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    Holding on to 'end of era' Thinkpad's

    Discussion in 'Lenovo' started by vinuneuro, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. pipspeak

    pipspeak Notebook Deity

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    But Lenovo did manage to become to only PC maker to be growing market share in the past few years while all others seem to be fading away. I'm not convinced that even IBM would have managed to keep the diehard Thinkpad fans so diehard in the current era of tablet, ultrabooks and mobile devices. In that sense I think 2007 was the end of an era... not of Thinkpads, but of the idea that corporate laptops were the state of the art of mobile computing.
     
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  2. power7

    power7 Notebook Evangelist

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    Of course. Some old customers go, some new customers come. But with Lenovo being busy trying to put a Thinkpad label to everything, to produce the most generic and indistinguishable from any other Acer/Asus/Toshiba/... Ultrabook, w/o much logic or consistency in its design, there will be fewer and fewer of these diehard fans.

    Who want a Thinkpad, and not just a laptop. If they are all the same, just give me that one, yeah, that, that is $5 cheaper than the other one, please.
     
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  3. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

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    Yes. I guess Microsoft only mandated the 6-row keyboard - not how the 6-row layout will look like in the end.


    6-row source.PNG
     
  4. LegendaryKA8

    LegendaryKA8 Nutty ThinkPad Guy

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    I definitely feel you there, and the M6700 and W520 were my top two picks when it came time to get a new machine recently. The M6700 won out mainly due to storage(up to three 2.5" drives and one mSATA) and graphics horsepower(managed to snag one with the K4000M for a decent price). I don't know how picky your wife is about the keyboard, but I'm not disappointed. It's quieter and is maybe 75% of the tactile feedback of my T500, but it's miles better than the consumer junk that's being pushed out these days. The layout does take a hit from the W520, but it's not that awkward. You also get plenty of status indicators, too. The trackpoint isn't nearly as good as a ThinkPad(the textured cap is pretty bad), but I've heard of people modifying ThinkPad caps to fit. If I can mod a soft dome to work on this keyboard it'd be decent. I feel that it doesn't 'drift' as much as the one on my T500, either. If Dell came up with a less horrendous cap design it'd be a contender.

    That said I will admit that I'm tempted to get a T430 to accompany me to the office, as long as I can get one with discrete graphics and the 1600x900 display for a decent price. I've been carting the M6700 to and from for the time being, but I'd like something a little more portable at times. I haven't tried the new keyboard style, but at least those come with physical Trackpoint buttons.
     
  5. darknite39

    darknite39 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Interesting info. This is likely crazy, but do you suppose there's a chance of a Linux model with the classic 7 row keyboard?
     
  6. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

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    No, since Lenovo is not selling Linux models (other than in China) - also, this would mean they would have to redesign nearly the entire chassis and the display bezel, which is not going to happen.

    Wll, it would be weird if the new buttons wouldn´t be physical. :D They are not dedicated, they are not "not physical"-
     
  7. NBReview1

    NBReview1 Notebook Consultant

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    Yea the iPhone came out around that time - downhill from there...it's a pity to see BB go down but they didn't change fast enough (they can't just rely on the diehard fans - even Apple isn't relying on diehard fans to survive - the base is too small). But hey I might be wrong and you might be right or vice versa.

    But I do agree with you that Lenovo is gonna be slapping on the thinkpad brand on everything. Some are gonna be duds but some are nice additions I think (e.g. milspec Thinkpad Yoga is pretty good attempt I think but not the best as battery life isn't that good for me). Overall, more choice = good thing.
     
  8. power7

    power7 Notebook Evangelist

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    Well, does not sound very convincing, tbh. Especially as this 6-rows keyboard appeared long before Windows 8 in Lenovo devices, just Thinkpads were spared. Microsoft mandated 6 rows, except that Acer S7 has 5 rows, and Windows on-screen keyboard has 4 rows.

