** 1070 laptop: "bd prochot" causing cpu throttling to 800MHz and stuttering **

@iunlock PCH temperature range at 65-70 ºC can trigger BD-Prochot?

 

Has anyone tried a clean install, without any MSI software running, like dragon center, the CSM and other associated crap?

 

In my case, nope.

 

Even my GT72 was acting wacky with all clocks jumping up and down, heck, my 980m would only go to 1200Mhz with the fan boost on, if off it would be on the lower power state at 450-500Mhz.

Clean install, grabbed my Win7 Pro key, installed Win 10 Pro, only thing I installed was latest drivers for everything, XTU and Afterburner for the OSD, now it behaves like it should.

All those MSI programs and control centers are all fighting for power settings and make a mess of everything.

 

I dont believe that could be a problem since @streetunder removed all crap software of MSI and have the same issue than me.

 

Before the clean install I also uninstalled it, no effects, uninstall, clear CMOS, then boot into the usb install media pen, clean install and it start behaving like it should.

If you just un-install and do a clean install all the BIOS/UEFI settings will still be the same, because my XTU kept the undervolting and the bins of "OC" on my 4720HQ where already set to the max instead of the 34x max at 4 core usage that are the default for the CPU.

 

Senso has a good point actually.

Uninstalling MSI utilities is not enough.

Even resetting Bios to defaults in "LOAD DEFAULTS" is not enough.

@Ivan994 had the problem, where CPU Current Limit was being forced to 70 amps, even if he set it to 200 amps in the Bios, because Dragon Center had corrupted it.
Even when he uninstalled dragon center and did "Load bios defaults", and then set 200 amps, it was STILL 70 amps (because he was getting "VR current Limit" throttling.

I had to tell him to do a FULL CMOS CLEAR by holding the power button down for 45 seconds. Then letting the laptop boot loop after 60 second black screen afterwards.
This completely fixed his problem 100% and then the 200 amps limit finally worked.

I don't know if GT72VR has this ability to clear CMOS like this. You can try it. (if it does, you power off the laptop, hold down the power button to power it on, but do not release the button, laptop will shut off, and leave the button pressed for 45 seconds, then release. Then wait 60 seconds for power LED "Boot loop").

Maybe @Pedro69 and @streetunder can try this final thing (FULL CMOS CLEAR) before doing RMA to MSI.

 

Yes, GT72VR also have that feature, i tried in the past...but still have the bd-prochot issue.

Should a clean install with full cmos reset make a diference with only a full cmos reset?

 

I don't know because I don't have that laptop
I only know, CMOS reset is the only way to fix Dragon Center messing up Bios settings (like ICCMAX).

 

Im able to say that i was the first guy on Portugal foruns that discover this issue on GT72VR models...also in web, i not saw any case of throttling on this laptop and was one of the reasons of my choice....better, another reason because i buyed the pc was the review of @streetunder on zwame forum. Now tell to @streetunder that i simple not tested the AC:Origins because i want the game on steam and not only in uplay or cracking things.

Lets work together to find a solution instead of saying this kind of things.

 

I don't know if its just my impression here but I see that all across the years since 2K or 3K i7 gen the performance increse have been nearly null and the malfunctioning/throotling chips have become increasingly more common.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

And my PCH temperatures? Max 70ºC i think that are good right? Bd-Prochot activate first time at 65ºC....

Also im thinking doing some tests and record the max gpu power with/without vddc lock at 0.8750....anyways i still have in mind that the problem are the vrms of gpu.

 

Even PCH temp up to 90/92ºC shouldn’t give you problems.

 

Video when i get the BD-Prochot:

https://streamable.com/7w0ly

 

@Pedro69 this is interesting cause it appears your gpu+cpu use more power through the video than directly before the throttle. However, one thing that stands out is that the GPU goes over 1V about 1 second before the throttle happens and never does it at any other point in the video. But in your system it recovers right away to 3.4GHz again, I never had that - for me it would always get stuck at base clock after the throttle for about 20-30 seconds. One thing is sure, MSI ****ed up big time on power/voltage management. The fault in gpu revision 1.0 also seemed voltage/power related. Seeing more brands and models are affected by both of these issues, there may be some common design flaw that makes it prone to failure? One cannot but wonder. Sadly I don't have any more knowledge to do more than wonder haha. But I hope I hear from the store tomorrow what they found out. Else I will drop by again and bother them some more!

