AW M15x Throttling Issue Investigation - Stock clocks and overclocked.

Read my 2nd edit above.....I accomplished your GPU fix. Also I believe i'm using the older driver version (186.47).

 

Be sure to give the 195.62 drivers a try as well. As for overclocking, you won't get very far because the voltage your GPU is currently using is .9v (default is 1v). This will probably be corrected in the newer Rivatuner that is set to release but as of now, it defaults to using the 3D application voltage. In laymans terms, what this means is that there are 4 levels of clocks in the GPU, level 1 with the highest clocks operates at 1v, level 2 (the 383 clock) operates at .9v and level 3 at .85v and so on.

If you want the ability to overclock, you will need to flash the video bios and change the level 2 clock voltage to 1v. Once that's done, you can OC pretty high. I can upload the modified bios file here for people to download as well as the files + instructions if requested. It's as simple as putting them on a formatted USB stick, typing in a few commands and you're done.

 

It's gonna be a while before I feel confident enough to dabble with that. I mostly get what your saying, but if I can't fix what I can break, I still have a a lot of learning to do.

Back to the throttling deal, I'll try to update my drivers asap. Also, I've been running a few other games and have seen great performance, so I'm not thinking this is failed part. Counter-Strike was giving me 150-200fps in online matches. The system test that counter-strke comes with was around 250. Yesterday I ran WOW wrath of the Lich King with settings on Ultra (maxed everything including AA) and was still getting 30-40fps, which I'm assuming is good. I haven't run Crysis yet, but I'll be installing that today or tomorrow and I'll see what happens there.

Just noticed that my GPU is now defaulting to Core 383MHz, Memory 301MHz, and Shader 767MHz clocks. I have to open Rivatuner to "overclock" it back to the previous defaults of 550/950/1350. Pressing the stealth mode button makes no difference, and neither does removing the power supply, which has been used the entire time. Just uninstalled Rivatuner, and no change. System still defaults to 383/301/767.

Just thought about something. Since I just installed new drivers......is this the new "default"? Now that I'm thinking about it, I never saw any clock changes (other than the L4D2 throttling), that some of you describe when referencing the function of powermizer. Maybe powermizer wasn't used with the old 186.xx drivers? I doubt it though, because when I run a game, the clocks don't go back up to the normal 550/95/1350. I'm gonna need some suggestions...

 

Once you disable rivatuner, the card should function as it normally does. If it's stuck at 383 during games then you could try changing the power manager function in the nvidia control panel. Also try rebooting and double check the stealth button.

 

Rivatuner uninstalled with no difference. It's stuck at 383 for everything not just games, unless I open Rivatuner and set the clocks. I did a system restore. I only went back 2 hours though, which was enough to get me back with the 186.xx drivers. This also didn't make a difference. I looked in the Nvidia control panel and found nothing dealing with power. I've rebooted several times, especially after making changes in Rivatuner. I deselected "enable driver level hardware overclocking". I changed "force constant performance level" back to "disabled". I can toggle the Stealth Mode icon, but its not showing any difference in clocks when being monitored with GPU-Z, so I really doubt its stuck in Stealth mode.

 

That's really odd, it's certainly not what should have happened and hasn't with my testing. I think you may need to do an uninstall of your drivers and then use driver sweeper to clean up the residual files. Once that's done, reinstall 195.62 and you should be okay. I don't think this has anything to do with Rivatuner unless you have it set to start with Windows with driver level overclocking enabled.

 

is the throttling issue only in the 260m? and does having Bios A02 help as well?

 

I think its back to normal. Since you have to restart after making a change in RivaTuner, I think I was misunderstanding how Rivatuner works. I believe you have to restart anytime you disable or enable clock changes. I think Stealth mode might have been defaulting on startup. The only thing that makes me think I'm not going crazy is Stealth Mode clearly had no effect, because I could toggle it on/off but see no difference in the clocks. But now I'm starting to think that maybe I didn't restart and Riva was still locking in lower clocks....or something crazy like that.

