But Lenovo did manage to become to only PC maker to be growing market share in the past few years while all others seem to be fading away. I'm not convinced that even IBM would have managed to keep the diehard Thinkpad fans so diehard in the current era of tablet, ultrabooks and mobile devices. In that sense I think 2007 was the end of an era... not of Thinkpads, but of the idea that corporate laptops were the state of the art of mobile computing.
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Who want a Thinkpad, and not just a laptop. If they are all the same, just give me that one, yeah, that, that is $5 cheaper than the other one, please.ajkula66 likes this. -
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That said I will admit that I'm tempted to get a T430 to accompany me to the office, as long as I can get one with discrete graphics and the 1600x900 display for a decent price. I've been carting the M6700 to and from for the time being, but I'd like something a little more portable at times. I haven't tried the new keyboard style, but at least those come with physical Trackpoint buttons. -
Interesting info. This is likely crazy, but do you suppose there's a chance of a Linux model with the classic 7 row keyboard?
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No, since Lenovo is not selling Linux models (other than in China) - also, this would mean they would have to redesign nearly the entire chassis and the display bezel, which is not going to happen.
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But I do agree with you that Lenovo is gonna be slapping on the thinkpad brand on everything. Some are gonna be duds but some are nice additions I think (e.g. milspec Thinkpad Yoga is pretty good attempt I think but not the best as battery life isn't that good for me). Overall, more choice = good thing. -
Interestingly, it's always somebody else to blame with Lenovo. 16:9 screens? LCD manufacters conspiracy. Incredibly bad screens? Adding a decent screen costs a lot of money, nobody wants them. Keyboard layout destroyed? Evil Microsoft, no less. Trackpoint all but destroyed (next step - make it optical, like in Thinkpad Tablet 1)? Blame Apple glass trackpad.MiB likes this. -
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I just want a proper source for such a strong statement. Directly from Lenovo or Microsoft, not from unrelated individuals who are employed by neither.
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When it comes to Trackpoint and touchpad Lenovo has already released a perfect combination - X1 Carbon has dedicated Trackpoint buttons and buttonless (=large) touchpad.
And as I do not like some of the design changes in the new generations, I'm probably doomed to get T440s - it's light, has nice screen and Haswell so it's going to run long on batteries. Zbook 14 will probably be way to expensive so the only remaining Haswell ultrabook with Trackpoint is Dell 7440.
And if it hadn't been for Trackpoint I would just get some Samsung ultrabook - it's light, has decent screen and is cheaper. -
I'm 100% holding onto both my T61 and X301 ( bought both brand new ). My T61 is going on 6 years old and I still use it daily for 3+ hours a day. Only had to reformat the hard drive a few times ( not too bad, since I used Rescue and Recovery ), other than that it's been great.
My next computer though will be a 27" iMac. I haven't used a desktop computer since 1998, and I think I will REALLY like upgraing to a desktop, since the T61 stays on my desk anyway 99.9% of the time.
Oh, and I have used the T530 that I ordered for my parents ( and promplty returned ). The keyboard layout was horrible, even though the keys felt OK. My mother wasn't a big fan of it either, and hated the screen / layout as well. -
Jayayess1190 Waiting on Intel Cannonlake
Since I have no money I will continue to use my X220. My next computer will either be a Broadwell or Skylake powered 13" MBP or Thinkpad Yoga. And then the X220 will probably maybe replace the Acer Timeline 3810T that is the "house" computer at my parents house (what they use to do stuff forbidden on their work laptops). I had admired Thinkpad's for a while, especially the X Series and am glad I finally got one. But at the same time I feel I could sell my X220 and while I would miss it, I would be ok.
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I've got a W520 with a sane keyboard layout. I hope it lasts at least until;
-I don't need a mobile workstation
-Something new and better with a "normal" keyboard comes out
-I die
Whatever comes firstajkula66 likes this. -
Maybe a little early to call time of death for Thinkpad's, but I'm fearing the worst:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/len...website-ips-screen-1080p-174.html#post9398674 -
My long answer: "Thinkpad" is just a word, and it obviously means different things to different people. To some, it means a 7-row keyboard--others, a blue enter key (funny, because my first TP had a black enter key, and I remember people complaining about this new-fangled blue enter key....) Me? It means a reliable, durable, serviceable machine; and above all,one that has good inputs.
I love the new keyboard, and a bigger trackpad is definitely welcome. I'm willing to wait for some more reviews regarding the changes to the trackpoint buttons. Claims that the "trackpoint is essentially dead" are, frankly, pretty silly if they're done with no first-hand experience with it--particularly in light of the fact that there's 1 single on-hand review (and it's positive). I'll wait and see.