    Interestingly, it's always somebody else to blame with Lenovo. 16:9 screens? LCD manufacters conspiracy. Incredibly bad screens? Adding a decent screen costs a lot of money, nobody wants them. Keyboard layout destroyed? Evil Microsoft, no less. Trackpoint all but destroyed (next step - make it optical, like in Thinkpad Tablet 1)? Blame Apple glass trackpad. :(
     
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  9. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    You'll have to come up with something a *lot* better than that if you expect to be taken seriously.
     
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  10. NBReview1

    NBReview1 Notebook Consultant

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    I thought you were the same guy that's complaining that Lenovo is putting in all these high resolution consumer screens draining battery life?? Maybe I got the wrong guy...
     
  11. NBReview1

    NBReview1 Notebook Consultant

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    Lol, you are seriously a funny guy - a diehard Thinkpad old timer :D
     
  12. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    No.

    I just want a proper source for such a strong statement. Directly from Lenovo or Microsoft, not from unrelated individuals who are employed by neither.

     
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  13. xd19

    xd19 Notebook Enthusiast

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    When it comes to Trackpoint and touchpad Lenovo has already released a perfect combination - X1 Carbon has dedicated Trackpoint buttons and buttonless (=large) touchpad.

    And as I do not like some of the design changes in the new generations, I'm probably doomed to get T440s - it's light, has nice screen and Haswell so it's going to run long on batteries. Zbook 14 will probably be way to expensive so the only remaining Haswell ultrabook with Trackpoint is Dell 7440.
    And if it hadn't been for Trackpoint I would just get some Samsung ultrabook - it's light, has decent screen and is cheaper.
     
  14. MikesDell

    MikesDell Notebook Evangelist

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    I'm 100% holding onto both my T61 and X301 ( bought both brand new ). My T61 is going on 6 years old and I still use it daily for 3+ hours a day. Only had to reformat the hard drive a few times ( not too bad, since I used Rescue and Recovery ), other than that it's been great.

    My next computer though will be a 27" iMac. I haven't used a desktop computer since 1998, and I think I will REALLY like upgraing to a desktop, since the T61 stays on my desk anyway 99.9% of the time.

    Oh, and I have used the T530 that I ordered for my parents ( and promplty returned ). The keyboard layout was horrible, even though the keys felt OK. My mother wasn't a big fan of it either, and hated the screen / layout as well.
     
  15. Jayayess1190

    Jayayess1190 Waiting on Intel Cannonlake

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    Since I have no money I will continue to use my X220. My next computer will either be a Broadwell or Skylake powered 13" MBP or Thinkpad Yoga. And then the X220 will probably maybe replace the Acer Timeline 3810T that is the "house" computer at my parents house (what they use to do stuff forbidden on their work laptops). I had admired Thinkpad's for a while, especially the X Series and am glad I finally got one. But at the same time I feel I could sell my X220 and while I would miss it, I would be ok.
     
  16. Zero000

    Zero000 Notebook Deity

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    The X220 has a special keyboard so if I were you , I would keep it.
     
  17. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

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    I've got a W520 with a sane keyboard layout. I hope it lasts at least until;

    -I don't need a mobile workstation
    -Something new and better with a "normal" keyboard comes out
    -I die

    Whatever comes first
     
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  18. vinuneuro

    vinuneuro Notebook Virtuoso

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  19. Jack Watts

    Jack Watts Notebook Consultant

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    I had an brand new in box X220 (replaced an older X220--long story) which I sold at a small loss to switch to an X230, strictly because I liked the new keyboard better; both the layout and the typing experience. I had a chance to use the new keyboard on a different unit and was immediately sold. So, I guess the quick answer for me is "No"!

    My long answer: "Thinkpad" is just a word, and it obviously means different things to different people. To some, it means a 7-row keyboard--others, a blue enter key (funny, because my first TP had a black enter key, and I remember people complaining about this new-fangled blue enter key....) Me? It means a reliable, durable, serviceable machine; and above all,one that has good inputs.

