Holding on to 'end of era' Thinkpad's

For me, i hate the fact that Lenovo moved the multimedia control and sound control to the function key group, then killed off battery control shortcut.

In the old day, i can very easily control the multimedia stuff not even having to look at the keyboard. Now i am having the issue of having to look at the function key to know which button i am pressing, like the Apple keyboard.

Also, Apple kept the indicator light on the caps lock, the LED indicator is now MIA in the new ThinkPad.

 

Yeah, this keyboard setup is really not optimal. I spent some time yesterday trying to figure out how to remap keys to get back some functionality, but I still won't be able to have everything I might like given the smaller number of keys present. I use the volume controls and the FWD / BKWD navigation buttons A LOT, so those are going to be the worst to lose.

I think I'm just going to skip this gen and hold out for the x450 and see what happens. I just put a new (non-NVIDIA) board in my T61, so I can hold out a while longer. I don't do anything heavy-duty, although it would be nice to have an IPS screen and a lighter load to carry around.

 

That's one of the things that ticked me off with the Ivy Bridge (and later) Thinkpads... I absolutely LOVE the forward/back navigation keys and I couldn't imagine myself not being able to have them on my X61t/W520. Why in the world did they get rid of those?

 

I think the pgup and pgdn keys can be remapped to those functions (given that they're in the right location, I hope so!) if/when I finally bite the bullet.

 

I'm disappointed in the new Thinkpads. Will be holding on to my T420 for awhile.


T420 and X220 are the last true Thinkpads. Treasure them.

 

unimpressed by any new thinkpads, the only reason i really want a change from the t420 is the bad screen. if i ever get another thinkpad it'll probably be an x220 with ips. the zbooks are interesting but i don't know about build quality or pricing. and they're a bit ugly too.

 

w520 feels like a true thinkpad also

 

If they're anything like the previous-generation Elitebooks, they will feel stupidly-solid and durable. I played around with my sister's 8570p and honestly it felt hetter-built than my W520.

 

My kids prefer on-screen keyboard in mobile devices and don't seem to care about physical keyboards. Hunt-n-peck typing is certainly more efficient, and more visible, especially if need to use more than one keyboard layout. Just slow, but they don't care.

So if we're after what kids want, physical keyboards are doomed, 6 rows or 7

 

That may very well be the case . . .

My kIds know how to operate a TrackPoint, though. Much better than l can type on a on- screen keyboard ... .

 

It surely has been tried already, Sony P series tablet, some dual-screen book-like Asus, and many more to come.

The end result of it, I'm afraid, is going to be lots of health problems with heavy users. Tiny screens with high information density requiring focusing on them at really short distances, hard on-screen keyboards, "iPad neck" is already known thing...

 

I dont have any hands on with the W series, but looking online your right.

 

It certainly feels like a Thinkpad, compared to older models. Only obvious difference being the 16:9 display vs 16:10/4:3.

 

People can complain all day long on forums; they can write letters, they can sign petitions or do similar things. The only thing that will matter is if people buy these notebooks or not.

If a person complains about a particular notebook and yet goes out and buys it, that complaint is worthless. I've seen a lot of negative feedback on the new Haswell lineup of the Thinkpads so I'm wondering if these people will go and buy these notebooks anyway. I think many will even though these are the same people who are writing posts about the product.

If one goes to a restaurant and the food and/or service is bad, the way to fix the situation is to stay away next time - the complaining and whining only goes so far. If people really take their keyboards, trackpoints, screens, or any other aspect seriously, then don't buy that particular product. This may or may not make the company change to your ways but it will show you're being consistent.

 

You're right bluebird20, I think (hopefully) all of the die-hards are staying away. I'm obviously not going to get a new Thinkpad personally, but I'm also no longer purchasing them for the company as well. Hopefully if enough admins make the change, Lenovo will get the message.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I've decided to sit this one out and see what comes along in June.

Re: admins getting the message, hopefully it's "we're changing the TPs too much!" instead of "we're not changing them fast enough!"

