Feast your eyes on the new leaked images of T410s

Lenovo knows that regardless of the screen quality, people will still buy their Thinkpads in droves as there are scores of people out there (and here) that swear by Thinkpads and nothing else, like it's the best thing since sliced bread. So I can assure you that they don't care as long as sales are still growing. It just won't factor into their strategic decision making because there's no numbers to correlate sales and screen quality.

Web reviews are also not very critical of Thinkpad screens, so again, this gives them no reason to change as the media has not been vocal about it.

 

Ok, how about this one?

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/11/17/lenovo.w701.to.sport.quad.core.i7.from.intel/

 

Lacking the latch release mechanism on the T410 is just a total turnoff.
I just hope the W500 to be available in 2010 and 2011 to get mine in time. I definitely like the T61/T400 style touch button, if those are the same as used in the SL410/SL510 then I think I will dislike the new T series very much.

 

i hope they aren't getting rid of the latch release mechanism. having it makes sense

 

You are atypical and not making the mass buying decisions.

I would like nicer screens. I use a 24inch IPS panel at home. I am merely stating how the mindset of corporate IT is. And you think people use high quality personal screens and headsets for voice and video communication? The headsets I am given are terrible and the screen quality doesn't really matter when the video source is terrible looking already.

You need to view this from a business perspective. The cost of supporting a screen selection is very high and hence there needs to be high enough demand for the higher quality options. So far lenovo's main customer base does not demand it.

And, yes, I am familiar with the consumerization of IT. The iphone is not up to par for corporate messaging/security/radio flexibility.

 

I would agree that is the case with T4xx/T5xx where screen quality isnt the most paramount concern, but for a premium product like the T400S or workstation machines like the W5xx they really ought to be offering more competitive screens.

 

Yes, and actually good quality screen is a must for workstation models.

 

1) On many T series models lenovo has like 3-4-5 screen choices. Yes they can make ONE premium choice. Yes. No more excuses please.
2) You're jumping all over the place. I just pointed out one device where corporations are buying what people want and now suddenly you change your angle. Further to that the sales of Apple Macbook pros in the premium category of laptops again underline that people DO pay for units with quality screens.

 

X200T, T400 HN offer decent screens for a premium. Thinkpads were never known for the high quality screens.

 

Look I am not trying to convince you that there is not some demand for higher quality screens. I am pointing out the rational from lenovo's stand point regarding its large customer bases.

Lenovo itself has discussed the difficulties of providing high quality PVA or IPS screens to the enthusiast market. It would be great if they could build a profitable model doing it. I am all for that.

And jumping all over the place...? I figured a space between the paragraphs would be sufficient to comment about your iphone point. Also the Mac book pro market is hardly the same demographic as a Thinkpad. Just because employees want it from their own personal consumerism doesn't mean their company wants it.

 

Again, you are deviating from the point. I am not talking about "enthusiast" market. I am not talking about IPS or PVA. I am not talking about "high nit", as that isnt necessarily quality. Quality screens have high contrast, good viewing angles and good colour representation.

What I am talking about is that within even the framework of the industry-standard TN screens, Lenovo generally scrapes the bottom of the panel and serves that to its customers. That is my issue.

Sony seems to find high quality TN screens, Apple seems to find them. Even Acer provides a better screen on the $549 Acer Timeline 1810TZ than Lenovo does on the T400 and T500 that cost far more.

This is the fundamental issue. Why cant they simply offer the option of one legit high quality screen among the many screen options that they give for each model. At least for the T series.

 

The only good panels Lenovo sells are the ones for the X200T and the W700/ds, which are among the best in the market for their respective notebook sizes. The W700/ds uses the same screen as the Apple MBP17. The only ones better on that screen size is the Dell Precision M6400 and HP Elitebook 8730w.

 

Why do you have to keep insisting I am "deviating" from your point. I am simply discussing the issue as a whole perhaps outside of your specific view or concern with it. Sorry for not staying so specific just to you.

Fine you don't need PVA or IPS. Lenovo use to offer IPS and has a PVA tablet screen so that's why I mention it. And those panel techs are generally considered to be high quality...

Apparently you just want good TN screens (I misunderstood your specifics...sorry). Unfortunately it just doesn't seem like it is worth it to Lenovo. You can most certainly expect lenovo to continually examine the prospects of bringing additional value to their thinkpad line with better screens. It is a business after-all. Apparently there is not justification for such panel offerings. Perhaps look into doing an after market upgrade if you want to tinker.

