IC Graphite Thermal Pad Available for Test and Review

The 700 one was the "regular" PGS, mr fox tried that and got terrible results.
Apparently that 700 w/mk rating is for the X-Y plane (horizontal) only, so its useless.

The soft PGS seems to be in 20 w/mk or 28 w/mk or something. I dont know all of the charts.

 

Ok

Just a double check before I actually buy, this is the specific one that @Sentential tested on the alienware and got temps near LM?

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964


EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964

 

No, that's the one I bought and have right now, but only tested it on the r9 290X.


he apparently bought this one.

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0309ZLAK/P122009-ND/6575939
(
EYG-S0309ZLAK )

I honestly do not know the difference.

So someone tell me.
What is the difference between

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964

and

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0309ZLAK/P122009-ND/6575939 ??

Anyone?
@Mobius 1
@ajc9988
@Raidriar
@bloodhawk

 

https://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/products/thermal-solutions/graphite-sheet-pgs/pgs/soft-pgs
This is the product list from panasonic for soft PGS.
https://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/pgs2/soft-pgs

http://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/AYA0000/AYA0000C50.pdf

 

For one, size. Also, they do not clarify what the suffix is for.

These are marketed for use with power modules.

 

my brain is somewhat hurting right now

 

Any EYGS****ZL** is the soft PGS. All are 0.2mm in thickness. The first four numbers refer to the length and width of the sheet being bought. They do not say what the suffixes stand for, but likely pre-cut holes, potentially, for specific products. If it is for pre-cut holes, then you just need a large enough sheet to be able to use it without worrying of the holes for screws for mounting.

 

So this should be fine soft PGS then?

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964

There's also the 1818 one but that's 70usd a sheet ._.

 

Yes, that seems to be the one!

 

<shrug> I honestly have no idea, sorry for the delay been awful busy this weekend. I was using the CPUID "PowerMax" program and for those temps I ran both the video and cpu stress tests for 5 minutes. For the install I literally gave no ****s what so ever, I screwed down in a completely random order all the way down and slapped it together since it's going back to dell if it sucked who cares. It was 80F at the time of those screenshots

Photos attached of what I had and what it looked like. I promise I did nothing special

 

haha its hilarious to see all the confusion going back and forth here

keep up the investigative work guys, im sure there are lots of other lurkers like me reading whats going on in this thread

 

Once I get the unit I asked for I will make a video with a step by step to eliminate any confusion about what I'm doing and post results at the end.

 

Lurker here.. hahaha.. Just wanted to ask what stress test did you do? Also were you on high performance mode in power options in windows? On the screenshot I saw your min clock speed was below its min turbo boost speed... Sorry in advance if I missed something and my question is irrelevant.. LOL

 

I always set my performance mode to the highest level from the battery widget when plugged in. I will be honest I was more interested in setting up and validating the new 15r3 I recieved as an exchange from Dell so I used CPUID's Powermax utility for burn in testing. From my previous experience it is as effective as Prime95 and Furmark when the CPU and graphics test are used together.

As for the turbo boost I believe minimum clocks when on battery are 800mhz whereas if used under performance mode is I think 2.1ghz for a 7700HQ which is what is on the 13r3. I'd be happy to tests again but I have since wiped and reset the 13r3 unit for shipment back to dell and am on the Gsync 15r3 which also needs to be exchanged. Once I'm out of limbo I'll have a proper writeup and repad on it as soon as I get this sorted out with Dell.

As stated before just to eliminate any variable I'll go ahead and take a video post-disassembly showing the size of the pads cut and how I mount the heatsink as I know reading words on the internet aren't as clear as a video is. I'll also show uncut re-assembly so there's no question as to whether or not I'm fudging results and what they are for me in real time.

This way everyone can see what exactly I am doing differently from everyone so that if my results are as good as they were before they can be replicated for the lurkers here.

 

Hey guys, dont flame me here, but I've got some questions and ideas im trying to decide if they're even worth experimenting with.

So at this point we don't mind if our TIMs are electrically conductive, we just want maximum Z conductivity which is where layers of carbon/graphite/graphene that are laminated/bonded together fail the hardest despite their excellent heat/electrical conductivity properties in all planes as a pure material or in the XY planes when in laminate or bonded form.

Has anybody tried using ultra thin sheets of pure gold or silver as a TIM yet? (The only reason I mention gold at all is because it's soft enough at a thin-ness of ~0.1mm that it might actually stand a chance of filling voids the way we need it to (think gold leaf). I am not sure if silver would be soft enough even at that thickness, but I am surprised I have not seen any experimentation with it yet myself.)

