Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut vs Grizzly Kyronaut vs Arctic Silver 5

Grizzly isn't popular with laptops that do not have decent mounting pressure.

ICD masks the flaw.

 

Well, of course you do, LOL It took longer than I thought, but it was only a matter of time before it surfaced. Maybe we can add to the starting assumption that fanboys always make excuses that distract from the flaws of their favorite brand. I make no excuses for Clevo's mistakes and call public attention to them often. I am considering withdrawing all future support for the concept of "high performance" or "gaming" notebooks because of their unresolved flaws. While those flaws do pale in comparison to BGA cancer from my perspective, and I have been able to correct them using my own time and skills, I'm not willing to give them an inch of wiggle room on what they need to do better. Making excuses for them won't get the issues addressed, and that applies to Alienware as well. When they do not meet expectations, they deserve the equivalent of a financial knife to the gut, not coddling and cooing from fanboys.

This acceptance and make excuses for BGA filth mentality has caused the bar to be set so low for the entire industry that recovery will be close to impossible this late in the game. Too many of us were asleep at the wheel for too long. This is why we are surrounded by castrated trashbooks. If you think your perception of "good build quality" won't come next on the path to compromise, you're living in a dream world, dude. I view the build quality as a whole, starting first with what is on the inside representing more than 50% of the total package. Build quality has never been worse for Alienware than it is today. What they sell today is an absolute joke compared to where they were just a few years ago and it is getting progressively worse, from the inside out. We need to stop excusing lameness in any form. Now is not the time to play nice with any ODM... including Clevo. All of the ODMs deserve to see frequent and brutal manifestations of the inner asshole in all of us. They deserve nothing less than our collective rage and no fanboy forgiveness should be volunteered for their mistakes. Otherwise, they will rise no higher than the level of incompetence the Kool-Aid drinking sheeple hold them to. So, no... it is not really about what people want. It's about how much the masses are willing to put up with, and it's very sad how much some are willing to tolerate. It's even more sad because the lowest common denominators affect those that are not willing to be tolerant of the nonsense.

 

My personal experience with ICD on many machines, is that it never scratched a die for me (I just soak it in loads of Alcohol and wait before removing it) but every single time on GPUs I lost the writing on the die. I believe if you are careful you can always remove it scratch free but don't believe there is a way to remove it without losing all the writing on the die

 

Purely focusing on build quality, the new AW line has the best material choice, tolerance levels and fit and finish. Even the XPS is better built with better material choice than all of the high end gaming laptops. Then the next category in the build quality sector would be the keyboard, track pad and display panel since they are semi a part of / connected to the chassis.

Back on topic though...

AS5 should not even be in the same sentence with LM, or even Kyronaut in this case.

 

Can you specify which ICD paste did you use? ICD 7 or 24? @judal57 used ICD 24.

 

My bad then, I always use 7.

 

LOL... the 7 vs 24 is irrelevant. This represents the quantity or volume of thermal paste in a tube of IC Diamond. The compound inside of the syringe is identical product.

 

I don't believe I have ever seen the 24 in Germany.

 

Buy 4 tubes of 7 and you'll have IC Diamond 28.

 

hahahahaha i laugh so hard .... 7 or 24 only say the amount of grams it have

@Vasudev when you remove the sticker brand of the tube, you can actually see the amount of Cm3 it have. i always buy 7 grams but the last time i need more because i made more applications and gift the tube to my best friend

 

Brother @Mr. Fox once you go liquid metal, you don't go back

 

Understood and no offence intended, Thought about it last night and realized that I have potentially seen this in past. but it's been awhile
In the 70's I worked in a Photovoltaic R&D lab and had a couple of the projects I had to do involved high vacuum thin film deposition of gallium (LM) on silicon wafers.

In processing raw silicon wafers between operations they would go through a number lab grade chemical washes,at each step, ultrasonic in acetone for 1/2hour then deionising water bath and then spun dry and loaded into the vacuum chamber.

Not a clean room environment but a hundred times better than than what you do in your applications and still at the end at the end of the day there would be a pile of wafers for reprocessing due to contamination you always have some %.

Basis for rejection was de-lamination of the gallium on contaminated areas. it would would not stick if there was a residue of any kind. Surface finishes do not matter in fact a rougher surface is better for applying LM as it provides more opportunity to break the high surface tension of the LM that inhibits application spreading.

