NEW!! Alienware Area-51M LAPTOP!! (to replace alienware 15 and 17)

thats actually really the problem. even with prema bios, you might not be able to fix this dell machine and it'll throttle no matter what. with clevo, so far it is fixable in terms of performance just because it has somewhat bigger heatsink and thicker of a laptop, and thats fact.

 

Bring back the RGB screen from M17x R2 or stuff an OLED in this BEAST. I'll pick one up from the outlet about half way in after reviews and minor updates have been made.

 

There will be no @Prema BIOS for this product. There will be no mod BIOS from anyone unless they stopped using BootGuard on this system. There is a hardware lock on the firmware and the only way to circumvent it would be to replace the PCH chip with one that does not have that lock. You can't even sledgehammer it with an SPI programmer if they are still employing that cancer on this new product. This is the biggest issue and will likely have no remedy. The thermals are probably nothing a portable AC unit cannot address for overclocked benching. If I were still into laptops, I would not care all that much because I could still do what I wanted to do with overclocking using the portable AC unit. All anyone can do is hope and pray they didn't use this firmware castration filth on it.

 

Do you remember if AW17/AW18 also had this exact thing? I forgot but I think it was this and someone unlocked the bios thanks to a bug in the BIOS.

 

I'm both happy and sad about the new Alienware. Happy that they finally demonstrated an effort to do something right. Happy that it may cause Clevo and MSI to step up their game. Happy that it has potential to inflict severe damage and mark the beginning of the degradation of the BGA turdbook gaming notebook market. Extremely sad that they either lack the knowledge or desire to make it run right. That part is very sad, because had they done so it would have taken them back to the lead spot and shaken the gaming notebook industry even more so.

I am really scared for Brother @Ultra Male. He is a good friend and he spent a lot of money on a huge risk. (We cannot call any computer an investment.) I sincerely hope it works better for his sake than I expect it to based on what little is known about it now. I am not encouraged about what kind of results it seems we can expect at this time. Maybe the keyboard will be enough to make him happy. Not sure the audio quality will live up to his expectations.

The Ranger and Viking used a less intrusive form of firmware protection called Secure Flash. That was with Insyde BIOS, not AMI/Aptio. You could sledgehammer the BIOS mod with an SPI programmer or remove the chip for flashing and solder it back. Brother @slv7 was successful in doing so, but they did not use the PCH/BootGuard mega-gimp cancer.

 

With a Silicon Lottery CPU rated @ 5.1 GHz along with HIDevolution's cooling mods, I am positive that it should work.

 

That must have been introduced with the BGA models then. I know Prema had a vBIOS/BIOS mod for the AW 17 R2/AW15 R1 980M/970M so maybe they introduced it after that.

Since this is a desktop chipset (Z series at that) let's see if they continue to prevent firmware mods. Although idk anyone that's ordered that has a programmer/willing to test.

 

You haven't been paying attention to my posts. The TDP is too low to support an 8700K. It's going to be a throttling mess trying to run the 9900K with default multipliers. If you want to run the 9900K stock with no throttling, it needs about 160W to avoid power limit throttling. HIDevolution magic is amazing, but it is not strong enough to cure the hard-coded cancer. For your sake, and because I really care about you, I hope I am wrong.

We are talking about system BIOS, not vBIOS. Totally different firmware. The system BIOS is what will gimp the CPU and not be fixable unless they leave this one unlocked for end-user enhancement.

 

Wasn't the vBIOS inside the BIOS though for those models (the BGA ones Prema made a firmware for)? Or it doesn't matter?

I know on the new model they're separate since the GPU is actually a GPU lol. Should be able to use a programmer for the GPU.

 

Don't know and don't care. It matters if they are still doing that.

As for the GPU, it's new and proprietary. I would assume it can be modded with an SPI programmer, but I am just guessing. Getting more performance from the GPU should be the least of anyone's concern with this product. The bigger fish to be fried will be having the CPU run correctly.

Even so, RTX vBIOS modding is very different. Totally different architecture. Have spent quite a bit of time with @Prema trying to figure it out on 2080 Ti and it's crazy how many calories have been burned on interfering with 20-series firmware mods. It's a bigger pain in the ass that anything I can remember from the past. They've gone Über-Nazi on the controls.


What we need to have happen is, round up all of the heads of engineering and product development from every company that produces computer hardware, give each of them a complimentary lobotomy with dirty gardening tools and shoot all of the firmware engineers. Then, we replace all of them with the anti-Nazi type. The current brain trust truly sucks.

