For full size desktop chips and a heatsink I strongly recommend keep using paste. In those scenarios there is pretty much no downside and good paste will last for years.
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I think my manufacturer warranty is up at the end of the year, I'd be interested in trying these out in my gt83's cpu and gpu's.
Thanks @bloodhawk for linking me this thread.
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MSI doesn't void your warranty if you repaste.
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First the video from Panasonic:
https://www.digikey.com/en/product-...ies-soft-pgs?WT.Z_sm_link=Youtube_DKDaily2017
Same concept except this is a honest to god thermal interface material that has the same graphite resin but it is compressible by 40% and not a flat sheet
(Using Alienware 13r3 as example)
I could buy this @ .2mm and use it for the CPU die and GPU die after I cut it up into pieces. Wish I could use it on the FETS but it too is conductive.
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964
-or this-
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/eyg-s0912zlgd/panasonic
...and then followup with traditional pads for the remainder and this is almost spot on at 28w/k as the original material listed here, it is designed also as a permenant TIM and is likely a better material to try with. I intend on ordering once I get word from Dell.Last edited: Apr 30, 2018Maleko48 and Falkentyne like this. -
I'd also love to try one of these, but sadly I can't PM you because I don't have 5 posts
Edit:
Reached 5 "Quality" posts, but didn't realized I know have to wait until 11pm for them to approve me :/
If there are any still available I will still PM you when I can.
Thanks.Last edited: Apr 30, 2018 -
What effect would ensuring the two 'joining' surfaces are as smooth as possible would have in the 'performance' of the graphite pads?
The main purpose of a TIM in paste form is to fill an imperfections found between the two surfaces :
However, does this pad have any compression to it? Can it adequately fill the gaps?
A) I'm curious if lapping to remove the imperfections would create more surface area for the pad to 'touch' both sides of the equation, and thus improve heat conductivity than what is being reported here. Also, curious if, B) instead of lapping, a very small, thin spread of paste on both heat source and heat sink would be another way of filling in those imperfections to the pad.
Or is it all coming down to mounting pressure?Last edited: May 20, 2018ajc9988 likes this. -
Lapping the heat sinks will do two things: (1) decrease the average thickness of the TIM and (2) reduce the number of air gaps in the TIM. Both of these factors will increase the rate of heat transfer. I don't think that the pad will be able to fill those gaps as well as thermal paste, despite it being compressible. However, the higher thermal conductivity of the pad may offset this to some degree, perhaps even to the point where it performs similarly to TG Kryonaut.
Increasing mounting pressure has exactly the same effect as lapping the heat sink. Since the vast majority of well-engineered heat sinks are smooth and flat, increasing the mounting pressure will have a greater impact on rate of heat transfer than lapping the heat sink assuming the heat sink is smooth and flat.jaybee83 likes this. -
I am somewhat wary of the phrasing of well-engineered. Now, I cannot comment on the quality of MSI heat sinks, but I do know the Clevo heat sinks leave a lot to be desired (i.e. they are not necessarily smooth or flat).
So the question still stands to those here reporting their actual results with the graphite pads regarding the smoothness/flatness of the equipment, and perhaps making a mod or two to the application of the pad to see if that helps.Last edited: Apr 30, 2018 -
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As far as I know msi heatsinks have had good QC so far.
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
@jclausius @RampantGorilla Yes I sure can.
MSIsinks are convex as all living hell. The GPUsinks are fine.....but the CPU............yuck.
MSI uses Lairdtech for thermal material to cover up the unevenness in their CPU heatsinks...) (Thank you @Papusan ) -
I have trialled stacking a couple of strips of the graphite pads on the heatsink "bridge" on my P870DM3.
It appears to have dropped maximum CPU temp by around 10C compared with the 0.5mm thermal pad that was there (which dropped by a couple C over the stock 1mm pad)
Actual results are more like 12C-13C but its been chilly here since I did my 'before' runs so I have to account for a lower ambient.
Before: 90C ish.
After: 78C is maximum I've seen.
Delidded 6700K @ 4.6 1.23V static with approx 87W package power.
Caveat: I cannot currently overclock the snot out of it to generate maximum heat as the Metabox BIOS has RSR on by default and no BIOS option to disable. Prema will be dealing with this shortlyas the CPU seems stable at 4.7 stock voltage for as long as I've been able to test it (sometimes it does a whole Realbench encode before rsr kicks it back to 4.1 other times its near instant)
Maleko48, ajc9988, Falkentyne and 1 other person like this. -
give it some time, im sure it will be released sometime soon. its basically JUST been announced and beta tested
@bennyg have u tried copper shims with a high performance thermal paste on both sides instead of thermal pads for the cpu/gpu heatsink connection? should lower the cpu temps even more via improved heat conductance with the gpu heatsinks
Sent from my Xiaomi Mi Max 2 (Oxygen) using TapatalkLast edited: Apr 30, 2018 -
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
Magic Smoke? -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
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Now, I've seen it match certain types of thermal paste. This has a 37W/mK rating, those pastes have under 10 (usually 4-8, depending on the paste). But that is where your explanation of the higher heat transfer rating overcoming the difference in not filling the gaps. -
I wouldn't. I know there are some variants that have layers on either side, and the thicker the graphite pad, the lower the electrical conductance, and if you do not hit the contact points (meaning the soldered joints or an open gate on the choke), you could theoretically do it, but I do not know if this has a dry out or flake factor. My recommendation is no (but I will not stop people from destroying their own hardware). But I'm not to a point at the moment to risk $300-500 MB and possibly fry my chip in the process.Maleko48 and Falkentyne like this. -
@jaybee83 - my thinking was the really, really thin layer of paste would be able to be squeezed into these spaces better than the pad. The idea is the pad would touch both surfaces as much as possible, and the paste would help transfer to other surface area where the pad does not make contact.