The most common adhesion problems occur with a surface contaminate obstructing contact with the surface otherwise no problem.

So your LM will not stick? likely contamination and likely no fault of your own and happens under the best of circumstances, applying thermal compound in a home environment is a gross procedure cleanliness wise and as a comparison with semiconductor industry where billions are spent annually on clean room environments to avoid this kind of de-lamination failure. Just a matter of degree

 

The harsh truth it is.
I leave my DM1 at work on my desk. And 99% of the time it gets called an Alienware. I dont even try to correct people anymore, because all i get back in response to when i tell them its a Clevo is - Cle- "What?"...
*sigh*

Same for one of my colleagues DM2 that we are currently using on set along with my DM1.

 

They have nothing in common :O

 

Glowing keyboard and sharp angles = Alienware apparently.

We really need to get the thread back on track, we are getting way too offtopic here.

 

Maybe turn off all the flashing lights? Remember Alienware is known as light organ. And I don't like lighting equipment. It's ugly Sorry, back to thermal paste

 

Id rather keep the lights on than deal with the Clevo Control Center. Actually i would rather jump off a bulding than deal with the Clevo Control Center. One other option is to bug @Prema, but i really dont want to do that , hes already topped up with my requests xD

 

Unfortunately clevos have some issues as well but id rather support companies offering socketed components and moded bioses because these are things that others have decided are not necessary. And it would seem that dell, intel, microsoft... are limiting system life, performance, battery life ect ect for their own benefit simply because the people buying these things have no idea that these issues exist. I recieved a dell as a gift and was very surprised that it had:
horrible throttling issues out the box with sub 80c temps,
Underpowered psu,
Battery drained even with 240w psu,
Locked bios with no hope of fixing anything,
Shorted out about a year after buying it and of course that means every component had to be replaced from dells golden bin of refurbished motherboards.

I hope that the pressure of educated buyers helps allieveate these issues by taking revenue from companies that decided this was acceptable and putting it in the pockets of companies still trying to cater to an experienced crowd. Its a hard battle as mainstream buyers are dumb as rocks by their own choice. But there are sophisticated gamers out there who may be considering laptops for the first time and that could help. And the fact that this forum exists is a big help to anyone wanting to know more.

 

General response to multiple posts

Fan boys will be fan boys, choose your poison or whatever paste.

In general sense I do not get get to sussed about performance numbers I have been doing this for over 20 years, I do heat sink design and have some heat sink patents, some fan patents so am not a novice in electronic cooling. When I was at 3M R&D on another project they introduced me the TIM I knew instantly I wanted to sell it, it was great in many respects a no brainer with witness/documented performance and reliability. This has been validated through many independent tests

This was because of what I know of material limitations. You can't transfer heat more than the capacity of the material. For example I have soldered sinks to test dies and also otherwise welded them directly copper to copper using pretty exotic techniques as the max performance you can get.

LM will give you the exact same performance as the above, the absolute best you can get. Of course limitations apply if you do not have great contact, performance can lag behind a paste that fills gaps.

So saying here you are at the end of the performance curve it just does not get any better wrangling over a degree or two inconsequential when mounts are so variable.

ICD is at the end of the performance curve and for the most part couple of others get close Shin Etsu makes a great paste and usually tested at a degree or so less than ICD on a desktop. Qverclockers HWBOT guys I talk to say Thermal grizzly is pretty good and on par with Shin Etsu I have not not tested it myself so offer no comment.

That being said I do not seek out review sites as in the past some requested money for a favourable review, not saying they are all shady just that it happens and I wanted no part of it knowingly or unknowingly.

“Everbody Knows” ? Lol Fact is I went to the forums and had people independently test ICD against their own compound of choice. 24 forums and about 900 independent user comparisons in all. Is what it is, not my data.



Summary of all program tests



Below here are a couple of relatively recent tests unsolicited by me
http://play3r.net/reviews/cooling/best-thermal-paste-2015-update/



And this from Tom's Hardware



I could post a dozen like as as others could conflicting charts and duel/debate merits of a degree or review quality. Yes it is True people do get different results and experience different realities who would have thought?