 

i have the AGA with a gtx 1080ti at 2100mhz on core and a FHD 240hz display. that is my idead, and i always play as a desktop
because i come home and only have to plug the AGA port, all the other things like keyboard, mouse, speakers, heatset, rgb mousepad, everything is connected on my display

 

sanding the surface can fix that, to make it perfectly flat

 

Yeah, since you already have that it makes a lot of sense to use it and save the money on buying a better internal GPU for something else. If you get the one with a 9900K and it doesn't throttle too much the eGPU and your 1080 Ti will probably run better than it ever has before.

But, an even better idea is to just keep the laptop you have now and use it when you need to as a laptop and nothing more and spend your money on something like this instead of the new Alienware. You can sell the eGPU (without the GPU) to offset part of the cost. You've already got the GPU and peripherals. All you need is a the rest of the desktop parts and you can do that way cheaper than the Area 51M. You'll never look back.

 

With CPU TDP hard-locked at 136W under solo load and turned down 120W when GPU is loaded; even a silicon lottery i9 won't reach 5.1 GHZ. Its just not about the heat or cooling capacity if the firmware is locked.

Don't get me wrong, this system is a huge improvement over the 17 R5 or m17, and pretty much any other 17. Just I think you might be disappointed with the i9.

HID should keep you informed on their development of this though. I would hope they would let you know before shipping if that CPU can actually perform as advertised in the system.

Hopefully they change the firmware between now and launch if they are reading these forums. @Mr. Fox It also doesn't make any sense to provide 2 PSUs if, under load, the system can only reach 300W anyways (120W CPU + 180W GPU). 330W psu would been fine.

 

Well, I'll say this... Do they exist. Yes they do.
It is a nice looking machine and they actually started going "back" in the right direction...






My new programmer...

 

Yeah, I don't know. Not sure why they did it. Maybe because @Mr. Fox and @Johnksss showed them 5 or 6 years ago that two were needed and why, and they just don't know enough to understand that this one does not. Or, maybe they designed something in a way that it does that could have been designed differently so that it did not. They may have done it just because they thought it would impress people and elicit more ooohs and aaahhs. It is especially strange in light of what could end up being some pretty serious performance gimping (if they don't correct it).

One thing is for sure. If they would have asked for help from @Mr. Fox and @Johnksss before going public with it, we could have helped things turn out better in multiple ways, including the publicity. A good business reason to not do that could be due to the fact that it is definitely gimped and we would have given them a ton of grief over that (déjà vu).

 

@Mr. Fox you are right, i am going to wait and see the ryzen 3700X, i have big expectations about it. i also want an open bench like yours. at the moment i dont need liquid cooling for the 1080ti, is runing at 53°C in the worst case. BUT my next CPU will definetly have a TOP liquid cooling. I am a PRO FPS gamer, and i am constantly concerned about FPS lol, my weak cpu cant give me all the performance i want. That and plus that PUBG is bad optimized

 

Here is a new avatar for you. You can use it after you get it and find out that it doesn't.

 

Now with all this TDP limit talk I am starting to have my doubts. Once HIDevolution receive it I will ask them to show me how it runs before they ship it.

 

Nobody said there will be a Prema BIOS for AW. I merely stated that even Prema BIOS doesn't fix all the bugs and glitches Clevo has. My system is no exception.

Don't worry, while it's true that the TDP limit may (very likely) throttle the machine, I'm pretty sure AW will up it with a BIOS over time, same as they did with the GTX 1080. I am really happy that you decided to go with the notebook, that way we have someone we know we can trust reviewing the machine =D

 

The gamble is far too great. There is no guarantee they would fix it, and past performance suggests they will not. They will most likely excuse it with the baloney that it "functions as intended" (as they intend). Skunks never change their stripes. Here is hoping they will prove me wrong. There is a first time for everything. But, hopefully not someone I care about taking such a massive risk with their own money.

 

As I already linked it's extremely unlikely they won't up the TDP.
You're just so anti AW because of the BGA that you simply want to downtalk it.

If they go ahead and overbuff their TDP on the BGAbooks then why wouldn't they do it on their LGA flagship which is even made for DIY people?

 

Well said.

 

Just because you linked something does not make it accurate. You are assuming and ignoring those with more experience. I am not anti-anything except anti broken trash. That applies to all brands. If the shoe fit, Alienware wears it, just like all the others. They wear that shoe frequently. If they show us a win, I will admit it is a win after there is proof of it. Right now all we have is pictures and videos of something that looks fancy and a load of carefully crafted marketing baloney.

 

Are you dense? You can literally downaload the vBios and see for yoruself how it ups the TDP. How is your "experience" better than actual facts????