 

It can be a bug in either EC or the BIOS templates..

 

Well, in my case recovery very fast yeah...i just upload the video to see if anyone have more ideas about that. I will try also contact @iunlock since he is an expert in this kind of issues.

I saw that my gpu power can go till 140W

 

Also strange that in your case, disable bd-prochot not fix the issue....

 

So I just heard what MSI did to my laptop from the reseller. They reinstalled windows and "updated" VBIOS. I can bet that they just installed the damn limiting vbios and NOTHING is fixed. Seriously **** my life. I will check once it comes back but I swear I will not leave it like that. Something is broken and they try to cover it up, again. Total ********. Pardon my language.

 

Girl, I really hope that the Vbios not be the 86.04.5B.00.82, because is what MSI install to hide the problems with version 1.0 of GTX 1070...that Vbios disables boost clocks completely and is a troubleshooting Bios:

• version 86.04.5B.00.82 : it's a debug MSI version limiting the core clock 1443MHz , - Dragon Gaming Center / Turbo mode does not work
• version 86.04.5B.00.8A : it's a 3rd party version boosting the GPU to 1645MHz

Please left us feedback as soon as possible since if they only installed a Vbios to disable the boost clock i will just RMA for another laptop and of course that not will send the laptop to Poland, but perhaps they released a Vbios that only limits the VDDC <0.900V and not the core/memory clocks and that will be a good solution at least.

Perhaps i could change my GTX1070 card for another besides MSI just to check if i still have BD-Prochot.

 

I also contacted MSI Support and they give me this:

https://asset.msi.com/global/picture/faq/10016371@2017-0606-0927-569876@faq_02424-en.pdf

The only guy that i trust in tips of windows 10 is @Phoenix

 

Eh.... If I was happy limiting my gpu's voltage or clocks to avoid the problem, I could do that without missing the laptop for several weeks. I am not satisfied with that as a solution. It's like buying a porsche that can do 200km/h but at 140 it starts to loose power, slows down to 80 before the power comes back only to loose it again at 140.... So cause it's new and in warranty, you go back to the dealer, he keeps the car in the garage for few weeks without being able to tell you what's wrong, then gives you the key back eventually and you drive off... only to find out the car will never go faster than 135 now anymore! If you were happy with 135 to begin with, why would you buy the damn porsche with 3 liter engine? A damn fiesta with 1 liter ecoboost engine would have been enough for this and a lot cheaper. Plus having the porsche for looks and not being able to do more than 135 just was not your idea of a sports car! Would you accept that??

 

You are able to change your GTX1070 card from another brand than MSI? Will be nice test both, i bet that the problem will be gone

I told that because i have the objective in put my gpu more cool with the lock on vddc, the clocks are the same and the performance.

 

Streetunder had his gpu exchanged for new revision already. Did not help the problem. And there are plenty msi laptops with both working gpu and hybrid power. So I don't think another brand gpu would help. Plus I rather get my money back than invest 800 euro or more in another mxm 1070 in hopes it fixes something but it will not.

 

Im not saying to buy one, but if you have a friend also with a gtx1070 and change the card from one pc to another. what i said is that im thinking if even the version 1.2 have some problems but is hide in some way...i also have the same version that @streetunder .

Not have sure what brands made gtx1070 for laptops, but for example MSI/ASUS and Eurocom are different...

 

Actually the 8A vbios limits the VDDC to 0.881v. It doesn't limit the boost clocks. The boost clocks are only limited because of the vddc limit.
It's actually possible to force 1.025v on the 8a vbios by doing strange stuff with the curve with the higher voltage points (usually flattening it) and letting the temps get past a certain point, but this is useless. This can also cause the card to crash on the desktop.

The faulty cards have bad voltage regulation (bad hardware) around the 1.013v voltage step. The card can be forced stable again if you can force the vDDC to 1.050v without bypassing TDP limit, but this would require locking the voltage at 1.050v and making sure you don't hit power limit (Only possible with a modded TDP card and lower clocks to avoid power limit, unless you can somehow mod to 240W and hope your mainboard doesn't explode trying to push 240W through the MXM slot).

 

And about the idea in changing the GTX1070 for another brand than MSI? Not worth?

