AW M15x Throttling Issue Investigation - Stock clocks and overclocked.

Where do I get a Kill A Watt meter? I think we need to get the testing in to high gear and proper. If there is still a problem with this system after the new bios we need to document it and point it out. At this point they have admitted publicly that there is a problem, now they need to make sure it is fixed. Its in writing!

 

Heya DeeX, I just ordered an NZ equivalent of the kill a watt meter so I'll soon be able to help with testing.

 

Could someone please tell me if I will still encounter problems (i.e. not enough power from the supplied PSU) if I manage to convince Dell to swap my 260m for a 5850.

I have an i7 920 cpu and don't want to solve one problem to encounter another. Does this issue just concern the i7 940 processor and 5870 / 5850 combination, is it caused from overclocking (because I definitely won't be overclocking my system) or will I also have problems to deal with?

i7 920m
4gb RAM
260m (looking to swap to 5850)

Thanks in advance.

 

@ohdae5u

It's quads + 260M and even 5850's depending on configuration.

It is a power consumption issue. Dell issued 150w PSUs and designed their BIOS to throttle the GPU or CPU (or both) to make sure the draw complies with the PSU provided.

These issues manifest even at stock clocks and stock configurations.

The optimal, "fail" config is the 260M + 920xm/940xm since it consumes the most power. 920xm/940xm + 5850 will still encounter some throttling. Just not as severe.

Throttlestop+Rivatuner definitely help but it is up to Dell to address the problem properly which has been outlined and backed up with copious amounts of evidence.

I've documented Kill-A-Watt readings as high as 193w stress testing my M15x under Furmark + Prime95 8-thread max heat with Rivatuner and Throttlestop enabled (which even shocked me. I did a triple take).


The only real solution, which is painfully obvious and has been for months now with an ever growing list of both anecdotal and scientific evidence, is for Dell to issue a non-restrictive BIOS that doesn't throttle the GPU or CPU and then either:

A: Handle PSU upgrades (A PA-7E 210w PSU should be sufficient) on a case by case basis due to some systems being able to operate fine with a 150w PSU (IE 240M+i3/i5, 5730+i3/i5, maybe even 5850+i3/i5 or 260M+i3/i5)

B: Recall the 150w PSUs and blanket issue 210w PSUs to all users (Highly unlikely).

As noted earlier, a BIOS upgrade that relaxes the restrictive power tables along with case by case PSU upgrades is not without precedence. Dell had to do the same thing with the Dell Studio 1747 and Studio XPS 1645 upgrading their PSUs from 90w to 130w.

This situation has been dragging on and growing worse since Winter 2009.

Situations like this really do make you realize why class action lawsuits happen and why companies get bombarded with complaints to the BBB and similar ilk. Word of mouth is a powerful vice. Usually by the time they realize their folly, the damage has been done on many levels.

Then they look surprised when hardcore gamers go back to their roots and head home: ORIGIN PCs - Custom Built Gaming Desktops and Laptops

((Even though these are Clevo's all purdy'd up. ))

 

Electrosoft, why don't we take your documented Kill-A-Watt readings along with all the evidence gathered 'til here and ask a famous website to publish it?

Dell will quickly answer our demand if we hit them in the soft spot.

 

i agree too..all the expertise in NBR m15x thread..please collect all documented proof, picture, test, experiment you all do and publish it..all of you got evidence proofs that m15x was throttling...don't hope for dell will read this thread, yeah they have representative here however still no fix release since 2009 winter..this is the time we need to publish it..don't seemly put in NBR forum only..maybe try engadget.com..this way make dell release how serious our problem is..make they know we also have rights..

 

Hell, I'd be happy with even if I had to pay for the new PSU my self, as long as they supply a BIOS version that isn't locked at 150W.