Fully customizable LGA notebook that is carefully crafted together with 240hz screen that might or might not have TDP issues which we don't know yet since it's not officially released yet. There is one thing you absolutely do not understand yet.

Alienware absolutely destroyed the competition. They were the absolute highlight on CES. They have all the attention and know that now it's time to not mess up. There is absolutely no way that they will allow the notebook to be a throttling mess, at least in the long run. So far alienware absolutely understands that this is their change to make big bucks.

 

LOL.
Wrong!

But after the 29th....You'll find out the truth.

 

No. You used "s" after the word fact and that is an exaggeration. One example of a vBIOS that got fixed is an isolated event that doesn't erase a long history of similar issues that haven't been fixed. And, we are not talking about a vBIOS. We are talking about a motherboard firmware engineering mistake involving a very common CPU and chipset, and one for which there is no excuse. And, it is not the first time they have made this kind of mistake. They never fixed any of the issues with the last respectable notebook they built (Alienware 18 "Viking" laptop). They just abandoned it and left it broken. They do the same thing to their desktops, year over year, over year. Gimp-o-rama sounds like hyperbole, but it's actually very accurate.

I hope they do understand it is their chance to make things right. It should be their last one. I want them to make things right. I really do. As a former insider with direct contact with key people, I know how things were and I know that they will have to be different now. There is no guarantee that they will be. If things were good and there was actually hope there would ever be a better tomorrow, I never would have moved to Clevo. And, now I am done with all of them. So, yeah... I'm dense. You're right. Experience doesn't matter. Go ahead. Buy it, and then don't complain if it never gets fixed.

Anyhow... waiting for the proof.

 

Last night, I was like being teared apart by P870TM-R and this Area-51m. As of now, I'm on P870TM-R track.

Sent from my MIX 3 using Tapatalk

 

Just wait till they're fully released first, then start drawing your conclusions from there. Right now, all we are seeing is "flash and glitter from all". After the 29th is when the real battle begins....

 

Well said. Maybe they'll listen if more than one voice of intelligence speaks.

 

Maybe, but when things finally come out, then the next line of excuses hit. I just hope Dell was paying attention at CES and correct their mistakes... Or have left room enough for the end user to.

 

Whats your point? My clevo is still a mess as well, even with premamod. What now? want to rage about clevo for me?
It's clear to ANYBODY that this alienware has an entirely different engeneering team. Look at the mainboard itself.

And what issue are you even refering to. You're so vague about it that it almost seems you don't even know yourself what you're talking about. I'm quite a bit in the AW 18 section and I don't see any known firmware bug that causes issues which you're vaguely hinting at.

 

I really hope AW can create a magic with Area-51m. They are offering such a desirable outfit.

Sent from my MIX 3 using Tapatalk

 

Yes, that would be amazing if they did.

The trouble is, the hotshots making the engineering decisions don't care what anyone wants. They are engineers and they don't make mistakes. And, they don't admit them when there is proof that they do. They engineer malarkey to cover up for it. If they decide, in their infinite wisdom, that laptop X should never use more than a certain amount of power, a team of wild mules won't drag any more watts from it. If fixing it requires breaching whatever arbitrary limit was set, it won't get fixed... ever. Much like dealing with government bureaucracy.

And, they've taken steps to ensure nobody else fixes what they break. And, that's what's wrong with the brand. We expect stupidity from manufacturers. We accept it as an unfortunate fact of life and fix it ourselves. When you can't, and they've intentionally seen to that, it really sucks.

NDA. I have to be vague. People that have been around the brand for a very long time know what I am talking about. Or, some of them do. If you had been around for a long time, you wouldn't have to ask and you would not have much reason for optimism. Those that do not know will have to look at a bunch of old threads or just use their imagination.

And, yeah you're right. Clevo sucks. Some models suck so bad that even Prema can't make them right. I'm sorry you own one of those. The models that can be fixed are fixed, but only thanks to Prema. Clevo is just like Alienware, and MSI, and ASUS and all the others. They don't give a rat's ass. They make notebooks and use that as a lame excuse for selling sucky products.

 

Seeing how there is no mysterious AW 18 bug around since the AW 18 forums mostly discuss common problems which many notebooks share and the fact that you are never going to answer the question is showcasing that you're basicially again talking out of your bum.

You claim so much BS about AW, such as ensure steps to never fix problems, which you never mention or link, showcases simply how hard you're trying to make garbage up to make AW sound bad.

