Guest Editorial: Apple "MehBooks" and the Future of Macs

50 pages already lol. BTW:

50$ REBATE for MB and $100 REBATE for MBP.

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check out my thread here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

 

Truth be told, there is no such thing as unbiased. Only degrees of bias.

Everything is, of course, relative. I tried to echo those sentiments in this thread. But it's not an easy thing for everyone to look at a comparison or judgment and take what they really need from it. Can the article be a bad thing? I don't think so ultimately. Sure it ruffles feathers because it inadvertently takes a shot at those who own a MAC. If someone buys a Dell for $500 less and is dissatisfied with it, well they only paid $500. Now that's not to disparage paying $500 for a notebook. It may be what is in their means. But if they pay $500 more for a MAC and are dissatisfied, they took more of a risk and will be all the more dissatisfied. There's nothing that inherently says that they will be guaranteed satisfaction with a MAC as there is nothing that says they will be with a Dell or HP. Is there a likelihood? Sure. depends on their needs and experiences.

I'd rather someone live within their means and be satisfied or less dissatisfied, armed with useful info, than worry about rubbing owners of another more expensive laptop the wrong way. I always tend to buy expensive notebooks and never have a need to justify my purchases to those who can't afford it or think I spent too much. I have my reasons, some well thought out, others born of desire for having made my purchase. I've read posts or reviews that alledgedly or seeming unfairly compare what I own with things of lesser value or price. But I understand the author's desire to cut through the hype that the computer manufacturers put out in order to entice people to buy things they otherwise don't need or won't use to it's fullest potential. And that I appreciate.

My concern: that people have the best computing experience that best fits their needs, desires, and budgets.

 

Very week with my standard.

 

Han,you know what laptop did I bought?

 

Did u do that test with dropping your thinkpad?? No, thats what I thought so

 

nope. I just wish I didn't have a fever so I can come here more often and fight the justice among those pc bandits

 

I like the new MacBook, but I won't think much of it if it didn't run OS X....

Ugh, I just hope Apple decides to release their OS to third party manufacturers someday.

 

The whole point of unbiased (by unbiased I mean as little bias as possible) reviews is to reduce the "risk" involved with your purchased. It's true that every little bit helps - even a biased review will at least give you a picture of what you're going to get so you're not risking everything, but even honest bias can be harmful in that it can convince you to buy something that is not optimal for your own personal needs.

It's like an advertisement. Marketing works almost completely on the principle of creating a bias in the heads of viewers towards a certain product, even if they might be happier with something else. Similarly, putting down the new MacBook simply because it doesn't give you enough GHz for the $ can be potentially harmful (yes, harmful) to clueless buyers because it can convince them that it's not worth the money, while failing to mention any of the important features that make it uniquely valuable.

A less biased comparison would give credit to the new features like the aluminum shell, clickable glass touchpad, etc. and at least admit that while the reviewer personally does not value these features, some people do (especially after they've tried them).

 

I dropped my thinkpad many times so I know how it is. Say all you want but facts are facts, magnesium alloy is better than aluminum. Business-class notebooks are designed to stand against abuses. Macbook (pro) is not.You probably never own a thinkpad or use a business-class notebook, so I don't feel like arguing with you about this. Feel free to pm JerryJ and ask him for his comment. If you say the new Macbook is better than other consumer-range I may agree, but there is a line between Apple laptops and business-class laptops. \
There is a reason why the most durable laptop (not thinkpad or Latitude) uses magnesium alloy construction.
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There's not much to disagree with in the above. The only thing is how to value by comparison the extra and unique features? How do they uniquely enhance the user's experience? Will it be a universal enhancement or a personal subjective one? Hard to say. Is it worth a mention? Sure. Is it harmful if left out in a baseline comparison? No. Because those comparative notebooks have other unique qualities above their baseline that might be worth considering but are beyond the scope of the editorial.

That's why a baseline comparison, especially a baseline economic comparison is an excellent starting point and what the OP endeavored to illuminate.

Apple puts those innovative features in their notebooks in order to charge the premium that they do. But are they and OSX universally and intrinsically worth the premium? Pragmatically speaking, no. They are certainly worth more but not what they are charging in real dollar terms. But so what? Honestly. You're paying for the innovation and experience that only a MAC can provide.

But this editorial isn't about extolling the virtues of the MAC experience. It's about hard economic realities. And it will only appeal to those who are concerned with the economics of notebooks. It will dissuade those who need dissuading from purchasing a MAC or at least give pause to consider and investigate further. It will not mislead by any malicious intent, implied or expressed, one who is looking for the unique MAC experience. A cursory comparative done by a prospective consumer on their own, be they savvy or otherwise, will note the cosmetic and feature differences of a MAC versus a PC. They will figure out quickly that, that is what accounts for the price difference. This editorial will make those who are uneasy about the price, think twice about their needs relative to their desires.