 

Sure you can change the brand. Good luck making the heatsink and VRM heatsink fit, though.
Why not just ask MSI for a 1.2 version card? They HAVE given people 1.2 cards who were very persistent. Might have to arrange a cross shipment and sign some waiver to void your warranty or something for self installation, I don't know. I don't work for MSI. Suggest you ask them yourself.

 

I am just hoping to get my money back at this point and save up some more. Then I can decide whether to invest 1600 into a gaming pc with 1070 (plenty for me and since I would be putting it together from individual parts it should be fun). Or whether I should wait till the 1080 laptops get under 3000 euro and buy the gt75vr 7rf then. Atm it costs 3400 which is more than thousand euro over my original budget so I don't know. Considering it would still be double of a gaming pc (seeing I have ssd, hdd, screen, keyboard already).... I am not sure. Something is still telling me I would enjoy a well working laptop the most.
@Falkentyne, I know 100% that my laptop had bd prochot even at forced 0.900V gpu. Only below that it would not show up. Everything is weird, truly. I don't even want the laptop back anymore if I find the limiting vbios on it. I will refuse to accept it and take it home. Just send it to MSI again is what the poor guy will hear from me. If they can't fix it, I want other options.

 

Im just asking since not know how are the other brands.

 

Heliada.
What vbios did your card have?
If you pressed L on the voltage curve and locked the card to 0.900v, THAT Triggered BD prochot? Even on some light stress like Valley or Heaven benchmark?

Do you have a SPI programmer and a 1.8v adapter, a Pomona 5250 IC clip and some jumper cables (like these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZF1ZSZ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_7?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3KL3JVC9E1BY6 ?)

You could try TDP modding the card to 150W and then trying to see if you get BD Prochot after doing that. Because a card running at stock clocks, 150W TDP and 0.900v should stay below 150W limit.

 

This pic is from my card.

 

Then your card is the same as mine. Good card. Bad laptop.

 

Lets wait a response from @heliada .

 

I am also pretty sure my gpu is proper. No idea which revision it is (I have a feeling it might be the first one) but without the cpu being stressed, it overclocked really well. I totally could make it +150 on core and it was stable as hell through all the benchmarks. I was so happy about that. Could totally push more but did not want to. But then in games like ac origins, it just does not feel as smooth and then there are the severe throttles. Just waiting for it to arrive next week is nerve wrecking Especially since I have a hunch that it is totally not fixed. Despite clearly stating I did not want the damn vbios solution. Even put my phone number on the desktop as well as descriptions etc, which were also included in the reseller's form that they gave msi. I am so disappointed. But oh well, not loosing my faith yet. If they feel they can still fix it even if it is not fixed now, I will give them the chance. After all MSI has the best gaming laptops of all available in my country. The only one who can make i7's not thermal throttle. The best accessibility of components. I truly love my gt72vr, but at some point you come to admit that loving a product is not enough to justify owning it.

 

Wait, are you saying that if cpu not have a high demand, even with the voltage of gpu on 1V and clock >1700MHz...bd-prochot not appear?

 

@Pedro69, and @Falkentyne I know 100% the laptop did not reach such high voltages on full load unless the cpu was also stressed. In unigine valley or heaven and other gpu demanding games such as final fantasy xiv, witcher 3 etc gpu would stick around 1600mhz with corresponding voltage. Only in not demanding games like the Sims 4 and interestingly assassins creed origins did it ever go over 1700 or even 1800 MHz stock with corresponding voltage. That behaviour is beyond me cause it's really weird. I did not try to lock the voltage over 1v on demanding games and benchmarks but I could overclock it over 1800 stable with the original stock voltage. Pretty sure it was below 1v.

 

@heliada um......the behavior is perfectly normal.

It's called power limit throttling.
A stock gtx 1070, 8A Vbios or 3A or 0D, doesn't matter, will bounce around 1600 mhz (stock clocks) and around 1750 mhz with overclock, with default 115W TDP. That's because in stressful games, the TDP limit will kick in sooner because the card has to work harder in newer games or benchmarks. So it will throttle sooner. Older games do not stress the card as much so it will reach higher clocks (1800 mhz+). If you did a hardware TDP mod with the pascal bios editor and a programmer, at 150W TDP, the 8A vbios would remain at 1860 mhz at all times without downclocking (with a +225 mhz core clock offset).