    I love the new keyboard, and a bigger trackpad is definitely welcome. I'm willing to wait for some more reviews regarding the changes to the trackpoint buttons. Claims that the "trackpoint is essentially dead" are, frankly, pretty silly if they're done with no first-hand experience with it--particularly in light of the fact that there's 1 single on-hand review (and it's positive). I'll wait and see.

    I work remotely and my computer is basically my home office (even when I'm home). So, the tiresome rhetoric about TP's now being toys because they have large trackpads or whatever is just that to me: tiresome rhetoric. To me, the T440 looks to be the perfect machine for my uses--a little bigger IPS screen with a better trackpad. After using a T61 for 5 years, I didn't really plan on switching from the X230 any time soon--but I may give a go and will the X230 to my wife.
     
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  20. vinuneuro

    vinuneuro Notebook Virtuoso

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    Jack, that was first hand experience. I spent an hour yesterday at CDW's headquarters where they have every single current Thinkpad model on display. Trackpoint is terrible now, clicking that entire touchpad is sh*t, it's like clicking four buttons simultaneously for a mouse click.

    The keyboard is subjective. The one in the X230//T430 is fine, and the typing experience is slightly better, but the layout and deletion of certain buttons is compromised for a lot of people. Some will be able to get over it. The keyboard feel was also not great in the T431s, but ibmthink assures it'll be better in the T440s.

    Materials, there's a definite drop in actual or at least perceived quality. It reminded me of what you get with an Edge product.

    I was one of the ones that defended Thinkpad's in the last few weeks when all the long-time users were trashing the new ones. But having used the first model of this new type of Thinkpad, so far it's been a let down.

    Hopefully the T440s won't have any of the other weaknesses of the T431s apart from the trackpoint, we'll see soon. I will buy one and return if necessary.
     
  21. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

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    The new lid material is not of worse quality. Instead, it does not pick up fingerprints or dirt as easy. If you like an material or not is subjective. The new palmrest material of the T440s is clearly better than the pure plastic you get with the T420 or even the rubbery material you get with a ThinkPad Twist for example.

    The keyboard is better than on the T430u or the T420, at least in my opinion. I also have the direct comparison with the R50e (NBM keyboard, made in Thailand), and I like both the same. The feel is not the same, but they are both very good.

    Honestly, I can say 1 hr is not enough to judge the new TrackPoint solution. As I mentioned in my review, the feeling is first a bit "akward", but after a few days (or a few hours for me) it gets better. However, this is also subjective. I like the flexibility of the new design very much, because I can now use the hole TrackPad as a button.
     
  22. MiB

    MiB Notebook Consultant

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    I'm glad you finally experienced for yourself what crap Lenovo is trying to pass off as a Thinkpad these days. Anyways, welcome to the light.
    I responded to your post here
     
  23. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

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    It's not so much that some people "will be able to get over it". The largest part of users are quite frankly very low on the efficient-working ladder. Very few people use keyboard shortcuts (the F- buttons for example), so very few people notice they are gone / displaced.

    The utter shame is in Lenovo pandering to this lowest common denominator. The same can be said on 16:9 vs 16:10, especially since the "gained" space is just for empty plastic.

    If I was an insurance company that offers insurance against RSI to employers that employ people like me I would give them a discount for supplying xx20 series keyboards vs xx30 series keyboards....

    Also note that with the xx10 series Thinkpads Lenovo made the Delete and Escape buttons larger. Either the reasons they gave for that was total bs, or they ignore their own logic with the current 6-row keyboards.
     
  24. Jack Watts

    Jack Watts Notebook Consultant

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    Fair enough--I didn't realize you'd actually had hands on one. Trackpoint functionality is a big deal for me, because I use it roughly 50-60% of the time. The whole subject has caused me to actually look at how I use the pointer vs the pad because I use both interchangeably, and have for such a long time that I don't even notice when I use each one.. I guess that's why I welcome the idea of a larger pad with integrated buttons--assuming it actually works. Personally, having a larger right button and smaller left button would be ideal, so having the ability to customize them to a degree sounds good to me, on paper at least. Plus, a larger touchpad would be a big plus. Of course, it will never satisfy who think that "real Thinkpad users would never use an Apple-inspired touchpad", but those folks really aren't my concern...


