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    *** OFFICIAL GIGABYTE AERO 15 OWNERS LOUNGE ***

    Discussion in 'Gigabyte and Aorus' started by BringTheRain403, May 8, 2017.

  1. Meetloaf13

    Meetloaf13 fear the MONKEY!!!

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    It is not quick, but my fan sounded like hell, so I had no choice. It took a couple weeks.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     
  2. cy.cotic

    cy.cotic Newbie

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    Hey, Rooney! I'm also experiencing the 1-second lag for right-clicking. How exactly did you solve the issue? What is shell view? I appreciate your help!!
     
  3. cy.cotic

    cy.cotic Newbie

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    1. I used the Precision drivers that I flashed for a while without issue! I doubt you'll experience an issue unless you download a new touchpad driver.

    3. You can run the fan at max speed, but I, personally, wouldn't see a need to unless its just for faster performance. Perhaps keep it on the "gaming" mode through Smart Manager. The only downside to maxing out the fan would probably be the battery life running out.

    4. The aero 15x is being released soon. They aren't shipping out new ones right now as they're refreshing some internal components currently. I'd still stick with the 1060 due to the battery life - but the full black color of the 15x does entice me :/.

    5. You'd rather want to have a clean-installed OS on your laptop. You don't require the excessive bloatware that ships with the laptop. Also, I've clean-installed my own aero-15 a few times and all I've done is re-installed smart manager and smart-updater from Gigabyte's website. Smart-updater should get you all the drivers you need!
     
  4. sironlin

    sironlin Newbie

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    Please give me a hint on how to install the smart manager correctly. Even after a clean win 10 install I dont get it to start.
     
  5. factory_666

    factory_666 Notebook Consultant

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    15x is already out. I'm typing on it right now. The battery lasts up to 10 hours with light usage.
     
  6. HussainQ

    HussainQ Notebook Evangelist

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    They stopped selling them so that they can release a refresh with upgraded components later this year.
     
  7. cy.cotic

    cy.cotic Newbie

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    I'm experiencing Bluetooth issues.
    Smart Manager (Win 10 64bit). Also, here's the link to the downloads and drivers for the Aero 15.
     
  8. cy.cotic

    cy.cotic Newbie

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    Does anyone else experience slow boot times? I've clean-installed Windows a few times on the machine and always experience inconsistent boot times. It lingers on the Gigabyte splash screen for quite some time before displaying the lock-screen. I have the 960 Pro 1TB so I have no clue as to why it's so slow. My 5 year old Toshiba laptop has a 2.5 in xlr8 SSD with slower speeds and loads up within 5 seconds from a cold boot. (I have the Samsung NVME driver installed). Does installing the 960 pro matter to which slot you put it in? I also have the stock drive inside as well. Would that make a difference?
     
  9. Dro Gregorian

    Dro Gregorian Newbie

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    Hey y'all! Managed to snag the ever-elusive Aero 15X off amazon from Mobile Advance. I haven't had too much time to play with it yet though. So far it's running smoothly, no annoying noises, and it's plenty responsive. Only issues are a somewhat sensitive and relatively featureless touch pad and STUCK PIXELS. It's driving me crazy! There's about 3-4 vertical lines 15-20 pixels long in the upper left corner. They change color with background so I don't think they're dead. I've been running JScreenFix and UDPixel for a few hours now to no avail. Any advice on how to fix this would be much appreciated as I want to avoid an RMA process.
     
  10. Desmond Kursinsky

    Desmond Kursinsky Newbie

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    After dreaming of it for several months, I finally ordered my 15w...

    I remember while creeping thru this forum, back in January maybe?, that there was "what to do immediately" upon receiving the laptop. Mostly to do with steps for a clean windows install and bloatware removal.

    So I haven't been following religiously, has there been any updates to those recommendations? Any succinct posts summing it all up? With a link preferably ;)

    Thanks!
     
  11. kkroz

    kkroz Newbie

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    Hi there guys !

    I need your help please, I received my Aero 15 a few days ago.

    Everything in the computer is awesome but the keyboard is a complete mess and I would like to know if it's normal and I have to deal with it or if the issues could be solved if I send it back to Gigabyte.

