*** Official Clevo P870TM Owner's Lounge! ***

not sure how EC/bios mod work, since i dont do reverse engineering nor am i specialized in software/hardware programming i wouldn't know but i could guess from logic.

say EC has a table of some values clevo made up, surely he can change those values and test them. as to how it affects the machine or bricks it, he wont know unless its tested. or adding additional values etc. the software CCC only gives 3 options, silent/default/overclocked i believe where as the software john@obsidian and the guy from baidu show a lot more value so im sure there are ways to go around it.

also a software that can be used in windows will always be much more practical than changing bios settings that requires shutdown/reboot etc.

@Johnksss does throttlestop showing higher temp than hwinfo64 on your laptop? hwinfo cpu cores shows about 3-5C lower on average than TS, but it has a temperature sensor for CPU package which is about same as TS, and its always constantly 3-5C higher than the cores. it's hard to think IMC/cache/iGPU on the die is hotter than the core.

 

Yes, I kind of figured that already. And I should have narrowed my comment down to people I had actually talked to and saw said programs working instead of generalizing it. I can't comment on your 1500 dollar laptop. The main reason why I ask them is because when reading in the forums I see a lot of folks voicing their concerns about these high end programs not working. Then it's like....Well, these other folks are making it work. What could be so vastly different. Maybe when you get time, shoot me a project file and i'll see if that give them issues. (Depends on the program and who I know who may have the same software. Maybe I can knock a few of them off their high horse's. Also to add. None of them are using on board graphics - Desktop and laptops).

I may have spoke a bit hastily before when assuming you used Autocad or Solidworks. My bad there. I know you have mentioned it before, but I would have to go back and look it up.

As to the Acer.....Can't comment there. To many unmentioned variables to draw a conclusion. Although, if you had the NVIDIA Quadro M1200 (4GB GDDR5), things may have been a little different. Also Hotwell is still... well.... hot.


@ole!!!

Yes, there seems to be a slight difference at times. Not sure if it's a polling thing or not though.

 

That one acer had a 860m GPU... Quite disappointing through and through

I don't do Autocad or Solidworks actually. I am trained in both, but using neither for my actual work.

I use a ton of CSP, Photoshop, Video Rendering, Compiling of software, and a ton of madVR. Also tons of batch processing of batches of very large resolution images and such. I do game development, and some software tinkering for video rendering, especially tinkering with madVR, a video render which does upscaling in real time.

Image processing, and manipulation can be considerably heavier than most people expect, once you surpass a certain number of layers or a certain resolution

For most people, Clevo P775DM3-G would be pretty strong and they would have a pretty hard time going above its processing power in real life scenarios. I still remember waiting for ~1 - 2 hours for rendering a 10 seconds video though... Having a better CPU surely speeds that up.

 

@Georgel
Yep, that was it. I knew it was quite a few other things other than what i'm use to seeing.
So I will totally give that to you!

At least it was 1 to 2 hours. Now I do have someone else that does video editing and his laptop took 10.5 hours to render the job using the cpu. While my laptop completed the whole project in less that 22 minutes. That includes burning the DVD. Something like a 1 hour video if I remember correctly. We stopped it the first time because I thought it was a mistake. That was with a 6700K

 

wtf what kind of video is that rofl. 8k with like zillion bit colors AVI not compressed?

 

1080 SLI is only really for benching and a couple of titles, a single well clocked 1080ti is more efficient per FPS and when you take frame times into account will come out ahead. One limitation is that 3dmark does not take frame times into account.

 

A few things wrong with that opinion....

1080 SLI is not just for benching.

As to the Efficient theory. I can't really answer that whole questions since it's a loaded one. It's true, that very very few games can match exactly double the frames using more than 1 card. That is pretty much a 99% given. But looking at the first two videos I pulled up randomly pretty much throw that frame times scenario right out the window.



Now do the same thing with an experienced optimizer and it gets even uglier for the single 1080 TI until you come across a game that is flat out for a single GPU. Then I guess you could take your statement and reverse engineer it to fit a 1080 out optimizing a 1080 TI on stock clocks and throttling and call that a win for the over clocked 1080..... Speculations of course....