    I'm basically in the same boat. I really would like the extra real estate of a 14" screen, but I really want an IPS display as I'm often using the computer in odd locations/positions and really like wide viewing angles afforded by the IPS screen. Thinness and 1080P don't really matter to me, so if there's an IPS 1600x900 T440 (I still can't tell, but that appears to be an option?), then I'll be trying the T440 myself.
     
  25. Zero000

    Zero000 Notebook Deity

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    I'm quite sure people who aren't used to premium quality will be buying the T440s.

    The rest of us have alternatives (obviously not as good as the real ThinkPads years back).
     
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  26. MiB

    MiB Notebook Consultant

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    In addition to several Thinkpads, I also own a 2013 13" Macbook Air that I upgraded from last year's 2012 version. The Air is by far the best ultrabook you can buy, from build quality to battery life it slams everything on the market. Lenovo, or any other windows PC OEM have a very long way to go to come close to Apple's touchpad no matter how BIG they try to make it.
     
  27. Jack Watts

    Jack Watts Notebook Consultant

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    "We did not like the display hinges of our test model. The further the screen is pushed back, the more likely it is to wobble, which leads to unintentional wobbling while moving the laptop. As the hinges cannot restrict this movement, the user will often be annoyed by distracting reflections (glossy display). The sharp hand-rest edge is a flaw as the user will often put his/her hands down in this area, and over time, the edge could start to hurt."

    That's notebookcheck's review. By your definition, isn't that "crap on the stick"?

    I've used a friend's MBA for a while, and there's a lot I like about it; however, I certainly don't agree that it "slams everything in the market", buy a longshot: the glossy display doesn't work for me--at all, the keyboard isn't that great to type on (subjective, but my opinion), and I like being able to have a second battery I can swap (the hot-swappable battery is the ideal solution for me). I'm also not thrilled with the idea that I can't easily upgrade memory, replace the disc drive or change out the battery. The biggest drawback to me though was that it got insanely hot. OTOH, the trackpad was great (though interesting to hear it's way better than the new Lenovo one which I'm guessing you have yet to use...), it's very portable and seems well-built.

    I'm not "anti-Apple" or "pro-Lenovo". I just want a machine that works well for me, regardless of manufacture. Right now, Lenovo's Thinkpads seem to fit the best for my needs. To each his own, but portraying stuff as "crap on a stick" because it doesn't fit some idealized version of what people think "Thinkpad" means to them just seems a bit silly.

    BTW, my X230 is of much higher quality than either my Thinkpad 560 or my T61. The hinges on both of those machines were shot within the first year, and I was on my 3rd or 4th keyboard on my "legendary T61" when the motherboard fried... My 560 always had boot issues the entire time I owned it and I was cleaning the fan obsessively to keep the temps down. Again MY OPINION, the magical days of the old thinkpads are seen by rose-colored glasses by many. The new machines seem to be of higher-quality.
     
  28. MiB

    MiB Notebook Consultant

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    Whatever floats your boat Jack.

    My definition of crap on stick is this sorry excuse for a trackpad Lenovo slapped on the T440s and stuck a Thinkpad sticker on it.

    I've had enough 'debating' with Lenovo shills for today. Have a good one :)
     
  29. Zero000

    Zero000 Notebook Deity

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    I think I warned enough people. I'll let the rest learn the hard way.
     
  30. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    When you compare them to a *highly problematic* generation like T61, maybe. I don't recall the last time I've had my hands on a 560 so I'll refrain from commenting on that model.

    Both my '02 A31p and my '06 T43p sport original hinges that are as good as new, and neither of these laptops was babied. Now what?

    IBM and Lenovo each had their share of duds, as well as their bright moments. That's beside the point of this thread, though.

    People who "hunt & peck" while typing on their ThinkPads will NEVER be able to understand what Lenovo did to the rest of us by removing the 7-row layout.

    I have a W520 here that we might or might not keep depending on a number of factors. It's a fine machine, but it doesn't feel like a $3K workstation in my opinion.

