Going back to Apple

mil-spec is not the highest benchmark, it just the requirements for the military industry, anyone that has served in the military has been in contact with MIL-SPEC gear during their entire service, and i for one know a lot about this, there are a lot of things that are mil-spec approved but are not durable enough to meet the needs of servicemen, such as firearms, flak jackets, vests, boots, etc and have heard of countless instances where the gear fails them in combat due to jams etc.. and in addition to this, i have worked in the military industry and there is gear that was NOT mil-spec but out performs the mil-spec gear but isn't mil-spec because it surpasses the benchmarks or uses different materials, mil-spec is how far can we push the cheapness of the object with it being able to do an OKAY job most of the time. but of course some computer people are going to think you can go around using your thinkpad as a baseball because it is milspec, far from it...

also you are comparing apples and oranges, business class vs consumer class laptop, i would love to see apple make a business class laptop, although it's not going to happen, guarantee it would do circles around the newer TP all day

 

That's nice and all, but does the rMBP perform well in the field, so to speak?

I wouldn't use a Thinkpad as a baseball bat. If I wanted that, I'd get a Toughbook

 

The MIL-SPEC standards also refers to the electronics themselves. Pressure , temperature , etc. affect how transistors behave.

 

i understand this... but it means very little as you can see

 

don't think i've ran into anyone using TP in the field either, and for very good reason, that is what toughbooks are for , i don't think a TP would survive an IED blast just as much as a mbp would.

 

Some ToughBooks or ToughPads can take stormy weather. I don't think any Mac can take that much water.

The keyboard in Macs can get ruined from the amount of water that ToughBooks would be fine in.

Even some Fujitsu laptop / tablets can take a good amount of water
Link

 

true but what does it have to do with build quality? never compared durability to either of them or ruggedness, build quality is materials plus fit and finish additionally with tolerances( like flexing ) added to the equation

i think words are being thrown around carelessly LoL, not sure if you guys know what they mean

 

Indeed.

In all fairness, comparing even a business-grade (semi-rugged) ToughBook to any other laptop will leave the latter in dust when it comes to durability...

For the purposes they are meant to serve in various industries and environments, Panasonics are extremely hard to fault.

 

I guess durability is the term I'm looking for but I value durability over build quality.

Macs get dented too easily , that's one point I'm trying to make. They aren't as durable as business notebooks.

I've seen people get their Macs dented in situations in which my ThinkPads would show no damage.

 

yeah it can go both ways, my sister has dropped her MBP several times while riding her bicycle, it does have dented corners, but it still works, she has also spilled water on it, few ports went out and some keys don't work, could have been worse, luckily i was there when it happened, instantly put it in a rice bag, next laptop she buys is going to be a TP and we will see how it puts up with her, but i do realize this is a 2008 MBP and i have handled newers one, can not say they will take the same abuse this one did.

 

FWIW, I have a thinkpad 600E i bought second hand in 2008 for 10$ that is still running today, no problems whatsoever. Same with the T30, the X41 tablet, and the X220 tablet (all of which I have bought second hand). Just get yourself a well sorted one, you should not have any problems. I am very pleased with the IPS display on the tablet, and the build quality is very solid, and the keyboard is truly a proper keyboard, not that chiclet crap. I put in a mSATA SSD, and it runs like a dream. A well taken care of thinkpad will run FOREVER. If something breaks, parts are not ridiculously over priced, and you can fix it yourself most of the time with the wealth of knowledge on youtube and these forums.

I had a friend of mine spill coffee on her brand new macbook pro 13" back in 2011 when we first entered college, and the cost to "repair" even with applecare crap was 700$

She went out and bought a new PC right after leaving the Apple store.


To be honest, I would have bought a rMBP 15" if the RAM and HDD were removable, but since they are not, God forbid anything goes wrong, you must replace the entire machine. Also, PC manufacterers do some heavy discounts near the end of the year, and periodically through out the next "model" year. I scored my Alienware M17x R3, priced at $2300, for the grand total of $1550 including accidental warranty. Try pulling that kind of discount with Apple.

 

The key wording to look for in the case of computers and consumer electronics is "designed" to meet MIL-SPEC standards. Designing to meet the specs is one thing. Having an independent lab test and certify is quite another. AFAIK the only laptops actually certified to MIL-SPEC standards with published results from independent labs are some of the Toughbooks and if you look at Panasonic's testing results even their Toughbooks fall short of what other manufacturers like HP *claim* their machines are designed to withstand. In other words, I'd take claims of "designed to MIL-SPEC standards" with a bucket-load of salt.

