*** XMG Apex 15 with Ryzen 3950X / Clevo NH58AF1 Owner's Lounge ***

I am also very interested in that question!
I went with a 3700x and it gets shipped today.

 

Mine got shipped on Tuesday. Now stuck in shipping because of delays at Postnl. FML

 

@Chaker

I expect i will have to wait a while as well.
I assume you ordered at laptopparts4less as well, right?
Do you know when the return-policy ends?
two weeks after shipping or two weeks after receiving the item?

 

Hi,

yes, I also ordered at laptopparts4less. The 2 weeks start at the moment you get the item (this is stated in the WKOA law in the Netherlands)

 

@Chaker Thats very good to know!
Same here in germany.

 

Is it possible to lock voltage/frequency in bios? A 3700X can probably run 3.5GHz at 0.9-0.93V-ish which should yield very good temps and consumption.

 

@taraquin The default BIOS is very restricted.
Probably no voltage changes possible.
This might be possible in the XMG bios tho.
No Virtualization either and no XMP.

 

Yes, I did swap the 3950X for a 3700X. I ran out of thermal paste so I had to use the small 0.6g tube that Clevo included with the laptop.

It still cannot run on auto fans with turbo enabled. Any kind of load causes the fans to ramp up and oscillate. With turbo disabled this does not happen but then you loose out of on single thread performance. Sadly my ObsidianPC Fan Control license was invalidated when I switched the processors.

 

I was able to get Ubuntu 18.04 going on the NH58AF1! Everything is working great other than it feels like Chrome scrolling is choppy. Strangely the "Auto" fans work very well on Linux. Never ramps up on idle even with turbo enabled. Under load it smoothly ramps up to ~50dB when I ran the build benchmark. No oscillating. Why can't it behave this way under Windows?

https://openbenchmarking.org/result/2004304-HU-CLEVONH5894

 

Yep its the one i ordered Wouldve been nice to have a 3900 or 3950 but i value the balance a lot. I want it fast but silent, or close to it Nice info on the CCD, thx!

Awesome! This is very promising Soon enough there will probably be software updates/bios updates/software mods that makes this laptop function well in Win too dont u think? Its obviously capable of doing so hearing about your linux example!

 

The 3700X will do just as well in games as well, still excellent core and thread count.

 

I think it depends on the demand and how much AMD cooperates with Clevo to fix issues. If it is a hot seller then it will be at the top of the priority list for fixes and updates for any request that is reasonable.

Even right now, you can have a quiet machine in Windows with just simply using the Ryzen Performance profile and setting processor min/max state to 99% to disable turbo. It has the effect of locking all of the cores to 3.5ghz @ 0.98v. You could then switch profiles for scenarios where the need for turbo outweighs the extra noise and heat generated. Maybe using Ryzen Master you could come up with a profile using Manual mode that gives the best of both worlds.

 

Hearing how much quieter it runs under Linux is very promising imho
That means the noise-levels are probably just a software-issue.
Something we can fix.

 

I made a little progress with the noise issues tonight after work.

I monitored the CPU in linux and noticed that all of the cores would idle at 2.2ghz, at sub-1v which obviously is the best situation for temps at idle. If one core was loaded it, it and only it, turbos as high as 4.2ghz.

So it seems like the closest power profile that mimics this behavior under windows is the "Ryzen Balanced" profile, specifically with processor min/max state set to 5%/100%, and you have to have the "Power mode (plugged in)" setting in the popup to the middle of the slider, "Better performance". Now, cores do indeed go all the way down to 2.2ghz, but still turbo to 4.2ghz under load. It seems more agressive than under Linux, but still an improvement when using Auto fans mode.

In theory, if this is truly the best mode for this laptop, we can just lock it in place using Group Policy Editor setting a custom active profile so Clevo Control Center set it to the bad windows default one.

 

This got me really excited to try out, but unfortunately all my cores are 3.4ghz+ and using 19w at idle using this procedure. Are there other variables to consider in your setup? Fyi, I'm running without the Clevo Control Center.

 

RE the noise issues, is it possible to change the PPT on this laptop? This would be much better than having to disable turbo. Lowering the PPT has been shown to only minimally degrade performance (no ST losses, minimal MT losses) while massively improving thermals on desktop PCs. This is especially true for the 3900X and 3950. This should be possible with Ryzen Master but obviously a more permanent solution that survives a reboot would be better.

