AW M15x Throttling Issue Investigation - Stock clocks and overclocked.

no ive never heard of a sager throttling except for soviets and kevins 920 cause those guys push it thru benches. i think what he mentioned was kevins 920 throttling at 80c yes. its still being investigated though cause he has an ES cpu.
yes according to anandtech it is an new i7 feature to discourage overclocking inmainstram cpu's.im not sure if its made its way to its mobile counterparts though...
with that point cooling seems more important than ever, unless your comfortable tweaking with something like throttlestop.

 

I wouldnt be surprised if it's an intel wide issue....hindsight is 20/20 but it seems like the stuttering associated with the M17x is also prevelant with the M980nu as well if you search around the NBR forums and forums not related to NBR. IMO the so called competition between AW and Clevo BIOS's are overrated besides the overclocking, the issues with NVIDIA cards and Intel procs are in the end probably all one in the same....the amount of users in the Clevo forums pushing their systems hard enough to be similar to the amount of AW users pushing both GPU and CPU are just not equal, if they were I bet both the stuttering and throttle would become apparent for both. Just an guestimate from a long time observer of both brands.....

 

there are some guys in the sager forums who push their machines quite hard too but i will agree with you that yes, similar machines with similar components could face the same issues.
im just looking through some desktop o/c forums and i see alot of confusion there too. tjmax is 100 and tdp is 95w (for the desktop 920) but no one seems to agree when actual throttling occurs. most believe it occurs at either 95 or 80.
im just sharing this because i saw jokers first post and it may explain the throttling issue that some have experienced.
i havent experienced it myself though.

cheers

 

Well in the M15x's case it's a bit more complicated. The throttling occurs regardless of what temperature the CPU is at (it never reaches 80C unless I physically choke the air intakes) as long as the GPU is under load at the same time. This is a power draw limitation Dell put in the bios for some retarded reason. ThrottleStop helps get around that particular CPU limitation by preventing the bios from limiting the active load state from going below 99.9%.

However, throttlestop may be able to help with clevo's that are throttling at 80C as well so you may want to pass it on to kevin.

 

oh ok now i understand. yes that was mighty dumb of dell.
kevin just returned his cpu to have it tested. he'll probably post something when he gets it back. ill pass it on then.

 

That sounds like a load of crap to me. A lot of uninformed users start talking about throttling when they don't fully understand what the CPU and motherboard they are working with is capable of or how it is designed to operate.

I've worked with a lot of Asus P6T users during the last year. The problem with that series of motherboards is that it follows the Intel TDP spec and when you are heavily overclocking it with lots of voltage and MHz, it will start to drop the turbo boost when it is fully loaded. A Core i7-920 will start to rapidly cycle the multiplier between 21 and 20 when this first starts to happen and if you keep pushing harder, pretty soon it will disable all turbo boost and you will be stuck with the default maximum multiplier of 20 when at full load.

Users complained so Asus listened to their customers and designed some special bios versions that disable the TDP check so they can be overclocked to the moon and can still continue to use turbo boost. Most of the Gigabyte Desktop boards ignore the Intel TDP limit and many boards give you the option to turn this safety feature on or off. Even Intel's own X58 board lets you manually adjust the TDP limit in the bios.

I refer to this as turbo throttling. Most Intel CPUs don't start to thermal throttle until 100C. Any throttling that is happening at only 80C is usually TDP turbo throttling and then it's only throttling the multiplier down to its default value which is 20 for an i7-920 Desktop CPU. The default for the mobile CPUs is 12 for an i7-720 and 13 for the i7-820.

Thermal throttling is when the multiplier gets rapidly cycled down to its minimum which is 7 for the i7-720, 9 for the i7-820 and 12 for the i7-920 desktop CPUs. That happens at 100C.

The ES engineering sample processors are designed to operate the same way but if it doesn't, you can't judge the retail CPUs based on what one ES processor did.

There have been unfounded rumors about the end of overclocking for the last decade or longer. If Intel wanted to, they could lock all their processors tomorrow but they have no desire to screw over the enthusiast community and are likely very proud every time they hear about how strong their CPUs can run when pushed hard.

Too bad Dell doesn't seem to have that same level of pride in their high performance laptops like the Alienware.

 

@uncle
thats a great explanation. turbo throttling as compared to thermal throttling. and means and ways to disable it.
and this is done through throttlestop for the mobile cpu.
great info and it clears a lot of misconceptions.
thanks and +1 for you

 

ThrottleStop is designed to disable Dell's throttling schemes.

Your CPU will still be protected by the Intel limits even when you're using ThrottleStop. The TDP limit of the mobile chips will reduce the amount of turbo boost you get to zero when all 8 threads are fully loaded with Prime95.

Likewise, if your core temperature ever hits 100C, the multiplier should start to rapidly cycle between 7 and 12 (thermal throttle) which controls heat output and to prevent your CPU from becoming damaged. Intel has done a fantastic job with their CPUs. They are close to bullet proof even in the hands of some extreme overclockers.