    I have problems with repeated keys : sometimes keys just double randomly and make "f*ck cing double press slike" that. I used the tutorial about bouncing keys and regedit, it now happens less often but still twice in a line of text.

    And issues as well with keys that need huge press to be activated. Meaning the key is pushed down but it doesn't register, I have to press it like really hard. And few keys can't be kept activated like Alt or Shift even if you press hard it doesn't keep on and then "You MISS cAps" = I never left my finger from Shift while writing it.

    Just to know if people are facing those issues or not facing those please ? Then I know if I send it back if I can hope for a solve of those problems or if I have to deal with it.

    Thank you a lot for reading guys !! Have fun in life ! :)
     
  12. vivithemage

    vivithemage Notebook Evangelist

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    Yeah, I too want to know!
     
  13. Sparky961

    Sparky961 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Having read this entire thread prior to purchasing mine, it's only slightly annoying to see the same questions asked over and over. Please people, spend some time searching a little before you ask.

    Alas, I agree that this problem is VERY annoying but I went through and followed the instructions this very helpful person posted NOT TOO LONG AGO and mine works AMAZINGLY now. You can even tweak your key repeat rate and such just to your liking.

    http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...5-owners-lounge.804575/page-195#post-10673685
     
  14. kkroz

    kkroz Newbie

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    I have read the entire thread as well after purchasing mine. The fact is : a guy asked about the pressure on keys once, nobody answered him. Still the case here...

    For the bouncing solution, I've tried all you can get in the thread. You quoted me "I used the tutorial about bouncing keys and regedit, it now happens less often but still twice in a line of text." Meaning I have already done what you talk about and it didn't solve the problem, just reduced it. I used the basic numbers the guy used, tried to change it as well, no results, maybe you have magical numbers that solve the issue please ? Cheers.
     
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  15. lemegetin

    lemegetin Notebook Enthusiast

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    same here... would love to know what would be a good time but it definitely seems slower than my old samsung
     
  16. AresHarvest

    AresHarvest Notebook Guru

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    I'm not the guy you asked, but my solution on the 15W was the emptyproject11.exe program that came on the machine. When opened, it runs in the background and is assigned to the GPU, but supposedly in an inactive state.

    This prevents the stutter/lag when right clicking and doing other tasks that prompts the machine to switch back and forth between integrated GPU and discrete GPU. Be warned that it does use up some battery, since the GPU is drawing a little bit of power, but in my case not by a huge amount.

    I created start menu shortcuts for cmd files that would each (a) activate one of my power plans, and (b) run or kill emptyproject11.exe as needed. One click solutions, once it's set up.

    It's not complicated at all, in case you're wondering, and it doesn't involve any registry changes or anything like that.

    More info in my two posts here:
    1. http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...5-owners-lounge.804575/page-159#post-10640613
    2. http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...5-owners-lounge.804575/page-163#post-10646265
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
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  17. Sparky961

    Sparky961 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Ok, you have my apology. It seems I was skimming and didn't read your entire reply before responding.

    Here are the numbers I used in the registry. I didn't change them all, but have included them all for reference:

    [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Accessibility\Keyboard Response]
    "AutoRepeatDelay"="250"
    "AutoRepeatRate"="10"
    "BounceTime"="35"
    "DelayBeforeAcceptance"="0"
    "Flags"="27"
    "Last BounceKey Setting"=dword:000001f4
    "Last Valid Delay"=dword:00000000
    "Last Valid Repeat"=dword:00000000
    "Last Valid Wait"=dword:000003e8
     
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  18. cy.cotic

    cy.cotic Newbie

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    Hey! I remember viewing a solution like this somewhere else on this thread (most probably you haha) Approximately, how much less battery do you receive? I take my PC to school almost every day and I'm starting not to pack the charger with me just because my pack is very heavy. Also, is there a way to revert the setting? Does it affect anything start-up time or anything else besides being able to have a responsive trackpad?
    Kind of related: I notice that when the GPU is running, the trackpad's right click will obviously be responsive like you mentioned. While it's not, opening windows explorer from the taskbar while it's pinned takes longer than when opening it through the start menu, or simply typing Win + E. When the GPU runs, it opens windows explorer from the taskbar much more responsively. Will you solution to the right click lag fix this issue as well?
     