This is a really interesting laptop, hope you guys enjoy.

 

Should work just fine!
Der8auer actually managed to use Ryzen Master to remove the 65W power limit.

 

Yes, you can lower the PPT. However, if you have the Clevo Control Center installed, it will override and reset the PPT values within a few minutes. Without it installed, the settings stick. However, on my system, if turbo is enabled (max proc=100%), the system uses 20w on the cores at idle, on top of the ~27w normal socket usage (47w total). So even if you set a lower PPT (say, 65W), it is still hot and loud at idle. When setting to 99%, the core usage drops to 6w (~33W total), and system is quiet at idle.

I'm not finding a way to get @win32asmguy 's Linux (not planning to install) or Windows results. One core at 4.2ghz and the rest staying at 2.2 sounds great.

 

I did install the latest chipset drivers from AMD (pretty sure you did that too). I am running Clevo Control Center. I had a couple of weird instances the other day where I got stuck in 22W max PPT (maybe from running on battery for 30 minutes to test) and couldn't get it back up to 88W without installing Control Center and reselecting the Performance EC mode.

Windows seems pretty bad with regards to this automatic core speed management. Even crap like Discord's in game overlay causes all cores to remain at 3.6ghz+, without a game running! Chrome seems ok - I can leave it with a few tabs open at it will still drop below 3.0ghz periodically. Do you have any other background tasks that could be holding the cores in an active state?

 

Ok @win32asmguy , here's an apples to apples with Hwinfo64. I was able to replicate your results - one turbo core at 4.2 and the rest low. But look at my PPT with just one core loaded - 55W! My fans are going crazy. What is your PPT when you have one core loaded like this?

 

I was thinking now that the first users already have their notebooks and people are working on solutions to problems we could maybe make a thread in the "Owners Club" Section of the board with all the useful infos collected in one spot.
Like how to fix noisy fans, where to find bios-files, service manuals etc. or listing useful tools like the Obsidian Fan Control utility.

 

PPT is around 35W with one core under load, or 25W if I enable core parking. It seems to only be able to park by CCX groups though, so one group (of 3 for the 3900?) has to always be active. Let me know if it helps!

Hopefully this weekend I can pick up a tube of Kryonaut from Micro Center. I want to try the 3950X again with these new findings. Its a shame the 3900 is OEM only. For ~600 tray price I may as well stick with a 3950X for $100 more.

 

Yeah parking all of the CCXs would be tricky

 

With some more playing around today I had some breakthroughs.

I used ParkControl to unlock hidden power plan options in Windows, and played around with the new settings (there are a lot of them) until I was able to have one core loaded in turbo in Cinebench with PPT < 40w. Unfortunately I couldn't get @win32asmguy 's low PPT values until I did this, but I was thrilled to finally get there. I'm using Ryzen Balanced at "Better Performance" as mentioned before. I'm now idling at 32w PPT even with turbo enabled.

Then I used ZenStates to modify the turbo and the voltage. On auto, all core is limited to 3.6 even if set higher (R20 score 6167), with a PPT of 90W (BIOS limit). However, I was able to use manual mode to get all core @3.9ghz and 1.125v. This also went beyond the BIOS-set PPT, reaching as high as 103W in R20, with a score of 6663. I'm a bit wary of these manual settings, but I got through 30min of Prime95 at 91 degrees, and multiple cycles of R20 didn't go beyond 95C. I got hard resets at 1.08v, so am keeping it at 1.125. The good thing about ZenStates is that you can set it to start with Windows, unlike Ryzen Master.

Finally, I also purchased the Obsidian Fan Control, which helps me keep the fans at bay at idle. That is much easier now that my turbo PPT is so much lower. I can idle at almost silent at 60 degrees now.

I'm feeling much more excited about this laptop now! Fast when I want it to be, and quiet but still fast when I want it to be - perfect!

 

To all the people who already got their units.

Could you check the bios version you got on your devices?

