Running Windows without anti-virus software

***New: Guide posted based on the feedback from this thread and my general experience - http://forum.notebookreview.com/sec...-use-windows-without-anti-virus-security.html ***

This thread is not for you to step up to your soapbox and tell me how important security software is.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone is running Windows XP/Vista/7 without any anti-virus or security software installed. I'm coming up on a year now without having anything installed like AVG or MS Security Essentials to prevent viruses. My only defense is the standard Windows Firewall and frequent use of Ccleaner.

I started this as an experiment, fully expecting to be inundated with loads of nasty viruses and spyware within days or weeks. Now almost a year later I am still virus free, according to a quick scan with Malwarebytes Anti-Malware and an obvious lack of virus symptoms.

I use both public and private networks, and I would estimate my bandwidth usage of both combined to be roughly 15-20GB per month. In my internet browsing I am cautious about what pages I visit, and I rarely download files from torrent sites or other suspect sources.

I realize that this can't last forever, but I'm going to keep pushing this experiment as far as I can. Does anyone else have a similar experience with their laptop? My OS is in my sig.

I hope to get some interesting feedback from this thread. If there is any or enough interest, I might throw together a guide detailing how an internet and computer savvy person can avoid viruses without using security software.

Please remember that I don't want to hear you telling me how much I am risking by running unprotected Windows. I knew what I was getting into when I started my experiment.

 

-Use SandboxIE
-Turn on Windows Defender
-Use a Limited User Account(LUA)

That should be fine

 

I've been running my W7 without an AV for quite some. I use all of W7's built-in security features, ie Applocker, DEP, SEHOP & UAC. With of-course weekly or fortnightly scans with Hitman Pro. I use the W7 Firewall Control for the W7 firewall outbound control.

 

Safe surfing definitely helps. If you were any other regular internet user, your computer would be in meltdown in no time.

I manage an office full of computers and even with pricey business security software and WSUS, viruses get caught all the time but in some instances they overpower the AV and hijack windows.

The problem with running no AV is even though your not seeing tell tale signs, there could be zombieware running stealthy on the background, stealing your information and whatnot.

You could probably get away with no AV, if you surf wisely and keep windows and software up to date.

No AV = FAST

but i wouldnt recommend it.

 

You are probably not using any USB flash drives because as much as I am confident in my "security awareness" when browsing the internet, it is inevitable that when I plug my USB drive, it always catches viruses from wherever I used it before [university terminals, friend's laptop, etc.] and thankfully my AV protects my own system from those viruses that infected my USB drive. After getting whatever files I need from my USB drive, I proceed to reformat it. Goodbye viruses.

There's this certain peace of mind issue, too. I'd go all paranoid without an AV. Plus, Microsoft Security Essentials is quite the light program.

Hopefully you can keep us posted on your little experiment and how far you plan to go and all that. Good luck.

 

Are the pubic networks you use operated by strip clubs and massage parlors? I hope you're using some kind protection!

 

I reckon the three most important steps to avoid viruses are:

1. Run as a standard non-admin user
2. Keep windows updated.
3. Use a good browser like Opera or Firefox.

I'm not in the least bit surprised if you haven't had any infections if you've done the above - and I think you should be able to click on even the dodgiest links without problems.

 

this is just plain risky in today's world

 

Thanks for the replies!

I do actually have administrative rights enabled for now, and I am a flash drive user, but there are only a handful of computers I ever plug my flash drives into. One exception would be the once or twice a year I visit a lan party and use one to pass around patches and no cd cracks.

I never use IE unless I have to, which is usually only when I have to visit Microsoft partner pages or check a web design in IE.

UAC is turned off, and I don't use Defender either. UAC just drives me up a wall so it's always the first thing to go. DEP is on, but SEHOP and Applocker aren't.

All that protects me from infection is cautious browsing through Chrome or Firefox with Adblock installed, frequent temporary file deletion, regular Windows updates, and Windows Firewall.