  19. AresHarvest

    AresHarvest Notebook Guru

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    1. Approx 3.0 hours on my "performance" power plan. 0 MHz max frequency, 25% min / 100% max processor state, emptyproject11 active, 100% brightness, link state power management off
    2. Approx 5.0 hours on my "normal" power plan. 2800 MHz max frequency, 5% min / 100% max processor state, emptyproject11 active, 77% brightness, link state power management "max savings"
    3. Approx 7.0 hours on my "long battery" power plan. 1800 MHz max frequency, 5% min / 30% max processor state, emptyproject11 inactive, 48% brightness, link state power management "max savings"
    4. Approx 1.5 hours on "performance" while playing a game. This GPU is power hungry.
    I've under-volted the processor by 125 mV. Wish I could tell you what effect this had on battery life - it's got to make some difference, but I don't know how much - but it did reduce my idle and load temps by 9 degrees.

    Reverting the settings, I think you can get the Balanced profile to revert to factory setting (2800 max plugged in, 1400 MHz max on battery) by going to power options, click "change plan settings" next to the Balanced plan, then click the "restore plan defaults" button.

    I haven't noticed any change in startup time, although this laptop has always been slow to boot. Takes about 25 seconds. For comparison, my Asus laptop (win 8.1, samsung 840 evo boot drive) takes 7 seconds to go from cold boot to login screen.

    Not sure if my solution will do anything to equalize the taskbar open times, but it might.

    I think I've answered all your Qs, but don't hesitate to ask if there's anything else you'd like to know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  20. HussainQ

    HussainQ Notebook Evangelist

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    I'm getting a weird thing where my bluetooth disappears altogether at random times. Can't even find it in device manager. I'm trying to roll back a driver and see what that does, but has anyone experienced this?

    EDIT: That fixed nothing. I thought it might be connection issue, but I reseated the card and it still has the issue. Maybe it's a power issue, but that should mean it would just turn off rather than disappear completely.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  21. Radyium

    Radyium Newbie

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    Hi everyone,
    i search on the thread but i could not find anyone with the same issue as me.

    I got my aero15 last year in July. Yesterday i was on battery (30%), reading news, then it suddenly switch off.
    I can't anymore switch on again, nothing happen, no light, no led, no screen, i'm not getting any led when i plug the charger, nothing at all !
    I was up to date for everything, and bios up to date too (at the current date 25-05-2018 : FB0B FD0B), i was not using beta Bios.
    I notice a small "tick" noise every ~ 30s which "seems" like coming from where is the battery (not sure)

    The laptop is not cheap, i hope i can fix it or someone have an idea

    Thanks
    Radyium
     
  22. Francesco V.

    Francesco V. Notebook Consultant

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    Hi,

    I would like to buy this laptop but it is not clear what is the current situation about the issues that I read in this thread and around internet.
    Here a list (that concerns me :D )

    1. Light bleeding on bottom part of screen in case you lower luminosity and restart laptop
    2. Screen to much mobile due to loosy hinges
    3. Bad trackpad. Is changing driver to windows precision enough to fix this ?
    4. Keyboard: ghosting and missing key combination. Still in place or fixed with some BIOS update ?
    5. Keyboard: single click on a key result in double char printing. Still in place ?
    Thanks a lot
     
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  23. AresHarvest

    AresHarvest Notebook Guru

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    I think you'll find different experiences, but here are mine:
    1. Backlight uniformity and bleed is pretty substantial. I am not happy with the display at all.
    2. I have encountered no issue with the hinge. It stays where I put it.
    3. In my opinion the Trackpad isn't great, but it's not terrible either. Changing to a Lenovo-supplied precision driver did help a lot.
    4. I encounter no ghosting, but some key combinations with multiple modifiers just don't work (like ctrl+shift+up)
    5. I have not encountered the issue of incorrect repeat key presses
     
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  24. helicopter_boy

    helicopter_boy Newbie

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    Guys please help) Just bought my Aero 15, after first start setups windows alarm me to install big necessery update (fall creators update) 1709. After installing it on the "clear" laptop (after first start - installed only drivers and gigabyte software) I got a problems. Some programs and standart applications opens with a 2-3 seconds freez. Control panel, browser Chrome, right-click menu on desktop opens after 2-3 second freeze and mouse cursor freeze also. Other applications, programs open normally. I triied to turn off antiivirus and triesd different power options, but problem still here.
     