 

Brian Crawford: Try allcore 3.8 or 3.7 and see what voltage you get. That will probably improve consumption, temp and noise a lot. Stats from testing in CB15 5 runs on my desktop 3600, avg score, temp and consumption:
4.0 1.135V 55C 70W 1590
3.9 1.09V 54C 64W 1550
3.8 1.045V 51C 60W 1510
3.7 1.01V 50C 56W 1470
3.6 0.98V 49C 54W 1430
Stock:
3.95 1.3V 66C 90W 1550

 

I am glad you were able to improve your idle and single core thermals. So with parking enable, does it essentially reduce power draw on 9 of the 12 cores down to almost nothing under single core load? Then you only have 2 cores at ~1W and a single core at ~10W (hopefully at close to advertised turbo speeds, although I have read that the package temp has to be below 75C in order for it to get that extra 200mhz).

I would not suggest running at > 88W TDP sustained, at least until we have more details on the VRM. It may be out of spec and cause it to prematurely fail. I am surprised the cooling system can even keep it under the 95C throttling threshold at that level of TDP.

 

They are easier to cool that their Intel counterparts. Has anyone taken the heatsink off and looked at the VRMs?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ydrz7fl1je84ms/IMG_20200503_164952.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ga1l0s4qo0whd2/IMG_20200503_165026.jpg?dl=0

Sorry about the photo quality. I took those with my phone while swapping parts. Not sure about the specs of the VRM, other than it looks like it has 3 phases for the CPU, 2 phases for RAM, 6 phases for GPU, 2 phases for VRAM. This is where having access to Appendix B in the service manual would be super handy.

 

This is why I was so hardcore about finding it in it’s entirety.

 

Version 1.07.02LS1, dated 3/11/20

Here are my numbers. The first voltage is what I set it to in ZenStates, and the second voltage is what HWMonitor reports it downvolting to during all core load.

3.8ghz 1.081v (1.031v) R20 6599, 87C, 92W
3.7ghz 1.063v (1.025v) R20 6440, 85C, 89W

Here's the result with one core loaded at 3.7ghz with my parking settings:



The auto function in ZenStates is not behaving well in getting single core up to full turbo, most likely because of my parking settings. So I can't show you a full 10W on the single core at the moment. But honestly, 4W on a core for 3.7ghz is much better in my book than 10W for 4.2ghz. I'd rather have the heat down.

Thanks for the tip - won't be doing that again.

 

@Brian Crawford could you share your specific settings for obsidian fan control?

EDIT: Or pretty much everything you have changed.

Would love to try it for myself!

 

Brian Crawford: I think you should be able to lower voltages quite a bit more which will bring down temp and consumption quite a bit. 1.05V or a bit lower should be doable on 3.8 and 1.02V or a bit lower on 3.7.

 

Fiddled around with mine today.
It was pretty loud with the stock clevo thermal paste, so i cleaned and repasted with Coolermaster Mastergel Maker.
...which wasnt any quieter.

I thought i must have had airpockets in my thermalpaste or something, so i redid it.
Still changed nothing.

 

Brian Crawford:
Tested a bit further on my desktop:
3.3 0.91V* 46W 28.3ppW
CB15 1300 45C

3.4 0.93V 47W 28.7ppW
CB15 1350 46C

3.5 0.955V 51W 27.1ppW
CB15 1380 46C

*Lowest voltage during load allowed is 0.9V which happends allcore on [email protected], so I guess with my CPUs best performance vs frequency happends at 3.35GHz@ 0.92V-ish.

 

I think my 3950X can do 3.5ghz @ 0.945v but I should probably do more stability testing. Is there a desktop overclocking process guide you follow when doing these tests?

 

I just started mine up for the first time and holy moly it’s loud! Applied carbonaut to the CPU and kryonaut to the GPU ic diamond should be here soon today for my temp shootout!

 

Have you tried using ZenStates or Ryzen Master to set it manually to 3.5ghz @ 0.95v or so? The fan fluctuations at idle stop with static voltage. With the repaste you could probably also go up to say 4.1ghz @ 1.15v. It is too bad AMD doesn't make a better binned single chiplet 3700X like the 3950X. That would be ideal in a machine like this or a SFF desktop.

 

@win32asmguy Oh i definitely tried, i just have no idea what im doing mate!

I always used to use BIOS/UEFI for this kinda stuff. These tools are completely unfamiliar to me, as is the terminology used and the options available.

Tried to find a guide online, but the only ones i found were for older versions and the menues, layouts and descriptions for buttons and drop-down lists have changed since.