I'm still getting tons of requests of modding Clevo BIOSes to fix problems, you'd be suprised how many people are asking me to mod their P7xx BIOS to support NVME for instance, which Clevo never even bothered to fix themselves.P37x bug that causes you not to be able to OC ram, tons of Fan profile issues, Power limit bugs etc.

And yet here we are, you being a clevo fanboy cryinng about AW issues that don't exist. And claim how they are anti consumer.

 

@Mr. Fox
Yeah, that's why I made the comment about the pictures....People who know what NDA means are not about to throw away their connects just because people in a forum want them too. I never really understood that. That's why I try to keep most post in the forums else they try to come back later and post emails and private messages in an open forum. When it was told to them in confeidence!

 

As mentioned with the upping of the TDP limit that AW did for the 1080 models, it's safe to say that it is not impossible for them to make changes accordingly.

I don't know of any other mainstream ODM that is as receptive as AW/Dell.

Perhaps it'd be better to have hope, rather than signing off on things as being impossible. Who knows ... they've surprised us a few times, maybe they can do it again.

Well said and I was just about to emphasis on your last sentence.

"If they go ahead and overbuff their TDP on the BGAbooks then why wouldn't they do it on their LGA flagship which is even made for DIY people?"

Hey John, it's good to see you here. Hope all has been well. It's been a while eh?

In terms of AW/Dell... lol I agree, I hope that they are listening and learning. It would be great for them to address some things before the first batch of systems that ship.

 

The reason it got fixed is that the system wasn't at the limit engineering had set for the total system power and they had some wiggle room to work with.

On this new machine, it depends on if they have allowed themselves any wiggle room on the limit the decision makers have decided on. If it is already at the limit and that is why it is gimped to begin with, it won't get fixed. If there is wiggle room, and they've been badgered enough about malfunction they might fix it, or partially fix it by allowing more TDP (up to the arbitrary limit). They won't let it run wild and free... guaranteed. It will be metered.

One way of creating the pressure necessary for positive change to occur is happening right now, in this thread. Without it, you know damned good and well it ain't gonna happen. Humiliation and pain can be very effective at eliciting a response. As such, they are tools that can and should be used to produce the results that everyone desires.

 

It all started with the cancerous Alienware 18, I doubt they backtracked on hard power limits, but it would be interesting if they did.

I wonder who the ODM for this machine is.

 

Hey, good to see you still around! And all has been pretty darn good so far!

I'm not going to lie, I did like the look and feel of this model. And the fact that they went LGA made things even that more appealing! This gives the end user a bit more to play around with in terms of upgrades. (Hopefully - Depends on if this socket stays in service) The fact that they finally went with a dual port PSU option gives the user the option to only carry 1 adapter is also nice. Although i could not tell if the PSU's are dual 230W/300W/330W though. And from the pictures I took, they seem to be two different versions.... Performance seems to be there, but so did some other things. I'll have more info later.

 

That would be great. I would be shocked beyond belief if they did. It's a very popular thing to do with notebook manufacturing. All of the ODMs do it. It let's them bid on a job and then look for ways to cut corners to maximize profits without selling something that is going to present a fire hazard to consumers.

It's funny you mention that. This reminds me so much of that scenario. It is still painful in some ways. Would have been the best they ever had but for the cancer that cut its gonads off. And, it still ain't fixed. And, never will be now that it's EOL. They didn't care back then, and probably never will, now or later.

Imagine how hard it would be for the people knowing what all the faults are before anyone else discovers them and not being able to say anything.

 

LOOOL. Bro Fox hit the nail on it's head.

Skunks never change their stripes.



For the records... Azor's engineering team also deal with the XPS line. Take a look. Nasty reading! Nothing is really called Alienware anymore. Gone! All is Dell. Only the Skull and the letters are left.

 

Good point. If the system is already at its limits, while not being fully unlocked with more room to stretch, then they have even more of a reason to not hold back.

ie... Why bother gimping something that is already at its edge. Just let it fly right? Especially if it's in the red anyways. However, I do get that a lot has to do with warranty etc... But on the flip side that's an oxymoron because why release a glimpsed system and advertise it as it having no compromises?

The better thing for AW/Dell to do is to go about it like locked cell phones do, in providing a code + disclaimer / waiver for the end user. I've mentioned this years ago...

Again, we'll see soon enough about all the gritty details on what the area 51m can and can not do. I forsee it having all the same challenges as previous dtr's, but we may be faced with a few surprises.

Remember, this is not a system made for the purpose of benching. It's a well built gaming laptop that will likely handle normal-high desktop tasks and gaming for the majority.