I work remotely and my computer is basically my home office (even when I'm home). So, the tiresome rhetoric about TP's now being toys because they have large trackpads or whatever is just that to me: tiresome rhetoric. To me, the T440 looks to be the perfect machine for my uses--a little bigger IPS screen with a better trackpad. After using a T61 for 5 years, I didn't really plan on switching from the X230 any time soon--but I may give a go and will the X230 to my wife.ibmthink likes this. -
The keyboard is subjective. The one in the X230//T430 is fine, and the typing experience is slightly better, but the layout and deletion of certain buttons is compromised for a lot of people. Some will be able to get over it. The keyboard feel was also not great in the T431s, but ibmthink assures it'll be better in the T440s.
Materials, there's a definite drop in actual or at least perceived quality. It reminded me of what you get with an Edge product.
I was one of the ones that defended Thinkpad's in the last few weeks when all the long-time users were trashing the new ones. But having used the first model of this new type of Thinkpad, so far it's been a let down.
Hopefully the T440s won't have any of the other weaknesses of the T431s apart from the trackpoint, we'll see soon. I will buy one and return if necessary. -
The new lid material is not of worse quality. Instead, it does not pick up fingerprints or dirt as easy. If you like an material or not is subjective. The new palmrest material of the T440s is clearly better than the pure plastic you get with the T420 or even the rubbery material you get with a ThinkPad Twist for example.
The keyboard is better than on the T430u or the T420, at least in my opinion. I also have the direct comparison with the R50e (NBM keyboard, made in Thailand), and I like both the same. The feel is not the same, but they are both very good.
Honestly, I can say 1 hr is not enough to judge the new TrackPoint solution. As I mentioned in my review, the feeling is first a bit "akward", but after a few days (or a few hours for me) it gets better. However, this is also subjective. I like the flexibility of the new design very much, because I can now use the hole TrackPad as a button. -
I responded to your post here -
The utter shame is in Lenovo pandering to this lowest common denominator. The same can be said on 16:9 vs 16:10, especially since the "gained" space is just for empty plastic.
If I was an insurance company that offers insurance against RSI to employers that employ people like me I would give them a discount for supplying xx20 series keyboards vs xx30 series keyboards....
Also note that with the xx10 series Thinkpads Lenovo made the Delete and Escape buttons larger. Either the reasons they gave for that was total bs, or they ignore their own logic with the current 6-row keyboards. -
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The rest of us have alternatives (obviously not as good as the real ThinkPads years back). -
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That's notebookcheck's review. By your definition, isn't that "crap on the stick"?
I've used a friend's MBA for a while, and there's a lot I like about it; however, I certainly don't agree that it "slams everything in the market", buy a longshot: the glossy display doesn't work for me--at all, the keyboard isn't that great to type on (subjective, but my opinion), and I like being able to have a second battery I can swap (the hot-swappable battery is the ideal solution for me). I'm also not thrilled with the idea that I can't easily upgrade memory, replace the disc drive or change out the battery. The biggest drawback to me though was that it got insanely hot. OTOH, the trackpad was great (though interesting to hear it's way better than the new Lenovo one which I'm guessing you have yet to use...), it's very portable and seems well-built.
I'm not "anti-Apple" or "pro-Lenovo". I just want a machine that works well for me, regardless of manufacture. Right now, Lenovo's Thinkpads seem to fit the best for my needs. To each his own, but portraying stuff as "crap on a stick" because it doesn't fit some idealized version of what people think "Thinkpad" means to them just seems a bit silly.
BTW, my X230 is of much higher quality than either my Thinkpad 560 or my T61. The hinges on both of those machines were shot within the first year, and I was on my 3rd or 4th keyboard on my "legendary T61" when the motherboard fried... My 560 always had boot issues the entire time I owned it and I was cleaning the fan obsessively to keep the temps down. Again MY OPINION, the magical days of the old thinkpads are seen by rose-colored glasses by many. The new machines seem to be of higher-quality. -
Whatever floats your boat Jack.
My definition of crap on stick is this sorry excuse for a trackpad Lenovo slapped on the T440s and stuck a Thinkpad sticker on it.
I've had enough 'debating' with Lenovo shills for today. Have a good one -
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Both my '02 A31p and my '06 T43p sport original hinges that are as good as new, and neither of these laptops was babied. Now what?
IBM and Lenovo each had their share of duds, as well as their bright moments. That's beside the point of this thread, though.