 

Personally they've lost my business and my recommendations to friends/family. I'm not an admin of anything (got out of the fields a while ago) and am just the 'tech guy friend' so they probably don't care about me anyway. I could put up with almost any change until they started messing with the keyboard. Chiclet, function key changes, keyboard layout changes, loss of forward/back buttons are all things I really dislike but could maybe learn to live with. Removing trackpoint buttons on top of all that is a deal breaker.

 

Do tech admins decide what brand of notebooks the company buys? I would have thought this stuff is all contracted. I don't have any experience with big corporations. But most small to medium sized companies don't even have 'Tech stuff', we either just ring up dell or outsource. I can't imagine a tech stuff going up to the boss and saying. Ok next year we all switch to dell because lenovo cut the trachpoint keys. Most companies just stick with what they are using. I certainly don't think trackpoint buttons and a few missing keys will convince the boss to witch brands. I doubt employees care either.

I have a feeling the new laptops are all aimed at small-medium businesses where the clientele care less about legacy layouts and input devices. Price and market trend matter much more in this sector. Market trend is not always bad. Many would say Apple forced the industry to make better products simply because they started the Thin and light trend. The IPS retina displays can also be partially attributed to the market trend started by apple.

The question is, does DELL or HP have a better product? Enough to convince people to change over?

I want lenovo to prioritize getting more power into the 14inch form factor and redesigning the chasis without the DVD drive. And make everything thinner if possible, yes it is a market trend and one that most people can appreciate.

 

The large institutional buyers, who buy ThinkPads by the 1,000s, care mostly about two things - cost and compatibility. The ThinkPad you've described sounds like the new ones about to come out, minus the quad core of course.

 

My last company was large, and we had a service agreement with Dell so everyone got to pick from...a list of preselected Dell laptops. An IT support department was in charge of keeping everything running, so they got to choose everyone's laptop for ease of support.

At smaller companies it is likely that no such department exists yet, so all support and procurement reponsibilities fall to the only 'computer guys' around: admins and the devs. Honestly almost no non-IT staff have even heard of the Thinkpad brand in my experience, if you ask new hires what they want it's almost always a Dell of some sort.

 

The die hard fans talking about the old thinkpad keyboards/trackpoint buttons reminds me of when Blackberry changed their scroll wheel to a trackball...haha

 

And BlackBerry's not doing too well now, which is the fate I predict for the ThinkPad segment of Lenovo's offerings in a few years...

 

I don't share your predicament. Lenovo's last earnings announcement beat estimates.

I would actually argue the opposite. If Lenovo kept doing what they were doing 5 years ago, they might be like Blackberry now (e.g. because only their small die hard fans would buy the thinkpads while the rest buys macbooks). You could sort of see it when IBM sold it to Lenovo.

Now, they are making many more models to cater for all the people who wants different things. Their marketing sucks though coz everyone seems to complain about opposite things haha They need to learn from Apple

So I echo what ibmthink posted earlier.

 

They beat estimates with mobile and tablet sales in China, certainly not from the changes they've made to the laptop lines since the pc/laptop market is shrinking.

 

My predicament? Which aspect of it? And what would you know about it to begin with...

Most of Lenovo's revenue comes from phones, not ThinkPads. They've admitted having a (ridiculously) low profit margin on the latter...

Not necessarily. IBM had its less-than-stellar moments, and Lenovo had its bright ones. It's the loss of leadership mentality which is most troubling in my opinion.

IBM wasn't copying anyone. The rest of the PC world was copying them. Lenovo's trying to be an "advanced-grade" copycat, but that hardly makes it any better...

They are trying very hard to learn from Apple, but are doing an incredibly poor job at it. On all levels. And I'm the farthest thing on Earth from an Apple fanboy.

 

They actually grew profits in the PC market despite it being shrinking. It's just that their other business units make up a bigger share of the profits now.