@flipfire: I agree, running without security should be avoided. In a corporate setting like yours the only way to stop viruses from infecting your computers is to leave them powered down 24/7, but that might cut into your productivity. My favorite things about running no security are the speed of boot times and light memory footprint while using Windows. During general use I don't usually have any more than 50 processes running, and I'd be running fewer if I didn't have Asus hotkey software installed.

@yuyi64: lol. noted and changed, although I considered leaving it for a good laugh. I'll try to stay away from Pubic Internet Terminals (PIT's) from now on.

 

I've never used AV as long as I've used Win7. UAC will stop a lot more things than people think, and if you just turn it down a level (not off) it won't bug you either. On my XP netbook, I use clamwin and the Windows Firewall and it has never had a problem either. Also, Safari is my browser of choice. It's sandboxed, so to speak.

 

With the latest windows OS, the UAC will stop a lot of bad things from happening. That was in fact the big issue with windows, to many rights given to the standard user resulted in some security flaws.

Anyway, if you are careful and have some tech knowledge it could be ok to not use anti-virus software.

To be safe you should definitely do some free periodical on-demand scans.

 

I once dabbled in the thought that i could do without anti-virus software. I thought my common sense would be fine, until i got ***** to **** by a keylogger and had to spend some serious time getting my account back.

 

I use Malewarebytes when I run into viruses on the job because it can scrub a lot in safe mode, so that's what I've been using to check periodically. The only proof I can provide of being virus free is that scan, and a lack of seeing any symptoms.
If I were to use AV Security, I'd probably use the lightweight MS Security Essentials. I don't like stuff slowing down my system.

 

Before my new laptop (I bought this laptop dec 31), I used to never run any anti-virus on my laptop (it had XP Home edition. I owned the laptop from 2005-2009). The main reason I never used one was because every time I installed one, my laptop would become so slow that it was almost unresponsive. I never got a virus on that laptop. But things are different now, and most of the new AV's have better resource management now so that's why I use one now.

 

I used to use my laptop running Windows XP and Windows 7 without any Antivirus but I used to do Antivirus scans of my system images from my Desktop on a mounted image. After realising that Antivirus does not have as much impact on my gaming performance as I first thought, I now have it installed on my laptop.

 

I use a combination of Threatfire, Zonealarm, Windows 7 FW, and Avast. I used to use Outpost firewall, which was excellent but they made the Windows 7 version paid.


Nowadays a good hacker doesn't use traditional 'viruses' that a virus program would pick up. They use vulnerabilities in web software or any application used to access the internet. Why I installed Threatfire. Not 100%, but it SUPPOSEDLY looks at heuristics / behavior... not only for known virus code such as a typical virus program would.


Despite all my precautions, IMO, a good firewall program and keeping up to date with W7 updates will usually be enough unless installing a lot of cracked software and clicking unknown links/emails/ etc...

 

Using the MVPS HOSTS file can make a massive difference. Not only does it block ads, it also puts a loopback to known malicious IP's.

I highly recommend doing this it promotes safer surfing and saves you bandwidth (ads cant load)

 

you can use peerblocker as well..

Releases ? Peerblock Site

blocks most ads and malicious ips. and also very lightweight, but why take the risk..

 

Something along those lines that I usually use but haven't setup yet is OpenDNS > Solutions > Overview
In some cases it really can speed up web browsing, reducing the time to wait for dns resolution. It also helps secure your ip address and even gives account holders fine tuning options. It can be set up either on your personal computer, so it works everywhere you go, or on your router, to propagate to any computer on your network.
Setup is incredibly simple and the whole thing is free. Gotta love free.

 

My setup may sound like that it is a bit on the paranoid side of things, but there has yet to have been a single time that any malware manages to get through. (I have been using the same setup, albeit, with a few modifications, for almost 3 years now.)

Antivirus (& Third Anti-Spyware Layer) - Avast! Home, Version 5.0.

Anti-Spyware (& Second Anti-Spyware Layer) - Spybot Search And Destroy + Tea Timer + SD Helper and Malwarebytes Anti-Malware.

Anti-Spyware Immunizer (& First Anti-Spyware Layer) - Spyware Blaster W/O Auto-Updating.