People who "hunt & peck" while typing on their ThinkPads will NEVER be able to understand what Lenovo did to the rest of us by removing the 7-row layout.
I have a W520 here that we might or might not keep depending on a number of factors. It's a fine machine, but it doesn't feel like a $3K workstation in my opinion.
Should we end up keeping the W520 that will undoubtedly be the final ThinkPad in this household, bought for one reason only: neither of the adults here feels like re-learning to type at our age.
If someone is interested in a properly-built, business-grade notebook with QC and support that is second to none, I strongly recommend looking into Panasonic's non-fully-rugged offerings...presuming they can afford one. -
I realize that some folks did extensively use those functions in the top row. Personally, I've found other methods faster and more convenient. I agree, it would have been nice if Lenovo offered the legacy keyboard as an option, at least on one key model. It seems they would have saved some ill will among some folks--though I also bet the take rate would be shockingly low.
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What you seem to forget is the fact that for users who didn't care about the top row - such as yourself - there were always other, non-ThinkPad options available.
For those of us who *did* care, and used the top row extensively, the old layout was the *only* option.
Too bad we don't have an opportunity to actually bet on something along the lines of your proposal, since I'd be more than willing to take you up on it...
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But if I have to re-learn to type all over again I don't need to use a ThinkPad anymore, do I?
In a sense, this could be a newly found freedom for many of us - to use different laptops instead of just ThinkPads - now that the keyboard layout has been changed.
Not that anyone had asked for such a freedom in the first place... -
Basically, I just think the TB is a different product all together than the TP (past or current). The real question to me is whether or not TP's are as reliable and durable as they once where. The quality on my X230 seems really good--but as I said before, time will tell. -
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I really don´t know what "relearn to type" means. The switch between the chiclet key design and the normal key design is without any relearning process combined. Only the layout is different, but you can get quickly used to it if you want to (at least I could). "relearn" implies that you would have to learn typing again from scratch. Thats not the case.
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For those who rarely - or never - had any use for the 7th row, and/or aforementioned shortcuts, it's not a big deal whatsoever.
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The fact that I've been a ThinkPad buff for years hasn't kept me from exploring other high-end offerings...at any point in the game.
As for the pricing, with Panasonic one gets what they pay for, period. Like they did with ThinkPads from the IBM era, at least for the most part. -
Layouts are just something you don't mess with, period. How do you think Murray Perahia would have reacted if a theater he visited had a piano with a "different layout"?
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If the industry would follow your argument, cars would still have the same button and control layout inside as the first cars and keyboars would still have the same layout as the AT keyboard for example.
In an industry that is still evolving and trying to innovate (which the piano "industry" clearly is not!) changes are normal.
I like the new layout more, because Delete is easier to reach and find for me, PageUp/Down are easier to use than before (you can now use them with two fingers at the same time). Pos1 and End are not often used by me, but they are also easy to find, as on the new Tx40 models Lenovo has returned to the seperation of the F-keys in groups (on the T430u without the grouping it was a bit difficult). -
Yet, believe it or not, there are plenty of people who do use these keys. Menu key has a purpose too, and so is Insert (which isn't gone from all Thinkpads yet, just from the half of them). And if you liked the PgUp/PgDn next to arrow keys, you could have made Forward/Back to be them in about 10 mouse clicks with the old keyboard layout. It just had keys where the new layout has empty plastic.
There is nothing the new layout makes easier. There are plenty of things the new layout makes worse. There was innovation in the keyboard, where people we thinking how to improve them, and enhance them, rather than destroy them:
The new keyboard - A “Wow” Layout - - Design - Lenovo Blogs
ThinkPad T400s: Key to a Better Experience - Design - Lenovo Blogs
What we have today is not innovation, not in layout, nor in trackpoint, no matter how apologetic you want to be. It's plain and simple degradation. And it is a big deal for quite a few people, many of which bought Thinkpads in the first place for the features that are now legacy.
P.S. And yes, pretty much any decent desktop keyboard has the same layout as "enhanced" 100-something IBM PC keyboard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ModelM.jpg. -
ajkula66 likes this.
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View attachment 102968
And even if you rearrange Back and Forward to PageUp and Down, the Delete key is still easier to reach and find on the new layout in my opinion.
Anyway, this discussion is pointless. Obviously, we won´t get to a point where we will agree. -
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No, it does not. It feels better, for me. And there are many others that agree that it feels at least as good as the old keyboard. You will have to accept that the typing feel is subjective.
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Holding on to 'end of era' Thinkpad's
Discussion in 'Lenovo' started by vinuneuro, Sep 15, 2013.