 

That sounds like a good idea. We could always point them to this massive thread. And yeah, the 210w PSUs are on ebay for ~$48 here:

New Dell Precision M6400 AC Adapter Power Supply PA-7E - eBay (item 160461853825 end time Sep-26-10 16:33:52 PDT)

240w PSUs are a bit more expensive at $132.90 here:

New Dell Ac Adapter Precision M6400 Alienware M17x M15x - eBay (item 370419505234 end time Sep-11-10 12:38:56 PDT)

 

Isn't the A08 BIOS expected to fix throttling though? I really hope it does, because when I get my XM it'll probably throttle like hell knowing my luck... A08 should be out/tested by the time I get it though. Don't really wanna spend even more money after shelling out enough for the laptop already...

 

A08 may help, but the underline problem is the psu, it doesn't have enough power to support both the gpu and cpu going full throttle.

 

i have but the bios is still limiting the power draw to 150 watts. i get no improvement from regular psu.

 

^ This!

I'd be more than willing to shell out for a stronger adapter if the BIOS supported full power and overclocking abilities. IMO it would be a solid marketing tactic, to get people to pay for a more expensive power supply if they knew it unlocked some overclocking abilities.

 

Funny thing I noticed under full load with Riva+Throttlestop, my Bluetooth 410 card stops working.

I'm going to go ahead and pony up the $48 for a 210w PSU so I can run some more tests, see if with Riva+Throttlestop if GPU/CPU throttling is lessened and see where this thing taps out pull wise.

Plus I don't want to have my 150w PSU give up the ghost. I'm impressed it didn't yank its own cord, flip me the proverbial bird and quit after hitting 193w on KaW.

 

7 days ago I purchased this notebook from local retail store. I was so pumped up until I started playing games with it..

My system:
i7-720, GTX260m, 6GB ram, 500 SATA, Win7 64 bit ultimate...

Starcraft2 - Medium -> FPS = 6-24 ???????

I tried upgrading to the latest nividia driver given from AW support/download section and no difference were found.

I followed the instructions provided in this thread and it seems that my GPU wouldn't accept the 500/850/1250 settings no matter how many times I apply/save/reboot my system. Instead, the underclocked settings was shown(300 something/700 something/ 300 something) by CPUZ(latest version).

I double checked with GPUZ and it showed 500/850/1250..

Then I opened up rivatuner once again, the settings was showing the same numbers from CPUZ..

I am so confused ... x999999

PS. I tried both the local admin and my own account(also admin right). It's wierd that every time I opened up Rivatuner, it said the program couldn't find RiverTuner64.sys and asked me to disable Driver Signing thing. I had to Press F2 -> F8 -> Disable Driver signing before loading into Win 7 on every reboot or else the disable driver signing message would have come back.

 

Stealth mode? AC adapter plugged in?
'Cause I play SC2 on the highest settings at max res, and get 30+ at all times.

 

when you downloaded rivatuner and extracted, there was a second file, click it. this installs the signed drivers.
if that fails, try finding DSEO on google, should be the first link.

also about the speeds not sticking
* make sure high performance profile is selected
* toggle stealth mode till the spedo icon is OFF
* follow joker's configuration of rivatuner on the first page of this post

 

no Stealth mode.
AC adapter plugged in.

On the side, I also disable my bluetooth and wireless adapter as well ..

 

Yes I triple confirmed it's selected as High Performance profile and stealth mode icon is off (dimmed).

I followed the configuration of rivatuner as well ...

 

Why do that? .. nothing will change unless they allow it to work in the bios. A 210 will act like a 150w untill dell allows it. This already has been tested and confirmed by their engineers.

 

Because using Rivatuner+Throttlestop causes the system to pull more than the stock 150w PSU is rated as it fights with Dell's poor BIOS restrictions to let the components run as intended.

As a previous user noted, using Rivatuner+Throttlestop causes his PSU to trip/fail under heavy load.

As I stated earlier, Furmark+Prime95 8-thread had my Kill-A-Watt Meter peaking at 193w and my PSU smokin hot.