Or check other OEM's offerings.

 

jaredy, skagen, please, do not fight on this matter. I think we all agree that Lenovo is not known for their top-quality screens :wink:

The bottom line seems to be, that a better PVA or IPS screen would be a better offering, and I agree, but Lenovo, in order to be competitive as the brand, had to cut down prices, and BQ was not going to be given away, so TN screens were chosen.

 

Adding a better screen option doesn't mean Lenovo needs to abandon the lower cost offerings. Like was previously stated, up to 3 or more screen options are already available for certain models. So why can't one of them be something amazing like an IPS or high-quality TN? I understand it will cost more for Lenovo, but isn't the answer to just pass the cost down to the consumer? I wouldn't think twice about adding another $200 to my laptop configuration if it meant that I could have a much better screen. And judging from the popularity of better offerings from Apple, Dell, HP, etc, I don't think I am the only one!

 

I think size selection and the quality of the screen itself are very different things that I think some people are not taking into consideration. Lenovo definitely has offered a multitude of screen sizes in the past. Further, they have offered screens to bank on lower power consumption, or in adverse lighting situation (high nit). Things companies want out of Lenovo's flagship and also mainline Thinkpad (business-class) laptops.

I'm not sure how many of you use the T400s or the T4/500 series with a docking station with an external monitor. If you do not, you aren't the targeted market Lenovo is shooting for. LOTS of companies do this and those models fit them perfect. I think Lenovo's justification for these two classes are for those who use it mainly at a desk with a seperate monitor, yet want portability and battery life (and also not cost a considerable amount).

When I think about the W700/X200, I think about a user who would fit in a category that rarely docked, or even owned one. Since they would be using their already gigantic LCD screen on the W700 (or all the time because they are always portable, hence the X200 with a small screen and packing size/weight), a higher quality screen would be justified in these models.

This is a similiar argument along the lines, of "why does my discrete gaming graphics suck so much in my business T400/T500?" I don't know many people who install and play 3D games at work that also don't develop or review them. People who post at NBR seem to be mostly consumers, and some of you consumer customers complain about a laptop class suited for business users (who wouldn't post here, and instead be talking directly to Lenovo anyway).

 

How do we make the money to buy $1,000-$2,000 laptops? Sitting on the couch. Actually what you call "consumers" are people who own their own business or work for large companies.

Which as i stated above Apple knows and is getting the benefit of with their massive sales of the iphone - supposedly a "consumer" device - for corporate use.

Actually, at the company I work at, they used Thinkpads for some time before dumping them for Dell. And no, no one had a docking station. We used them as laptops. You'll find that many companies with mobile workers and/or flexible setups dont bother with docking stations. Not to mention, they are an added and unnecessary cost.

The two other companies I have worked at - no, no docking stations either.

I did have my own business for some time and at that time, no a docking station was not on the radar. That would have been money wasted. I did however buy the best quality laptop I could get my hands on, because that was my main tool. And it had to have a good screen because that is one thing you cant upgrade later. So that time it was Fujitsu S series I went with. The Lenovos at that time were blindness-inducing - seriously.

Also this T series is nominally called a "business" line, but actually the buyer profile is extremely wide, including :
- government
- large enterprise
- SOHO (small business and consumers)
- even gamers (I mean do you think it is the Dept of Commerce that wants the 3D gaming oriented discrete gaming cards that Lenovo puts in these T-series? It's actually the W series cards that are CAD-focused, not the T.)

And the ocean of digital discount coupon codes for T series that Lenovo spreads all over the internet are at not aimed at purchasing executives from financial corporations, obviously.

So learly it is much more appropriate to call these T-series notebooks Lenovo's "premium" line, rather than "enterprise". But making a premium claim requires coming through on all dimensions - not just some.

But hey, what do I know, after all I am just a "consumer".

PS. Some of you should take a look at a recent study that suggests Apple is getting as much 90% of sales of laptops in the price points over $1,000. Clearly people who are looking for quality laptops DO value a top quality screen. And they are willing to pay for it.

So whatever Lenovo is doing for this new T4xxxs unit, they really need to be addressing the reasons why their current units are NOT competitive for the buyers in this price point, (T401 sells for $1600 and up ie competing Apple's sweet spot). Another excellent unit with a middling screen is really not going to boost their sales - period. Neither will more USB slots, esata or any of the geek stuff.