  25. factory_666

    factory_666 Notebook Consultant

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    Fall Creators Update seems to mess up with Aero 15s. Type "Recovery Options" in Cortana and select the App that it will bring up. There should be an option to "Revert to previous version of Windows" select it and go through the motions. The laptop will spend some time restarting itself and will remove Fall Creator's update. This will also uninstall any programs that you have installed since Fall Creator's Update on your PC. Reverting to pre-Fall Creator's state will remove the stuterring and also significantly improve battery life (at least in the case of my laptop and many others).

    The problem is that Fall Creators Update will constantly harass you and will eventually install itself a week after. What I do is "revert to previous version of Windows" every time it happens. It's insanely annoying, but I think there is a way to edit registry to prevent auto-updates.
     
  26. factory_666

    factory_666 Notebook Consultant

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    I have an Aero 15x.

    1. I have not noticed anything in the bottom part. Perhaps I don't know what "Light Bleed" is or how to check for it. No issues watching dark scenes in movies or playing video games outside with bright winter sun shining at the screen.

    2. Hinges are a bit loose- if you are in the passenger seat of the car driving off road - the screen will shake. At the desk- there are no issues.

    3. I probably have never used a good track pad before, but I'm super happy with this one. Lenovo drivers also improve it quite a lot, there are a lot of gestures, the size is large, the buttons are clicky.

    4. On Aero 15x all the key combos seem to work fine. Especially Ctrl+Shift+Up or Down as I use them all the time.

    5. There is double printing and it happens often. Luckily there is an easy fix detailed a couple pages ago.
     
  27. NeKryXe

    NeKryXe Notebook Enthusiast

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    1) The bleeding is really bad, but the whole screen is pretty awful, so you'll probably never use it. It's bad for image work and even worst to play due to the high amount of banding. I have my laptop connected to an external monitor all the time.
    2) I have no problem at all with that.
    3) Seems ok to me, but since I transformed my Aero 15 in a desktop due to the hideous screen, I mostly use a mouse.
    4) Seems fixed to me, but the same of 3)
    5) Never noticed such that problem.

    The laptop is ok if you don't need to use the screen and you don't mind to deal with the insanely loud noise of the fans :)
     
  28. Graboose

    Graboose Newbie

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  29. lebellium

    lebellium Notebook Geek

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    New BIOS version FB0C / F008.
    Ladies and gentlemen, I can confirm you that this one is finally the good one! :)

    Hardware support for branch target injection mitigation is present: True
     
  30. HussainQ

    HussainQ Notebook Evangelist

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    What does that mean?
     
  31. snisni

    snisni Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hello, I tried to install Lenovo elan driver for trackpad like in d2dave video, but I got some errors. After updating drivers from the directory and restarting, my trackpad works, but taps and clicks dont work. In device manager I see undefined device ELAN Miniport PTP, I updating driver for it and after second restart my laptop freeze with blue screen. After 3rd restart everything looks good. All drivers work. I tried this way on the two Aero 15 laptops. And both times got the same errors. I'm a little worried about this situation. Reading this thread I didnt find any message with the same problem. I did everything like in video.
     
  32. snisni

    snisni Notebook Enthusiast

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    and the second question. About two m.2 slots for SSD. Is one of them SATA and second for Nvme PCI-E or both slots support SATA and Nvme PCI-E?) Sorry for noob question. I got my Aero with 512 Sata SDD and I want to purchase second faster SSD for 512. Can I set my second SSD as primary drive and original one as secondary in BIOS? I made Recovery USB, after I install windows from my USB to new SSD drive will it become like an original SSD with hidden recovery partition?
    Any ways to transfer all files from original SSD to the second SSD and made 2nd SSD as primary for saving time and not installing everything again? Thanks.
     
  33. Vipeout

    Vipeout Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hi Aero 15 owners! Received my 15w today, replacing my 6 year old trusty DELL XPS17.
    I didn't manage to read through all the pages in this Thread, but I read a big portion of the posts since December.
    The below post summarizes some very good points which I find very helpful, thanks to @RockinSteady for that! I wanted to ask whether there is anything else to consider or not covered by his post and which I should do or take into account once I get home today and start the machine up.
    First thing I'm gonna do is make a USB backup, but I'm not yet sure whether I should do a clean win10 install or just uninstall all the bloat. Thoughts?