 

As mentioned, the sales figures show they are doing ok (relative to peers) on laptops despite the shrinking PC market.

Anyways, back to regular thread posting on nostalgia and the good ol days!

 

As did RIM's (BlackBerry) five years ago if you're catching my drift...

Research in Motion sales and profits double - Apr. 2, 2008

 

Apple outsold Lenovo last quarter (2Q 13) and they did it with only 2 PC lineups with the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. They don't sell $500 PCs like Lenovo either.

Company Units Market Share
Apple 18,631,330 17.1%
Lenovo 14,114,820 12.9%

Which is why Lenovo is desperately trying to copy Apple in hopes to gain market share, but instead they're sacrificing their established ThinkPad pro users in the process which is extremely short sighted. If they wanted to leverage the ThinkPad brand and copy Apple, they should have split the brand into ThinkPad and ThinkPad pro labels and released models that cater to both.

Instead they have a mess of overlapping Thinkpads and Ideapads that no one can keep track of. Last year's T430s was a full cpu powered slim notebook for professionals that needed something light and powerful. This year's same model series iteration T440s is reduced to measly low power ultrabook and not a very sleek one at that. The 2013 Macbook Air has a larger capacity battery in half the thickness, higher end CPU, HD 5000 GPU and PCIe SSDs. Every couple of weeks Lenovo releases another model to the point where no one even within their company can keep up and they're forgotten about 2 months later.

Lenovo lacks focus and continues to throw buckets of spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. Their so far behind in the race that they actually think their leading.

 

RIM did not fail because they followed the trends, the failed because they didn´t react on the trend fast enough and because they only relied on the business sector, which increasingly moved to Apple over time, because the employees wanted Apple smartphones instead of new Blackberrys.

Lenovo is now doing the opposite: They are now reacting quickly to the trends (which is the right thing if they don´t want to be left behind) and they are trying to prevent that more businesses move towards Apple and their Macbooks (for example, by building in better TrackPads, because the most people today use Trackpads, also in Business).

I think, your prediciton will turn out wrong. Different from Dell and HP, Lenovo is a (increasingly) important player in the smartphone and tablet market as well, which will be the most important markets in the next years.

Sorry, but please try to fool somebody else. You know that this not only includes Macbooks (Air & Pro) like you are trying to tell us, it also includes iPads. These datas are useless if you want to compare the PC or Notebook shipments.

Lenovo is the market leader when it comes to PCs: Lenovo Overtakes HP as the Top PC Vendor While U.S. Shipments Stabilize in the Second Quarter of 2013, According to IDC - prUS24213513 Apple is not even in the top 5 when it comes to desktops and notebooks.

 

I just love posts from inside the crystal ball. Next...

And I wrote, earlier on in this thread:

Of course, Lenovo might very well prove me wrong by slapping a "ThinkPad" logo on every single smartphone, tablet and accessory...come to think of it, they probably will...

 

Still, that changes nothing about the difference between Lenovo´s strategy with the ThinkPad brand and RIMs strategy with the Blackberry phones some years ago.

I am just doing the same thing as you do, you say the ThinkPad brand will fail, and I say the opposite. So, I guess you also have a crystal ball at home?

 

That's quite an indictment, comming from a master Lenovo forum manipulator himself. You conveniently posted a link where the global sales table doesn't include Apple

Why not scroll down a little further on your own link to the table for US PC sales (no tablets, ipads, phones) where Apple is actually INCLUDED.


Top 5 Vendors, United States PC Shipments, Second Quarter 2013 (Preliminary) (Units Shipments are in thousands)
3. Apple 1,806 11.5%
4. Lenovo 1,530 9.8%

*PCs include Desktops, Portables, Mini Notebooks, and Workstations and do not include handhelds, x86 Servers, and Tablets (i.e. iPad and Android-based Tablets with detachable keyboards). Data for all vendors are reported for calendar periods.

So how in the world did Apple sell more PCs with just 2 models than Lenovo with over 200 different models?

