The 700 one was the "regular" PGS, mr fox tried that and got terrible results.
Apparently that 700 w/mk rating is for the X-Y plane (horizontal) only, so its useless.
The soft PGS seems to be in 20 w/mk or 28 w/mk or something. I dont know all of the charts.
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
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Just a double check before I actually buy, this is the specific one that @Sentential tested on the alienware and got temps near LM?
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964
EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964Vasudev likes this. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
No, that's the one I bought and have right now, but only tested it on the r9 290X.
he apparently bought this one.
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0309ZLAK/P122009-ND/6575939
(
EYG-S0309ZLAK )
I honestly do not know the difference.
So someone tell me.
What is the difference between
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964
and
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0309ZLAK/P122009-ND/6575939 ??
Anyone?
@Mobius 1
@ajc9988
@Raidriar
@bloodhawk -
This is the product list from panasonic for soft PGS.
https://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/pgs2/soft-pgs
http://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/AYA0000/AYA0000C50.pdf -
These are marketed for use with power modules.Falkentyne likes this. -
my brain is somewhat hurting right now
oSChakal, jaybee83, Papusan and 1 other person like this. -
doofus99 likes this.
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So this should be fine soft PGS then?
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964
There's also the 1818 one but that's 70usd a sheet ._.ajc9988 likes this. -
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Photos attached of what I had and what it looked like. I promise I did nothing specialAttached Files:
Last edited: May 6, 2018 -
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As for the turbo boost I believe minimum clocks when on battery are 800mhz whereas if used under performance mode is I think 2.1ghz for a 7700HQ which is what is on the 13r3. I'd be happy to tests again but I have since wiped and reset the 13r3 unit for shipment back to dell and am on the Gsync 15r3 which also needs to be exchanged. Once I'm out of limbo I'll have a proper writeup and repad on it as soon as I get this sorted out with Dell.
As stated before just to eliminate any variable I'll go ahead and take a video post-disassembly showing the size of the pads cut and how I mount the heatsink as I know reading words on the internet aren't as clear as a video is. I'll also show uncut re-assembly so there's no question as to whether or not I'm fudging results and what they are for me in real time.
This way everyone can see what exactly I am doing differently from everyone so that if my results are as good as they were before they can be replicated for the lurkers here.Falkentyne, Arondel, c69k and 3 others like this. -
Hey guys, dont flame me here, but I've got some questions and ideas im trying to decide if they're even worth experimenting with.
So at this point we don't mind if our TIMs are electrically conductive, we just want maximum Z conductivity which is where layers of carbon/graphite/graphene that are laminated/bonded together fail the hardest despite their excellent heat/electrical conductivity properties in all planes as a pure material or in the XY planes when in laminate or bonded form.
Has anybody tried using ultra thin sheets of pure gold or silver as a TIM yet? (The only reason I mention gold at all is because it's soft enough at a thin-ness of ~0.1mm that it might actually stand a chance of filling voids the way we need it to (think gold leaf). I am not sure if silver would be soft enough even at that thickness, but I am surprised I have not seen any experimentation with it yet myself.)
By the numbers, silver is top of the charts as far as metals go, but I am unsure how it compares to these cutting edge carbon/graphite/graphene solutions being discussed lately, especially since they aren't "pure" forms that people often tout the numbers of.
In short, I am eyeing something like this 50mm x 50mm x 0.1mm pure silver sheet for USD $56.00, wondering if it would accomplish what you guys have been hoping these graphite solutions would.
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/265527?lang=en®ion=USLast edited: May 6, 2018 -
Frankly this soft PGS material seems like a good compromise. I'm not really sure why some people are having such bad luck with it. Again as soon as I get my issues sorted with Dell I promise to upload a video showing exactly what I've done with the results so everyone on here can judge for themselves. I'm hoping to have this done by the end of the week.
If I had to guess my thought is either:
A) its shifting during installation because it is the same consistency of aluminium foil.
B) Not enough material as I'm using sheet sizes substantially larger than the die itself. -
I don't doubt your results or methods, nor the others in this thread, I'm just thinking of other ways to achieve the results we are all after.
I don't even need any of this really, it's just what I enjoy pondering and experimenting with to move high performance computing forward. -
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How about you try actually contributing some analysis and discussion rather than just being annoying all the time?