Last edited: May 1, 2018hmscott likes this. -
hmm one could try to "massage" the paste into the hestsink, clean off the excess and then use the pad
or just go for lapping
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Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalkjclausius likes this. -
Kind if like a throttle that kicks in if "overvolting" is detected, just forces an oh so pedestrian x41 multi until a prolonged state of idle has passed.
Thing is, I'm getting it at stock adaptive voltage settings from only upping the multi to x47...Falkentyne likes this. -
While the pad may be compressible and this may help fill the tiny gaps to some extent, it will not be as a good a as filling the air gaps as TG Kryonaut. This is simply because Kryonaut is a fluid, albeit a very viscous fluid. When a force (in this case from the heat sink) is applied to the Kryonaut paste, it will flow in all directions very easily, unlike the pad, which will behave like a sponge. You can think of it like filling a open egg carton:
Imagine placing a very large sponge over the bottom half of the carton and pressing down on the sponge with another egg carton. The bottom egg carton is the die and the top egg carton is the heat sink. Each crevice where an egg would normally go represents an air gap. Now imagine the same situation, but with a very thick layer of paste between the two cartons. In which scenario will the air gaps be smaller? It will be in the scenario where the paste is in between the the two cartons because it can flow much more easily into the air gaps than the sponge.
Now that we have established the fact that using a graphite pad in place of a traditional paste will result in larger air gaps, we can examine the effect this will have on heat transfer. Air is a poor thermal conductor (k = 0.025 W/mK) and will slow down the rate of heat transfer. Essentially, as the air gaps get larger and more numerous, the rate at which heat is transferred across the TIM decreases.
On the other hand, the higher thermal conductivity of the pad will help offset this to some degree. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
If you want to fill the small gaps, you need this pad:
Also by panasonic but compressible by 40%.
Their "PGS" tech:
This has double the W/MK of the IC stuff (the IC stuff is 13 W/MK).
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0909ZLX2/P122034-ND/6575964 -
So guys what is a end result. We have some comparison chat
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anyone up for a direct comparison of this pad vs. the IC one?
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
I'm going to order this pad soon.
I need to order an extra one for a friend also. But I never ordered anything from them before and it's expensive as all hellI mean...I bought 30 grams of Liquid metal for $22 and this is MORE expensive !!!
jaybee83 likes this. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
@jaybee83
Is this the Innovation pad they are using?
Is it 0.5mm or 1.5mm?
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-T3535A05A/P121364-ND/6217292
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-T3535A15A/P121366-ND/6217294
These are 13 W/MK.
The other pad is 28 W/MK.
It also seems to come in a 90mm * 90mm sheet? and is 0.2mm thick?
*edit* just ordered one. Now I need to see if I can order one to a different shipping address for my friend.
RIP my fixed income pocketbook for the month (I'm on SSI).Last edited: May 1, 2018 -
jaybee83 likes this.
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For the record this is what I ordered:
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c-components/EYG-S0309ZLAK/P122009-ND/6575939
For reference .05mm is the thickness of a single printer sheet of paper and so .2mm in my mind is plenty for a CPU TIM. The -S designate is for "Soft" meaning the higher compressibility type PGS. I intend to cut these into the proper sized square and from what I can tell it is quite soft so there's no reason to order such a large sheet.
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data ...tronic Components/EYG-S_Series_Prod_Intro.pdf
Last edited: May 1, 2018jaybee83 likes this. -
Edit: for your convenience, your statement I was addressing "Increasing mounting pressure has exactly the same effect as lapping the heat sink. Since the vast majority of well-engineered heat sinks are smooth and flat, increasing the mounting pressure will have a greater impact on rate of heat transfer than lapping the heat sink assuming the heat sink is smooth and flat."
Edit 2: Also, your statement on "flat" is laughable compared to this:
Edit 3: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/w.../guides/4th-gen-core-lga1150-socket-guide.pdf
Go to page 25. It might enlighten you to the reference I was mentioning on limits.Last edited: May 1, 2018dmanti, Maleko48 and Falkentyne like this. -
ajc9988 likes this.