Outside of not wanting my 150w PSU to melt down, I also want to make sure the system is getting adequate power with Rivatuner+Throttlestop.

At worst, it continues to run as is with Rivatuner+Throttlestop but isn't overtaxing my poor 150w PSU

At best, with adequate power being provided via Throttlestop+Rivatuner, less throttling may be experienced.

Either way, if/when the day comes that Dell does the right thing and the system actually is running AS INTENDED, certain systems, under heavy load will require a better PSU as 150w isn't cutting it.

There's a reason why Dell supplies a 210w PSU as standard with the Dell Precision M6500. Go try running a 150w PSU under load w/ a Dell M6500 using a M7840 (5870 equivalent) +Extreme chip and tell me how that works out for you.......go ahead.....I'll wait.

 

hehe, touche.

We need this type of data, from a couple peeps. I will pass along all of this to the people I have been dealing with in testing. This is good stuff.

 

I remember Using GPU-Z to monitor the card, max MHz for core, mem, and shader respectively were 383/300/766. Using rivatuner to at least clock it back to normal rates(550/950/1350) but the settings would not be kept after save and system reboot..

However, the throttlestop program was ok and remained enabled at each windows startup.. But this wouldn't help when my GPU behaved like this..

 

hmmm, i now clearly remember why i snapped and replaced the 260m.
perhaps a powerdrain might help?

i remember if the clocks are around the 300/700/300 thing, it was usually an issue with one of the "power save" features not working properly.

did you manage to install the signed drivers for rivatuner?

*edit*
i snapped... not the card...

 

Try turning stealth mode on then off, then set your clocks.

 

Ok.. I will try this tonight..
Should I do this under normal win7 mode or under test mode + disable driver signing mode?

Actually, I am thinking of doing a system restore back to the first or second day I received this notebook.

 

not a bad idea
also i always run in test mode cause i hate the driver signing thingy.

dseo lets you do this (driver signature enforcement overrider) - google it, first link, oh it also lets you remove the watermarking (i used method 1 after downloading the tool it specifies)

but yeah a full system restore might just do the trick. usually just toggling stealth and power profiles makes it "unstuck" for me.

but by system restore i meant using the windows disk and reinstall... hmm not sure about restore points....

 

Probably not since every time I opened up rivatuner, it said:
->
"Cannot load Riva Tuner64.sys driver. Please ensure that this file exists in Riva Tuner's folder and your account has admin rights."

I usually clicked ok then another warning poped up:
->
"Driver Signing enforcement must be disabled in order to start Riva Tuner under Vista x64. Do you want to disable driver signing enforcement right now and reboot the system to apply the changes?"

The system rebooted but nothing was changed or applied when it returned to windows and I kept getting the same warnings when opening Rivatuner.

If I by-passed it, the rivatuner app. did open up but the section under Driver Settings on the Main tab would be dimmed and no forceware detected.

This is getting crazy and as 1 problem brings out another problem and goes on and on ......


Conclusion:
Should I try "MSI AFTERBURNER" instead? I heard it's made by the same author.

 

On a separate note, you are also wasting a lot of energy since the PSU gets way hotter than a higher rated one. My guess is that out of the 190W peak, about 15-20W are wasted due to heat.

Thats now much? Well, for me it is, I run a 10W (self built) file server at home.

 

Based on how hot it gets and the ever pleasant aroma of electronics at high heat, I agree it is bleeding some major heat.

I suspect with the 210w PSU the reading will drop due to better efficiency but that adds to the need for a better PSU with some configs.

I know in their heart Dell wants to do the right thing

Can't believe I'm going down this road again 9 months later....


To Dell/Alienware CSRs and Engineers lurking:


Q: How does Dell appease and thrill their M15x users?

A: Issue a non-restrictive BIOS that allows the GPU and CPU in your, "top of the line" 15" gaming laptop to run unrestricted and issue 210W PSUs upon request free of charge based on configuration issued.