Firewall (& Fourth Anti-Spyware Layer) - Comodo Firewall Professional W/ Firewall & Defense + enabled at Safe Mode. (Passed all of Shields Up!'s Tests with TruStealth Rating.)

Router Firewall - D-Link DIR-655 Extreme N Wireless Router Firewall.

Specialized Tools - HiJack This!, F-Secure Blacklight.

Tweaking - CCleaner, TuneUp Utillities 2010, Defraggler.

Overwatch - ProceXP.

Web Browser - Firefox 3.6.9 (W/ NoScript, McAfee Site Advisor, AdBlock Plus & Avast!'s Auto Downloads-Scanning), Firebug, FoxyProxy.

Operating System - Tweaked Windows 7 Ultimate 64-Bit.

Processor - Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 @ 2.67 GHz; EM64T, Hardware D.E.P and Hardware Virtualization are enabled.

 

All I do is run MS security essentials & keep the OS updated, avoid IE like the plague (use firefox as my preferred) ensure the firewall in win 7 is enabled.

Find MS to be 100% fantastic (never thought I would ever admit MS antivirus would ever be any good but there u go).

Clearly I don't open emails with links from some one trying to sell me services!!! or promise photo's - really its just common sense.

Also win 7 has far fewer vulnerabilities than XP which was really an open book for virus writers. Most people I deal with have been infected by malware - always clicking yes to install any darn toolbar they find and then complain that their system is slow. Everyone who uses this forums really have a common sense approach and in most cases experience - heck I remember back in 2000 getting the virus which would shut down the computer just by connecting to the internet, that was how vulnerable XP really was. Now it's all about contaminated websites which try and inject script into browsers etc or contaminated pdf files promising naked women. yes we men are dumb!!!!

 

An impressive fortress to be reckoned with! Your setup must be the
antithesis to mine. I'm glad you've found something that works for you.

Yes we are, but we don't have to stay dumb. I really feel that common sense can go a long way against spam, spyware and other malware. As for IE, I just downloaded the IE 9 beta 1. I'll have to take it for a test drive on some shady lanes of the web. Microsoft is boasting better security. We'll see. There's not much securing my system so if IE lets anything slip, I think it could infect pretty easily. Not that I want to deal with cleaning off a virus right now, but most if not all of my sensitive files are stored on another computer, so this one is ok to have a virus on.

Anybody else going to install the IE 9 Beta? Does it seem more secure? Less? Compared to what?

If you are one of the other people not running security measures on your system, do you think there could be a standard set up for Windows 7 that allows for a light processor and memory footprint and isn't entirely vulnerable at the same time?

Can someone tell me a website that is known to infect with spyware so I can test IE and other browsers? I mean besides Facebook and Twitter. Or maybe you could tell me of a website that does security checks and rates the vulnerability of an operating system. I'm thinking about taking this thread to the next level.

 

Good topic OP. I myself try to get away with as little as possible (Avast 5 Free) but as others have mentioned even safe surfing can lead to trouble. Today I went to my Hotmail account and while viewing the Inbox I get an alert that scare-ware wants to scan my computer for viruses.

For me one of the easier ways to circumvent all of this as someone else mentioned is to use Firefox and run the NoScript app or just turn off Javascript.

 

Your very daring OP! : )
Nearly a year later and virus free, that's a good thing!

As for IE9 Beta, I just installed it today and am playing around with it a bit. I still think it's pretty secure, but I am running MSE in the background w/Windows Firewall.

I also like this topic, please continue to keep this updated!

Cin...

 

If you run everything in a sandbox or a true VM, it's very easy to get away with no AV. Safe surfing and avoiding unknown flash drives end up being the most important means of stopping viruses, although I'm waiting for another Sasser to drop that will infect me simply by being on the internet.

 

Running a system without an AV is like going into battle with no armor on and then complaining when your dead at the first bullet shot atcha

With today's high end system specs, you don't even feel a lag when you are running an antivirus program especially if it was lightweight and efficient like NOD32

You don't need an antivirus coz you're a ' retard! period

 

Like Cin', my Win 7 Pro 64-bit machine has MSE and the Windows firewall. I also use an updated MalawareBytes from time to time and I keep the machine updated at all times. Thus far, no virus problems.