By the numbers, silver is top of the charts as far as metals go, but I am unsure how it compares to these cutting edge carbon/graphite/graphene solutions being discussed lately, especially since they aren't "pure" forms that people often tout the numbers of.

In short, I am eyeing something like this 50mm x 50mm x 0.1mm pure silver sheet for USD $56.00, wondering if it would accomplish what you guys have been hoping these graphite solutions would.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/265527?lang=en&region=US

 

It's a thought but the melting point is too high I think to fill any voids.

Frankly this soft PGS material seems like a good compromise. I'm not really sure why some people are having such bad luck with it. Again as soon as I get my issues sorted with Dell I promise to upload a video showing exactly what I've done with the results so everyone on here can judge for themselves. I'm hoping to have this done by the end of the week.

If I had to guess my thought is either:

A) its shifting during installation because it is the same consistency of aluminium foil.

B) Not enough material as I'm using sheet sizes substantially larger than the die itself.

 

I don't intend to melt it or solder it, my thought is if we can get pure silver leaf/foil thin enough, it might be able to act like other foil TIMs that are soft enough at a thickness of 0.1mm or less to conform to any voids like we need it to, in addition to it being a single uniform piece of material rather than ultra thin layers that are bonded together or held in a substrate, which means it should maintain it's actuall material conductance values in the Z direction unlike the graphite-based varieties. On that note, you could even get silver powder and suspend it in your substrate of choice for experimentation if that's what you're into, lol.

I don't doubt your results or methods, nor the others in this thread, I'm just thinking of other ways to achieve the results we are all after.

I don't even need any of this really, it's just what I enjoy pondering and experimenting with to move high performance computing forward.

 

Aluminium has thermal conductivity of 200 W/mK and silver has a thermal conductivity of 400 W/mK. You might as well use tin foil.

 

Yes I am well aware of the raw theoretical numbers, but as has been proven many times before, there is far more to it all than the numbers alone.

How about you try actually contributing some analysis and discussion rather than just being annoying all the time?

As has been recently pointed out in this thread the graphite based solutions are touting 700-1000W/mK on their spec sheets but again, that is NOT the end of the story. In fact, in the Z direction it ends up being less than 30W/mK once all factors are considered and accounted for.

Every little bit counts when we are talking such small surface areas and thin interfaces.

 

FYI, @Mr. Fox didn't use the Soft PGS Version. He used the regular version. That isn't the one you and I have. If I manage to get enough strength to dismantle my PC I'll try a pad on the 2600K.

 

You mean like this old commercial product called Arctic Silver 5?

:vbgrin:

More seriously, solid sheets of metal usually won't be soft enough to conform at the microscopic gap levels we're generally talking about unless you do some extra work, like hammering or beating the gold/silver to the heatsink and die to force them together, which could work for the heatsink, but would probably have terrible consequences for the CPU die.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

 

I was thinking more along the pyrolitic/silicone/other new age based substrates for suspended silver powders, not so much greases or ceramics since they are already known insulators that dry out prematurely and don't conduct heat well in the first place. I am mostly trying to focus on the solid phase/format here above all else if possible since that's ultimately what this thread is all about. Solid format TIMs translate to no-mess, easy application, and (hopefully) re-usable... At least that is the hope.

Btw, I don't think I saw this particular PDF linked in this thread yet... Lots of good info in it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjADegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw3WMWJCvGYDYnmT5h7lIu_N

It states the Panasonic EYGS 182310 has a Z direction thermal conductivity of only 15W/mK.

And here is another interesting writeup from ~2013 about cubic boron arsenide (unsure what form that takes) matching or beating out diamond in terms of conductivity:

https://m.phys.org/news/2013-07-competitor-diamond-thermal-conductor.html

 

Metals, due to their molecular structure, have the same thermal conductivity in all directions. This is not true for graphite, which consists of sheets of carbon atoms stacked on top of each other (see the image below). It is much easier for carbon atoms to transmit vibrations (i.e. heat) in the xy plane because they are held together by strong bonds. In the z-direction however, the layers of carbon atoms are held together by much weaker forces than the covalent bonds which hold individual carbon atoms together in each layer. This means that it is far harder for vibrations (heat) to travel in the Z direction between carbon layers as pose to within the layers themselves. These reasons are why the thermal pads have such a high thermal conductivity in the xy plane compared to the vertical plane.


Thermal conductivity isn't the only factor that affects the thermal performance of TIMs. You also need to consider how well the TIM fills in the microscopic air gaps between the heat sink and die surface. Since silver sheets will not be able to deform and fill in the air gaps like thermal paste or even a compressible graphite pad, it is likely to perform very poorly. The higher thermal conductivity of silver is unlikely to make much of a difference vs aluminium foil because of this. Of course, this is all theoretical and empirical, real world evidence wins every time. Why don't you test your theory with cheap aluminium foil before spending $50 on something that will probably not work?

