Going back to Apple

I started a thread a while ago (which is now closed) that got over 100 replies... and it was about how Thinkpad and Mac users were so loyal to the their brands and a lot of Mac users had think pads and vice versa

http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/565354-thinkpad-users-mac-users-11.html

Recently I have decided to leave Lenovo and go back to Macs. The quality of their newer products have really gone down, and I have had so many problems with their products. I just wanted to know if anyone else feels this way or it is just me??

 

I feel the quality of Thinkpads has declined, but still not enough for me to leave the Dark Side. Things stopping me from joining the fruity cult include price, lack of hardware configuration options and a continuing hatred of Apple software. Yes, I could run Windows in Bootcamp, but that's not a proper solution IMO.

 

Linux support on Macs has been lacking the last few generations, so I don't expect to move over to Apple anytime soon.

 

Keyboard and touchpad shenanigans aside (though admittedly a big deal for some people) I don't really see an issue... I got to handle a t440s recently and the build quality felt just as good as if not better than say a T400. That being said, if Apple would make my retina MBA 11, I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

 

Knowing what I know now, I would've bought a 13" Retina MacBook Pro. This is my first time purchasing a Lenovo and I was thoroughly unimpressed by shipping issues and poor customer service on Lenovo's part. The Thinkpad is a good machine but I never got that 'wow' factor, perhaps my expectations were too high. Now, if only Apple had better Linux support...

I've been playing around with a new MacBook Air and the difference in keyboards isn't as drastic as I thought it would be. I can type comfortably for a long time on either machine, although my hand starts to hurt if I use the track point of long periods.

 

I went to Acer & Dell in the middle to try and buy a fancy (Acer S7) and cheaper (XPS 13) laptop and see if maybe I was over paying, and didn't like the experience.

This MBPr is awesome so far... the screen is great, the software you are probably right about, and the upgrades are a rip off.

But a few of the laptops i ordered on the lenovo site (outlet and lenovo direct) didn't ship and got canceled, and the customer service could not explain why. I have been trying to get an X1 Carbon, but the value vs price hasn't been there... and I just needed something reliable ... Macs can be serviced locally ... and apple care is amazon compared to lenovo service in my experience

I was a huge fan of the X series, bur the laptop remain heavier, less optioned, and generally behind the curve, in the past Apple products were updated later than PC with new processors and technologies, now they are getting there pretty quickly (charging a premium for )

The last time I spent close to 2000 or more on a laptop was 7 years ago, but this thing was expensive, hopefully it will be reliable.

 

Well by the time you configure your lenovo accordingly, you're looking at the price for a basic macbook most of the time, there is really no point in buying a "TP" anymore when they are far from it, they are no different from apple now, only a matter time before they make everything a closed unit and soldered to achieve thinness on a "business" oriented laptop which is laughable. Not to mention, the materials they use + thinness don't really all go together so well when you want to consider build quality of a unit that is put together in pieces. There is no other brand for me to look at, dell really never got their **** together to compete with the T series for instance, elitebooks took the same path nearly and made everything into an ultrabook only with sub par screens. ASUS never really had a "business" line. Also the durability of Panasonic is a bit excessive for my use. I don't mind change in a thinkpad, but the changes they made for the sacrifices they suffered was not justified or worth anything to TP or even benefited it. You will have those people oh my TP is just good as T60, blah blah, i guarantee those people didn't really use their laptop like a business oriented person would, more than likely sat as a desk it's entire life without using any the features that make a TP a TP. These so called upgrades for them was just a realization of what they could have got earlier in a consumer laptop with the TP branding on it making them think it's some sort of new thing. I also probably won't buy a new TP ever again, i doubt at this point they will be changing back to what it used to be anytime soon. On the bright side, things i like about the new lenovo is the Y series, really surpassed my expectations when it comes to price and power.

 

I returned my T440p, but moving to Apple is something I can't do. I've used OS X extensively, but never was able to acclimate to its quirks, such as the Delete button NOT deleting a file (gotta do CMD + Delete), merging a folder with the same name as another overwriting the files inside instead of combining them, and cursor movement feeling very floaty and imprecise.

Price, yes. Apple's base 15" laptop is two grand, which is insane even with a Retina display.

The one thing it's hard to beat Apple at is hardware build quality. Strangely enough, that's also the reason I never kept Apple's aluminum notebooks; I was paranoid about ruining the beautiful engineering with skin oil stains or by chipping the case. Not a worry one should have when dealing with a portable computing device that needs to be used. And even more strangely, everyone is trying to copy Apple's hardware, so...mind blown.