Most recently Kim and Sally first in the HWBOT Overclocker leagues using IC Diamond - certainly did not hurt his score



Of course equivalent factors such as long term reliability apply

 

@IC Diamond your paste perform really good, with the sacrifice of aesthetic on die.
the only poor performance here is your attitude

 

The vast majority of the thermal paste tests done on test bench or desktops are not suitable as a guide-line for laptop cooling. Worse pressure from heasink against Die/IHS + uneven heatsink quality and finish. Take for example Liquid metal vs. the best conventional thermal paste. The difference between liquid metal vs. beste ordinary paste is max 1,5C degrees difference. In reality often above 10C degrees. For desktops, another case.

 

Oh...it doesn't mean 7 carat vs 24 carat diamond? jk...

Numbers and letters can be deceiving.

7700HQ > 7700K right? Extra letter must mean it's more... Because customer service told me... Thanks Dell.

*face palm*

::iunlock::

General response to the multiple posts where you still have failed to answer my questions.

Just because people choose a superior product over the one you so happen to be a company rep of, *cough* that doesn't make them a fan boy. Choose your words carefully.

If anything, the words that you speak in trying to make claims to your product that is contrary to reality is closer to the description of what a fan boy is. Just saying... I'd be careful at your attempts of trying to put labels on people, because at the end of the day you're actually labeling yourself.

You've been doing this for over 20 years? Heat sink design? Fan patents? - I am not doubting your years in the field, but it is clear that you've also become a victim to what they call, "...conditioned blindness syndrome and complacent due to always staying within your box." i.e... You only know what they want you to know and feed you.

What you've stated about the material limitations has only validated what I was saying in the first place in my previous post.

Therefore, if ICD is being used as a gap filler to mask intolerance levels, then there will be a loss in the thermal conductivity due to the thicker medium since the rate of heat that is needing to be dissipated is greater than the thermal compounds ability to move it. Remember, we're dealing with tolerances here at the micron levels.

I do agree with you on not putting much stock into the mainstream reviews, but in this case this can go both ways, because the numbers they show for ICD seem boosted and artificial compared to real world data.

@Papusan, said it best...perhaps you should read this again,

"The vast majority of the thermal paste tests done on test bench or desktops are not suitable as a guide-line for laptop cooling. Worse pressure from heasink against Die/IHS + uneven heatsink quality and finish. Take for example Liquid metal vs. the best conventional thermal paste. The difference between liquid metal vs. beste ordinary paste is max 1,5C degrees difference. In reality often above 10C degrees. For desktops, another case."

If you've been in this field for over 20 years, then I'd expect your responses to be backed with more substance, than pulling charts from the internet that only show fresh tests which doesn't really make it very real world. Let alone when we're talking about laptop low pressure mount applications.

The real world data from the users are much more valuable than many lab tests.

Here are the unanswered questions:

1. Does ICD sponsor resellers? If so, which ones in particular?

2. Can you confirm that ICD uses synthetic lab created diamonds and not real diamonds? - You've only mentioned the word, "diamonds," but that would be very deceiving if it is not real diamonds.

3. How much of a loss, thermal conductivity wise is there with ICD due to the fillers? After all it couldn't be 1000w m/k like what a real solid diamond is so that leaves to question, with ICD containing this alleged diamond particles that are very small in size, what is the total loss here affected by the filler and binders?

I hope your 20+ of experience can provide a thorough and concise answer to these questions.

Thanks in advance.

::iunlock::

 

I use Arctic Silver Ceramique 2. Yes I see a major difference in temps whilst considering mine and @judal57 PCs. Although we have similar room temps, temp delta is way higher( I mean lower temps) in repasting with metal paste than trad. paste.
I will try to buy TG conductonaut or kyro when its cheaper at my place

 

Indeed brother @blookhawk.

But I thought lights gave me more OC potential? Darn.... Okay hopefully stickers help.

As funny as the joke is, it's the sad reality of why the true enthusiast segment is getting left ignored.

We all know that AW/Dell could do very well if they put some money into the DTR segment. Heck even if the likes of HP did it right, we'd be right on it... no brand loyalty, just give us what we want and with good thermal paste. (<--- to stay on topic. haha)

Yea brother @Prema is the man. Must respect...up most respect and we need to strive to keep his work and the supporting ODM's alive. Please Clevo, just put attention into your build quality and you could make a big dent in this overall segment.

Very well said. Kudos to you.

 

Yep thermal density is what it is all about, centimetre die will provide lager Delta Temps or a better resolution for a comparison basis on thermal compounds.

I can test a degree on the 1 inch die at 100 watts and know that on 1cm die @ 60W I will get 5-6C double the area 2-3C so your graphic is a great example , results a little compressed but not my test.