Has Lenovo published independent MIL-SPEC tests for the T540p?

 

I don't really care. Most of my points were subjective, but because a Mac does not suit my needs does not mean it will suit yours.

 

1. As nice as the rMBP is, my eyes can't make use of the extra pixels, forcing me to scale. However i can use 3K on a 15 inch without scaling.
2. T540p has room for more hard drives + optical. I don't care about thinness (subjective)
3. You don't buy a T540p for it's video card. You get a W540. But even there, what's forcing me to buy a business laptop? Lenovo's upcoming Y50 will crap on the rMBP, with both a better video card and a 4K Display, and for a lot less too, not to mention way better speakers.

I like some parts of OS X (unified GUI across 3rd party software, Time machine), but since most of the features i do like on OS X are on Linux (for free!), Linux is the superior choice in my books (subjective).

I don't care about milspec either, hence why i usually pick L series or Ideapads. I am careful with my laptops. And since i'm not a Trackpoint person, i welcomed Lenovo's new trackpad with open arms since the old one was pretty mediocre.

 

Indeed. I know a guy who's girlfriend hit him on the head with his (closed) mockbook couple years ago, his head was perfectly fine aside from the bump but the laptop got trashed. I dropped my W520 from about shoulder level onto concrete floor, lappy hit the concrete with it's left hinge corner. Result - a crack in the plastic of the lid and a crack in the plastic of the case, otherwise still works like nothing happened. Even then, I suspect the only reason it cracked at all was because it had Steve Wozniak's signature on it (met him couple years ago, didn't have anything more suitable to get his autograph on). Or was it the other way around and the guy's mockbook was lacking Wozniak's signature to protect it?

 

Speaking of water, my W520 (same that took a drop on concrete) got completely flooded with water - I managed to spill a full cup on it. After few hours of drying it started up and kept working again like nothing happened.

I've put my ThinkPads through a lot of crap, and while I don't have much opportunity to use them "in the field", I do use them quite a bit on the go - in the car, on the road, in the train, just on the street... Flooded them, dropped them, freezing-to-warm, dust, smoke, humidity... All the way from my first 600 to the latest Lenovo offerings they all still perform admirably where others turn to trash from a much more reasonable day-to-day use. They may sqeek or look (to some) butt-ugly, but they do their job regardless. And they work very nice with Linux on them

 

You can talk about durability of Macs and Thinkpad how much you want.I heard this i heard that ,but thank good for youtube.
Always On - Torture testing the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultrabook - YouTube
Always On - MacBook Air extreme torture test - YouTube
I know this for sure.If ever those bigoted types from apple comes to mind to implement Windows in Macbooks a lot of Lenovo and other PC factory's(but not Samsung) would be closed.

 

Something silly was written in this post. If someone can enlighten me on how to delete this post I'd appreciate that.

 

I've been a long time apple user, and for the most part their machines are well made, but I have also owned the X61 and that has also been a work horse as well. NO problems what so ever. If anything the only laptops I will buy are from lenovo or apple.

But for what its worth I am going back to the Windows platform. I do like the digitizer functionality on lenovo products. Their machines have always stood the test of time.

 

I liked this comment the best (from the Lenovo one):

Also, this person decided to open the thing up and just screw around in there? I'm sure that sort of treatment would kill any computer :/... Anyway, it's not like CNet's testing methods are rigorous, or really conclusive (any of their AO videos, not just these two).

Anyway, I'll just leave this here...

http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/735432-thinkpads-still-tough-stand-yours-prove.html

At least with a business laptop (well, the majority), it's pretty easy to replace parts. Something like a MBA/MBP/rMBP? Good luck...

 

^^^ You forgot this one Jarhead

Will It Fry- IBM Thinkpad

 

In the end, it all comes down to what works best for one's particular needs...

If I were retired and still lived within the five boroughs of NYC, I'm certain I'd be counting a MBPr of some kind amongst my possessions. It is an interesting enough platform to own, but not in my current set of circumstances.

The ThinkPads of yesteryear have worked well enough for me, as have numerous Panasonics of various generations. Throw in a high-end HP or two for good measure.