Dell is out for me because of their now laughably awful configuration options and site, and I've never met an HP laptop that didn't have a mushy keyboard or wifi issues. I really should have gone with my second thoughts once I found out Lenovo was not offering the battery slice for their new T-series, but nooooooo.

 

Had (and still have) the first unibody Macbook. It's been a great machine. I would've gone with a new MBPr 13, but I work in Windows 90% of the time. I would need the 512gb option run boot camp, add the upgrade to 16gb of RAM, and the cost is $2000. Add tax and AppleCare, it's closer to $2400. The T440s is my first Lenovo, and by putting in another 8gb of RAM and a 250gb SSD myself, I'm out the door at around $1500 with 3-yr depot.

But the LG screen on the T440s is a deal breaker. I can't believe Lenovo is not ashamed to ship something so terrible. I can't get the screen to appear with uniform brightness at any angle. And if it's tilted a little bit away, the entire screen is unreadable. Even my fiancee's $400 acer from 4 years ago has better viewing angles. I'm still trying to get it replaced with the AUO, but if I can't do that, it'll be returned. Lenovo's sales service is atrocious. I had to place 3 orders to get mine right. The shipping delays were also frustrating, and I've yet to receive the promised 5% discount for not getting my machine before the holidays. Tech support has been ok so far, even though I couldn't get them to promise an AUO replacement. I've also been working with a local authorized service provider, and they seem very nice.

The keyboard on the T440s is great, but I like the Macbook keyboard nearly as well. Trackpads are comparable, with the Macbook being slightly better. I haven't used the trackpoint much, but it's nice to have the option. Build quality seems pretty good, although I don't know what older ThinkPads were like. I took off the back to add RAM, and the innards seem quite well put together. The materials also seem to be durable, and I like that it's not freezing when you first put it on your lap when wearing shorts. I miss some of the little niceties that the Macbook has though. I don't like that the T440s has no external charge indicator at all. And the magnetic power connector on the Macbook is just light years better. I do like having the fingerprint sensor on the T440s. It's probably my favorite feature so far.

All in all, if I knew in November what I know now, I would've gone with a MBPr. The amount of time I've spent and continue to spend just to get a usable computer is ludicrous, and worth far more than the price difference between the machines. But at this point I'm far enough in that I'll try to see it through. If I can get a decent screen, I do think I'll be happy with the T440s in the end.

 

if you configure a T540p with the same specs quadcore/3k display/730m as the macbook 15" even if you add the ram + ssd yourself, get a weaker graphics card, worse battery life, touchpad is opinionated but worse in my opinion as well, you are looking at $1600 without tax, now i can get a macbook pro retina display 15" for 1800 with my student discount direct from my university, no waiting 3 weeks just to get a message in my email saying the laptop has shipped...no waiting to get it and make sure there are no issues out of the box so I can have it resolved in a couple of weeks, later and finally get a working laptop after i spent 1600+ dollars on something that should have been damn near perfect out of the box. you can see why at this point it becomes an issue for me when comparing alternatives when looking at the price you pay, not to mention the higher resale value, not saying all macs are going to be perfect out of the box, but i won't have to wait a month to get my hands on a new mac if there is a problem when i purchase one, just go to the store the next day and it is settled.

 

I'm reaching the same crossroad, which is going to be a nightmare for me when my usage exceeds the capabilities of my current computer.

I've tried out too many Windows laptops this year because I was too unsatisfied with the MBP I have (more on that later). M4800 had no Optimus, ZBook 15 was overall not impressive, T440p had disappointing flex on body panels and especially lid, and those are just the computers I bought. The T540p has too bad of a GPU for that size, W540 never got here and throttles, XPS 15/M3800 has poor CPU choices, E6540 throttles, etc.

Before I was given this Mac I hadn't used OSX since my 2006 MBP which was a disaster, but I gave the new one a serious try. Sure the hardware is grossly overpriced, but it feels convincing and hasn't failed yet. Just the keyboard travel is horrible and my hands feel cramped vertically, and they hurt after a while. But OS X is the biggest problem, it's a nightmare. It eats your exFAT drives alive, corrupting them quickly. Kernel panics are a thing of the past, cause full system freezes with no logs are what's going on now every 5 hours. Also, software you take for granted like WinRAR is not there, finder is slow, scrolling is very laggy, Mission Control is still a mess if you have over 8 windows, cross platform software like Acrobat Pro is generally better on Windows, etc. I hope some windows manufacturer gets their stuff together.

 

This is a scary thread to see after ordering a 1500$ Thinkpad Yoga.