    Thank you and yay for joining the owners club :)

     
  34. Graboose

    Graboose Newbie

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    Everytime I try to download mine using the Smart Update, the file is password protected in a zip
     
  35. lebellium

    lebellium Notebook Geek

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    That with this BIOS version your system will be finally fully Spectre and Meltdown-protected.

    Unfortunately I forgot to save the ZIP in temp files C:\Program Files\Smart Update\temp or save the download link in C:\Program Files\Smart Update\temp\driver.xml before updating the BIOS.
    It's too late for me but another user can help you.
     
  36. AresHarvest

    AresHarvest Notebook Guru

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    Edit: whoops, I wasn't paying attention. lebellium already wrote what I posted here.
     
  37. cy.cotic

    cy.cotic Newbie

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    Are these the speeds you currently get? I have the stock drive installed as well as a 960 pro 1TB and it takes at the least 25 seconds and around 32 seconds max. I have another 2.5" SSD in my old laptop from 2013 which boots in 6 seconds.
     
  38. cy.cotic

    cy.cotic Newbie

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    Hi guys, what's everyone's boot time? I'm experiencing a new issue where after I system restored (for like the 5th time due to poor Microsoft Reps not knowing what to do), my boot times have been super slow. I have a 960 PRO NVME with the OS installed on it, and use the stock SSD that came with the Aero for photos and videos. Before the lock-screen shows up, the screen is black with an active cursor for quite a bit of time.

    My old laptop from 2013 boots in 6 seconds and the only reason I felt comfortable purchasing the Aero was because I thought it would out-perform my old laptop. I've also been experiencing other issues as well but for now, here's a video that demonstrates my issue
     
  39. snisni

    snisni Notebook Enthusiast

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    I got the same issue. I have NVME 960 EVO with factory OS image installed on it and the stock sata ssd as a secondary drive (deleted all partitions and formated like new drive). I also have everyday problems with factory software like smart manager and smart updater. Sometimes these programs dont work, sometimes when I try to open smart manager my laptop freeze and the only way is hard reset pressing power button for several seconds and all my work lost :(
     
  40. snisni

    snisni Notebook Enthusiast

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    I have windows 10 home with 1709 build and all updates installed and lates versions of smart manager and smart update.
     
  41. factory_666

    factory_666 Notebook Consultant

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    I'm debating on a new TV or a Monitor to hook my 15x up with and I'm a little confused about cables and functions:

    1) Do I need to connect through any specific cables to take advantage of HDR when gaming?

    2) Same question with cables but in regards to 60hz+. Maybe a 100 or a 144hz monitor.

    3) Also what's the verdict on running games at 1440p on a 4K screen? Does it produce any side effects or does it mess with the refresh rate? 1070 MaxQ can't run modern AAA games at 4k and 60fps+ (hardly anything can), so I'd rather stick to lower resolutions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  42. AresHarvest

    AresHarvest Notebook Guru

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    1. HDMI 2.0 or higher, these are the ones you want for 4k and/or HDR. 2.1 is the latest revision, go with that if you can.
    2. HDMI 2.1 if you need 4k or higher at 120 Hz. Higher frame rates at 4k resolution and above would require displayport as far as I know.
    3. It varies from TV to TV, since the quality is determined by the upscaling. For example, my 4k TV does a great job of upscaling SD material, but it sucks for upscaling 720p.
     
  43. Jack Dingo

    Jack Dingo Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hey guys, I was planing on getting the Aero15X but it is not available anymore. Now I have the choice of waiting for the refreshed version, which still has no ETA or getting the Aero 15.
    Do you think it is worth it to wait for the refreshed X version? possibly with coffee lake.
    I want to use it for Uni, mainly CAD programs such as Solidworks, Fusion 360, Rhinoceros and Gravity Sketch VR. And Adobe programs such as Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign. Also a bit of gaming.
    Would be appreciate any input.
    Thanks
     