They already have the best in class input device - the Lenovo keybaord. They have improved the touchpad which is a key navigation device - bravo. Now they better get their butts in gear and take care of the primary visual interface - the screen. Because that is part of what is hurting them.

 

@skagen: i agree to the screen issue. but heres another thought. im not going to start a useless debate for or against apple. but since you brought it up that apple has 90% shares in notebooks > 1000 USD: apple uses a unique strategy to adhere to hedonistic aspects of the market. basically that means, they create desire for their products by mainly two things:
- their products are unequal to others, making them more desirable (look at the available ports on the apple notebooks and other stuff that differs - i think it's their intention to be different, before anything else)
- their products are "sexy", form over fuction

in order to make the thinkpads more desireable, i think the designers should do sth similar. if the thinkpads just had screens better than the competitors and rock solid casings (they have, but flimsy and flexing parts are just so unsexy that it destroys the experience), they could exploit their niche.

so that's the thing. the thinkpad as it is, is currently not exploiting its niche. and i think thats what separates apple from the rest, theyre taking risks to go different while the rest ist going the safe route.

 

That's not true, if it were true you would cite it.

 

It wouldn't be a niche any longer, and if they did what you said they "should", they wouldn't be ThinkPads anymore, ThinkPads were built from day one as business portability work rigs, not for gaming, not for picture editing, not for looks, but business work, and i personally think they should carry on this tradition.

 

Not true!
When IBM was still making thinkpads and awhile after Lenovo took over, IPS Panel (Or FLexView as it was called) was the best screen the you can find on the market. And you could only find it on a Thinkpad.

 

Having a quality screen provides a lot more functionality than "just being pretty." And besides the additional cost, how would a better screen hamper business functionality in any way?

 

Well, from a manufacturing assembly perspective - there is a complexity cost to each additional "option" you provide.

Each additional option adds costs along the supply chain in forecasting, sourcing, tracking, shipping, inventory'ing each additional SKU.

Each SKU on the assembly line then increases manufacturing risk (think of it as the need to track each order and not put in the wrong screen). A laptop configuration is already a huge combinatorial explosion now - each additional variable level would add another multiplicand to that complexity transfer function.

Complexity costs then trickle down into service and warranty, stock keeping for end-of-production-lifecycle etc.

So, while we may want infinite options and may even be willing to pay for them - Lenovo might cut off their product offerings to whatever Cpk bandwidth they are comfortable running their process at. Even if they could make more revenue; they would lose more on the bottomline.

 

Perhaps true of existing apple customers.

 

and that's exatcly their niche... think about it.

 

Why on earth does a 'business rig' have to be mutually exclusive to quality screen? This was never the case until recently. I would say rather their niche was high quality, durable, portable somewhat bland machines for working. In fact, as others have stated, thinkpads have been known to have quite outstanding displays, whether IPS, or offering high resolution panels (which were rare at the time). Moreover, they have a long history of offering 'p' performance models which were spec'd as workstation type units with such high resolution displays and improved graphic accelerators.

 

I don't think you understand how commercial-scale manufacturing works. It might be easy to think "well if a better screen costs $300 more for Lenovo to buy, then just make it an option, charge customers $400 for it, and there you go."

It isn't that simple. There are tremendous additional costs for every new option on a mass-produced product other than just the cost of parts. R&D, Testing, Certification, Sourcing, Support, Documentation... the list goes on and on and on.

Unless Lenovo thinks there will be a significant market for this new option, they aren't going to invest in developing it to offer. And, although we here at NBR are a very passionate and vocal group that would gladly pay much more for a quality screen, we have to realize that we are an incredibly small fraction of Lenovo's market for Thinkpads. There are not nearly enough of us for Lenovo to consider such a move - the overwhelming majority of their customers are very happy with the current screen offerings and price points, so that's what Lenovo will continue to do. They serve their customers - and we, here at NBR, are not representative of a typical Thinkpad customer.

 

This has to be the case because the market for "business rigs" has changed. Lenovo's client-base for Thinkpads have experienced a massive shift where low cost is a primary driver of purchasing decisions. Brand loyalty is a thing of the past, and as long as a product is reasonably functional and reliable, low cost is the primary purchasing decision factor. Lenovo has to compete with Dell and HP - Lenovo's customers just don't value the stuff you mention any more. We, here at NBR Forums, are not the people Lenovo considers when they are examining the needs of their customers.