Either way, I've got 195.62 installed. I haven't noticed any different with the new drivers though.I've got the same throttling in L4D2 if I don't use the GPU fix with RivaTuner. The only difference I see with new Nvidia drivers is I can now see Powermizer downclock almost immediately after a high graphical load has ended, and if I'm websurfing or just fiddling on the desktop, the GPU gets heavily downclocked. Thanks Joker for the assistance, this is stuff I need to learn. So far I'll only have to do the fix for 1 of the several games that I have. I'm a little bothered by the fact that you don't have the same throttling issue, but I'd find it hard to believe that our problems are directly related. I highly doubt its a bad part because temps are normal, the game operates normal when not throttled, and the throttling is cyclical, independent of temp, or.the relative changes in graphical load. I can also get rid of it with the same fix as everyone else. I've never upgraded my BIOS, so I'm assuming I have A01. Well I hope Dell is listening......For a system that retails at $3k, that boasts numbers, and specs and everything under the sun. They better get on the ball, or there's going to be a lot of unhappy customers. Jon@Dell hasn't visited us in a while, so we might not ever see the proper fix that owes us.

I'll do some more testing tonight, after I wake up from a long sleep.

 

Just a note to John@Dell and the dell tech. 186.47 doesn't have powermizer enabled by default. At least it didn't on my system, and ran at full clocks 100% of the time. I'm pretty sure this LFD2 throttling seen by Irb Digital cannot be attributed to powermizer.

 

thanks for all the help dude... and could you please update the first post with the modified bios please and the instructions...

 

I just downloaded and played 2 levels in LFD2 and saw no throttling of my GPU. make sure you have your GPU set for max performance in the control panel

 

This is the only area where I can adjust performance. In the past, I've left it in the default setting of "let the 3d application decide". This morning I selected "use my preference ephasizing: performance". It still did the same throttling as described earlier. Can someone tell me where I can turn powermizer on or off? I looked in Nvidia CP, and in the Windows CP and I couldn't see anything pertaining to Powermizer. I did change power management from Balanced to High Performance. However the only change to the throttling is through RivaTuner.

 

I think part of the reason you are seeing throttling where others are not is because you have a 920xm CPU which consumes more power. Based on the tests I've run, I'm quite certain the bios throttling has to do with power consumption. In your case, you reach a threshold faster than the rest of us because of that 920xm. You will need to run Rivatuner for L4D2 and probably other games where the rest of us may not see it happen or at least as often. Unfortunately this can all be corrected with a bios update but Dell refuses to do it thus far. A simple software solution for the CPU side of the throttling fix is in development and should hopefully arrive soon.

 

UPDATE: Well I've been hinting at a software update that's coming soon which will make the CPU throttle fix a simple click of a button and now that I have a beta version, I'll show you guys a few teaser pictures to show off how it works and how easy it is to use. Thanks to unclewebb (author of Realtemp and ThrottleStop) for writing an awesome program. I hope once the release version is available, all of you consider sending unclewebb a paypal donation for all his work:

Photo of throttlestop in action:




Photo when throttlestop is disabled:




Pay attention to the load state in both pictures, with throttlestop doing it's magic, we get a CPU that is being fully utilized (99.9% load state) which defeats the evil Dell bios throttling algorithm. When throttlestop is disabled, that same evil Dell bios algorithm takes over and throttles the CPU to 52%! What does this mean? Without an active CPU throttle fix in place, you can potentially see up to ~50% drop in CPU performance during gaming or application use when the CPU/GPU are concurrently used! By the way, did you guys notice my GPU clocks? The files to flash the bios to 1v so the rest of you can do that will come soon.

 

Good stuff Joker. I'm still running my own tests, which is chump change, compared to what you guys are doing. Some people don't think its a big deal, but anyone that bought this for gaming, and noticed a 50% drop in gaming performance, every 10 seconds, would be a little more pro-active, like I am becoming. I just made sure all of my drivers were up to date, at least what dell has on their drivers/downloads page. So now my BIOS is up to date at A02. I think one thing that will help noobs like me is a M15x guide on things to do when first received. The BIOS took me a while because I was using the wrong command in DOS to flash the EC. Which should've have been automatic anyway. Dell still hasn't fixed that. John@Dell, we anxiously await your return.

FYI, I'll be reporting more of my real world experiences as I get them.

Just for comparison purposes, to see if when its not throttling that all systems are go.......what fps are you seeing in game? Also is anyone benchmarking their system? If so what software are you using. There's a benchmarking thread for the M17x, but nothing for us to go on with the M15x.