:hi2:

 

Sure, the US. Are the US more important than Europe and China for the PC OEMs?

The USA are for Apple what China is for Lenovo, their home market where they are strong (not to mention the US way of thinking "supporting our own manufactures").

Why can´t you discuss fair? Why getting personal? It is just not ok to say "Apple is better than Lenovo in Notebook sales" if you use data that includes the iPad. The data I posted is from IDC, and they don´t include the iPad.

Yes. Because they does not sell enough to be even considered a top 5 PC vendor.

 

It's now just what either of us says, it's *how* it's being said...

I wrote: "my prediction..."

You wrote: "your prediction will turn out wrong".

Neither of us is a native English speaker, but you have an excellent command of English language and I'm dead certain that you do understand the difference.

 

Looking at the older Thinkpad keyboards from the X220 and T420 (though never owning them) they did look quite nice. Very distinct. But since the rest of the industry is moving towards chiclets, like Apple , I guess the Thinkpads must follow behind. Since the rest of the industry is heading towards less customization and thinness and trendy designs, Lenovo's products must also follow behind.

Interestingly, Dell and HP have not followed the same course in many ways. Even though they have introduced several thin and light products, such as the Precision M3800 and the Latitude 7000 series, and HP's Zbook 14, they are still updating their mainstream business notebooks rather than transforming them to industry trends. Their keyboards are still similar to what people were accustomed to and their trackpoint buttons are still there.

The point is that there are alternative to Thinkpads and there always have been. Thinkpads have changed so users who are used to them must realize this. Accept the changes or move to another laptop.

 

Which is precisely the point. They are reacting quickly to trends and produce a pile of me-too products nobody can distinguish from the 3 other laptops on the same shelf.

Yet IBM before, or Apple now, were not reacting quickly to trends. They were setting trends, at least in some areas. IBM was brave enough to say firmly that yes, we know how to control mouse cursor on a laptop faster, and without moving your hands from keyboard typing position. Spend a few minutes and learn Trackpoint (and pretty soon most business-oriented machines from HP/Dell/even Samsung got a similar device). IBM was brave enough to say: we know how laptop has to look like, and you can't mistake a Thinkpad for an Acer or Sony. Apple had enough guts not to add the trackpoint, or mouse physical buttons, or redesign keyboard layout every year, or do many "trendy" things to their MacBooks.

This is one of the things that defines premium things: think, make choices and stick to it. And Thinkpad brand = very conservative work machine dissolves quickly, continuously replaced with random Acer-like design, "me too" internals, painted in dark colors. Pink and silver Thinkpads coming next. "End of era" indeed, and that "Thinkpad", while bringing some cash to Lenovo short term, just will not last.

 

The problem that most of the old-time ThinkPad users have with the "new" keyboard design is not the island (chiclet) type of keyboard used, but the layout change. The keyboard per se - judging by W530 and X230 that I've tried - is actually quite good.

Well, Dell held onto non-chicklet keyboards but is now dropping the IPS option from its workstation range, while HP was the one who adopted the island keyboard first amongst the "big three" but is still offering DC panels...can't win with these guys no matter how I go about it...

There was a time - presuming one's budget wasn't an issue - when there were really no good alternatives to ThinkPads. Those days are long gone, partially due to other manufacturers catching up, and partially due to IBM and Lenovo dropping several balls...

My predicament (yes, we're getting to *that* word again, but used in its proper meaning this time around) is that I want a workstation-class laptop that sports a conventional keyboard layout and a high-resolution, high-quality IPS LCD. Guess what: there isn't one.

So, I've got two cards left to play:

a) A Precision 6700 (got one on the way) while saying numerous prayers that my wife (a ThinkPad-junkie since the mid-90s) will swallow the keyboard, unlike the one on 8740W that I ended up returning, or

b) A maxed-out W520, with a "known good" keyboard and likely the best non-IPS LCD on the market...

No winning there either...