    Should we end up keeping the W520 that will undoubtedly be the final ThinkPad in this household, bought for one reason only: neither of the adults here feels like re-learning to type at our age.

    If someone is interested in a properly-built, business-grade notebook with QC and support that is second to none, I strongly recommend looking into Panasonic's non-fully-rugged offerings...presuming they can afford one.
     
  31. Jack Watts

    Jack Watts Notebook Consultant

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    Your comment above is one of those classic false arguments, with the inherent (and false) implication that everyone falls into one of two categories: 1) hunt and peck typists and 2) people who lament the loss the seven row keyboard. It's simply not true. I'm a very fast touch typist--who's faster on the new keyboard (barely, but I am). I seriously doubt I'm the only one in that category. So, this is one of those rhetorical arguments that's just false on its face.

    I realize that some folks did extensively use those functions in the top row. Personally, I've found other methods faster and more convenient. I agree, it would have been nice if Lenovo offered the legacy keyboard as an option, at least on one key model. It seems they would have saved some ill will among some folks--though I also bet the take rate would be shockingly low.



    It's funny, the new Tough Books seem reminiscent of my wife's Dell M1210--which she's been using every day for the last 7 years. It's a great machine! If one wants or needs a machine then can stand on, a Tough Book would be my choice. For me, the reality is that the case needs to last 3-5 years of daily use. The current TP's seem like they'll fit that bill, but time will tell.
     
  32. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    I'm impressed that you were able to re-learn to type on the new keyboard *that* fast. Some of us are just too old to learn new tricks I guess. But let's hold that thought for a second...

    Now we are getting to the core of the issue...of course you can type as fast or even faster on the new layout if you haven't used the top row to begin with, or keyboard shortcuts associated with it. That makes perfect sense.

    What you seem to forget is the fact that for users who didn't care about the top row - such as yourself - there were always other, non-ThinkPad options available.

    For those of us who *did* care, and used the top row extensively, the old layout was the *only* option.

    Too bad we don't have an opportunity to actually bet on something along the lines of your proposal, since I'd be more than willing to take you up on it...


    You've obviously never used a business-grade ToughBook such as CF-52/53 - let alone seen its guts - so there's really nothing for us to discuss on that aspect any further.
     
  33. NBReview1

    NBReview1 Notebook Consultant

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    Does Panasonic have your required 7 row layout keyboard?
     
  34. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

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    It's not about fast typing, it's also about using shortcuts. I don't give a damn how fast you type, nor would it really matter to me if I typed 20% faster. The loss of shortcuts would make a much bigger difference to me.

    Haha... I'm not buying. Empty phrase without examples. :hi2:

    Why not offer the 6-row crap as an option? I bet the rate of takers would be even lower.

     
  35. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    No.

    But if I have to re-learn to type all over again I don't need to use a ThinkPad anymore, do I?

    In a sense, this could be a newly found freedom for many of us - to use different laptops instead of just ThinkPads - now that the keyboard layout has been changed.

    Not that anyone had asked for such a freedom in the first place...:rolleyes:
     
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  36. Jack Watts

    Jack Watts Notebook Consultant

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    Actually, I have--a contractor friend of mine has an older 52 and I've gotten to play with it a bit. It's a great machine, and it suits his purposes well. But *to me* the differences in this laptop seem to be in impact-resistance more than anything else. If that's a consideration, then that's great--but for my purposes it really isn't. I'll probably drop my laptop 2 or 3 times during its life--where as he's knocking that TB 52 on the ground once a week. So, to me this isn't a matter of "better", but different. A machine that rugged doesn't provide me (or most people) any appreciable benefit if a regular business machine will last a reasonable life-cycle. For me, that life-cycle is 3-5 years. And yes, while the Dell M1210 isn't a TB, it frankly has better build quality and reliability than any Thinkpad that I've used!

    Basically, I just think the TB is a different product all together than the TP (past or current). The real question to me is whether or not TP's are as reliable and durable as they once where. The quality on my X230 seems really good--but as I said before, time will tell.
     