The Dell bios schemes that go way beyond Intel's safety features might be necessary to protect the batteries or the lowly 90 watt power adapter that Dell uses on their XPS 1645 series but none of this is needed to protect the CPU. Intel already does a 5 star job of protecting them.

 

I just wanted to dorp by and take my hat off to Joker and unclewebb, its amazing what you 2 have accomplish, compared to the lack of support and the way that dell handled the situation. Its really nice to have people like Joker taking the computer to the max and testing so any flaws are corrected, and to unclewebb for all his support he has and the time he invested in something that wasnt his job. Really nice to see people like you inside the community.

 

Hey there, thank you joker and uncle for the work you've put in for the rest of us. I've downloaded the ThrottleStop application, and I'll run some benchmarks next week.
As for the GPU throttling. I have downloaded the powermizer switch ( http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=273276), and was wondering whether it was basically doing the same thing as the Rivatuner fix? With powermizer off I haven't been getting any numbers lower then the intended standard 3d performance clocks of the 260m (550core, 950mem & 1350shader).

Is it indeed doing the same or does the rivatuner fix also change more things under the hood?

(<- not a techy as you might have noticed ^^ )

 

Ok guys first thing outstanding thread on the throttle problems with the M15x. I have been following it for quite a while before I got my machine. Joker, you and unclewebb are gods. Excellent research and development. And an enjoyable read to boot! But I've got a problem. Seems that I absolutely cannot get Rivatuner to install correctly. I'm using 2.24c (RivaTuner224MSIMOA2009Edition) but when I get it installed there is no "system" tab to do the last part of your GPU fix joker. I've searched and used about 100 different ideas and fixes from driver signing to this and that. Nothing is working. Am I doing something wrong. Oh and I'm using Nvidia driver 195.62. And one more thing. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere around yet but my M15x has BIOS version "A03" on it. Long winded post I know, but once again, thanks for the outstanding work on this throttling issue. Wait one more bit of info you may need. I have the 240M video card.

 

A03? That doesn't sound right but anything's possible......When was you system built and received?

 

I haven't heard of an A03 system bios. Does it say that in the bios section of your system? I'm not sure yet why you aren't able to see a system tab. You could try running it under emulation mode and perhaps that will solve it. Here's what you can try:'

Click on the "Power user" tab, expand the RivaTuner\System selection and for "forcedriverversion" put your driver version without the decimal point (e.g. 195.62=19562).

 

Hey what is the GTX 260m stock clock? Where do i get it from?

 

550/950/1375

 

I monitor mine with rivatuner and it show as 594/950/1458. Is that sound correct?

 

Yup. A03 on the first page of the BIOS screen. Ordered on 22 Dec 09. Got it on 01/02/10. Joker, I tried inputting the driver version (got it from your old post) before I posted my problem here earlier. Nothing. Made no difference at all. I'm at a loss why Rivatuner won't show me the System item. Hmmm. I guess it could be the BIOS version. One other thing I've noticed. Seems that most folks here have the 260M and I've got the 240M. Could someone who has the 240M verify that Rivatuner works for them. Would be much apprecated! Thanks again guys for the input.

 

joeaux, have you tried running furmark + p95 to see if your system even throttles? It very well may not throttle due to having a less power hungry 240M.

 

I reported this issue to the dell UK technical department. it took me a good 3 weeks to convince them (and to get past some VERY arrogant people at dell and alienware). They have asked me to sent in my present system so that they can understand the issue further and promised to release a bios update in a months (+/-) time... So hope it has reached the ears of responsible people atlast. Meanwhile I will be sent a replacement M15x. Hope thit comes as a happy news for everyone who has an M15x and those who are considering one.

 

If you're having the same throttling that is being discussed here, a new system will do exactly the same thing...

 

I know it will have the same issue but if i give my present system to them for testing i wont have a laptop until they are done with it. So they said i will get a new one instead. and they have taken this matter seriously now and have promised a bios update.

Edit: on a side note they told that the new bios for solving M17x latency issue will be released soon.

 

and Alienwares rule : 3 failed attempts to fix an issue =refund

 

Joker, I'll back the M15x up here shortly with Acronis, install furmark + p95 when I can and give it a try. You could be right. But, I'd still like to know what's up with Rivatuner.

 

oneabove, that's really promising that they took your system in and are just sending you a new one. I always wonder why they don't do that more.

Well, hopefully they'll fix this in the BIOS...

And bring back Blu Ray! Why the hey has Dell removed it from the systems I've checked? Maybe they've run out of blue laser diodes

(Aaaaand hopefully that USB issue will get sorted out by Intel...even if that solution that got posted works for everyone (no one else has commented yet), it still feels like a hack to me...and since when did buying an Intel chipset net you broken USB?)