  44. Niklear

    Niklear Newbie

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    Hi guys, I bought my Aero 15 almost a year ago and haven't had any major issues asides from the common keyboard combination buttons not working, though as of three days ago my keyboard stopped working in Windows entirely. The touchpad is fully functional and the keyboard lets me get into BIOS (so it works physically), but the moment the Windows screen loads up it stops. It stopped working during a Nvidia GeForce Experience driver update the other day if that has any bearing. I have never opened the laptop up physically, nor dropped it or anything to cause physical damage to the components. I'm currently using an external USB keyboard. I've done a google search and keyword searched this thread, but as you can imagine "Keyboard not working" and "Aero 15" just brings up the combination key posts and nothing focusing on the entire keyboard breaking down completely. Has anybody else had something similar happen to them, and if so what can I do to fix this issue? Any advice and suggestions would be very much appreciated. Thanks.
     
  45. factory_666

    factory_666 Notebook Consultant

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    What's the safest way of updating nVidia drivers? As I remember with my previous gaming PC from 6 years ago none of the automated options through the website or GeForce Experience worked properly. Is it still the case? Is there a way to roll them back if something goes awry? I don't have a Recovery Drive as my Windows errors out when trying to create one.
     
  46. HussainQ

    HussainQ Notebook Evangelist

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    I use GeForce Experience for auto downloads, then do a clean install when updating just to be safe. It works fine for me. I do notice that GeForce experience itself bugs out some games so I just exit all of its processes when playing a game.
     
  47. Osadst

    Osadst Newbie

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    Hey guys I just wanna show you my today's message to gigabyte, maybe any off you had similar issue.
    "Hello, I own Aero 15 since September and I take care of it better than of my own girlfriend. I was using it as usual, doing some not too heavy rendering and found out that battery is being drained even though it was plugged in.
    (Laptop is plugged in for the most of the time and I drain battery down to 30-40% every few weeks). Trying to fix this problem I did the following:
    1.Uninstalled battery driver, restarted laptop - no success
    2.Took out the battery for a minute and hard reset with power button, put it back in -no success
    3. When I run laptop without battery it either:
    - turns on for few second so the fans kick off and turn back off
    - turns on and goes to bios straight away
    - it turns on all the way to windows login window and goes off after a second
    - turns and and after seeing gigabyte logo and little loading circle it goes off
    - turns on - gigabyte logo + please wait message is displayed for few second - turns back off
    4. I left a laptop plugged in for a night and battery seems to be dead. It does nothing when turned on without AC cord also battery indicator flashes at 1st Bluetooth LED
    In Bios it shows that nvme drive is missing (and I have only one) - never touched it though"
    Additional info - I don't have the latest bios update(got the one before)
     
  48. HermannnTheGerman

    HermannnTheGerman Notebook Guru

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    My Aero 15 crashes every so often as can be see from Windows Event Log:
    Crash Events Capture.PNG Crash Events Capture.PNG

    That's a real show stopper.
     
  49. HermannnTheGerman

    HermannnTheGerman Notebook Guru

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    Same here. Smart Update downloads the bios.zip file into C:\Program Files\Smart Update\temp but is not smart enough to unzip the password protected archive and so the Bios update does not run. :eek:
     
  50. austinpike

    austinpike Notebook Enthusiast

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    We recently got the Aero 15X w/1070 Max-Q, it has been reformatted with a clean Windows 1709 build. We also have a Razer Blade 14" (1060) and Aorus x5v7 (1070.) Using them for real-time architectural animation; trying to find the best balance of performance/portability. I'm running Unigine Valley (1920x1080, OpenGL, High) to benchmark and the Gigabyte lags behind the Razer.

    Scores are ~4600/3600/3200 for Aorus/Razer/Gigabyte.

    I've installed the latest nVidia drivers (391.01); have fans set to gaming and power mode set to high performance in smart manager. Valley never shows a temp above 70c - The fans don't get obnoxious like the Razer, which I guess is good, but I almost feel like it is limiting/throttling somehow.

    On the other had, running Valley on Directx11 (1080p, Ultra, no AA) yielded 86fps/3600 score which is quite a bit higher than the Aero15/1060 in this post.

    I'll try some other benchmarks to get more details. Mostly concerned with OpenGL since that's what our 3D software is using. But the performance seems pretty lacking; is there anything obvious I might be missing?
     
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