 

This article may be worth a read for all of you people dreaming about better cooling: https://www.bit-tech.net/news/tech/cooling/direct-to-silicon-liquid-cooling/1/

 

I am aware the method of heat transfer are two completely different mechanisms in metals vs diamond/carbon based crystalline structures. Thank you for the share, it will likely help others out who may not understand the various mechanisms of heat transfer.

I would try aluminum and copper leaf or foils for science, but it definitely wouldn't be store-bought food foil if that was what you were getting at, lol.

I understand the likelihood of foils to fill gaps is not much but old TIMs did in fact used to be foil based in some cases, just probably not silver and I am unsure as to their thicknesses. Then again, the rest of the cooling solutions of those times was often basic at best and primitive at worst. We are in a much better position now to re-visit some of these older concepts and possibly see better results than was thought possible previously.

It appears that "leaf" metals are 0.0002 - 0.0003 mm thick, which is considerably thinner than 0.1mm TIMs. Hell, at that point I would be willing to try whetting solder to a pure leaf finished CPU/Heatsink just for funsies.

I don't expect this solution to be a mass production solution, which is what almost all other TIMs are required to be. The fact that we are willing to put the time/effort/money into testing these novel ideas and methods may one day pay off for dedicated end users, but I don't expect any big organization to endorse it or adopt it really.

 

Which is the primary way I see 3d chips using TMV (Through media via; although they sometimes switch out media for silicon or whatever medium is used) as viable.

 

That sounds great, I wonder what kind of volumes they are pushing and what fluid type. I would guess alcohol or mineral oil for safety of the system? Due to the size of the channels it seems only alcohols or very thin viscosity fluids would work though.

My only concern with that method is that any moving fluid is going to cause erosion and material loss, which at micron thicknesses of separation and on the chip itself could prove fatal to the system at some point. I wonder what kind of longevity results they are seeing.

 

They are pushing water. In fact, they have one form where the water phase changes to steam and has to condense afterwords.

 

Kinda makes me want to experiment with Butane, lol

 

Coollaboratory deliver Liquid MetalPad for Notebooks. There is two thickness of the two copper foils (0,1mm and 0,2 mm thickness). A fiasco. Don't expect Silver foils will do it any better

 

Ah, yes, I remember our last in depth discussion on solder and low melting point metals in various similar forms.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...cientific-opinions-on-heatsinks-pipes.811453/

 

I was trying to edit my last post but Chrome on Android is throwing an error...

Was just gonna add this convenient chart:



The error I'm getting on Android Chrome when trying to edit my last post looks like this:

 

Did you try on desktop to edit?







@ajc9988 @Falkentyne

I bought this one yesterday

Still have time to cancel it if it's the wrong one (have not shipped), so please one last time confirm for me if it's the right one

@RampantGorilla I'm fully aware of the inability to fill micro gaps, but seeing as one person claims to be 5c of LM it's worth a shot I think.


https://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=260012851&uq=636612455623241816

P122034-ND

EYG-S0909ZLX2

90x90mm

 

I MADE THIS CLEAR FIVE TIMES IN A ROW NOW
that is the EXACT SAME PAD I PURCHASED
THAT IS THE RIGHT ONE.

Like how many times do i have to repeat myself?
am i a monster?
am i not a real person?
am i some sort of goddamn object??????????
a n object for all of you people to use to fix your goddamn computers and use and bleed me for advice but not to accept or love as a person and to make me keep my distance and get away from you once my usefulness is over??? cuz all o fyou goddamn people are all rich and made o fmoney and all successful and all happy and **** while i have to suffer poor and dying from my medical problems while you all get to enjoy your lives?????????????

 

@Mobius 1 no, Ive been away from my computer for most of today. I've got a strange external heat sinking prototype similar in function to a lap pad fan cooler (but hopefully more effective) that I am working on but that's not for this thread .



Getting back to this thread though:

What I was getting at with my previous posts and charts is if we are throwing void/gap filling mostly out the window and going for raw Z axis thermal transfer capacity based on best possible lapped contact surfaces and mounting pressure, silver foil seems it would outperform the graphite stuff from a W/mK standpoint in the Z direction (even the Innovation Cooling and Indium Corp Indium/Gallistan/liquid metal alloys based foil solutions (both melting and non-melting alloy versions of the foil squares))

Considering the limitations of Z axis and that graphite excels in the XY plane by a large factor, would that mean cutting a long rectangle of the graphite sheet and folding it over on itself (whether a sharp crease or a soft loop is up for experimentation) could potentially route the heat more efficiently in the XY plane despite the Z direction ultimately having 2 layers of the graphite sheet (double the thickness)?