 

What i was thinking is to make a list of all the problems M15x currently have (which can be fixed with a BIOS update) and send it along with my laptop as a Note. Like the USB problem u mentioned, Screen being black till windows login screen appears etc. BTW I am sure alienware is reading these threads... ;-)

 

I apply the throttle fix last night and all of my game had decrease by 3fps. Is that suppose to be right?

 

Turn the throttle fix off and see if you net those lost fps

 

Alright let me give that a try. Thank!!

 

Hey Irb digital do you know that applying the gpu and cpu throttle fix would effect my overclocking? Thank!!

 

dttran83: Post a screen shot of ThrottleStop when you have a question. You need to place check marks in the two Clock Modulation boxes and set them to 100% and you should also put a check mark in the Set Multiplier box and set that to the highest value.

 

K my bad I will post some screen shot later when i get home from work. I did check the chipset and the clock modulation. I didn't check the set multipier though. Joker didn't instucted that in his guide. I will try that out later. Thank unclewebb!!!

 

Your fps should never be affected unless you're comparing stock vs overclocked. Right now you won't get far with overclocking by applying the GPU fix. I'll release the bios files + instructions to flash the video bios tonight.

 

Thank Joker. Yea I try to overclocked and the max i get is 580/950/1450. So I can't overclocked as high if i apply the GPU fix?

 

Nope you can't, you will be limited unless the card is flashed to proper voltages.

 

I'm glad to hear there ARE some new chipsets for Intel's new dual core mobile Nehalams. Not crazy about dual core, but MAYBE they fixed the weird USB stuff (and it's still better than Core 2 duo, which is still good enough).

 

Well ok then! It seems that my 240M isn't throttling. Heh. I've attached a pic of the throttling test after it had been running for about 5 minutes or so. Looks to me like the CPU and GPU were maxed out at the default clocks with NO throttling. Now the $1,000,000: "Is it because of the 240M itself or is it the A03 BIOS?" We'll just have to wait on someone else to try this out with the 240M and see. Thanks a million you guys (Joker and unclewebb in particular) this is great fun. I dig this so much!
-joeaux-

http://raindance.terraventus.com/pics/joeaux.jpg

 

I bet your A03 bios has support for ATi's 5870 mobility. Hopefully Dell releases that soon to the rest of us. Thanks for testing and confirming there's no throttling with the 240M!

P.S. Where in Florida are you located? I'm in Aventura.

 

Lakeland. Man, is it cold here now or what? Sheesh! Oh and sorry for the size of the pic. Forgot to resample it. I'm with you on how great this laptop is Joker. I swear, I've owned a lot of computers in my time and this is simply the best thing to come along in a very long time. I'm planning on picking up a new MacBook Pro when The Steve releases the next iteration. As long as it's Core i7 (hopefully Arrandale). But I can tell you, with the upgradeability of the M15x it'll be a long time before it's "over the hill".
-joeaux-

 

If it's the whole bios ill open it up and see If they did

 

Video bios flashing files + instructions are now on the first page. This is only for those that wish to overclock their 260M when using the RivaTuner throttle fix. Otherwise you do not need to flash your video card if you intend to use it at stock clocks (with or without the rivatuner fix). Remember, use these at your own risk! I've tested them on my M15x and they worked fine but I can't make that guarantee for everyone else. This will likely be one of my final updates for the M15x throttling issue. My M15x is currently up for sale as I await the release of the refreshed M17x. I will add updates that are passed on to me but my own research into the M15x throttling will likely come to a close unless the new M17x also has the same problem (which I suspect it may).

 

Would overclocking my CPU and GPU result in a higher chance of throttling? Also would i necessarily need to overclock both or is just either one ok to overclock and is it worth it?

 

Glad the mystery of the 240M and throttling issues has been somewhat answered...

 

I anxiously await the next A03 owner

 

I want to know what is added or fixes in A03 and when we are getting it other wise we need a A03 owner to backup there bios and upload it!

 

I just remembered that someone else said the 240 sometimes actually plays games better (with less than half the hardware!) because Dell doesn't throttle it :-/

 

My m15x is in production right now, i read somewhere that somebody said they wanted to know if it hat a03 bios. If you would like to know tell me and i can look and find out.

 

Has anyone been able to take a look at my question above? any help would be great.

 

Hello, i'm a new user of this forum....hello everybody!!
special thanks to 5150Joker and unclewebb for Throttling fix....
(sorry for my bad english, i can't speak so well)

i have recently buy M15x notebook and i'm waiting for...

but i have a question... i have read some post in the topic and the first post guide for the Throttling fix but i can't understand if i can use a power adapter with standard 90 watt or i must buy a minimum 130 watt adapter?

thank so much and sorry for mi english!!!

 

The system comes with a 150 watt PSU, and you wouldn't want to use anything less.

 

ok, so for the throttling fix i can use the adapter that i found in the m15x box or i must buy another adapter?