  37. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    I know I wrote "used" which doesn't equal "played with". Had you actually used it for a while, you would've found out that the battery life - amongst other things - is vastly superior to any somewhat-comparable ThinkPad. I'm talking from *real life* experience, not from some third-party-test or a manufacturer-affiliated/sponsored website.

    I've never come close to - let alone used - any of those Dells, so I can't say anything about them. I'm certain that they are well-built units.

    Agreed. But I brought Panasonic into this discussion on the merits of the quality of their products and support, not due to their similarity to ThinkPads.

    To me, the answer to this question is clearly "no". We can only agree to disagree from this point on.
     
  38. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

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    I really don´t know what "relearn to type" means. The switch between the chiclet key design and the normal key design is without any relearning process combined. Only the layout is different, but you can get quickly used to it if you want to (at least I could). "relearn" implies that you would have to learn typing again from scratch. Thats not the case.

    There was always more to ThinkPads than just the keyboard layout, which is still better than many other layouts on other Notebooks. And there still is.

    We will see. But I think: Yes.
     
  39. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    I was not talking about island vs. conventional keyboard. That aspect makes zero difference to me, and most of ThinkPad old-timers.

    What you see as "only" is what the big deal for quite a few of us actually is. If one has keyboard shortcuts ingrained in their brain after 15-20 years of using a particular layout, they are effectively re-learning to type. No ifs, ends or buts about it.

    For those who rarely - or never - had any use for the 7th row, and/or aforementioned shortcuts, it's not a big deal whatsoever.


    "Was" is a statement expressed in The Past Simple Tense, which implies that both the action and the period of time referred to are over. So yes, I agree with you on this one. There was. Once. No more.

    To each his/hers own. Personally, I disagree.

     
  40. NBReview1

    NBReview1 Notebook Consultant

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    Yes, change happens. Are you planning to buy one of those Panasonic laptops? Their pricing is similar to old IBM thinkpad laptops.
     
  41. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    Maybe - just maybe - you should read the part of my signature on this forum that is written in English...I already own several ToughBooks...including a fairly recent, pretty-much-top-shelf CF-52...if they come up with something that I find attractive in the future, I'll be happy to put my money where my mouth is again. I always have.

    The fact that I've been a ThinkPad buff for years hasn't kept me from exploring other high-end offerings...at any point in the game.

    As for the pricing, with Panasonic one gets what they pay for, period. Like they did with ThinkPads from the IBM era, at least for the most part.
     
  42. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

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    That's because you don't want to know.

    Nobody ever said it had to do with the change to chiclet.

    They messed up the layout. That not just "only"

    Probably because you didn't use 6th and 7th row keys...

    You just have to "get used" to buttons being on another place. While we're on it.... I see you are located in Germany? How about you visit me and I'll have you type on a QWERTY keyboard as opposed to a QWERTZ keyboard you have in Germany. I mean; only the layout is different! After that you can visit our southern neighbours; they have AZERTY.

    Layouts are just something you don't mess with, period. How do you think Murray Perahia would have reacted if a theater he visited had a piano with a "different layout"?

    Yes, there was. Like the lid of the T61 that wouldn't bent so you wouldn't get a greasy trackpoint projection on your screen. Oh wait... that's gone too.
     
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  43. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

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    Please, don´t make me laugh. If a layout does not fit anymore, it has to be changed. Just because some people are not willing to get used to new things (or even the old things rearranged) the world won´t stop to change.

    If the industry would follow your argument, cars would still have the same button and control layout inside as the first cars and keyboars would still have the same layout as the AT keyboard for example.

    In an industry that is still evolving and trying to innovate (which the piano "industry" clearly is not!) changes are normal.

    And there still is.

    No, because Lenovo solved this problem with a different way: The new Carbon lids are a bit easier to bend (but a lot thinner and lighter, and still robust) so they lowered the TrackPoint (it is 1.4mm lower, the new caps are 1mm thinner and it is lowered additional 0.4 mm), so this does not happen anymore. As I said, there still is more to ThinkPads.