 

Oh, you know that feeling of waiting for video rendering

Same is when processing 8K images, like 8000x4000 pixels, really long waiting times for processing them

FHD video but crazy settings for compression of data, all while keeping the quality as close as possible visually to the RAW file. Basically, it is doable with the right codecs and such, but if a 10 second video is almost 1 GB RAW, my 10 second video is less than 20MB after proper rendering and such. This workload may be slightly different from what most people do with those laptops... (?)

 

So 22 minutes and 10,5 hours mean your 6700k is 30 times faster . His cpu maybe ancient lol

 

Not maybe, but a 100 percent yes. First gen I 7 BGA edition that was never really maintained. So that is why I can see the story from both sides of the fence.

@Georgel
Yep, but not at 4K or 8K though, that was only 1080P.

 

On satellite internet so won't be watching lots of videos but is that 1080ti Vs 1080ti sli? That would be a different scenario.

 

No my friend. That is exactly what the discussion was about. 1080 SLI vs 1080 TI OC. I threw in a 980 TI SLI vs 1080 TI as well.

 

Ok, i'll check that out when I get back then.

 

I know that this laptop is old news for many and I am way too late to the party but I thought I'd share my experiences anyway, pros and cons... Deep down I think I feel the need to share the joy of having such a powerful machine and since none of my friends are actually interested, willing to listen, enjoy and feel happy for me... here I am.

I'll put my config in the sig after writing this but since I still have my P870DM that I used with joy for the last 2.5 years and I will still be using I will compare this P870TM with it.

Pro
1. Display (AU Optronics B173ZAN01.0) : I never had an 4k display on a laptop before and I was very skeptic getting one (too many reasons to put them here) but since the alternative was an TN panel (although pretty good) and since I need this laptop for work also I took a chance and got it. I DON'T regret it one bit. The colors are wonderfull, good brightness for a well lit room, very little light bleeding, viewing angles great as usual for an IPS, brightness distribution is one of the best I've seen so far if not the best. The brightness also goes way down if needed so reading at night on this screen is great. The one thing that I don't like is the fact that the matte coating is a bit too heavy for my liking.
2. Soundcard : FINALLY a Clevo laptop with a good headphone amp. I don't use many headphones with high impedance directly on the laptop but I frequently use my Bayerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 Ohm. For the old P870DM it was a struggle to push them even if they only have 80 Ohm.... the P870TM finally has the power to drive them without an issue. Sound quality wise I did not noticed a big upgrade from the old laptop.
3. Fingerprint : The previous laptop had that swipe FP style that was very finicky for me, it worked 2 out of 10 tries at best.... the new one does not require to swipe and it works every time... it's also very fast.
4. Good webcam and very good mics, same as P870DM
5. Love the chassis, catches almost no fingerprints, big and bulky but with very good cooling for the components inside, RAM, Sata drives, m.2 drives (that's rare)
6. CPU fan surprisingly quiet at idle and under load for stock i7 8086k - I did not had the time to OC because I am dealing with other issues right now, read below