I can buy a notebook for under $1000. And the economics suggests that I should. But I have advanced needs that require advanced feature sets that only come with notebooks >$2000.

 

Apple does charge a premium price on all their products, but it is not necessary a lot more expensive than the counterpart pc laptops. Why not complain about Sony VAIO laptops which I find to be even worse in terms of being over-charged. They do not even develop their own software or OS and their designs are pretty much on-par with Apple, and still people buy them feeling that the price they are paying for are justified. Go and compare a macbook with the new VAIO SR or Z laptops.

 

A glass trackpad is novelle, but cheap - a few cents. Is it that much better than plastic? Multi-touch is software and could be deployed on existing hardware.

The aluminum is also very cheap. As is the (probable) CNC method of manufacturing it. Like most aluminum it is soft and dents easy. Annodizing it and heat treating can make the surface a bit more resilient to small dings and dents - but it is what it is. The lightness and stiffness of the case is cool.

Cold or hot forging is not that expensive either. Look at a $100 aluminum bicycle crank. The technology to make it far exceed what is required for the new Apples.

Let me assure you however that Apple is profitting tremendously from these units.

Anyways, I won't be buying an Apple notebook at these prices. If you folks think the value is good, you will buy them and prove me wrong. The only vote that counts in this arguement is the one you place with your dollars.

 

That's what I've been telling people, but they just won't listen because of the hype of "aluminum"

 

While aluminum is cheap (and in fact cheaper than the petroleum based polycarbonate casing on the previous MacBook), the method is not cheap. It's essentially a billet process, and there is so much excess scrap that it destroys any material savings. That's why billet isn't used in any mass form, only for specialized situations requiring high strength and low weight. This is really the first time I've seen this process used in a mass-market situation.

So while it may not be as "innovative" as Apple would suggest, that doesn't mean it's not still expensive.

 

Why do diehard pc users think that they are so right in saying that macbooks are such godawful machines? What does it matter to you if someone buys a macbook or not?

 

No body said it wasn't
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1325598&postcount=106

 

Wait, admittedly I haven't read every single post. But who, en masse is saying that they are "godawful" machines? From the posts I've read, they're simply saying that their intrinsic value doesn't line up with their price by comparison. That's not to say that their overall value is subpar.

Macs don't suck. They are actually very good machines coupled with OSX. And I do recommend them for certain people.

Sure, everyone could live and let live, but what do we learn from doing such a thing? Just take the MAC critique with a rational eye. No computer is above reproach.

 

Of course, I agree that for the average consumer, a mac doesn't make sense. We discussed the value of macs way back, and its generally true that the hardware doesn't match up with its PC equivalents. But if you have the money to splurge, want a nice looking machine with an excellent operating system, then a mac falls into your range of options.

 

Time to chime in. This thread has been an interesting twist on the tired Mac/PC thing. There are still fanboys on both sides not interested in critical objective thinking but it's a given that will always be the case. Refreshingly, some of the posters have contributed some sound reasoned commentary. Kudos to the OP on the topic and their ownership / experience background to give it some credibility.

The Mac phenomenon is a great example of a company influencing its customer base not so much on facts but on disinformation and the need for many to identify with a specific group image. This causes logic and common sense to take a back seat to the need of establishing perceived personal status based on a brand association. Apple marketing has done an exceptional job of identifying and exploiting this age old need. The observations and commentary of the OP illustrate this very well.This is not to say that Apple doesn't offer some compelling products. Apple has brought needed choice and competitive forces to the marketplace which benefits everyone.

The thread subject matter on the new MacBooks does a decent job of illustrating how many do respond to form over function. Other posters have tried doing direct comparisons so my contribution involves my HP 6930P. This is a perfect example of the value provided re: cost and a very fair comparison.

I paid aprox $1400 Canadian (plus taxes) for the HP 6930P. This notebook is built to a military design spec that uses aluminum and magnesium case materials, spill resistant keyboard, and active hard drive protection. You get the much better HP business 3 yr warranty and support system included which is much different than the support channel provided in their consumer series products. Model specifics:

Intel C2D P8600
2GB RAM
160GB HD (7200rpm)
6 Cell Li-I
Vista Bus.
Webcam w/built in mic (works great)
DVDRW (Lightscribe)
ATI 3450 Discreet Graphics, 256MB GDDR3

You also get every port including all the ones left out of the Macbooks as well as a matte screen option. There are two choices built in re: pointing devices that includes a well done trackpad and a pointing stick ala Thinkpads. Then there is the built in docking station port, ability to attach a secondary 12 cell battery (while the primary battery remains ), enterprise level hardware security features, DVDRW Lightsribe optical drive which can be exchanged for a second hard drive. The fingerprint reader works great. Video performance is excellent using the included ATI HD3450 discreet graphics. Build quality is impecable and the machine runs rock solid, cool and silent. The difference in thickness is neglegible and at around 4.5 pounds so is the weight. Oh...and the screen is 14.1". Any Apple build quality superiorty claims here will not hold up.