 

so should i change the processor in my M15x to the 820 to avoid throttling, i have a 920 in there now (still being processed) or just wait for the fix that is coming either from here or dell (whenever that will be) and keep the raw power of the 920. how inconvenient do you guys find this, just curious cuz i'm getting one soon, and my son was just born yesterday so less inconveniences the better lol

 

We need to get a list of what configurations are most effected based on cpu's like mine is a I7 720 , ive duplicated the throttling with synthetic benchmarks but no games i've tryed have caused it to happen. So which cpu with the GTX 260 GPU is most effected the fastest? I tryed the M17 powersupply (still have it here) and it made no difference over my stock unit.
Games i've tryed:

 

So far the 920xm is the one that throttles faster because it consumes more power than either the i720 or 820. So there really isn't a need for configuration lists because the 920xm is the only cpu that consumes more power.

Thorpe--Keep your 920xm and take advantage of it's power. If you ever experience throttling, come back to this thread and apply the fixes I've outlined and you will be fine. As of now, the throttling issue has been minimized because of the fixes in place. With the new throttlestop program coming, it will make the CPU throttle fix that much easier. Dell absolutely needs to issue a bios fix to remove these limitations but whether they will ever do so is doubtful. They aren't proactive enough to do that for their customers.

 

thanks alot joker, appreciate your input, got it with 8gigs of ram and all, i'm just glad that since i won't get it for another week or so if they announce anything awesome at ces i can just send it back and get another one, makes the buyers remorse and indecisiveness in me at ease. also again thanks for all your hard work, if it wasn't for you guys i wouldn't know what to do.

can't wait till i get it and test it out, i really hope it delivers on crysis and dragon age

 

Just a thought here, but has anyone contacted Alienware directly about this issue? The Dell representative that has been present in this thread does not seem to be an AW rep, but rathter just a generic Dell rep. Would it help if someone went to the official Aliewnare support forums and directed them to this thread? If it hasnn't already been done, I could do it (I have an Alienware account dating back to 2002, before Dell). Thanks!

Rich

 

smart idea link, though one would think they would have mentioned had they gone to an alienware rep, i haven't read the whole thread, but there's no harm in trying right, i say go for it.

 

Hi Thorpe,

I just made a post pointing to this thread on the Aliewnare Techncial Support -> Mobile -> General board. It has to be moderatied before it will show up though. Maybe this will generate some traction?

Rich

 

I can get Crysis to throttle also, but its cycle isn't as quick as L4D2. I don't have FPS numbers yet because I can't seem to toggle the console.

 

just use fraps to log your fps and gpu-z log feature.

 

I need some benchmarks. I'm running Crysis Warhead and with all settings turned down to minimum, 1920x1080 res, no AA, full screen, no Vsync, and I'm averaging 30-50fps. If I use the recommended settings, which is "gamer" ("high" on the original crysis) at the same res, and everything deselected except full screen, i get 15-20fps. Oh and if I turn everything up to Enthusiast, with AA, and Vsync, the game just goes to a black screen after loading. This is with the Rivatuner GPU fix holding everything at 550/950/1350 verified through GPU-Z. I do get throttling without the rivatuner fix in place. I'm using fraps to get these numbers, but I need to know what similar setups are getting, because this seems on the low to me. I have similar performance with the original Crysis also.

 

Joker dude, you have to stop being so picky man, your lucky you have the money to even buy something that expensive, just go business, get a precision, heat and combustion is always going to be there, fan speed and loudness is always going to be there, just get a larger psu. The precision chassis is great.

 

It's not being picky to expect ANY computer to be able to operate as advertised, let alone one of Dell's highest end systems. Picky might be...I don't know, you don't like the way an exhaust port looks? Wanting it to run right at stock clocks isn't picky.

 

L4D and L4D2 are VERY CPU intensive and are coded very well and they will result in throttleing when you have masses of zombies. While crysis is a big pile of crap and does not need the CPU power that L4D does.

 

Why don't you mind your business and stop trolling my threads? Especially if you have no clue of what you're ranting about. I'd say more but unfortunately these forums are moderated.

 

Ok fine, after reading many pages, i concur to agree with the many things you have been posting, and tests. It is amazing the thing still hasn't blown up on you from all the stressing of the gpu and cpu. I do see a lot of machines from dell are beginning to throttle a lot, especially the gpu, but couldn't it also be the heat in your home? Not as a major issue but as a little issue, i tend to see laptops tend to get warmer in the winter indoors with a lot of heat. Besides that, there needs to be a major bios update here. I agree our capitalist crappy society is going down a hole, the beacon of hope is going downhill, everything isn't manufactured today in the US and that is also another reason why we are paying so much money for a machine that has so many problems, there will be a recall i predict it. It wouldn't make sense if there wasn't. The entire motherboard needs to remolded, this is a disgrace for how much we pay for something and how we get screwed over. You should keep your machine and e-mail Michael dell or anyone else up on the high executives list. This cannot be ignored by dell, just because the average consumer doesn't understand these type of things does not mean that it should be put aside. This could be a ticking time bomb! Who knows if it explodes or something like that. Putting a 5870 or similar is a great alternative. This fourm does get quite heated though.