Cons.
1. Bios and to be more specific the GPU fan behavior - HORRIBLE. I got decent heatsinks (GPU and CPU), so the temps are ok overall... nothing to write home about but I know what bad heatsinks and temps looks like... so the heatsinks are not to blame this time.
Scenario 1 : Let's say I fire up a game, Overwatch, in 4k with epic settings and the fans are on Auto... the GPU heat builds up to 80-85C where it levels... this takes about maybe 3-5 minutes ... all this time fans barely spin at 10-20%... the laptop is insanely quiet... after 3-5 minutes the fans ramp up slowly but surely to 80-90%, noise gets to 60-63 decibels (very loud), brings the GPU temp down to 71-74C but the fan noise and speed remains the same even if the GPU temp has dropped a lot. After I exit the game, the GPU fans stay at the same insane level for 5-8 minutes even if the temps are in the 40C after 2-3 minutes. All this time the CPU temp does not get past 55C and the CPU fan is low and silent.
Scenario 2 : I undervolted the GPU with MSI Afterburner, all went ok, shaved at least 8C from the GPU temps, the behavior is the same... heat builds up to 77C, laptop extremely silent, after 5 minutes fans go mad, temp drops to 65, fans are still mad and very loud as long as I game no matter the GPU temp.
Scenario 3 : I underclocked and undervolted the GPU to 1500Mhz and 800mV ....as expected got even lower GPU temps but the Fans behavior is the same... the noise and fan speed is insane (80-90%) and useless for the temps that I have.... and I can only blame the bios.
Scenario 4: I installed Control Center hoping that it will manager better the fans on Auto... no luck. The only way to have some decent noise and an adequate response from the fans was to use the CC Custom fan settings... this way the fan speed ramp up in an more appropriate fashion and respond better to the registered temps.
2. GPU Fan noise at IDLE, too much noise compared to P870DM, GPU fans way to high at idle even if the temps are 42-47C

Is there any better version of the BIOS, right now I have (stock Clevo BIOS) :
ME FW Version : 11.8.50.3425
Bios Version : 1.05.05
KBC/EC Firmware Revision : 1.05.04

 

Try obsidian fan control app for pure temp based fan control
I have 4K with external 4K attached most of the time which clocks primary gpu at ~1330mhz/36W and spin the gpu1 fan up and it would sit on ~50C. I was able to tweak fan speeds so it idles a couple C warmer, spins gpu2 fan a bit higher, but gpu1 fan lower, and quieter overall

Edit: thread link http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/clevo-drivers-update-utility-by-obsidian-pc.801464

 

Thanks for the hint !
I did have a look the app looks promising but unfortunately it does not read my CPU temp and it can't control the CPU Fan... for the time being... must be a bug.
The price for the app is a bit steep but most likely it's the only viable option in my case since I don't have any access to a @Prema bios for my laptop.

@Prema will you be so kind and maybe sell me a copy of your bios (or install it yourself remotely) when this machine is EOL and the dealers are not selling it anymore?

 

This is probably the source of your problems

 

Yes, this was my conclusion from the start but unfortunately nothing i can do much about it for the time being.... it all depends of @Prema now

 

Have you played with the fan profiles in the control centre to make them more aggressive?

 

this is what you need mate. http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/something-interesting.821471/

 

Looks interesting, thanks, but i could not download it... it asks you to install a DLer or some kind, then asks to make an account to be able to download the app... all written in Chinese... I gave up

 

lol u dont need to register nor download the downloader. but yes it took me awhile to download it properly and use it. if only the original uploader doesn't mind then I could reload it else where for you but I got no permission. try asking him @xwhmm

 

I have to put this on the CONS section of my micro P870TM review because I just found out and it's a pretty big negative for me and also for people that run this machine a lot so the dust gets in fast.
Being such a powerful machine (with strong fans that suck air and dust fast) dust accumulation happens quickly and messes up with cooling performance pretty fast.

Short version:
You CAN'T properly clean up the fans because 2 out of 3 are impossible to take out unless you take out the heatsinks and then you need to repaste also some thermal pads gets damaged and you need to replace them.

Long version:
If you want to clean up the CPU heatsink and fan it's not an easy task anymore, you can't just unscrew the 3 screws surrounding the fan and take the fan out, now the fan it attached to the heatsink so you need to take the whole assembly out, and after that you need to take the fan out and clean everything. Also this means you need to repaste everything and also, most likely, replace the thin thermal pad on the CPU heatsink, the 0.5mm one because it's so thin it gets damaged easily, mine had tears in it from just 1 repaste. I guess you can reuse it but I am pretty sure that it will not make a proper contact and heat transfer will be a lot worse.

On the GPU side if you have 1 GPU like me, you can take 1 fan out easily but the second fan you can't take it out because one of 3 screws that hold the fan in place is under one of the GPU heatpipes so you need to take out the GPU heatsink. The problem with that is that they put some really strange thermal pads on the RAM chips that you definitely need to replace because it kinda tear itself apart when you take the heatsink apart for the first time.