Even if it's a complete bust, we still have to appreciate the fact that it exists to start this March in the right direction.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. If it is gimped and never gets fixed it will still be better than anything else they have recently done. By virtue of nothing more than the LGA CPU and modular GPU it is a massive improvement without taking performance into consideration. It will outperform all of their past products without breaking a sweat even if it has throttling problems.

While I do not particularly like the aesthetic, the chassis design (materials) is impressive in the photos. I like that all 4 SO-DIMM slots are on the same side of the motherboard, and that there are not only two slots. I love how it is made. It's amazing. The same was true of the Alienware 18. It was amazing. The chassis design and construction was truly a masterpiece. (This chassis has all of the makings of a masterpiece as well.) It just failed on performance. And, for the same reasons there are concerns about this one.

Perhaps it is because overclocking is my fetish that everyone keeps jumping to conclusions and reminding me that it's made for gamers, not for overclocking. I keep repeating myself, but it's not sinking in. The primary concern is whether or not it will perform correctly (no throttling under any circumstances except for overheating) at stock clocks. The fact that the advertised TDP is too low for stock function is a real concern. The fact that they plan to limit it further when the GPU is under load, running stock, is even more of a concern. They did that on the Alienware 18 and it never performed anywhere close to a Clevo with the same specs. Let's hope that it doesn't turn out that way again. Let's also not have our surprised looks on our faces if it does.

 

Btw, "stock" has many forms now. Intel's actual spec is different from what most motherboard manufacturer's are doing.

I think this was a great video at explaining what's going with intel "stock" vs motherboard manufacturer "stock" settings and TDP:

 

And you have seen how Alienwares have been since 2013? I have the last one without BGA hardware. The newer wasn't any better. Aw's engineers even skipped raid for first gen AW BGA early 2015. I don't think you read same threads and posts as me. And I have read them all!

Stock doesn't matter. The laptop can be delivered with an unlocked chips. As well adverticed with High-end overclocking.

 

Indeed, it is their best product yet for sure. It's a beautiful machine with all things considered as a whole. I can see how the rear design would be a hit or a miss, but like with a lot of things it may look better in person than in pictures.

As someone that also obsesses over benching, I can see where you're coming from and always keep that in mind when reading your replies. I get it. The want of there not being any limitations is what I hope sinks into those at the company. They need to understanding this, so if anyone from there is following this thread, please consider the things we are addressing here.

 

The best way to define stock is default core multiplier ratios and default cache ratio. TDP is now based on non-turbo clocks. How much power the CPU uses in turbo mode (when limitations are not imposed through firmware) will vary with bin quality, voltage and operating temperatures. Operating temperature varies based on thermal paste, thermal management component type and quality, and ambient temperatures. That's probably the main reason Intel redefined TDP based on base clocks. They cannot control all of the variables that have nothing to do with the CPU.

The enthusiast and gamer desktop motherboard manufacturers are focused on performance and overclocking capabilities for unlocked processors. Naturally, they are going to incorporate tweaks to get better performance using BIOS defaults to one-up their competition. I'm glad they do that. It keeps things interesting and it is a smart business move for those that do it. It would suck if they all stuck to reference design and Intel suggested values. Big companies like Dell and HP tend to go that route because it's easier than putting your best foot forward and lots cheaper than figuring out what the optimal conditions are. Plus, they have no real marketing appeal to performance enthusiasts. Their focus is ordinary consumers and business machines.

 

"Stock doesn't matter. The laptop can be delivered with an unlocked chips. As well adverticed with High-end overclocking."

This is exactly why I always scratch my head when I see complaints about bga this bga that 45w this only 45w that...when clearly, the advertised specs don't mean that it only runs at those numbers... Every unlocked H chip that I've tuned hits way above the advertised specs.

Also, more power doesn't equal efficiency. When we tune we are not going after the highest wattage, yet the reality involving efficiency is often ignored when shots are fired at mobile components.

 

Stock does matter. If reviewers and users are going to say it throttles even at "stock" clocks then it should be following the intel guidance to make sure its truly stock not things like multi-core enhancement etc. enabled. Desktop motherboards do this.

While I do agree since this is an unlocked K cpu and the laptop is advertised as overclockable, it should be allowed to perform well beyond stock.

Yes, it;s good and bad. It's good for us because we are getting more performance out of the box.

It's bad for people like AMD and reviews and even us when it comes to comparing performance. That video shows how much of a performance difference there can be between running intel spec vs the motherboard manufacturer's settings. So it kinda makes comparing chips more annoying for us too.

At the end of the day if all you care about is overclocking, it doesn't really matter.