 

yeah it's almost the same app. you may need to use dseo's option to manually sign the file or something, i can't remember what it was. i'm pretty sure if you downloaded it from guru3d you get a 7zip self extracter, inside are 2 files, the installer and a second file which you can run after installing rivatuner which installs 64bit signed drivers.

msi afterburner may work, i use it for the OSD which i find a little better than rivatuner's. you may need a workaround to get it to change clocks though, give it a shot.

 

Chances of this happening are as good as me winning the lotto.

 

Precisely.

 

you feeling lucky joker?

 

I am looking everywhere to solve this problem.

I have an ATI 5850 in my M15x. I used to have 720qm but now I switched to 920xm. I have got much better scores on WEI and 3DMark06 but when I game, I am now getting around 22-30FPS in all my games compared to 34-45 FPS I used to get on the same games. I am using throttle stop with Clock modulation and chipset modulation set to 100% and Multiplier set to 16 with throttlestop turned on. But no effect on games. My CPU temps seem to be in the 60s with the game running. Could anyone help me out on this.

 

The extra pull of the 920xm may be causing your 5850 to throttle or throttle more than normal. I think inap or Wattos commented that their 5850's are throttling when running with an extreme.

 

Im Tired Of All This Throttlinggg... Goddammit.





My slow 720 with my 5870m doesn't throttle though... but i hope byt the time i decide to upgrade to a 940, Dell gets their crap together.

All it takes is for them to allow the bios to use the 210watt power adapters, and for users to then request for one (or even pay for one.). And all would be well. But nooooooooooo

 

hahaha..one weird thing happen today..i call dell technical support on malaysia site..she said disable turbo mode in BIOS can solve frame drop during game which we were know that's are throttling problem..i pushed them to give me exchange the card or just pay for technical fees..still on hold right know..hope dell will do the exchange for free..

edit:
they want me to sent my computer technical canter for them to investigate the problem..i think i want make a wallpaper about throttling problem, put the evidence together on the wallpaper..gpu z graph, prime.. then when they turn on the computer, they will see the wallpaper about my throttling problem..

 

Believe it or not, I finally got it to work and my Starcraft 2 FPS returned to what I was expected (30 FPS under a game with 5 players in those money big map, unlimited resource..so you can imagine 1500 units fighting all at once).

Anyway, what I did was to follow all advices from you experts:

- Uninstalled riva tuner
- Downloaded the version from softmedia
- Reinstall after a clean reboot + driver signing disabled in GPO.
- Accepted update during riva tuner installation
- No installation error. No rivatuner64.sys could not be found error no more.
- Updated the GPU driver from dell's site.

Now on each reboot, my GPU does being adjusted to the clock that I want (something like 580/1400/1000).

However, when I checked my GPU temp and it only reached to 60 something, so I tried tweaking up to 620/1510/1000. Once I applied it, and clicked ok, nothing ran wrong until a minute later, the screen flashed few times, and a warning popped up at bottom right corner saying something like "the graphic driver corrupted or something and it recovered from it.. (I don't remember as it only appeared once)". I immediately down clocked back to the earlier settings and the flashes stopped.

What is this? overheat? or it had already reached the limit under stock voltage ?

 

I called the Tech. Support earlier (2 days ago). I told them the throttling problem (that guy did not understand or maybe he was focusing on something else off the phone). I asked them if they would replace me another GPU card and the tech guy said "it could not be done beacuse the GPU card on this model sticked tightly with the mobo and they could not be seperated."
He also asked me to run the AW diagose program and let them remote my system to check.

I banged up my office phone and hung up. Later that day, I received a quotation from dell by email on the 4 yrs warranty extension..

 

Do you have a NBD warranty? If yes, then do not settle for this. Most likely they will ignore any kind of wall paper. If you decide to send it in, do a full swipe of the HDD before sending it in.