 

I think I understand more than you give me credit for. Of course the cost of an option reaches far beyond the price of the unit itself. But the impact of all those extra requirements can be boiled down to a dollar amount. I assure you that's how Lenovo makes their decisions on which products to offer. And by common sense, as long as they are reasonably accurate at predicting a conservative demand estimate, they can sell that option for some margin above cost.

Of course, it all depends on Lenovo being able to sell enough to reduce the price to a reasonable level. And I think you are vastly underestimating the market in this case. Lenovo's aren't solely marketed to businesses, and not all businesses use laptops for spreadsheets alone. Every laptop my family has purchased was chosen with the best screen option possible. Furthermore, the lab I work in only buys computers with quality screens. Unfortunately, that means the majority of people get Macs. Lenovo doesn't need to make the better screen an option on every model. But it should be available on at least a few, because the market certainly exists outside of financial companies and tax offices.

 

And that is why the X200 Tablet and the W700ds and I think the T400s have some of the best screens. Being an IPS on the X200 tablet, a full 8bit on the W700ds (IIRC) and a good TN on the T400s. And if I am not mistaken, the X301 had a good screen too.

 

I heard that X301 has very avg screens.

 

Well, that's where I think we fundamentally disagree and will continue to do so.

I think you vastly overestimate the population of consumers who would:
a) buy a thinkpad
AND
b) value a higher quality screen
AND
c) would actually pay hundreds of dollars more for that option when it comes to purchase time

I'm certainly in that category, but I just don't think the huge majority (or even a barely significant minority) of Lenovo's target market (bulk-order corporate customers) are going to fall in there.

 

Just for the record these listed in red are all wrong.
-x301 screen is middling.
- X200 is not IPS and it isnt world beating either.
- The T400s in particular have screens that did not manage to even reach 100:1 contrast ratio in external tests. Meanwhile 200:1 is where one would begin to consider a screen decent.

Maybe you think "high brightness" = good screen, but that is several hundred miles away from the truth.

This T4xxs series is mean to be a top of the line unit, but it will never suceed at this price point if it isnt carried through all the way including the screen.

Brand loyalty is certainly a thing of the past when you gut the quality of a product in a chase for low prices. Ask the airline industry.

Also ask Apple, because actually while the lemmings are racing to the bottom, Apple is able to command even more of a premium simply by marketing well built laptops with a good screen and touch pad. And focusing their branding on that instead of discounts and coupon. With that they have the leading market share in laptops sold above a thousand bucks. Its really that simple.

Really? They why are their discount codes prominently featured here. Hmmm....not matching reality

And as I said before, some of you claim Lenovo doesnt care about consumers for T series but that is exposed as untrued by the barrage of consumer discounts, sales and coupons that they promote constantly for these models. And I am not aware of any Fortune 500 or Govt purchasing departments that buy Lenovos in by the single unit using online coupons linked to Lenovo.com. If you do know of any please report them, as they are failing in their job duties.

Either that or this "business" claim is a sham.

 

I cant speak for HP because i'm not familiar with their offerings, but Dell offers the option for much better screens than Lenovo. Like I said, good screen + business machine aren't mutually exclusive. I have been a hardcore Thinkpad nut (600E, T41, T41p, T60p), and though I may not be lenovo's target demographic (which is arguable...see the w700, clearly there is a desire to keep that market), as a design professional, it's the screen that drove me to my current Dell.

 

T400s has good screens???!!! where did you buy yours? coz mine sure hell doesn't have a good screen

though that doesn't stop me from loving mine

 

"as I said before, some of you claim Lenovo doesnt care about consumers for T series but that is exposed as untrued by the barrage of consumer discounts, sales and coupons that they promote constantly for these models. And I am not aware of any Fortune 500 or Govt purchasing departments that buy Lenovos in by the single unit using online coupons linked to Lenovo.com. If you do know of any please report them, as they are failing in their job duties.

Either that or this "business" claim is a sham."-skagen

They are business, Canada Post uses ThinkPads, albeit not a business. The point is that they appeal mostly to professional users that are more tech savvy than the average laptop consumer. If they were "mostly" consumerist notebooks, they would be a totally different design because most consumers are not tech savvy, and go by looks in the first impression.

 

I never said that Lenovo ignores "consumers." But I did say that "consumers" are not the target market for Thinkpads, and I don't think the availability of coupons to "consumers" refutes that at all.

 

Stop supporting Lenovo ffs, from the time they bought IBM's division the quality is going downhill...

Those stupid excuses like "there is a shortage of good panels" etc is complete BS. Where did Apple find their panels? Steve Jobs farted and they appeared?