But I do see at my workplace people working with infected machines. I just wonder to what sites do the people at my work-place visit to get these viruses!!! As I see it, the worst situation is when people swap usb drives, which are invariably infected. I do not share my laptop with anyone (including my better-half!) and I do not use USB sticks from others on my machine.

Earlier I used to use Avira (the free version), but found that MSE has a smaller footprint. So when i got my current laptop, I went with MSE. On my previous laptop which has Vista SP2 on it, I still have Avira and - as a firewall - I use Comodo. Nowadays, I have a specific use for this machine. I use it to scan files from usb sticks and from downloads before moving them to my Win 7 machine. The Vista machine goes online to update itself and the AV program and when I need to download something. Thankfully, I have not been hit with a virus, though scans of USB drives have identified them intermittently, which I have then deleted.

Recently, however, I am thinking of replacing this Vista machine with a netbook and using the bigger laptop as a guest machine at home.

The idea of NOT having even the semblance of AV protection, however, never really crossed my mind. I think the OP and others who deliberately don't use AV programs are very brave indeed!

Edit: The only reason I am not trying out IE9 is because I understand that it deletes IE8 - a prospect that I do not relish given that I use IE8 (Chrome) all the time. But from all that I am reading about IE9, it looks like it should a very good browser when it is finally released. But then again, who knows!

 

Well I am either very brave for not using AV or very stupid! One day we will find out.

Since my last post I have tried out IE9 a little more. There is a security test at Browser Security Test that looks for vulnerabilities in your browser. With a fresh install of IE9 beta 1 64-bit running the new 64-bit flash square beta, I passed a security check (Congratulations! The test has found no vulnerabilities in your browser!). However, there might have been some user input that factors in. I noticed an activeX pop-up that I did not allow access to, but I assume if I had it would have failed the security check.

@Cin': That is a hilarious avatar! I'll definitely keep updating, and sometime soon I think I'll do a bit of a guide for running without AV combining ideas I've gotten from this thread. Before I do though I'll run a Malwarebytes scan just to be sure I'm still virus free

To people who avoid foreign flash drives, do you ever share your own flash drives? I frequently use my own to work on client's computers so there is a chance for them to get infected, but they are all clean. Would a flash drive encryption program help stave off viruses? TrueCrypt was what I had in mind.

I agree that sandboxing or running a virtual machine is very secure, but my original goal in not using AV was to run a very clean, fast machine with only as few programs and files as I need. Like I mentioned before most of my files are on another computer and an external, except for a few files I am working on at the moment. But If my laptop got wiped out or I was hacked today, I would have absolutely no problem running DBAN within the hour. The result is a hard drive that runs at 25% capacity with all my necessary games and programs installed, and less than 45 processes running on boot-up.

I know I could run fewer processes, but I like Windows Search and I need the firewall active as well Plus Asus loads several programs just to get the keyboard shortcuts to work, which is very annoying.

 

From network security standpoint, how much slower the antivirus is going to slow down your machine? I think it is hardly slow down your machine with the spec you have. If you don't have antivirus, how do you know that you haven't been compromised? If you have keylogger on your system, you won't even know without antivirus.

The processes inside the OS don't mean everything. Either Vista or 7 has a lot of processes run in the background anyway. If you connect your computer to network that has NAC, you can't evenget into the network. It is kind of wreckless to run Windows without antivirus unless your computer has absolutely no connection to internet or controlled environment.

 

I have been doing this since Windows 2000, so I am getting close to ten years now. No virus infections, ever, and on the plus side, my machines are fast and stable. Of course, you need to run your machine in a secure configuration, and use common sense. If you have the need to install those "InstallMeImaVirus.scr" screensavers whenever and wherever they are offered to you, then there's nothing that can help you...