I have installed my own copy of Vista Ultimate that provides every bit as good the multimedia and video capabilities of iMovie if not better. DVD authoring is a real pleasure now. Vista SP1 is now the real deal.

Using my particular example clearly shows what can be purchased for the same or far less money than current MacBooks. The expression "it just works" has been proven to be quite disengenuous considering documented product and software issues that under scrutiny undermine the Apple advantage mantra. Censorship of Apple forums re: these issues is unconscionable. That said, to each their own and everyone has the right to spend their money any way they wish. I work too hard for mine to consider Apple products at this time.

 

This is a warning to stay on-topic and not get locked into endless flame wars with others.

 

Hear that guys ^^
Point the guns at Mac and Apple, not at each other

 

And I just sold my Dell Inspiron for 800 dollars. What does that mean? Exactly nothing.

There is no substantial data that shows Apples have a greater resale value than PCs. On a nominal scale, sure. There are less Apples in the market. If you sample the market, the initial pricing and future availabilities, the profile of the buyers and sellers, they are about even.

Resale value doesn't mean crap for the vast majority of computer buyers out there, who will end up donating their computers at the end of their lifespan.

Give me something real to work with here.

 

Having a lower resale value isn't necessarily a bad thing. I love how I got my 2710p tablet for just $700 off Ebay (after cashback), when it retailed for $1800 just a few months ago.

As for Macs having a higher resale value, I think it's becoming less and less true. I sold my 15.4" Santa Rosa MBP for only $1200, it was just 6 months old. Take a look at the Ebay Buy It Now prices for the used MBPs, they aren't very high. The black Macbook is a special case, because it was black.

 

I agree with you on everything here but you should not compare a large company like HP to Apple....they are totally different company in terms os production and services.....you should try comparing Apple to Sony which also over charge for their VAIO laptops despite not developing their own OS....it's undeniable that people are paying less for the same hardware in a PC....it all comes to are you willing to pay more for a mac? If you don't, you are making a wise spending.....Vista is not a as bad an OS as people have been saying....and you could get real good build quality with the business line laptops at HP, Dell, or Lenovo.....it's not a form over function in Mac but you are paying more for the form with the same function as a pc laptop....I have decided to spend more for the mac.....I don't regret it.....I would have been a pc laptop user if not for those delays in the shipping before the release of this new macbook.

Talking about Apple censorship, I don't see any censorship in the forums at all....I could find many issues with Apple products all around the net....and I also agree that they do over advertise as I don't really believe all they have to say about their products like "no virus" or "it just works"....but its their tactic.....other pc companies could also have done the same thing....Apple is just better in advertising and marketings.

 

Hello Chen and cheers.

Apple has become a big company....perhaps not as big as HP but this should not be considered a viable "explanation" for comparable product pricing or lack thereof.

I think Sony products have been and still are overpriced for what you get. Not just in notebooks but in many of their product lines. Their audio and TV products in particular do not offer compelling advantages over competitors (in particular the Koreans) for the price premium they ask. Reliability stats are also of recent concern.

You replied "Apple is just better in advertising and marketings". I very much agree.

Google "apple censoring forums" and see what results you get

Congrats and all the best with your new MacBook.

 

Well, Sony products used to be very very well made hence the high price. But that doesn't seems to be the case anymore. My 7 years old Sony CD player is still working great! Also have another 10 years old+ TV at home. but I have an iPod nowadays.

 

That is so true. I have an old school Sony DVD player that still spins away like a champ. Bought a Sony Blueray player about 4 months ago and it no longer turns on. Thank goodness Best buy exchanged it out.

I'm curious if the new IPods will hold out as long as my first gen IPod classic here.

Resale value doesn't mean jack. Like I said before, the vast majority of computer owners will use their computers to the point where they end up donating it or junking it.

 

Something that might help with this ongoing discussion--having 53 pages so far--is a sort of Editors' Selection summary, like they have at the NYTimes and other major news sources for readers' postings. Frankly, editors, you started this discussion, you could help interested consumers by highlighting the most informative and the most provocative postings. Or any such postings as strike your fancy.

 

I like that idea alot.

 

I can vouch for this.

When I had my Macbook, Apple released a software update that knocked out wifi. The first place I went to, looking for a fix, was Apple's support forums.

I learned pretty quickly how Apple handles these issues. Presumably trying to keep the problem under wraps, you could actually see Apple mods deleting threads and posts related to the problem. Apple was actively trying to cover up the issue with their product. Having been a victim of it, there is no doubt in my mind that Apple censors their forums.

I went months without working wifi because of that "update".