    No, I use some of keys in the 6th and 7th row (or just the 6th row) very often, for example, F4, or PageUp/Down, Delete etc. What I don´t use is for example SysRq or Break.

    I like the new layout more, because Delete is easier to reach and find for me, PageUp/Down are easier to use than before (you can now use them with two fingers at the same time). Pos1 and End are not often used by me, but they are also easy to find, as on the new Tx40 models Lenovo has returned to the seperation of the F-keys in groups (on the T430u without the grouping it was a bit difficult).
     
  44. power7

    power7 Notebook Evangelist

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    Yeah, and you don't ever press of F8-F12 keys, or use laptop for voice communication, so can't care less about visible indicator whether your sound and mic are on or off. Perhaps you press PrtScreen all the time, so it's absolutely essential to have it as close to space bar as possible. Etc.

    Yet, believe it or not, there are plenty of people who do use these keys. Menu key has a purpose too, and so is Insert (which isn't gone from all Thinkpads yet, just from the half of them). And if you liked the PgUp/PgDn next to arrow keys, you could have made Forward/Back to be them in about 10 mouse clicks with the old keyboard layout. It just had keys where the new layout has empty plastic.

    There is nothing the new layout makes easier. There are plenty of things the new layout makes worse. There was innovation in the keyboard, where people we thinking how to improve them, and enhance them, rather than destroy them:

    The new keyboard - A “Wow” Layout - - Design - Lenovo Blogs
    ThinkPad T400s: Key to a Better Experience - Design - Lenovo Blogs

    What we have today is not innovation, not in layout, nor in trackpoint, no matter how apologetic you want to be. It's plain and simple degradation. And it is a big deal for quite a few people, many of which bought Thinkpads in the first place for the features that are now legacy.

    P.S. And yes, pretty much any decent desktop keyboard has the same layout as "enhanced" 100-something IBM PC keyboard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ModelM.jpg.
     
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  45. power7

    power7 Notebook Evangelist

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    Exactly. Even English UK and English US layouts are different. But "layouts are just something you don't mess with, period".
     
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  46. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    Why? You have a broken rib or something? That type of a statement doesn't belong in a discussion amongst equal adults. I talk to my kids with more respect than that.

    Who was complaining about the old one?

    OK, let's stay away from phrases that hold no substance whatsoever, shall we?

    Using your car analogy, I'm sure that Henry Ford thought that having two separate clutch pedals on the Model T was a great innovation...

    How about this: I don't want any of the keys to be "easy to find". I refuse to be pressured into looking for them, on a ThinkPad. I *need* them to be where they've always been.
     
  47. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

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    I do. Thats why the new keyboard in my T440s has two nice light indicators for the mic and speaker on-off buttons. ;)
    View attachment 102968

    Nah, thats a thing of the past. If we were talking about the T430-gen keyboard, that would be right, as the keyboard had exact the same size as the old 7 row keyboard, just the 7th tow used for an empty plastiv bezel. On the new systems (T440-gen), the room is used to make the notebook smaller (and on the X-Serie, to make the TouchPads bigger and the palmrests longer -> Ergonomics), as the plastic bezel is now gone.

    There is. Aside from the better key-arrangment in my view, the new layout it much easier for people to adopt who are used to 6-row keyboards. And these are more today than the ones who are used to mechanical 7 row keyboards.

    And even if you rearrange Back and Forward to PageUp and Down, the Delete key is still easier to reach and find on the new layout in my opinion.

    Nice point. This nice innovation made back 2009 with the new T400s keyboard design (bigger Esc and Delete keys) was kept with the new design as the Esc and Delete

    Obviously, I have a different opinion than you about this, so we can agree to disagree. ;) With every day using the new TrackPoint design, I like it more.

    P.S:: Yes I know. I have a nice Unicomp EndureaPro keyboard on my desk. ;) But desktops are a very different field than Notebooks.