 

That's not possible. Unless you have set your computer to autoatically run whatever that Flash drive offers, plugging it in cannot hurt you, ever. In your case, all that happens is that your AV software scans the drive on plugin, and alerts your to the presence of viral software. However, the fact that there is such software on the drive won't hurt you one bit.

It may be worth emphasizing the following simple truth: On a properly patched and updated Windows system running in its secure default configuration, the only way to get a virus is to install it. It's as simple as that, despite all of those scary fairy tales about how viruses infect systems "without the user doing anything", or "by just browsing the web".

 

Those are all mistakes. Well, IE may be a matter of taste, but there's nothing wrong with it. You should always log in as a standard user, and you should have UAC turned on. If it "drives you up the wall", then there is something wrong with the way you use your computer. I have UAC set to its highest setting, and I never, ever, see a prompt.

 

Considering the power of today's processors and systems, I see no reason to worry about the impact of running Antivirus software. I used to think it would slow down my gaming laptop but before and after install I notice absolutely no difference. It is very easy to underestimate the power of our systems or to overestimate the impact of running Antivirus software like I used to.

Even the safest Drivers wear seat-belts.

 

Yeah! Me neither - never yet seen a prompt from UAC.

 

I run Win7 with UAC off, defender off, updates on. All my web browsing is through Firefox with NoScript. Havn't had a virus since XP(2+ years).

 

How do you know that you don't have virus since you don't have anything to tell you if you have gotten one? How do you know if your machine is being compromised then? Just curious.

 

It's really interesting to see how many differences there are in the way people use Windows. I guess if anything this just proves that there is no exact method or standard of use that can help every user avoid viruses. In other words, to each his own. Maybe I can stay away from viruses with my method, but it might not work for my grandparents or my cousin from Texas, for example. Some people may need tighter security, some might not need as much.

I suppose that's the reason Microsoft made UAC adjustable in Windows 7 in the first place. While you may not get prompts in your daily use, I find it very annoying since every time I want to update a program like Ccleaner or Glary utilities, UAC asks me if I want to continue or cancel. Well, UAC, if I didn't want to perform that action, I wouldn't have opened the executable in the first place thank you very much.

It's the same annoyance as exiting a game. I click "Exit Game," and the game asks, "Are you sure?" I prefer not to be doubted by anyone, and coming from a man-made machine it is just as or more annoying. So you may say I'm not running a secure environment, but my conscience provides all the User Account Control I need. Every action I perform in my Operating System is on purpose. I always accept the consequences of my actions in Windows. That is why I don't need UAC.

I also agree with those saying that security measures don't affect performance of today's modern platforms. I've said from the beginning of this thread that my purpose began as an experiment. I'm not obligating you to try the same thing. If anything this is the best test of what Microsoft keeps trying to sell Windows 7 on, better security than previous Operating Systems.

Really the only reason I have such little security and as few running programs as possible is that I love how clean the interface looks this way. I organize my laptop much like I organize my desk. Everything has a place and the working surface stays clean. I could just as easily have a cluttered space and a messy user interface, but this how my brain can most easily organize things.

I really do think that my performance is increased because of my micro-management, but the increase might be so slight it can't be noticed. Only extensive testing with similar systems could ever tell. I also realize that my gaming performance is in no way improved. But that has never been my goal in reducing security measures on my system.

 

Can't speak for nikeseven, but I just did a Malwarebytes Anti-Malware fresh install, update and scan, which revealed that no objects on my system are infected. I subsequently uninstalled the program. Can't leave any AV software running or the experiment is invalid.

 

If you just go to Yahoo.com, MSN.com or ESPN.com, you don't need any antivirus software for the rest of your life. Come on, you know that most of the users do more than that. Am I right?

I can have backup server runs without antivirus all year because it doesn't go anywhere on the network beside one destination. Well, let me know how it goes. I am curious as well that how long you would last without antivirus software. For me, I just don't take chance to save one process on the OS.

 

I monitor resource usage, network usage, startup programs, etc. Anything browsing of less than safe sites, or those who utilize possibly dangerous flash ad's are blocked via NoScript. I've run Malwarebytes if I sense a system slowdown of any type, but I haven't found anything beyond some tracking cookies for atleast 6 months.

