*** XMG Apex 15 with Ryzen 3950X / Clevo NH58AF1 Owner's Lounge ***

That does sound like a bad flash or file.

 

Thank you for the help!
I tried everything again except I pressed f7 instead of f2 and was able to get to the boot screen and load from the USB. I started with the EC thinking I should repeat the whole process and it seemed to fine. I was able boot all the way to windows. The version number was the old BIOS still so went back to the boot screen to flash the BIOS since it seemed the original flash didn't happen or went badly but then I'm back to black screen again. Tried removing CMOS, etc as you described and just black screen. Cycled a few times to be sure and then left the black screen and blue keyboard for a good while thinking maybe it just was slow but no luck. Came back from the store and the bank to still find black screen

This stuff is complicated. LOL

 

I actually wrote that reply many hours ago, not sure why it was floating in ether....

In desperation I went to best buy and bought a cheap 8gb SODIMM and put it in place of my shiny fast memory...the thing booted fine like nothing happened. So apparently the older EC and bios worked with my old memory but wasn't stable and now it doesn't work AT ALL. I'm relieved I have it working but disappointed to be back to the drawing board on trying to run 64GB at 3200mhz on this beast.

I'll be returning the 64GB to Amazon and hobbling along on 8GB until I figure out what memory will actually work. If someone can point me to a source I would be grateful.

Also and important note: Thank you to everyone here. I would have given up and thought I had bricked my laptop for good without all the advice and suggestions here. Thank you.

 

So it WAS the RAM after all! In my long post I think I related the weird problems I had early on with RAM I was 100% SURE was fine so I'm glad you tried that before giving up. I know others are also having trouble with 64GB while others don't with the exact same sticks, so maybe it was your RAM is bad, maybe you have a weak memory controller, maybe your existing 64GB of RAM will work if you can ever get the BIOS installed. On that last point and following up on @Meaker@Sager 's comment, new RAM may obviate the need but before you try flashing again download a new fresh copy just in case. Thanks for the update and let us know how your quest for 64GB turns out!

 

Been stress testing and benchmarking...seems fine.

I even did some over locking and got a 6524 on Cinebench 20....not as good as the >7200 I was getting with the big fast RAM but still nice.

I'm going to wait to try Resolve again since it won't really run on 8gb.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...2g32c16s4b_ballistix_64gb_32x2_3200_cl16.html

I ordered this memory for my system. It's working for me but I've only had my system since Monday and I haven't had a chance to memtest it yet. I'll see if I can memtest it this weekend and let you know if it passes or not.

 

I thought 1.35v memory was an issue

 

Can anyone confirm the Ballistix 1.35v memory is OK for this system with current BIOS?

 

If you are at all unsure about stability it can be very dangerous to flash.

 

Flashed to the latest XMG BIOS and everything seems stable. The tuning options in the new bios seem kind of silly. it defaults to 3600mhz CPU. I can jump to 3,900 and it's fine. The next option 4,200 is too much and I crash. Will likely re-install Ryzen Master later after I have figured out my memory and feel confident things are running smoothly.

 

IIRC others reported that it ran at it's JEDEC timings for 1.2v at DDR4-2666 stable. The XMP profiles at 1.35v are not used but maybe using Ryzen Master one could force it to operate close to the specified XMP frequencies, or at least DDR4-3200 CL22 @ 1.2v to boost infinity fabric clocks.

 

Seems a bit too speculative for me. Hoping someone has some solid answers.

Not touching memory timings in Ryzenmaster again if I can help it. I just want some 3200mhz RAM to run at 3200mhz and be stable.

 

Ok, so I did get my Clevo NH58AC this week. Everything works well, this one didn't come with Clevo control software but I really don't love that package anyway. I found a Github program that's working a little better with fan control. Much of the time I use Fn + 1 to run the fans at full speed anyway, definitely when gaming but this processor lives around 70C and that's a bit hotter than I want when I'm not asking much from it. With fans at max I see temps in the 50s C, 20 degrees less than when using the automatic fan control software, which is already adjusted to give better cooling than stock settings.

Like others have said, the noise from the fans is just as extreme as the processors performance. When I have time I try researching better ways of cooling laptops but good information is rare. It seems that liquid cooling notebooks is impractical and filled with failed experiments from what I can find. Asus experiment with their ROG laptop with liquid cooling seems to have been a one off costing over $4000. Options that actually move more air through a laptop chassis are almost as rare. It seems to me that this is DIY territory almost exclusively, but with this laptop I already know that it's an area that I am going to explore. I'm just putting it off for as long as possible, lol.

Performance is excellent. The more that you ask of the processor the better it performs. I'm sure you could lower temps by changing processor power settings, but I'm not going to limit my processor. The whole point for me buying this laptop was for the best possible processing power.

 

One very important point that I meant to make is with the AC adapter. A small and nice looking 180W 19.5V Chicony is shipped, but mine did not handle the demands of the laptop. The first time I played a game on the laptop, not even a state of the art or recent game but Skyrim on default recommended GTX 1660Ti settings, the machine shut itself down after 45 minutes of play. When I investigated I found the AC adapter too hot to touch and smelling of burnt circuitry. An hour later it was still painfully hot to the touch. I wrapped it up in a ball and put it in a junk drawer, ordered a monstrously large 240W 19.5 V alternative meant for a Dell Alienware machine, and used my old Clevo brick in the meantime. That worked better and cooler than the supplied adapter, and the Dell brick is working correctly, remaining below pain thresholds even under long term gaming sessions.