LM's are great no doubt about it

 

why @IC Diamond don't produce a liquid metal thermal paste too ???
the performance of liquid metal compounds on laptops cpu ( with exposed die) cant be match by "normal" thermal paste.
the laptop industry is growing and the heatsink design is being improved. now more laptops count with the prerequisites to apply LM

 

If so, mixing the alloys so we can use it down to 0C degrees And of course a bit less watery than what we have today. Would be perfect
But the competition is hard. We have already Coolaboratory, Phobya and Grizzly. But do it!!

 

Coincidentally I just repasted from AS5 to kryonaut. To be fair I should mention that I cleared out alot of dust from the fans in the process. Unexplainably with the AS5 I got worse performance than the stock dell stamps. I was up to 86°C on some cores during gaming. After replacing some thermal pads as well as switching to kryonaut (with the GIANT line and x method due to heatsink unevenness) Im now getting high 60s °C MAX temps. Fans are more silent as well. Still a 12°C differential between cores.

 

AS5 with full fans on or on slow fan speed curve? Because I'm using lower grade ceramique 2 and I noticed max with ceramique 2 was 83-85C peaks and avg of 65C. Arguably, kyronaut is better than AS5, ceramique 2. I wish kyronaut was available at affordable rates.

 

@IC Diamond here is the picture of the tube

my friend is going to repaste his gtx 750ti and cpu

 

Terrific! pull back the label and see the paste any oversize particles would be readily apparent tube is transparent and Post the pic- save some, PM me and you can send directly to 3M - I can even have them call you directly to make arrangements so include your phone number

 

@IC Diamond in fact intel use metals like gallium to dissipate heat, but only on his extreme processors as you can see here:

my friends were as you say, they didn't care about which thermal paste they use. but after seeing me and looking my scores at overclocking, they decided to make a try and now they always ask me before buying a thermal paste or asking for the best method to apply it.
i proved to them the importance about the thermal compounds, with numbers. i told them first, if you note temperature improvements, you will have to pay me for the repaste, if don't is for free.
using liquid metal thermal paste requieres more investment on productions process, because any issue on the heatsink will end on unfit for the repaste.
out there you can find people that dont care, people that care but dont know to much, and people that want the best of the best.
in my case, i wanted the best of the best and i tried a lot of thermal pastes
i am not going to lie you, the difference between IC diamond and liquid thermal paste is like 8°C under load
those 8 grades are gold to me, i can invest them on more overclocking
from my experience, IC diamond are the best non conductive thermal paste out there, because of 1 fact = Long lifespan
maybe TG kryonaut is 1°C better than IC diamond, but we dont know if the paste can hold the performance after a year or more. there is when IC diamond shine !!
i was one of the first people here trying Thermal Grizzly conductonaut, thanks to @Mr. Fox who was the person that guide me on this process. because we are enthusiasts in one way ore another.
before having my first alienware, i had a HP mini with an intel atom cpu, i mod the heatsink and overclocked the cpu to make gta san andreas playable, and that is the deal, i want all the performance from a machine before thinking on buying new hardware.
i can say that after 1 year of hard gaming ( every day, overclocked) TG conductonaut proved to be as good as coolaboratory liquid ultra, in terms of durability. and i found that conductonaut was 1°C better than liquid ultra. I didn't regret about changing the liquid ultra application i had, 1°C to me is a big deal too.

on the other hand, my friend is going to take more pictures of the paste, i ask him to remove the sticker to see the content of the tube

 

They use an Indium Alloy.

 

oh sorry i forgot it, indium + gallium

 

Not quite. Its Indium and then a layer of Gold on the IHS to help it with the bonding.

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

No gallium involved afa i have been able to find.

 

@bloodhawk making a research i found that indium is fused with bismuth

we cannot be 100% sure, because Intel dont show the percentage of the material

@IC Diamond look, this picture is also mine

i repasted This laptop laptop like 5 times with ic diamond to find the best method of spread. the last tube of IC diamond 24 caused the black scratch. the paste of the picture is from a tube of ic diamond 7

 

That is possible. But they will never use gallium.