 

There is the Precision M4800 with the QHD+ 3800x1800 screen but it won't be fully customizable for a few weeks I believe. You can still buy the non-customized models right now though. I'm pretty sure you can find something out there that you and your wife will like.

As for the new keyboard on Thinkpads, you are right in that the overall quality is great. I was just commenting on how the old ones look - very distinct.

 

I can distinguish my T440s very easy from every other Notebooks from other manufactures.

Yep, IBM was setting trends, as long as the Notebook space was not commodizised.

And thats still the case with ThinkPads today...

Nonsense. I don´t think you are using one of the new ThinkPads yet (like me), thats just not true.

Illusional and impossible, especially in the Notebook market.

 

Well, Honda Accord isn't exactly Toyota Camry, sure. Both are fine cars, please a lot of people, get from A to B.

Apple somehow manages, and even sells enough *units* in the US and Europe to be considered a major player. Quite a few people do crazy things with it, such as putting Windows or Linux on it, something it deliberately does not handle too well.

Why? Because they are setting trends. It's a rigged game: if you don't do this, you'll be always "reacting to trends", too little too late, and have little profits from a huge number of units. Of course, then you emphasize that you sold more units than the premium vendor, market share, blah blah.

No, I'm not. And I'm seriously considering products of other vendors now, because with every generation things that made Thinkpad the obvious choice before are disappearing. And things that are added, "me too", are available elsewhere.

And it's plain silly for Lenovo: they're not going to make a lot of money by applying Thinkpad logo to everything that remotely looks like a laptop. But they are eliminating the vendor lock in factors. If you know how to use Trackpoint, it's REALLY hard to use laptops from other brands. If you got used to 7 rows layout, and type a lot, use keyboard shortcuts, doing so on any other keyboard is exercise in frustration, and you'll pay a few extra bucks to get the same keyboard again in the next device. If you have whole office stuffed with Mini Dock 3, compatible with ALL laptops of xx10 and xx20 and xx30 generation, from T410 to W530, you know from where your next batch of laptops is coming from.

 

I find this a rather odd debate and it brings to mind similar online debates I've seen over the years bemoaning the "end of an era" about every 3-4 years with Thinkpads, from the tears shed over the demise of the 600E and introduction of the T-series to the end of the 4:3 screen era to the introduction of the new chassis with the T400 etc. Personally I think the current T-series line was looking a bit long in the tooth, design-wise, and needed a refresh. Some might like the new design, others will hate it, but that's nothing new in the history of Thinkpads IMO.

The buttonless trackpad and the paltry 42mm M.2 slot are the only gripes that stick in my head so far with the newest generation, but until I've tried a new machine I have no idea if I'll like the trackpad or not. IMO the criticism of the chiclet keyboard is overblown and the few Lenovo ones I've tried are no worse than the older style I have on my T420 which, while good for a laptop, is still pretty bad when compared to the cherry brown/blue keyboards I use for heavy typing. The new minimalist look of the T-series is welcome IMO. While I have nothing against the old look of Thinkpads I would not describe them as attractive in any way (YMMV).

Thinkpads used to be behind the hardware curve in favor of reliability and longevity. Sadly being behind the curve in terms of hardware is no longer gonna sell units, and increasingly in this age of BYOD nor is looking "old fashioned", so it's hardly surprising Lenovo is changing things. I wonder what IBM would have done to keep sales up in this current era of portable computing if it still owned the Thinkpad line?

Ultimately I started buying Thinkpads almost 15 years ago for three main reasons -- they were well built and reliable, had a good keyboard (for a laptop) and had a good warranty. If Lenovo can keep those key attributes then it'll continue to have my business, whatever the machines look like.

 

Things that Lenovo did with keyboard layout and trackpoint are unprecedented. Never before keys were removed from keyboard or rearranged in the most ridiculous manner, with "improvement" randomly applied every year.