They actually offered me the same solution, but I rejected it as this totally beats the point of the NBD warranty. If they cannot come up with a solution, they need at least offer you a refund

 

i thought inap didn't have throttle with the 920xm, it was when he swapped for a 940xm that the issue became apparent.

 

I never had a 5850, but will have one with my replacement. inap's problem came first with the 940XM. I dont remember exactly, but I think his machine has heavy CPU throttling. I wonder if using ThrottleStop to set the multiplier to 920XM helps anything

 

I phoned Dell on Saturday to ask them about replacing my 260m for a 5850 given the throttling problem. I was asked to call back during Monday - Friday as there was no supervisor available on weekends to authorise a decision. I found this ridiculous given the premium warranty support I took out.

Directly after the call, I emailed 2 representatives with whom I'd had previous correspondence with from a prior issue (the restarting problem when shutting down).

I got a call today where I explained the issue in great detail, the guy I spoke to told me he would need to speak to a supervisor (deja vu) and research whether my m15x is compatible with the 5850!

I was told that I will get a call Thursday to tell me the outcome. In order to prepare for their response could someone please confirm the following:-

Am I correct in thinking that even if I manage to get Dell to replace my 260m with a 5850 and provide me with a 210w PSU, that I'm still at the mercy of waiting for a change to the bios firmware to support a 210w PSU so that I can run the laptop as designed without suffering from any throttling?

Does anyone know if the expected bios update (A08) will support a 210w PSU?

i7 920
4GB RAM
260m
Windows 7 x64

PS Has Dell dropped the i7 920 for new M15X's as it's no longer listed on their website.
Should I assume my processor is a standard 920 and not a 920XM? (bought it back in October 2009).

 

Unfortunately you still need a bios update to make full use of the upped power supply. No idea if A08 will support that :?

 

hahaha..that's weird why they sent you the quotation..dell said they aware about this problem however why they provide solution that far far away from solving this throttling issue..

yea3..i have NBD..i push the customer support i had NBD why still need to sent to technical center for diagnostic..why dont do at my home..then he repeatedly tell..our technician need to major test, and investigate why your frame drops when playing games, bla bla...what's point i have NBD if need to sent it to technical center..they now put me on hold, i request for swapping to ati 5850 by paying only technical fees or FOC swapping because this throttling problem were their problem..

they don't give me any date for dell to pick up my computer same as quotation whether i got discount for swapping or need to pay full..

why need to swipe (format right) hdd?? if they call back i will said i change my mind don't want to sending in..

 

Ah, ok. I knew someone was throttling somewhere with an extreme and 5850.

 

Just tell them that the NBD warranty, guarantees you a solution on the next business day (subject to availability of parts). If they cannot find the problem remotely, that is entirely their problem. Tell them you would like to talk to the supervisor.

That is exactly what happened to me. They wanted me to send the laptop in, and I did not agree on that as it would be breaching their part of the contract. They have their own machines to test with and this throttling issue isnt an isolated case.

Well, I have no idea where Dell has a service centre, but I wouldnt be surprised if it was in India or in another low wage country. Last thing you want is for some Indian fellow getting hold of your data (e.g. email account data). That is also the reason why I always use a separate HDD then the one my laptops come in. If I have to send it in, I put in the old (unused) one to send the laptop in.

 

alright...i will tell them as soon them call me for pick up arrangement..i don't want to sending in and use NBD to push them again..i call them for gpu fan change (produce annoying sound) and plamrest (rubber lost)..i hope they can do it at my home..

your last paragraph make me scared of sending in..i don't want my data being access like that..

 

^^ backup your data to an external drive, reinstall the system by using the windows disk provided by alienware (format the drive when in the windows setup). download the drivers from the net (don't use resource disk)

check that throttling issue is still there

send it in.

i know it's a lot of work, but that way they can't complain about it being a software issue if you did a full reinstall and using latest (dell) drivers.

 

Side topic:

will you choose a 2 or 4 yrs warranty extension on this notebook today?

assume $70US a yr.