed overnight. Wipe the excess off this first coat with a DRY, coarse cloth and do not be concerned if this should dry out as long as its smooth (no chunkys). Ideally the copper surface should now be light silver to blushed grey. Use a second light even coat and remove the tape stencil when doing final assembly. Also use a removable stencil for your CPU die.You want LM "NOWHERE" except on those straight contact edgesl