Overall cleaning is possible of course but it takes a lot of time and once you have some sweet temps given by some good repaste you kinda don't want to mess with it again... but you are forced to.

 

Just out of curiosity, could you clean the fans, without removal, by removing the lid and just using some thin pipe cleaners give the blades and fins a good once over?

Then, with any left-overs anyone can "make some friends" -

Spoiler: pipe cleaner pets

 

You can take the lid out from the GPU fan (the one that you can't take out due to inaccessible screw) and you should be able to clean it pretty good ...

Unfortunately not so great news for the CPU fan... the lid screws are on the underside... so you have to take the whole heatsink out, turn it over and then access the fan lid screws to take it apart and clean it up, repaste, check the thin VRM thermal pad, replace it if needed, put all back, check for temps.

 

cleaning isnt a problem tbh, you get a compressed air can and take off the bottom lid. blow it through each of the fan and watch dust fly. then you take that air can and blow it through the back of each vents and watch dust fly, then blow through the fan again and its all clean.

as for CPU fan, you could simply separate the copper piece thats attached to CPU heatsink. that additional copper piece is meant for extra heat capacity which imho its pretty damn useless given on how its taking up the left over heat from radiator portion. more so if you got the fan control software, heat will never get a chance to flow there if you leave the fan running at 10-20% on idle.

for GPU heatsink if you have vapor chamber heatsink for single or SLI GPU.. well thats the choice it comes with. if its single GPU, you could get dual fan heatsink thats not vapor chamber and you wouldnt need to disassemble the heatsink.

 

Bah humbug Compressed air, you say?
Real men use this. Thanks to @Johnksss Or was it @Meaker@Sager ?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001U899HQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

That would be me. Been using those for a long time. They work great for clearing out cobwebs or clearing water from hard to reach spots on wheels as well. Great tool to anyone's chest of tools.

 

Why make it so damn difficult? I use my mod U3 notebook cooler with fan filter. Dust is almost a no topic. And the laptop fans don't need to work as hard.

Spoiler: U3 Notebook cooler with fan filter

All todays notebooks have huge bottom grills.

 

My Fan Control now uses it's own internal engine to get CPU Temp you should not have any problem getting reading
You can use it or try other engines like Core Temp / OHM if you already use them for something else.

 

This is what I use for mine, temperature sensitive fans ramp up as the vents get hotter. I used 2x 140mm corsair ML fans.

 

thats all pretty cool, now next one please bring up peltier cooling thanks and sell it to me.

 

I told everyone how things are with this model and what i don't like about it and people should know what to expect when it comes to cleaning... I did not make it difficult, they did so please don't pick on me. Believe it or not but i take this beast away with me frequently and most of the time i don't carry an cooling pad and from my experience dust builds up fast unless you always keep at home on a custom made dust filtering cooling pad.

 

Direct contact cooling on a metal chassis is something I have considered.

 

most contact on chassis cooling dont help, unless its contact to the intake area. say peltier cooling contact to intake before air coming in, air passing through should be a bit cooler and used to cool heatsink.

issue is chassis intake area is so thin air passes through so fast making it almost pointless. which is why with peltier cooling if built into a cooling pad needs it's own heatsink with much larger surface area to push cooler air before entering laptop.

 

Most don't, but if you have a metal chassis with high performance thermal pad contact both sides you could do something.

You are better off with the air conditioning setups have than the peltier as the condensation issues are not quite as bad.

 

AC isn't portable. get a decent peltier laptop cooler drop temp by 15c and dont have to worry about any condensation, assuming ambient is well above 23-25c. issue is building one, shouldnt be that hard tho, except it'll look ugly as hell.

 

You were talking about dropping the ambient air temp on input. Anything sub ambient will cause condensation. Peltiers also require a lot of extra power and cooling so at the very least its going to add a lot of bulk.

 

Did I misunderstand your point?