With X220 there was as full keyboard as can be had on a small laptop. With X230 it's no longer possible to press Ctrl+Break or Windows+Pause easily, and function keys are stuck together. With X240, the whole set of CUA keyboard shortcuts for Copy/Paste (far more convenient in some situations than Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V, as Ctrl+C is 'abort'), go out of the window together with Insert key and separate volume/mute keys.

 

by "nothing new in the history of thinkpads" I was referring more to how opinion is divided with a redesign as opposed to specific features. From what I remember there have been plenty of big changes that all drew the ire of some people over the years, from minor things like the addition of the Windows key on the keyboard or the introduction of a center button for the trackpoint through to the introduction of trackpads and the change to wide screens. I guess it's a matter of perspective as to how significant such changes are. In the history of Thinkpads there have been 6-row keyboards before, albeit a long time ago

As for the new keyboard I'll wait and see how the new layout works before I pass judgement. I suspect I'll get used to it pretty fast, but one does wonder what the reasoning was behind the new version. I assume there was some reason for the change. And I must admit that I rarely use the trackpoint now but have been frustrated by the crummy trackpad on my T420, so am looking forward to what I hope will be an improved trackpad.

 

Since 6-row keyboard were mandated by Microsoft, you should blame them, not Lenovo. 6-row keyboards are a requirement by Microsoft for Windows 8.

I like the 6-row layout and prefer it over the old 7-row keyboard already.

 

Do you have any more details of that requirement? As apparently not everybody in Microsoft was so informed, and up to this day they produce 100+ keys full desktop keyboards, marked with "Windows 8 Compatible", where Ctrl+Insert/Shift+Insert works as before, Windows+Pause is still a useful shortcut in Windows 8 etc? And this 6 row keyboard requirement didn't stop Acer from producing 5 rows keyboard (absolutely incredible layout, yet I'm sure there are people who like that too and prefer to anything else).

I mean, yeah, on Surface they had to sacrifice things to fit, 10" screen requires sacrifices, but why Lenovo copycats, sorry, responds to trend, and copies this in 12.5" laptops? And I doubt that it's Microsoft who prohibit dedicated volume / microphone buttons.

Also, and actually worse, with Lenovo there isn't A 6 row keyboard layout. There are 6 row keyboard layoutS, with Thinkpads, at least 3 or 4 different ones in the last 2 gens. For some this is "responding to trends", for others it's "being completely lost and incapable of just thinking for a second and decide".

 

Source, please.

 

This discussion is funny and cool. Looking at all the old Thinkpads, you can see there will also be a set of diehards for each Thinkpad generation as mentioned by pipspeak. When Lenovo comes up with a new design change in the next few years, people will reminisce over the T440s/p/etc design haha (and saying how it was perfect for them, etc).

What Lenovo needs is the diehard fans that Apple has - i.e. they will support and make arguments for Apple no matter what even if Apple comes up with new products that contradict the fans' own previous arguments. Lenovo needs better marketing!

 

Well, Lenovo inherited a stunningly strong fan base from IBM when it comes to ThinkPads, but wasn't interested in keeping it, didn't know how to keep it, or all of the above.

 

I'm sort of a diehard fan... I certainly always go back to Thinkpads after checking out other manufacturers. And therein lies the problem with the PC/Windows market -- too many choices means far less brand loyalty. Sadly PC makers seem to be wedded to the idea that dozens of different models every year is the way to go. IMO it's not, as Apple has illustrated. I'm not sure any other brand will ever have the sort of sycophants that Apple has, however. No idea how that company got so many people to drink the coolaid and walk around so blinkered to Apple's shortcomings and the benefits of alternatives.

I own an ipad and while it's a decent piece of hardware it's no better or worse than many other tablets and iOS is utterly infuriating to me in its total lack of flexibility. The simple act of trying to get a file from a computer on to the iPad or iPhone is ridiculously complex. If I want to get a file onto my Android phone, I simply connect it via USB to my computer and drag across the file. I also used to use a new 2011 Macbook Pro at work. Both the hardware and OSX were extremely unreliable, despite the best efforts of the IT department. Never again.