 

The throttling has nothing to do with heat. My M15x isn't under any kind of stress either when I run my tests. Read the first page carefully and you will have all the pertinent information for this topic. Dell is just like other big corporations (e.g. Asus with their BSOD'ing G51-J), they make a product, market it and then abandon it in favor of the newer refresh. These models are changed so quickly that they rarely support them for very long.

 

I read that Asus released a bios update to fix the BSOD, it is sad that these machines get an upgrade too much. Then what does the throttling has to do with? So do you think there will then an update to the M15x so quickly? Its true from that xotpic article about how corporations rush to get the product out with the build quality getting worse and worse every year. Dell is going to eventually burn in hell for what they have done.

 

There is NOT a BIOS update that fixes the G51j. That's still an open problem, and could well be unfixable. It's more likely this throttling issue on the M15x can be fixed through the BIOS since it's even fixable through a work around Joker developed, and doesn't appear to be an actual hardware problem (while the other one MIGHT be).

I don't really think computers are getting less reliable. It's been pretty stead for a long time so far as I know. ALthough there was a few years ago a push more towards "stylish" notebooks that probably didn't help things, but it's been that way for a while (and the M15x is clearly built right in terms of getting rid of heat, etc.)

 

Despite the bios throttling with M15x, it's easily the best notebook I've used in terms of build quality and cooling. If Dell issued a bios update for it then it would approach perfection.

 

What temps should the M15x CPU and GPU be around when under the stress of gaming or benchmarking. Also, what would be your temperature max before you thought you were putting your components in danger? I'm asking because CPU-Z gives me the fire icon next to each thread as soon as I start a game. I'm assuming that these mobile processors run hotter than desktops, and this is why CPU-Z says my system is on "fire".

 

The Tjmax for the i7 is 100C and for the GPU it's 110C so the M15x doesn't ever get close to approaching those temps even while under the most extreme test environments. Normal gaming won't ever stress the system enough. The gaming notebooks that are plagued with running far too hot are the Asus built ones. People are lining up to buy that new G73 and they're going to be in for a nice shock when they see burning temperatures with it. The only brands I trust to build a well cooled notebook are Clevo and Alienware.

 

Your assuming it will, out of your experience with G51, the G71 usually ran cooler. Not saying it wont run hot, but consider the other way around, what if it runs fine, then AW and Clevo will have a strong competitor that will compete with their lines until they upgrade toward 5800 series.

 

Moo had mension that L4D and L4D 2 is a very CPU intensive game and that it will cause the M15x to throttle when there are a massive zombie attack. I use to have the old m15x and now the new M15x. Whenever i play L4D i got a constant 60fps but it does drop down to like 30-35 when there a large zombie attack. Isn't that normal? I mean there alot of thing going on so shouldn't the framerate drop a little. Same for crysis, I got a constant of 29-43 fps and when there a massive battle it drop to 21fps. So is this still consider throttling? Doesn't all game do that?

 

Can you post a screen shot of that? Last time I checked, CPU-Z doesn't monitor temperatures and it doesn't have flaming pictures. Are you talking about SpeedFan? Can that program even monitor these new CPUs correctly or does it still report that an i7 has 8 cores when it only has 4 cores? Flaming icons are one programmers opinion but it doesn't have anything to do with the Intel specification for these CPUs.

Intel says their CPUs can run at up to 100C before throttling and the thermal shutdown temperature isn't until 125C. There will be no flames because these CPUs are designed to turn themselves off the instant they hit 125C to protect them from being damaged. That's a lot of headroom. No one is hitting 100C while gaming so that's not the reason for throttling.

 

My apologies, it was speedfan, which appears to show the flame icon with any temps over 50C....I'll get a screenshot later on today when I start some gaming. It does show 8 threads, but I assumed that was correct. 4 cores, 8 threads?

 

Over 50c is fine when they're under load, assuming it monitors temperatures correctly.

 

The point I was trying to make is that 50C is a joke for a Core i7 mobile processor or for that matter, any Intel CPU. The flaming pictures in SpeedFan are a joke.