As has been recently pointed out in this thread the graphite based solutions are touting 700-1000W/mK on their spec sheets but again, that is NOT the end of the story. In fact, in the Z direction it ends up being less than 30W/mK once all factors are considered and accounted for.
Every little bit counts when we are talking such small surface areas and thin interfaces. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
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:vbgrin:
More seriously, solid sheets of metal usually won't be soft enough to conform at the microscopic gap levels we're generally talking about unless you do some extra work, like hammering or beating the gold/silver to the heatsink and die to force them together, which could work for the heatsink, but would probably have terrible consequences for the CPU die.
Sent from my LG-H872 using TapatalkMaleko48 likes this. -
Btw, I don't think I saw this particular PDF linked in this thread yet... Lots of good info in it:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjADegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw3WMWJCvGYDYnmT5h7lIu_N
It states the Panasonic EYGS 182310 has a Z direction thermal conductivity of only 15W/mK.
And here is another interesting writeup from ~2013 about cubic boron arsenide (unsure what form that takes) matching or beating out diamond in terms of conductivity:
https://m.phys.org/news/2013-07-competitor-diamond-thermal-conductor.htmlLast edited: May 6, 2018 -
Thermal conductivity isn't the only factor that affects the thermal performance of TIMs. You also need to consider how well the TIM fills in the microscopic air gaps between the heat sink and die surface. Since silver sheets will not be able to deform and fill in the air gaps like thermal paste or even a compressible graphite pad, it is likely to perform very poorly. The higher thermal conductivity of silver is unlikely to make much of a difference vs aluminium foil because of this. Of course, this is all theoretical and empirical, real world evidence wins every time. Why don't you test your theory with cheap aluminium foil before spending $50 on something that will probably not work?FrozenLord, ajc9988 and Maleko48 like this. -
This article may be worth a read for all of you people dreaming about better cooling: https://www.bit-tech.net/news/tech/cooling/direct-to-silicon-liquid-cooling/1/
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I would try aluminum and copper leaf or foils for science, but it definitely wouldn't be store-bought food foil if that was what you were getting at, lol.
I understand the likelihood of foils to fill gaps is not much but old TIMs did in fact used to be foil based in some cases, just probably not silver and I am unsure as to their thicknesses. Then again, the rest of the cooling solutions of those times was often basic at best and primitive at worst. We are in a much better position now to re-visit some of these older concepts and possibly see better results than was thought possible previously.
It appears that "leaf" metals are 0.0002 - 0.0003 mm thick, which is considerably thinner than 0.1mm TIMs. Hell, at that point I would be willing to try whetting solder to a pure leaf finished CPU/Heatsink just for funsies.
I don't expect this solution to be a mass production solution, which is what almost all other TIMs are required to be. The fact that we are willing to put the time/effort/money into testing these novel ideas and methods may one day pay off for dedicated end users, but I don't expect any big organization to endorse it or adopt it really. -
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My only concern with that method is that any moving fluid is going to cause erosion and material loss, which at micron thicknesses of separation and on the chip itself could prove fatal to the system at some point. I wonder what kind of longevity results they are seeing. -
Maleko48 likes this.
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http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...cientific-opinions-on-heatsinks-pipes.811453/ -
@ajc9988 @Falkentyne
I bought this one yesterday
Still have time to cancel it if it's the wrong one (have not shipped), so please one last time confirm for me if it's the right one
@RampantGorilla I'm fully aware of the inability to fill micro gaps, but seeing as one person claims to be 5c of LM it's worth a shot I think.
https://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=260012851&uq=636612455623241816
P122034-ND
EYG-S0909ZLX2
90x90mmKY_BULLET likes this. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
I MADE THIS CLEAR FIVE TIMES IN A ROW NOW
that is the EXACT SAME PAD I PURCHASED
THAT IS THE RIGHT ONE.