Now, if I *really* needed a brand new laptop and had to purchase one within a month, I would be in deep trouble since just about everything and anything currently available has a major fault (for my usage pattern and needs) that I'd find very hard to swallow...

For ThinkPads it would be the new keyboard and trackpoint setup.

For Macs, the keyboard, and the lack of on-site warranty.

For Dell, the sorry excuse for trackpoint that even the most expensive ones amongst them carry.

For HP, the keyboard...

I'm sooooo happy that I'm not in the market right now...

 

Fujitsu

@Jarhead

Will your next laptop be a Thinkpad?

 

Very valid suggestion. I've liked their older machines, and the new ones seem well-built...

Thankfully, I'm in the phase of *getting rid of* extra laptops and not in the market for any new ones...

 

Well, I have one here at home, I don´t know which exact model, but it is one of their business lines, a 12" model with the first Core i generation (2010 time frame), and I have to say: This is pure garbage. Even compared to the ThinkPad Twist we also have here, which isn´t exactly a top-of-the-line ThinkPad, it feels cheap and plasticy, flexing parts all over the place, and the keyboard feels like a nightmare to type on...

I can´t comment on their recent model, but from what I read in some reviews, their newer keyboards with 1mm travel must be the worst on the market: Review Fujitsu LifeBook U772 Ultrabook - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

 

Do they have any mobile workstation-class machines? From quick glance at their site doesn't look they have anything that can compete with Lenovo's W-series.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. If Lenovo keeps going in the direction it's going in, I'd probably go for an older model instead (like a --20), assuming it meets my needs.

If not Lenovo, and assuming that Dell and HP's business-class laptops also tank as far as newer designs go, I'd probably just end up getting whatever cheap consumer-class laptop there is that interests me (so, FHD+) and spending most of my time on a desktop instead. If Microsoft continues with this Metro trend and their increasingly aggressive "ram our new ideas down your throat" style of product development, I'd probably go with Apple or a Linux laptop distributor (System76, etc.) or just get a no-OS Clevo.

Even if the future Thinkpads are just as durable as the current and past versions, if they hamper my productivity and overall happiness with certain features (keyboard, mouse, OS, etc.), then I won't bother ordering another one as a replacement for my X61t and W520.

CELSIUS H730 - Fujitsu CEMEA&I

CELSIUS H720 - Fujitsu CEMEA&I

 

That does look pretty attractive, but lack of trackpoint is a deal-breaker for me. Have to say with current Lenovo direction that's pretty much the only thing that holds me with ThinkPads, I am on the verge of trying out Dell or HP. And if neither of three work for me I'll bite the bullet and finally do what I wanted to do for a while - just buy from one of the Linux laptop OEMs.

 

The made in Japan Fujitsu models are the best ones. The ones made in China are junk.

My 5 year old T5010 was made in Japan.

 

Whoa, this thread really took off, I am pretty happy with the keyboard, and surprisingly the keyboard. The issues I had with Lenovo is that they were not shipping my orders and kept giving me trouble with orders.

I like that with Apple I can drop off my laptop locally, and get it back pretty quickly.

Until Lenovo can work their quality control/ customer service/ order system out, I will stick to this laptop.

The laptop did cost a lot though ... total of $2000 with warranty rMBP 13.3/8gb/512gb and warranty.

 

Too many people live too far away from their stores to make them matter (the in-store stuff, that is). The closest I have to one, for example, is that small Apple section in BestBuy, and you know how competent BestBuy is

 

move to a snobbier area, you will be able to find a apple store and starbucks on every corner

 

If Apple creates an Air with the Retina screen, I'll strongly consider buying one depending on the price. Love the Air form factor but the screen is pretty dated at this point.

 

I like that with Lenovo I can get my laptop repaired the next business day without leaving my house or workplace. Of course I got the NBD on-site warranty which most people seem not to know about.

 

I like that with ThinkPads I can get my laptop repaired within an hour myself. Of course I'm a frigging computer pack rat and nerd

 

If I have the parts I do that too but normally I don't have extra laptop parts lying around (besides RAM and SSD).

 

You should see my basement...and that's *after* the cleanup a couple of months ago...

 

Apple Kremlinology on the Internets is the next Air refresh will be a one size, 12" model, probably retina. Now, if they were to make it Yoga-like with a touch screen and duel boot to iOS that would be very attractive.

 

You forgot the active digitizer...

 

At the price they'd likely charge for something like this it ought to come with a reach-around too...