Crossing my fingers.

 

You should try the T440p... it manages to be chunky and flexy at the same time. I'm very disappointed that lenovo is apparently now reserving decent build quality for a select few models.

 

I fail to see how the build quality in the current Thinkpads has gone down. If any of you could point me to some data, that'd be nice. Though last time I checked, the X/T/W series still has the mag-alloy internal roll cage and similar ABS plastic as earlier models. The only major difference between the older and newer Thinkpads (aside from the obvious, like newer CPUs and whatnot) is the newer keyboard and mouse layouts, which I agree with most TP users in that they look horrible and are certainly not as functional as the older layouts.

Personally, moving from Thinkpads to Apple is akin to trading in your black car with a silver car with all the metal frame replaced with wood (or something weak like that). They both look sort-of similar now, though the build quality of the MBP/rMBP is severely lacking when compared to business-class laptops like the Thinkpad/Elitebook/ZBook/Latitude/Precision. The other details (OS, programs, etc.) is separate from the hardware discussion in my opinion...

I'm getting pretty annoyed with Lenovo's recent products as well, though my next notebook would probably be some sort of Elitebook and not some yuppie Apple notebook.

 

Here's a different perspective. I SOLD my Retina MacBook Pro 13" and bought the T440s. Really like the T440s. I do of course have the great non touch FHD screen.

OSX sucks!

 

I have a T440p and T420 sitting on a desk next to each other. The bases are similarly solid. The Lids are worlds apart, with the T440p's flexing and bending like paper in the wind and flopping shut like a dead fish while the T420's is only slightly flexy and locks firmly closed. Having seen my T440p taken apart by a tech for some repairs recently, I was not impressed by the internal structure at all. The lid, in particular, is a joke... absolutely no bracing or reinforcement of any sort on the underside. I assume the T440s has a stiffer lid.

The plastic of the T440 series is certainly still ABS of some sort, but I'll be interested to see how it wears over time compared to the slightly coarser, black plastic of the old series.

 

Hmm... didn't know that the T440p was lacking the alloy reinforcement in the lid. That's certainly disappointing.

 

Which the T420 also doesn´t have - as any ThinkPad T-Series after the T400s. The T420 has a Carbon Fiber lid, like the T440p as well.

This user-review however says that the lid is ok: "The cover is surprisingly resistant to twisting despite your low thickness of only 6.5 mm. Even in the middle of the slightly curved display cover can only with great pressure a visible change on the screen cause." However, having not handled the T440p personally yet, I can´t really comment on that...

Only the T440p has "pure-plastic". T440s (and T440 should also, but I am not entirly sure) has a special rubber-material on the palmrest which should prevent any wear. So far, it is resisting any wear pretty good...

 

So in saying this, you're saying that my T440p will most likely wear down in the palm rest areas while the T440s won't? That's disappointing.

 

Well, as I said before, I have not handled the T440p, and there are also no long time experinces with the T440p yet anywhere. But I know it is not the same palmrest treatment.

It should wear down like all other ThinkPads without a rubber palmrest (most of the former T models for example) in the palmrest area. We will see over time...

 

On paper the T440s is exactly what I'm looking for and the "gorgeous" non-touch FHD is the primary reason I'd choose it. But here's the rub -- I can't order it and know precisely what I'm going to get and when I'm going to get it. Is Lenovo going to stick me with a crap LG screen? If so, do I live with it or do I endure the haggle/time/effort/dislocation to get it replaced? How many production/shipping delays before I receive it to see if I won the screen lottery? Say what you will about Apple, at least you know exactly what you're going to get and can have it almost immediately.

 

I thought the T440p has a GFRP lid, not carbon reinforced. It certainly doesn't look or feel like it's carbon fiber reinforced. I guess it's twist-resistance is subjective. I would not call it particularly stiff compared to previous Thinkpads and I have so little confidence in its strength that I will be more careful with it. Even just adjusting the angle of the lid causes significant display blooming.

 

I'm not sure what kind of wear you're talking about. I had bunch of T models over the years, with all of them seeing heavy daily usage, and none of them have any noticeable wear in the palmrest area, even though the keys on some of the keyboard are worn down to the point of being shiny smooth and with no labels.

 

The palmrest itself was a hit or miss in my experience, but the touchpad from T60 series on used to wear out pretty fast, and with *10/20 generation came to the point of being ridiculously wear-prone.

On topic...

While Macs are an attractive offering in their own right, I can't see myself jumping ship in that direction for two reasons:

a) Some of the software I use will not run under OSX under any stretch of imagination, and Boot Camp is not a viable replacement in my usage scenario

b) Living in an one-horse-town without an option of NBD on-site warranty that I can get from Lenovo, Dell or HP is simply not an option, nor will it ever become one.