The 3A or 0D vbios which allows up to 1.062v voltage range, would boost to about 2000 mhz at 150W TDP, before it started running into power limits.

 

With .44 Vbios i have max values of 140/141 W on gpu power

 

@Falkentyne i understand that. The odd part is that with stock clock and everything in assassns creed it would go over 1800mhz and not power throttle while it does that in benchmarks like unigine heaven, witcher 3 etc. Despite gpy being completely stressed in both scenarios. That was the odd behavior. As in assassins creed it seemed to hit max voltage all the time. And obviously also not using battery as it should.

 

Can't type on phone at all. Damn thing auto messing up everything I type

 

A lot of this depends on what parts of the GPU are being used.

I've seen 100% GPU usage at 1700 mhz in OCCT with it hitting TDP limit.
I assume also it matters how much the CPU is being stressed. But this is beyond me. So I"ll be quiet now.

 

@heliada what will be your next step if your laptop only have a vbios to camo the issue?

 

Yeah it is all weird anyway. Why would it power throttle when cpu is not stressed much but not power throttle when it is... It was hitting voltage limit a lot in assasin's creed I noticed. We will see.
@Pedro69 if it comes with the .82 or .8A vbios I will kindly ask the reseller to help me call MSI since the MSI representatives for my country are not even Dutch and have heavy accents (I usually get the same guy on the phone too). Anyway I am not Dutch either and the accent is a big problem, I simply don't understand them that well and can't express myself so well in Dutch either. When asking if they speak English they say their English is worse then their Dutch and at that point I just stick with Dutch but it does not work out enough.
I hope the reseller will help me to figure out the next step. Obviously I want a 100% working laptop. If they cannot make that happen, I want another model that has the same or better specs (can be refurbished I cannot care less about that as long as it works 100%) or simply my money back (which is preferable). If they come to the conclusion they can still fix it, I will send it off to Poland again. I truly love the laptop, but am a bit disappointed with the service. I hope they will turn it around though as their products are amazing when they work 100% and they should totally stand behind them!
In case the MSI representative would not be willing to talk to me and the reseller about a better solution, I will ask my boyfriend. He can be very... persuasive (read: has 100% logical arguments that you cannot refute and is good at breaking down the rights one has and is amazing at burning people to the ground as well if needed).
But for all I know it will work now... doubt that though. I will take the normal vbios installation file with me and also some benchmark and assasins creed files so I can test in the store before accepting it back.
PS. @Falkentyne, weird thing is it was not power throttling with 100% usage over 1700 or 1800 MHz in assasin's creed. Seems like some weird bios/motherboard fault. Maybe the motherboard/ec don't report proper power usage? Hence the laptop does not know to use hybrid power or power throttle the card? Maybe the cpu/gpu being stressed trips some power regulating mechanism which leads to all kinds of faults and also bd prochot (hence back to the theory of faulty sensors on the mb?)

 

In my case, with .44 bios and bd-prochot disable on bios, my problem is gone....you said that for you not work at all right? This is strange, @heliada why you not put a video or something and send to MSI Poland email?

 

I did make a video, it was sitting chill on the desktop with huge red arrow. Also an explanation of the problem, my phone number and specific instructions not to install limiting vbios. Don't think they read it despite direct instructions to do so by the reseller. I even deleted all personal data beforehand and the reseller made sure to also write that down so they can log in without an issue. Guess that did not happen or the technician did not speak english. Just my luck.

 

Can you explain to me what your laptop does when you disable bd-prochot?

 

It stops throttling to 800MHz. But continues throttling to 2.7GHz (base clock). Which is the symptom you don't have - in the video you posted it goes to 800, then straight to 3.4GHz again... mine goes 800 (same as yours), then immediately to 2.7GHz where it gets stuck for about 20-30 seconds, then back to my boost clock which is 3.2GHz. It seemed to also be getting more frequent, at some point it would not hold the boost clock for more than 20 seconds or so. With bd prochot disabled, it throttles to 2.7GHz and gets stuck there for about 20-30 seconds.

 

Well, we need study that because if the disable not solve the problem there is another limit on laptop...you checked with hwinfo if you have others that prochot sensor?

 

I did not check ^^ i already said everything I could about my laptop so lets just wait till it arrives haha. But it is frustrating that I pretty much know I will not be taking it home with me.