 

I have 6 antivirus installed in my computer but only one running at anytime
the others free antivirus scanner have been disabled via msconfig
Paid : Gdata
Free : clamwin, MBAM, eset scanner, housecall, antivir
like some people I don't see any significant decrease in performance when running an antivirus in a 6 months old laptop
I even scanned my computer with those 6 antivirus scanner running at the same time and barely reached 90% cpu load
I found 3 malware recently in my laptop MBAM found one and clamwin the other 2. I didn't notice any slow down at that time. Without an antivirus I would have probably missed them

 

Just because an anti virus says something is a virus, doesn't mean it is.

 

I've had false positives a lot with AVG on other computers now that you mention that. I know other programs have issues with that too. I guess that must be why erig007 has several different programs, for cross checking files in different programs.

@erig: if you don't notice a difference in performance, then you have no reason to change your setup. As I've said before, there just isn't a single method to keeping viruses off your computer. Before you say, well you could keep it offline, well there are still ways, it would just be harder and completely unlikely. I respect that you have your own method and I believe it probably works well for you. But I do think you would receive a performance benefit from having only one security program to serve all your anti-virus needs. From my experience, the more applications you have installed and clogging up your registry, the slower your boot times and application load times will be. General system performance can take a hit from that.
Some that I've talked to might also say that running frequent or several scans can reduce the longevity of your hard drive.
Still, I'm sure you are comfortable with your security standards and system setup just as I am with mine, and I would never try to dissuade you from that (unless you hired me as your security consultant )

 

I'm aware of false positives that's why I doubled check with virustotal and jotti's

Thanks for the info micmac
good to have some input

I agree with you micmac regarding the drawbacks of my solution
but I think that no antivirus is 100% safe that why I cross check with several ones (that becomes obvious when using virustotal or jotti's)
I prefer to have a peace of mind everyday before failure knowing that there are good chances that I don't have a malware and have a failure one day of a component that I will change rather than using only one antivirus and not having a peace of mind
my hard drive being an Intel X25E ssd I already know that I will have to change it sooner than later
I feel pretty much happy with my solution
Thanks anyway

 

That's a lot!

ClamWin found 2 malware 'samples' that all others have missed? Any idea what kind of malware it was?

While I agree that not one anti-virus/malware program can detect everything, your setup requires a lot of maintenance.
Why not use one AV (like free Avast, Avira or MSE) complemented with MBAM and Hitman Pro3 for on-demand scans.

Hitman Pro3 uses combined detection from Emsisoft (2 detection engines; Ikarus also), Prevx, GDATA (2 engines; Avast+BitDefender) and Dr. Web.
That's 6 different detection engines combined.

Avira/MSE + MBAM + HitmanPro = Only 3 programs without any chance of conflicts.
And...8 different engines in total.
Way less hassle regarding program & signature updates.
And yeah, all for free.
It's a win-win-win-win option.
cheers

Edit; I'm aware this post is way off-topic regarding the topic-title

 

you're right that a lot but it's not so much hassle when I use them only once a month or 2
(and even disabled I still can use them easily to scan my computer)

regarding the malwares detected I think one was a win 32 something

regarding your solutions
I wanted to combine with something strong in 0day threats like antivir because shadowserver find Gdata pretty weak in 0day threats under linux

all this to say that without an antivirus software it's sometimes hard to notice a malware especially with current powerful laptops
unfortunately it is not a lot better with one antivirus installed nor 2 or 3
where the limit is depends on each one

 

I'm still thinking about doing a guide for running without anti-virus software. If I do it will be a new thread, but I'll take suggestions mostly from here to add to what I have currently.

 

NoScript + Not downloading risky things.

 

It's like running your car without brakes. Yeah you can slow with engine and gearing, but sooner or later you'll hit something. Maybe you're ok with that.

 

Relying on antivirus alone will never be enough but add a generic behavior monitor to that mix and you increase security ten fold. Consider that every single maleware has to do some kind of action which is when the behaviour monitor is likely to catch something antivirus missed.