 

So has price... do you really expect them to produce tanks for current prices? Hell, even in some cases Lenovo is cheaper than Dell or HP and still beats them both in design and durability. Quality also needed to go downhill so that they could finally turn a proffit, which Lenovo did and for prices aren't doing too bad at designing ThinkPads, ijust hope they don't go all sleek and "sexy" consumerist look.

 

So these computers are stuffed with 3D gaming cards, marketed heavily to consumers, disounted heavily in consumer media, sold via most major online retialers like J&R and Amazon.....but they are still purely business computers? Oh right. Your bending-over-backwards level denial is actually just funny.

 

3D gaming cards?

No.

Marketed heavily to consumers?

I've never seen a Lenovo T-series advertisement in any kind of "consumer" publication or other medium.

Discounted heavily?

I have no idea how that means that Lenovo designs the Thinkpads for consumers rather than business.

Sold online?

Really? Selling something through an online retailer means they aren't business oriented?



Listen, we'll just have to disagree here. I think that it is pretty obvious to anyone who knows a bit about Lenovo's offerings and sales numbers that Thinkpads are designed and marketed for bulk-scale corporate clients. I don't think the fact that they invest a small amount of effort into trying to pick up the random consumer that might want to buy the product means much - of course they'd take this business - who wouldn't?

I say Lenovo designs the Thinkpad for businesses. You say Lenovo designs the Thinkpad for "consumers." I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. Apparently we are both amazed that the other party could honestly believe the crap they are spewing. I've said my piece, and I'm obviously not going to convince you. Whether or not you agree with me or continue to service your own reality really isn't of much consequence. End of story.

 

Where is this random notion that ThinkPads are now consumer notebooks coming from? Lot of hot air blowing in here to me, show me one Best-Buy that currently is displaying and selling ThinkPads.

 

And your bending over bacakwards to deny that businesses won't go for the best price for what you are getting, is just funny! If there is a business, or corporation, that isn't a term that means you can automatically assume they will completely disregard cost and value, and just get 3000 dollar mobile workstations for everybody. Lenovo has the average business user, as well as the former, whichis known as the W series.

 

I believe thinkpads are still business oriented machines--how many people do you know who have thinkpads who don't use them for work (whether their own or their businesses)? However that is my view coming from North America--while I was living in Germany, they actually did have thinkpads in major electronic retail outlets.

 

A GPU is NOT ONLY a 3D gaming card. Read some of OpenCL, DirectCompute, OpenGL and then rethink on it.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=436146

A GPU is more than capable of just gaming if you didnt know. And yes, they are used on the consumer market too, cause they can run games, but they can have multiple display, accelerate 3D softwares and 2D softwares, off-load the CPU on some GPGPU tasks (refer to the above) and are more future proof than the puny 4500MHD in that area, where the Intel IGP cannot perform the any GPGPU tasks.

So the fact that they have Radeon instead of FirePro inside is not because they are consumer oriented, but rather price-based. Look at the T500 and W500. Same laptop, same everything. Same GPU but different versions of it. Price on the W500 is higher. And the FireGL and FirePro are CAD/CAM/DCC and as a manufacturer you dont want to put that on every laptop you sell, it is not worth it, and redundant, considering that the Radeons (that you are diminishing) are more than capable.

Now please. Start replying with some respect please. This is a public forum, and people will not tolerate someone coming here and treating them bad because of a disagreement. Read the Forum Rules for further information.

 

On the X301 I wouldnt know. I am just guessing, as it is a flagship model on portability.
My apologies, the X200 tablet is a S-PVA like jonlumpkin's which is above a TN panel AFAIK.

And I invite you NOT to assume what I think. High Brightness is good, but there are other things to take into consideration of a display, such as if it is 6bit or 8bit, the contrast, the resolution, the backlighting, etc.

 

Actually I was quite surprised a few weeks ago when I walked into BB and found a ThinkPad for sale.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Lenovo+...lack/9569497.p?id=1218126040764&skuId=9569497

 

It is a SL ThinkPad, not a R, T, X or W. ^^

 

I will repeat again for those who are apparently unable to hold more than one concept in their heads at the same time.

Lenovo aims to sell Thinkpad T series to govt and businesses
Lenovo also targets consumers to sell this product to
Both sets of purchasers can find value in a good quality screen option

The fact that these three concepts held together are a subject of debate is hilarious.

 

You are exactly correct.