 

that's to bad, apple is a bully really. as a company they are not going to take no for an answer that is why they are so such sucessful. yes they will delete threads and post to make there products look better. Is that right, I don't think so, but it is their forum and they can do what they want.

just some quick trivia?

How much of a 99cent iTunes sale goes to the record (assuming above 2000 song min limit)

a) 1cent
b) 5cents
c) 9cents
d) 45cents
e) 90cents







If you guessed b) you would be right.

 

Oh wow I actually did guess. b) Or, it was an educated guess as I record reading somewhere that the companies wanted 15cents.

 

Same here man. I remember that article a while back.

 

chan the thing with Sony V Apple it was touched on a bit earlier. I think part of the reason why Apple are getting such a hard time here is because they do not have any budget lines and there prices have gone up a little (well at least over here they have). There was also talk before of an $800 Mac coming out but that did not materalise.

Sony high end laptops are overpriced but at least as a company they offer up cheaper ranges like the NS/NR and BZ. Even the FW is priced quite decently. I find the MB a little expensive against the Sony SR which is a laptop that can be directly compared with.
A Sony Z with a 2.4 processor and 1600x900 resolution, WWAN, HDMI, 3.4lbs, duraview screen, express card slot, built in modem, firewire,docking options, TPM fingerprint reader, carbon fibre chassis, SD card slot, 4500/9300 256MB DDR3 switchable graphics, 7 + hour battery life can be had for £1,549 in the UK with a 3 year warranty included.

The 2.4 MB with its 4.5lbs weight, 1280x800 resolution, backlight keyboard, tactile touchpad, 2 usb ports, and a display port and 4GB of ram costs not much less with the 3 year Applecare included.

People will get what they like at the end of the day but it is worthwhile to compare to the competition also.

Now if Apple brought out a 13" MBP i would probably buy one discounted of course. The MB is just lacking in key features for to me to even consider it.

As i said before i don't bash Apple for not entering the low end market that is up to them but they will take some stick for this.

In regards to the AL vulnerability issue at least some Mac owners here are not denying this. I could link to more threads but i think those are enough.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=588574&highlight=dents
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=8377608

 

Then again, why lower the price when Mac users are so convinced that Macs are worth the current high prices. You have a whole thread of evidence here.

 

So so simply!
Because now, whith the new macbooks Apple they rised the "price tag/what you get for it" again, even more. Last time was considerably OK, but now they are going for and absurd, even for that "every-day Mac lovers/users/buyers" What's more the econom. cirys and big going downs on laptop and desktop parts.. Last time it was illogical, now it's awefull. Clear!

Sorry for my next bad post here(summary one I guess), but the true sometimes hurts and it's not supposed to be hidden through it's illogical time of living

 

Apple = Fascist Computer Company

 

well apple always leave plenty of space to upgrade in stages... so expect more ram and larger hardrives in the spring. the classy look and feel is enough to pull in all the punters they need to keep the factories churning till then. just as they did with non3g/ 3g iPhones.

 

And expect higher prices!! So predictable. Surprise us!

 

This is one big argument, but those comparisons show Apple up a bit I think.
I think that the way Apple will consume a far bigger share of the market is to make a budget prices laptop. around £500 and so many more people would buy them. It wouldn't have to be all light and uber thin and aluminuim, and it shouldn't be that hard for Apple to make.
Why not Apple? Why not.

 

Apple has priced itself out of the market. They have put too much reliance on the "panache" of having a Mac, and assume people will pay twice as much as a similarly equipped Windows machine.

I purchased a Macbook last December. I was really looking forward to it, but was disturbed by all the reports I read of poor quality workmanship, inconsistent quality, and major defects, such as the use of too much thermal paste, and cracking cases.

My machine was OK...no problems...but after using it about a dozen times, I decided it was very overrated.

I am now selling my Macbook...loaded with VMWare, MS Office 2008, etc. to a coworker for 500 bucks. I'm done with Mac.

 

Couldn't agree more with this. The Mac Mini is outdated yet the price is still too high. If Apple reduces the price for these, that would allow Apple to gain newcomers to the Mac world.

 

Again I will state this.

Apple is a fassion statment just like the mini cooper or the VW Bug.

The only people who really benifit from a mac are people who do graphic design, teacher, and music producers.

 

Windows = Bloated bureaucratic nightmare of a democracy.

FWIW I think both are excellent in their own ways.

 

I concur!
Apple's desktop are pretty good, Mac OS X is an excellent OS. But their laptops just suck.

 

Not as much as a $599 Dell.

 

well they shouldn't.. considering they are 1k+ laptops...

i do not see your point.

 

Here is your answer!

Exactly! a $600 laptops sucks no problem. a +$1k laptop sucks, that's another story

 

There is no story, unless u re a pc-bot

 

theres a story...only mac-bots said no