The heat would have to travel double the distance but it could still also travel in the Z direction as well. The key factor being it is folded or looped and not actually cut into two individual pieces.

( Yeah I know these are ridiculously long shots and ways of thinking, but somebody's gotta suggest the ridiculous stuff. )

 

sorry ;-;

 

Holy **** man, relax and take a breather for a minute... nobody is out to get you. I get it, life is hard and life sucks but don't just go making assumptions about all of us being rich and **** and in perfect health because you're having a bad week. Do you have access to medical marijuana where you live? (Or are you allowed to smoke it for that matter?) I'd be tempted to send you some medicine to ease your mind.

If you need some help or support maybe make a thread here on the forums for yourself. You seem to be a well-respected member of this community. I am sure there are a few souls on the web or here in the forums somewhere who might be able to reach out or try to help you in some way. At least that's how I feel about the bike/cycling community I've been a part of for the last 10 years or so. We all struggle sometimes, that's what friends are for. I'm sure a lot of people here have been there before too.

FWIW my dad has a plate and 7 screws in his neck and has also had 3 or 4 lower back surgeries at this point. He had vertebrae fused with the hardware left in, then had the hardware removed, fell out of the attic and did some more damage (amazingily enough the fused vertebrae held strong), and he has had uncontrollable tremors since he was a young boy in grade school that only continue to get worse to the point he can barely sign his name. He hates being unhealthy and stuck on disability considering he used to be very active and making good money when his health was better. He has been a stubborn working man his entire life, even after major neck and back surgeries. Unfortunately he walks with a cane now and not for very long at that in addition to his struggles with depression too because of it all. He recently ditched ALL the pain meds and BS his docs had him on because he is just over it all and he has been doing better lately all things considered.

I can at least understand where you're coming from considering my Dad has been in a similar debilitating state for as long as I can remember. You are not alone in that regard.

 

@Falkentyne were here for you buddy, dont despair. just having foolish hardware discussions as usual, this is what NBR is for, after all. were all aware that this isnt real life, its just a nice distraction for all of us so if you enjoy it, perfect! but dont let it stress you out, this is not what its supposed to be for!

cheers mate, hope ur situation will somehow get better in the upcoming future.

Sent from my Xiaomi Mi Max 2 (Oxygen) using Tapatalk

 

Relax dude.

 

Man if only they could curl these little graphene sheets into tubes and stack them sideways.



Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

Ok round 2 on a 15r3. Again just a test until I get the unit I want. First note I think this unit's heatsink is warped badly as normal tests were showing high 90s on the 7820HK. Even with the PGS initial boot was showing mid 90s and then low 90s with a more uneven heatsink than observed on the 13r3.

Willing to do benchmarks until the unit goes back. What do people want? Cinebench listed.

 

CPU Power Max (equivalent of furmark + prime95)

 

What kind of ambient temp is your room? This detail is important when considering your results. My non-air conditioned upstairs bedroom regularly hovers around 80F or warmer. There are also many who have air conditioned homes that sit between 60-70F which makes a considerable difference. Either way, your results don't look half bad.

 

It says 76F on the thermostat right now. I'm considering re-seating the CPU portion of the heatsink and retesting. Also I want to add that this is a Gsync unit

 

If you are upstairs and thermostat downstairs your room is likely even hotter. Cheap analog thermostats are notoriously inaccurate. Digital ones are better. But our cheap *** analog thermostat downstairs is a joke compared to what the actual apartment temps are elsewhere. So glad to finally be moving out of this place soon!

I don't think GSYNC changes much in terms of temps, at least not for Prime95 and similar CPU loads.

 

On a desktop 2600k, Maybe 1-2C higher temps with the Soft PGS pad, than with Phobya Nanogrease Extreme. Heatsink: Thermalright Venomous-X.

 

Run Aida64 as the guide. And increase clocks up to level before it throttle down/therm trip. Stock clocks doesn’t bring any value. Use ThrottleStop if you are on a bios version which allow you to use it.

 

hmm this suggests that the core differential even though not severe is not fully fixed when using this pad (which version of the pad are you using by the way?)

Its a tad hot, but a lot of pastes perform the same in this use case scenario.

 

Lets mix in LM with this thing. You know, just a little dab on both sides...

Just saturate it in conductive ability.

 

The pad is hydrophobic impossible to spread LM compound on the pad