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In regards to laptops, absolutely correct. They use low to medium mounting pressure, try to use the spring mounts to compensate for tolerances (such as varying heights in the socket height, the CPU height with the IHS, etc.). But, it is something to be considered, as if left open, I could see a person over torque a desktop after seeing this here and do some real damage, especially if they left the delidded die without any spacer if there is a gap between the IHS and PCB with the IHS having full contact with the die, then wondering what happened. Also, on desktop application, that is where PCB bending comes in most often (unless mfr. defect but the board was still usable and QC/QA didn't catch it, which is irrelevant to the convo at hand). And I have seen torque reqs for some laptops, but it has been awhile since I looked for them, if being honest. But I did have to figure out on the Clevo what torque to use when doing a custom change from the spring screws to regular screws on that mirrored heatsink I posted, so I reviewed tolerances and force limits, then did my best to figure out approximate loads and torque to downward force.dmanti likes this. -
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edit: just watched it... un-sploosh. Definitely un-sploosh.Last edited: May 2, 2018ajc9988 likes this. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
Results:
Can't use this product with weak heatsink pressures. r9 290X: DRIED UP LM: 79C. Kryonaut : 79C. CM Gel Mako Nano: 81C. IC Graphite: 87C. If it weren't 60 degrees F in my room right now, my r9 290X would be crashing in PUBG.
Panasonic PGS pad will arrive tomorrow. That's 28 W/MK and 40% compressible compared to this IC pad's panasonic rating of 13 W/MK. I'll test that when it comes. -
Maleko48 likes this.
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
These are Panasonic pads, BTW. Just a different line of them. Panasonics PGS+ have to be better since the w/mk is higher. can't be worse.
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Let me ask: do the people here understand Pyrolytic Graphite, where the concept for use came from, and the factors for thermal conduction of PGS? This includes the heat conducting properties relative to the planes in play for the use of this as a thermal pad or thermal interface material of some form?
Edit: So, I'll talk about it a bit. It starts with graphene (which, funny enough, I was evidently creating in grade school by scribbling graphite onto a surface, then using scotch tape to lift a single layer off of that surface; who knew a decade or so later, the noble prize was given for doing the same thing). One of the things they discovered about the single layer graphene, aside from its awesome electrical conductance properties, was the ability to transmit heat across the plane. PG is more than a single layer, hence not graphene, but has been discovered to have similar heat properties when in thin enough layers, while having heat conductance similar to that of diamond, another compact carbon product. With graphite, you have to examine heat transference on the different planes X, Y, and Z (or A, B, and C). Now, the X and Y (or A and B) planes have extremely high heat transfers with them being up to 1600+ W/mK. That is great for reducing the problems of hot spots because it spreads out the heat so quickly. But, what we care about for heat transfer in our products is the Z or C plane. This is the plane that transfers heat from the IHS to the thermal material, then on to the heat sink. Now, the Z plane is much lower than A and B, as seen in the ratings from IC and Panasonic. This continues to decrease as the thickness of the graphite sheet is increased. Now, I'm going to skip talking about the thermal resistance of this plane, but it is good if people understand that comes into play.
Now, depending on variant, you could have a laminate, epoxy, or adhesive added to one or both sides of the graphite sheet. Each of these layers introduce its own thermal resistance and conductance to the equation, thereby effecting the efficacy of this as a thermal material for our purposes.
Some have studied using the X&Y planes by doing multiple stacks of graphite sheets, then using a specialized cutting tool to slice those stack into sheets. Unfortunately, this can cause dry out, cracking, and flaking if not laminated in some form, which then cuts down on the transfer properties drastically.
So, with this all said, it is important to examine this when looking at the specific products offered. This is before discussing handling, durability, etc.Last edited: May 2, 2018Maleko48, jaybee83, Sentential and 1 other person like this. -
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
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In other news though, I received another X1C6 heatsink to test with. I'm not so sure if the results would change but I'll try again with the new heatsink. -
I looked over some of the datasheets, and besides the 0.2 mm soft sheets, Panasonic has some products designed specifically for the Z direction https://ro.mouser.com/datasheet/2/315/AYA0000C12-1003309-1287617.pdf that come in 0.5 to 2mm thickness.
The datasheet for the 0.2 mm soft sheet is here https://ro.mouser.com/datasheet/2/315/AYA0000C50-1129407.pdf . Can't see the ratings on the Z direction for this one.
Not sure how these compare with each other. Is a 0.2 mm sheet too thin for a notebook heat sink? Someone posted a few pages back that stacking the IC sheets resulted in better thermals... does one need thicker sheets for laptops and thinner ones for desktop CPUs? -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
bennyg likes this. -
Interesting topic, curious what results you'll get with the soft sheets. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
He said he was using a thermal pad. A 0.5mm thermal pad.
so he stacked 0.2mm graphite pads to replace the 0.5mm thermal pad.
I don't know what 'bridge' is either. -
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
So you guys actually think stacking the pads will work on low pressure heatsinks?
IC Graphite Thermal Pad Available for Test and Review
Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by Innovation cooling, Apr 9, 2018.