Keyboard would also require a major adjustment on my part...and I'm not sure I'm there just yet.

 

The MacBook Pro vs ThinkPad debate is always interesting. Both companies do a lot of things very well and it comes down to some small(ish) detail that depends on personal preference.

Price isn't a huge differentiator these days. A similarly specced T440s would cost the same as an rMBP 13" with the rMBP actually being ahead because it offers a 16gb ram option and has better integrated graphics. I personally went with the 15" rMBP because:

a) Lenovo doesn't offer anything with the power of the 15" rMBP in similar weight. The T440p is flimsier, heavier, and lower res. It does have dock support and a trackpoint though.

b) Apple gets a lot of the smaller details right. I have close to 2 apple stores so I can get issues looked at right away. I ordered a custom built rMBP with express shipping and it was delivered to me in 2 days (apparently apple keeps common configs stocked in some nearby warehouse). Apple batteries have historically (for me) lasted longer with very little wear. Plus they also guarantee 1000 cycles with 80% capacity which lenovo does not. Screen scaling is excellent on OS X. Finally, while there is a screen lottery on the rMBP as well (LG vs Samsung), the difference is not as drastic as the AUO/LG difference on the T440s.

I really wish Lenovo would fix some of the smaller details. Have better customer support for their premium lines. This includes a more streamlined ordering/shipping process. Get the order to the customer within a week. And stop using shoddy components (for e.g. the LG with the spotlight effect is ridiculous. Also, batteries shouldn't start showing 5-10% wear within a few months).

 

Apple products would be great if you took 50% off their price tag and shipped them with windows. Seeing as that is not going to happen, I'm not going to move to apple. I do think thinkpad quality has been degrading as the years progress, but the X220 Tablet and T420 we have work perfectly fine and are really quite speedy with SSDs, and should easily last another 2-3 years. If you're not satisfied with the market has to offer, you can always look at a used laptop to beef up.

 

That used to be true, but far less so now. As @ammarr pointed out, the apple competitors from WinPC makers have become as expensive as Macbooks. With similar specs the T440s, for example, is comparable price-wise to the 13" rMBP while the Dell XPS15/M3800 is comparable price-wise to higher-end 15" rMBP models. Granted, WinPC makers generally offer discounts while Apple does not. Without a discount, however, MBPs offer a better price proposition in terms of build, fit and finish IMO. Their downside is OS-X, limited configurations and the inability to easily upgrade components.

This sums up my main gripes with Lenovo. I started buying T-series Thinkpads years ago precisely because they were premium products and they felt like premium products. I no longer feel that's the case. Unfortunately my search for a well-built quad-core computer with dual-drive capability and weighing as close to 4lb as possible for under $1500 turned up nothing other than a T440p, but I really hope more options appear before I next upgrade (for the record, I almost went with an XPS15).

 

it's sad that i have to get a used product that is several years old of the same manufacture to get an upgrade compared to what they are selling now, really tempted to buy a used x220, slap in an IPS lcd and SSD, but can not find a reliable reseller, plus i don't know how used of a product i am going to get and how long it will last.

 

Macbooks do still have a bit of a premium, especially if you buy a PC laptop and do some upgrading yourself. But it's nowhere near twice as expensive as a comparable PC laptop. For example, my T440s, with 4gb RAM, 500gb spinning HD, FHD screen and the i7-4600u, came to $1170 or so before tax, but that's with the lowest, post-black-friday, b&n gold discount they offered. At other times the price on the same config was as high as $1300 or more. The base MBPr 13 with 128gb SSD, which is faster if you can live with so little space, is $1299, but was as low as $1099 at bestbuy during the holidays. If the MBPr had user upgradeable RAM and HD, I would've gone for it.

 

Lenovo has been copying too many things from Apple so of course ThinkPads aren't as good as they used to be.
It looks like Apple was only able to compete with the ThinkPad line after Lenovo took over.

If IBM were still making ThinkPads , we'd buy our $3000 ThinkPads and celebrate.

 

I am probably a unusual user, I want either a light and portable one with a stylus, or a workhorse that does not overheat, so no macbook.