 

if is cheaper, they will

 

No they wont -

Melting point: 85.58°F (29.76°C)

And for Giggles -

 

well there you go mainstream for IHS-I stand 1/2 corrected - still interface application other than IHS recommended anywhere by Intel? Commercial/retail sinks to die? with LM? Just curious as stated thermals are unmatced

 

@bloodhawk pure gallium melt at that temperature, but the alloys works far different from that.
from example look at this alloy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galinstan

 

@IC Diamond here is the picture of the paste inside the tube

 

Thank you! looks clean I would rather you not use it up on your test But send same to 3M

 

Even then there is a reason its not used in a solder mix/alloy. It will make things brittle. Not saying its not an option. Just not a practical one, specially on that scale of production.

 

@IC Diamond been reading and I enjoyed this thread. You still haven't answered @iunlock why is that?

 

I've been curious myself and that makes two of us, if not many more of us who are thinking the same.

Maybe he doesn't think I own ICD? Well... I do.

Remember these?


And this...Remember the Crest Challenge?

It cracks me up when companies get offended at their product being put up to the test.

Razer...*cough*... and many more...

This was when I was actually testing ICD as a gap filler to see what all the hype was about, hence why you see a thick layer there (for giggles) to eliminate any possibility of there being too little. - During this testing phase, on one test I've even purposely left some of the heat sink screws not tightened all the way to simulate a really bad contact between the die and HS. Results: Bad temps with ICD, regardless if it is thick or not. The outcomes were very consistent, more than enough for me to not personally choose it as my go to paste. To each his own.

For fun, not because I need to, but I'll write something with my tube of ICD if he wants.

I'll kindly ask again.

Here are the unanswered questions:

1. Does ICD sponsor resellers? If so, which ones in particular?

2. Can you confirm that ICD uses synthetic lab created diamonds and not real diamonds? - You've only mentioned the word, "diamonds," but that would be very deceiving if it is not real diamonds. Written on the tube of ICD even says the words, 24 carats...???

3. How much of a loss, thermal conductivity wise is there with ICD due to the fillers? After all it couldn't be 1000w m/k like what a real solid diamond is so that leaves to question, with ICD containing this alleged diamond particles that are very small in size, what is the total loss here affected by the filler and binders?

I hope your 20+ of experience can provide a thorough and concise answer to these questions.

 

@iunlock: Now, I know why your pictures sparkle during a tear-down. Where do you buy thermal paste from? Is it micro center or best buy or your local shop? I'm curious.

 

Haha with a fresh scent too. jk.

I buy my thermal paste online.

 

1. Does ICD sponsor resellers? If so, which ones in particular?

2. Can you confirm that ICD uses synthetic lab created diamonds and not real diamonds? - You've only mentioned the word, "diamonds," but that would be very deceiving if it is not real diamonds. Written on the tube of ICD even says the words, 24 carats...???

3. How much of a loss, thermal conductivity wise is there with ICD due to the fillers? After all it couldn't be 1000w m/k like what a real solid diamond is so that leaves to question, with ICD containing this alleged diamond particles that are very small in size, what is the total loss here affected by the filler and binders?

I hope your 20+ of experience can provide a thorough and concise answer to these questions.

1. No

2. Synthetic 92% per 3M - carat denotes/is a weight measurement= Carat is .2 gram so 7 carat tube contains 1.5 gm w/slight overfill to compensate for dispensing variations +/- 5% tolerance so dispensing is set @ +10%

3. Same as any other compound it is not a solid, powdered copper for example thermal conductivity is dependant on contact between particles so will not be 390 W/k rather some other number. You might as well ask why Arctic silver does not have a conductivity of 400W/m-k with pure silver it has number of fillers per MSDS Why anybody would be the least interested at in thermal loss from fillers is beyond me, it is a composite material like any other compound paste and pertinent specs that anybody would be interested in would be the final transference of heat of the overall composite- ie Can you tell me what the thermal conductance of the oils are in AS? why is that important? Never been a part of any engineering discussion I have had and more than a little esoteric.

 

1. Are you sure about this? So just to be clear, you're publicly stating that there are no incentives involved with resellers purchasing ICD at bulk? Hmmm okay....

2. Well perhaps you should mention that it is synthetic then, rather than just using the word, "diamond." A bit of a marketing ploy there don't you think? - That would be considered lying by not telling the full truth. - Not very nice...

3. Why is that important? Are you serious? People can see right through your salesman approach. You've just lost your credibility and it's clear that you're knowledge extends only so far in the area of real world results. This is what a lot of engineers suffer from as well, hence why we as the end users end up with flawed products.

Mod; arguing points is great for the forum, complete disrespect is not and edited accordingly.