Intel builds a pile of safety features into their CPUs. It is pretty much impossible to kill one due to heat. If they are running too hot, they will thermal throttle and slow down but that doesn't happen until 100C. No one here is hitting 100C.

If thermal throttling isn't able to control the core temperature then when it reaches 125C it will shut down. You don't have to be overly concerned about the core temperature because Intel CPUs do such a great job of looking after themselves.

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=5687827&postcount=2144

With 5150Joker's infinite help, here's a new version of ThrottleStop that can monitor and correct for a second type of clock modulation throttling that Dell is using. This second method is used on the Alienware M15x.

Initial testing looks excellent. This is a nice simple solution to maximize your performance.

If you leave the Clock Modulation boxes both blank, you can go do some gaming and see if either of these methods are being used on your CPU. Just check the log file option. For more frequent data use the MoreData=1 INI file option.

 

I'd like to thank unclewebb for helping the Alienware M15x community with solving the CPU throttling problem. If it were not for his continued efforts, we would be stuck relying on a cumbersome ACPI hack. Thanks to all his hard work, we now have a simple to use program which will combat the CPU throttling with a single click! Here are the updated CPU throttling fix instructions I have posted on the first page:


[*] UPDATE 1/3/2010 for CPU Throttling Fix:

I've been working with UncleWebb in testing for an easy to use solution for the CPU throttling portion of the throttling fix. Well thanks to his mad programming skills, we now have release 1.7 of ThrottleStop which will solve the CPU throttling problem! The instructions are simple, download the program, turn it on, checkmark both the chipset and clock modulation boxes and set them to 100%. You must enable ThrottleStop each time you want to play a game that pushes the CPU to ensure maximum gaming performance and CPU utilization. My own testing has shown that with ThrottleStop 1.7, CPU performance gains are as high as 50%! If you find ThrottleStop 1.7 useful for your day to day use, please consider donating via PayPal to UncleWebb for all his efforts. He did all this free for the community so a small donation is the least we can do. If you are interested in donating, please PM me for information.

 

Your most welcome 5150Joker. I always like a challenge. After reading some of the nonsense posted in this thread, I knew waiting for Dell to come up with a solution was not going to be an option.

If anyone is not sure if Chipset Clock Modulation throttling effects them, they can run ThrottleStop and don't check any of the boxes except the Log File box. This will let ThrottleStop monitor your system as is without correcting anything. Go play a modern game and when you're done, exit ThrottleStop and go have a look at the ThrottleStopLog.txt file.

If you see 2 columns of 100.0% then neither type of clock modulation throttling is an issue in that game. If one of the columns in the log file has a bunch of numbers like 37.5% or 50% then that is a sign of how fast your CPU was running during sections of that game. A number like 25% means that your 1600 MHz CPU was being throttled by Dell back to the equivalent of a 400 MHz CPU.

The Dell rep on this forum said that throttling shouldn't effect any real world use. Now we have an easy to use tool to test that theory. If modern games cause the CPU to throttle like crazy then it's about time that Dell man up to the problem and come up with a proper bios fix.

Hopefully someone can post a log file or two, as long as they're not too busy enjoying their new computer that can finally run the way Intel designed these Core i7 mobile chips to run.

 

Wow. AMAZING work unclewebb! I feel like that "rep" system is a bit goofy and I don't think I've used it before, but I just added one to yours in case you care. Just amazing.

You're currently outdoing Dell though :lol:

 

does this mean that we no longer have to use many software to stop throttling for cpu and gpu? does "Throttle stop" stop the cpu and gpu throttling by it self?

 

Throttlestop works on the CPU side of throttling. For the GPU everyone will need to use the RivaTuner fix. Remember, the Dell bios throttles both the CPU and GPU thus both RivaTuner and Throttlestop are necessary.

 

ei joker
im not usre if this was discussed here yet:
was reading on the desktop i7 community in anandtech a couple of days ago and they emntioned that desktop i7 has a tdp of 80c for the 920 and lower. this is so they can convince the enthusiast community to patronze the extreme editions instead. caused quite an uproar actually since it signals the end of overclocking for midrange chips.
this could be the reason why the cpu is throttling. moot point actually since you found a solution, but still wanted to share.

cheers

 

Soviet Sunrise actually told me that a W860 user experienced CPU throttling with his i820 at 80C, was that you? I ran some tests with the M15x and after some work, managed to get 2 cores to 80C and had no throttling take place (this was without ThrottleStop active). Are you sure it's an Intel wide issue and not specific to Clevo? Desktops may have a similar situation going on, who knows.