 

I'd buy a Mac laptop to use as a toy and that's about it.
Shiny toys are nice

 

I'll be dead before i buy a Mac.
1. Overpriced
2. Apple keyboad = one of the worst i've used
3. OS X is hit or miss in my books, i prefer the customization of Linux or the reliability of Windows, both of which best used on a PC.
4. Poor gaming performance (well, for the price)
5. DO I HAVE TO BUY ANOTHER ADAPTER???
6. Upgrades? NOPE.
7. Macs are tacky and ugly in my books. Not a fan of their looks.
8. Apple's build quality is hit/miss in my books. Had 3 "earpods" crap out on me in the last 2 years.

This said, while i do enjoy both Lenovo laptops that i currently use (L420 and Y410p), i don't mind going back to Dell or buying from another brand. As for their "new direction", i really don't care if Lenovo decides to keep the IBM legacy or not. As long as someone makes a laptop that can fit my needs within a reasonable price and with a decent level of quality, i will buy it.

Change is not always bad. I prefer Lenovo's chiclet keyboard than it's old one, even after thinking i would hate the former before i made my purchase.

 

The sad thing is that you are probably going to hear an essay from an Apple fanboy explaining that you are wrong in every way.

Of course the Apple fanboy would be wrong for the most part (some things are subjective).

 

I don't see them as tacky. Just very, very cliche. Especially with college students, "artists", and hipster types (back when they weren't as common).

 

The ThinkPad warranty is amazing.

 

there are some things wrong with his statements, but i am not going to waste my time pointing them out, i am by no means an apple fanboy, but facts are facts and most of those points are unsupported opinions or rather inconsiderable reasons apart from the upgrades

 

1. Yes
2. Debatable
3. Debatable
4. Yes
5.Yes
6. Mostly true
7. Subjective
8. Debatable

Most people who buy Mac laptop are not people who have high standards so there is a perception issue there.

 

Fixed it for you...

 

They still are much better than Apple. If I go to an Apple store , I get treated like an idiot.

 

Well, most of Jobine's points are still valid. The rMBPs and the Mac Pros have a very healthy profit, whereas perhaps the MBA and iMAc were (last time I checked) somewhat comparable in price to their Wintel counterparts. The only counter-argument I've ever seen about Apple not being overpriced is in reference to their aftersales support, though for that sort of money, you'd get better support from a proper business laptop, especially with the Mac Pro.

Their keyboards by far as trash imo. Flat keys, island-style, shallow. The only island-style keyboard I've ever "enjoyed" are the current Lenovo ones, but even then they're not as good as the keyboard on my X61t or W520. The keyboards on the older, traditional-style Apple computers were fairly decent.

With the current trend with Apple, the lack of (aftermarket) upgrade options is a very real concern.

 

over priced, well already went over that a under configured T540p with non-factory upgrades (do them yourself) falls short $200 of a base line macbook retina 15" with a better video card + better battery life and build quality is definitely better, but the whole price difference thing is no longer a reality, now if you do the upgrades like factory like macbook does, price is spot on next to the T540p to be fair

i can agree that OSx is awful

 

I guess I get better discounts than what you (or most people) get.

I do keep track of the market so I guess the upgrade prices are lower for me as well.

 

i can get a discount for the macbook pro as well, but i am not going to consider that because that does not encompass everyone to be fair, and i am already being unfair to the macbook because of the non-factory upgrades, not to mention lenovo's prices differ from country to country, not saying they don't for apple, but this is just based on US prices, i would have to look more in depth to see the difference between other countries

 

The T540p has lower build quality than the rMBP? I'm pretty suspicious of such a claim...

Anyway, calling up Lenovo (or Dell, HP, etc.) and haggling with them over the phone should help you net a bigger discount than $200. Hell, I was able to get ~25% (~$500) off my W520 doing that, and I'm not even a very good haggler.

 

i know it's a damn shame when lenovo is paying the same price for the same workers and they can't get that right, must be a design flaw of some sort

 

I've seen people use 20% off coupons and then haggle on the phone afterwards to get around 40% off total. I have yet to see someone do that with a Mac.

 

Of course it still meets some MIL-SPECs.

 

okay bring something irrelevant to the actual debate, like i said, i too can get discounts, not much, $100 dollars off + 3 year apple warranty because of my university, but that is better than nothing, not to mention, the resell value of macbooks is far better than the T series, X series is alright, W series is up there with apple

 

Wow, 40%? Damn... best I've ever seen for a business-class laptop was 28% with Elitebooks a few years ago.

@jook33: Anyway, I've love to see some sort of video showing the rMBP go through MILSPEC testing or the like . Perhaps you're mistaking "fit and finish" with "build quality"? Apple's pretty decent in fit and finish, though I wouldn't trust it to take a hard-hitting fall or the like.

$100 off and three years of depot warranty isn't all that much of a discount...