Given a constant humidity level, while I've noticed condensation on a sitting glass of ice water in a hot environment, I've never seen a glass of hot tea or water produce condensation in a cold environment.

 

You have a hot plate and a cold plate. Your hot side will need addition cooling from a heatsink and fan, your cold plate will be subambient. You are then making cooler air than ambient and passing it into the machine, this will mix with other air inside the machine and can cause condensation.

 

Because instead it produces steam: heating the air next to a hot surface causes the opposite of condensation - evaporation

 

Ahh, but TBH, I've yet to see a steaming laptop in my lifetime, as I don't usually encounter machines with temps 100C or above. The components won't evaporate, so that's not the problem, And unless there's a fan or case failure, I'm not sure of any internal air staying inside long enough where it would have an evaporation effect. The moisture is already in a gaseous state. In my hot tea example, the majority of the steam is coming from the liquid in the tea which has turned into a gaseous state because it already > 100C, and it slightly condenses when hitting colder air, the air moisture in the air adjacent to the tea is not causing the steam. Note, all of this assumes the air has been conditioned, so extreme humidity is not in question.

But with these new type BGA systems, where temps are going through the roof, maybe that gives a new meaning to a new steaming pile of #$@&%*! junk in the arctic environments.

 

Yep. I don't think many people actively think that air consists of water vapor / atoms which can combine into water

 

Yes. You just described condensation.

In regards to evaporation, that means there is a liquid water source inside to begin with, and it eventually is heated above boiling. The components won't be liquid until a much higher temp, so it won't be that. Assuming there is air flow inside a computer case (of conditioned, normal humidity based air), there isn't any water that is evaporating in the first place.

For example, if I took a block of ceramic or metal heated to 100C, and placed it in the middle of a cool air flow, what would happen? The evaporation inside a laptop or computing device is what I fail to grasp.


In any case, this is tangential, just pondering on these things... Back to the topic at hand.

 

As an engineer, you caught my attention. From what I could quickly see on the internet (search term: condensation due to passive cooling laptop), the temperature differential between inside and outside of the laptop is small compared to the amount of entrained moisture being carried. Warmer temps carry more moisture. However, there is no source of moisture other than environmental outside of the laptop, and that air is at a lower temperature.

An interesting wrinkle occurs if the interior temperature is cold (from being stored in a cold car during the winter). Bring the laptop inside, and start exposing the interior to warm, humid air.

 

Excellent point. The cooler air outside the enclosure cannot hold as much moisture as warm air. If anything as the air warms inside (again assuming it is inside the enclosure long enough), it would actually excite the molecules more causing more evaporation to occur (meaning the inside air woud hold more moisture). About the only point I can see where condensation would occur would be near the outside vents where the air escapes then enclosure and smacks into cooler components like the shell of the case.

 

Cold air mixes with the warm, the warm will have some water vapor fall out (it's not all just immediately mixed) as it cools.

 

Yep. Condensation. And that would happen outside an enclosed computer / laptop away from the heat source of the CPU, GPU, memory, SSD, etc., where it can cool, and not on the inside.

 

If you intend to pipe the air into the fan intake then it's going all over the heatsinks and dripping right onto the VRMs.

 

Are you talking about pushing cold air into a heated source?

If you intend to pipe very cold or chilly conditioned air directly into the fan intake of a laptop or computer with air cooling, when that cold air is "going all over the heatsinks", then that will be a very big win for keeping temps down, as the cool air will absorb the heat and, if evaporation occurs, take any moisture with it. I've never heard the term "dripping" used to describe the effect of cold air absorbing and removing heat from a computer system before.

If you're trying to suggest that cold, conditioned air will condense inside a warmed up laptop or computer, that is incorrect. Perhaps @Mr. Fox can post some of those great pics where he put his laptop directly on those old hotel based air-conditioners or where he rigged up an air conditioning unit to pipe chilled air directly into the laptop.


However, if you're talking about taking steam or other super heated and high humidity air, and piping it into a computer or laptop that is idle, meaning the heatsinks and other components are significantly cooler than that air's temp, then yes, condensation may occur inside the case.