I am just not familiar enough with those tools to just go ahead and flick a few switches and see what makes it tick.

 

Oh.

1. Open Ryzen Master
2. Choose Profile 1
3. Click "Manual" (options are Default/PBO/Auto OC/Manual)
4. Click the little icon to lock all core speeds to be the same
5. Type a speed in one of the core boxes, like 3500
6. Set "Peak Voltage" to 0.95v (or maybe 1v just to start off with)
7. Choose Apply and Test at the bottom
8. Test it for a few minutes in CBR20, and tweak from there. If you reach too far you can bluescreen, reboot, etc. So best to have a system restore point created before hand in case something gets corrupted.

Hope it helps. Once you find a setting you like, then you can set it to auto-load on startup using ZenStates.

 

I wanted to use Zenstates since it can set things automatically at boot and still has the option to clock down.
I know how to use Ryzen Master. Plenty of guides out there. Sadly nothing like that for Zenstates tho.

 

Only apply clocks/volts in Bios, test in CB15 5 runs and try lowering volts if stable, raise if unstable

 

Here are some settings:



Regarding my settings for the hidden Power Plan options... I have no idea if these are ideal. Since these are hidden options that were only unlocked via ParkControl, I haven't found any guides on how to mess around with these variables. I was messing with them in the dark. All I know is that these settings worked to give me cool and quiet idle and single core results. I wish that Windows made these settings accessible by default.

I think we're actually getting similar results. I noted a discrepancy between the voltage I entered into ZenStates and the voltage that is actually used during all core. My 1.063v at 3.7 in ZenStates turns into 1.025v during all core. When I decrease the former voltage, the latter decreases too. One more step down and I crash. So I may be actually getting the 1.02v you mentioned at 3.7.

 

@Brian Crawford Brilliant! Those settings in zenstates confuse me tho. I haven't the slightest idea what those "/4" mean.
I imagine the settings would be different for 3700x than they would be for your 3900?
Which ones would you go for and why?

Did you remove Clevo Center? It keeps resetting my power plan to "Balanced" at boot.

and concerning the GPU, is undervolting there even possible at all?
EDIT: I think @Chaker will find your post very helpful, too.

 

I tried so hard to figure out what the /4 meant, to no avail. No one in the forums I found were discussing that option, and I couldn't figure out what it changed. The most important parts are just the multiplier and the voltage - and going manual in the first place. The PPT/TDC/EDC settings do nothing - the dev says he hasn't found how to make them work with Zen2. Very much a beta.

Yes, I uninstalled the Clevo Center and never looked back.

I haven't tried anything with the GPU. A lot of tools don't even recognize this 2070 yet, since it is an updated variant.

 

@Brian Crawford Ah okay. I thought that was me doing something wrong when MSI Afterburner showed fairly little info.

Everything works very differently on a notebook compared to a desktop. Definitely a lot more work and a lot to learn.

 

The 2 phases you see will be SOC by my guess, you could check if you have a multimeter. What do the numbers read on the chip, I can see they are MPKK but can't read the rest.

 

Looks like the XMG site has posted some drivers for their variant. There wasn't anything on this page previously. No new BIOS yet. Looks like their Clevo Center went from 2.15 to 2.18.

 

Hello,
Sorry for interfering but I have a quick question. I am in the market for a clevo (model NH55) laptop with an AMD desktop processor and I am in doubt of which to choose. I'll mainly use the device for work (Photoshop, Corel gis apps, cad(Archicad, autocad), 3ds max and Lumion).
I found this thread by accident and I am now oscillating between 3700x and 3900x (paired with rtx 2060) but seeing the temps problem I kind of got a little scared of investing 7 months worth of scholarship in such a device. I know my post does not really fit in here but couldn't find anything on my model number and I do need to move fast since my laptop died and I have to continue my thesis.
Thanks a lot,
Silviu.

 

@Mark0 , this system is going to be future-proof for your use cases for a long time. I was scared as well about the temps and noise at first, but I've found tools to tame the beast. See my previous posts in this thread where I narrated my progress. I'm now happily doing office tasks at 39db and 59C, and have brought down the turbo curve so I'm below 90C and not even using full fans during all core. Yes, it can get loud during all core (60db for me now), but that's the price to pay for a heavy workload and all these cores. Maybe get headphones and don't render 3dsmax during quiet business meetings