    Neither do I as I type almost the hole time blind, but with "easy to find" I mean maybe "easier to reach" or to avoid typing errors. It is a bit hard to descripe it in English for me...Whatever, I think the new position is more logical.

    I did not attack anyone with this statement (different from other participants in this discussion...), or at least I did not want to. I just had to laugh, thats why I wrote it. :D

    It is not really about complaining (no one really complained, I guess most people just didn´t used the 7th row keys and stayed quiet, because they did get in their way). It is about fitting into the modern devices which gets thinner, lighter and also smaller (like my T440s, which is smaller than a T420).

    Anyway, this discussion is pointless. Obviously, we won´t get to a point where we will agree.
     
  48. oxf77

    oxf77 Notebook Consultant

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    FACT the new keyboard feels worse!
     
  49. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

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    No, it does not. It feels better, for me. And there are many others that agree that it feels at least as good as the old keyboard. You will have to accept that the typing feel is subjective.
     
  50. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

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    They layout did and does fit perfectly. Just that some people like to lower everything to the lowest common denominator doesn't mean I and others above that threshold are going to accept that.

    They didn't swap gas and brake pedal around... did they? A "change" doesn't have to be an "improvement".

    They piano industry won't be as idiotic to change the keyboard layout. Not a single manufacturer, designer or stockholder would stand for that, nor a single customer. That there are lesser minds involved in buying and designing PC's is just a shame.

    "does not happen anymore" ? What are you talking about? It was very rare to have a projection of my trackpoint on the screen of my T61. On my W520: not so rare.

    Then you're talking complete nonsense: The F4 key is stuck right next to F5 without proper spacing, pageUp and pageDown were moved and delete got a lot smaller and an idiotic position. Not to say anything about the missing Menu key, the missing forward/back buttons (basicly 4th and 5th mouse button), etc.

    Don't make me laugh. Do you get paid for this propaganda? Delete is now on the farthest edge of the keyboard; on the xx20 keyboards it is closer.

    You could already do that with the 7 row layout. As a matter of fact: even without your arms to the rear, because PageUp/ PageDown were comfortable located on the top of the keyboard.

    Putting them above each other in a well spaced-out block makes them a lot easier to find then putting them in a giant, unspaced, row.

    What means they got even smaller... how insane is that... correcting one giant fck-up with the other... on the xx30 they got smaller as well.

    Yup, I know them as qwerty-US and qwerty-UK; I avoid the UK one. Why ever thought it was a good idea to cut the left shift in half...?

    A rather poor situation, considering the xx20 series has four dedicated buttons: mute audio, mute mic, volume up, volume down. Both mute buttons have an indicator light in the button.

    Even my 2 year old nephew can point out to you that the bezel isn't gone. Actually, it looks even bigger. Not that there is any use in a notebook that's less deep; not a single bag or sheet of paper follows that form factor.

    There are way too much idiotic layouts around. The few that prevail in useability are the 7-row TP keyboard and the normal 104 key desktop layout. Coming from the latter, a 7-row TP keyboard is easier to get used to then a 6 row.

    We already get it that you have strange, kinda pro-Lenovo marketing, opinions. As for the delete: Lenovo might just as well remove it, like Apple did. I mean: if you made the Delete key an option, there would probably be few takers...

    Err... no, they got flat again. And not a single reason was given for it. Nobody from Lenovo's side ever came up with why this new layout would be better. All we got was a whining blogpost about how people like me should "Give in and get used to it" while whining about the addition of a "backlight" got no attention because of us "whiners". Yeah... a backlight... another completely useless "feature" that panders to the lowest common denominator. But hey, it's great to find keys.... keys you normally could find blind, but now are displace

    Don't you just like everything they come up with?

    No, not really.

    If it really was, Lenovo would have come up with that in a blog post, instant of with a rant about it's most loyal customers.

    How on earth does the 7th row get "in their way"? And no; you're T440 isn't so small it can't fit a 7-row keyboard. The bezel got bigger and the touchpad got bigger. And like I said before: the change to wider and less deep is complete nonsense: it's not needed anywhere.
     
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