Like how many times do i have to repeat myself?
am i a monster?
am i not a real person?
am i some sort of goddamn object??????????
a n object for all of you people to use to fix your goddamn computers and use and bleed me for advice but not to accept or love as a person and to make me keep my distance and get away from you once my usefulness is over??? cuz all o fyou goddamn people are all rich and made o fmoney and all successful and all happy and **** while i have to suffer poor and dying from my medical problems while you all get to enjoy your lives????????????? -
@Mobius 1 no, Ive been away from my computer for most of today. I've got a strange external heat sinking prototype similar in function to a lap pad fan cooler (but hopefully more effective) that I am working on but that's not for this thread
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Getting back to this thread though:
What I was getting at with my previous posts and charts is if we are throwing void/gap filling mostly out the window and going for raw Z axis thermal transfer capacity based on best possible lapped contact surfaces and mounting pressure, silver foil seems it would outperform the graphite stuff from a W/mK standpoint in the Z direction (even the Innovation Cooling and Indium Corp Indium/Gallistan/liquid metal alloys based foil solutions (both melting and non-melting alloy versions of the foil squares))
Considering the limitations of Z axis and that graphite excels in the XY plane by a large factor, would that mean cutting a long rectangle of the graphite sheet and folding it over on itself (whether a sharp crease or a soft loop is up for experimentation) could potentially route the heat more efficiently in the XY plane despite the Z direction ultimately having 2 layers of the graphite sheet (double the thickness)?
The heat would have to travel double the distance but it could still also travel in the Z direction as well. The key factor being it is folded or looped and not actually cut into two individual pieces.
( Yeah I know these are ridiculously long shots and ways of thinking, but somebody's gotta suggest the ridiculous stuff.)
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If you need some help or support maybe make a thread here on the forums for yourself. You seem to be a well-respected member of this community. I am sure there are a few souls on the web or here in the forums somewhere who might be able to reach out or try to help you in some way. At least that's how I feel about the bike/cycling community I've been a part of for the last 10 years or so. We all struggle sometimes, that's what friends are for. I'm sure a lot of people here have been there before too.
FWIW my dad has a plate and 7 screws in his neck and has also had 3 or 4 lower back surgeries at this point. He had vertebrae fused with the hardware left in, then had the hardware removed, fell out of the attic and did some more damage (amazingily enough the fused vertebrae held strong), and he has had uncontrollable tremors since he was a young boy in grade school that only continue to get worse to the point he can barely sign his name. He hates being unhealthy and stuck on disability considering he used to be very active and making good money when his health was better. He has been a stubborn working man his entire life, even after major neck and back surgeries. Unfortunately he walks with a cane now and not for very long at that in addition to his struggles with depression too because of it all. He recently ditched ALL the pain meds and BS his docs had him on because he is just over it all and he has been doing better lately all things considered.
I can at least understand where you're coming from considering my Dad has been in a similar debilitating state for as long as I can remember. You are not alone in that regard. -
@Falkentyne were here for you buddy, dont despair. just having foolish hardware discussions as usual, this is what NBR is for, after all. were all aware that this isnt real life, its just a nice distraction for all of us
so if you enjoy it, perfect! but dont let it stress you out, this is not what its supposed to be for!
cheers mate, hope ur situation will somehow get better in the upcoming future.
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Man if only they could curl these little graphene sheets into tubes and stack them sideways.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalkjaybee83 likes this. -
Ok round 2 on a 15r3. Again just a test until I get the unit I want. First note I think this unit's heatsink is warped badly as normal tests were showing high 90s on the 7820HK. Even with the PGS initial boot was showing mid 90s and then low 90s with a more uneven heatsink than observed on the 13r3.
Willing to do benchmarks until the unit goes back. What do people want? Cinebench listed.Attached Files:
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CPU Power Max (equivalent of furmark + prime95)
Attached Files:
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Maleko48 likes this.
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I don't think GSYNC changes much in terms of temps, at least not for Prime95 and similar CPU loads. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
On a desktop 2600k, Maybe 1-2C higher temps with the Soft PGS pad, than with Phobya Nanogrease Extreme. Heatsink: Thermalright Venomous-X.
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Maleko48 likes this.
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Its a tad hot, but a lot of pastes perform the same in this use case scenario. -
Lets mix in LM with this thing. You know, just a little dab on both sides...
Just saturate it in conductive ability. -
IC Graphite Thermal Pad Available for Test and Review
Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by Innovation cooling, Apr 9, 2018.