 

I modified my back cover to add fans, which works well if you don't mind bulk.

If you read through the many pages here you will find a lot of interest in undervolting by people wanting quieter fans.

I'm mostly interested in max performance even if it's loud and yet I've still found mild undervolting to be a good thing. The processor runs cooler and boosts more freely within the wattage limit and therefore gives overall better benchmarks and performance on less juice.

 

I'll start browsing through them. I bought the laptop for performance but I find it alarming that it idles at 15 degrees C higher than a normal laptop or desktop so a little undervolting at idle load is called for. I would like it if I didn't burn the processor and other components up before their time Thanks!

 

The desktop chips have a much higher idle power consumption.

 

Size is not an issue, right now my university is offering all of my classes as online and I graduate in December. It wouldn't be fun for me to sit in a coffeeshop with this kind of fan noise, anyway. This laptop isn't leaving my house very often at least until I get a job next year and probably not very often even then. I have several other laptops (I have a wife and two kids, with things as they are the kids are distance learning too.) and one in particular is easily portable and reasonably powerful.

So why didn't I just get a desktop? There are times when I need my laptop in a class and our computer lab machines aren't the best. For security, they delete all downloaded files every time they're restarted and even non-OS updates are deleted daily (so Java is constantly complaining of it's need to be updated, etc.) Each time you sign in to a new machine you have to setup your software operating environment from scratch, and I don't have that kind of spare time. I didn't know for sure that classes would be online exclusively until this week. I also decided that I would be in a better situation once I started work and would be able to get any number of desktop computers at that time.

Being cooler would be the priority over appearance and portability right now. My computer is venting from the left rear (CPU) and from the right side (GPU.) With bottom clearance for air to enter it seems that fitting the vents to enclosed air channels fitted with fans that pull could help increase the volume of air through the laptop. With a little throught both vents could be made to meet and terminate at a large desk fan, at least it seems to me a feasible enough setup. The connections to the vents and fan would be the most difficult to construct, in my mind I see something not unlike the air intake and turbo housing in my car. Smaller and more contained, definitely, but sharing a lot of similar ideas, too. They do both address the same issue, after all, which is increasing the flow of air through a set system volume.

 

The infinity fabric and chipset take their toll, the fans have to run basically, it's the reason for the battery life too.

 

Yes, That all makes sense and you're right. I want to keep things as cool as I can, and 70C makes me nervous, though I expect temps above that during heavy use. I am very happy with my laptop, I just wanted to be honest and realistic.

Also, it's only fair to note that I bought mine from another supplier. I don't know if mine is better, worse, or the same as yours. I'm making the assumption that they're basically the same, but this might not be true.

I would have liked hearing about the adapter before buying mine and I wonder if that's something that others have noticed. I would have still gotten the same laptop, but I would have also ordered a better adapter ahead of time. I was lucky and no damage was done, likely there are safeguards in place that detect this kind of problem and shut the system down once detected.

It seems like it might potentially be a common problem, having a 180W adapter with such a demanding processor. I'm definitely happier with the 240W adapter instead even with it being significantly larger and less cute, and it actually costs less than another Chicony (when I was repairing the outer cord sheath on my first Clevo adapter I knew that I would never buy a Chicony branded adapter on purpose.) My old Chicony with my previous Clevo has been OK, and while the outer wire sheath is of poor quality the adapter itself is solid.

If anyone decides to replace and upgrade ac adapters you should also be sure to get a good quality plug convertor because most likely you aren't going to find one that fits this laptop without it. Both of my Clevo laptops have 5.5 x 2.5mm power input and the adapter I found has a 7.4 x 5mm input plug. To use it I needed to have an adapter to fit the cord and the laptop input. This is your power supply and it's pretty important, so shop carefully.

Also, voltage output must be the same (mine was 19.5V) or at least within 10% (in my case 19.5V +- 10% means 17.55 to 21.45V) and wattage should be at least as high, preferably higher than your original. If that doesn't make sense, then be sure to get something with the same voltage output as your OEM adapter and a higher amp output. This will give a higher rating in watts, as voltage x amps = watts.

A chicony adapter, when new and not refurbished, tends to be $80 to $100. I have no trouble finding adapters of better quality for $50. This is probably due to market forces, far more people buy HP, Dell, etc. branded computers than Clevo, so their accessories are more varied and to survive companies making them are more competitive. At least that's my opinion on why these things are the way they are.

 

What is infinity fabric? Is this the communication between CPU and GPU? Sorry, that's a little too technical for me. I guess it's another reason for power use and heat production.

 

FWIW, if noise is a priority, on heavily multi-threaded workloads even with a heavy undervolt and underclock this machine can run silently and coolly while still spanking the other mobile processors with 8-10 cores.

There's a happy balance between noise and computing power, and undervolting is your best friend here regardless of your use case.

 

Thanks for posting this, because of what you say here I started looking into undervolting and found a great deal of good information. Temperatures can be reduced by 15C without actually reducing performance, and in most real world scenarios you can probably get better performance with undervolting.

 

Yes, you're completely right. You're an absolute hero. Ten minutes of messing around and I have temps at 50-54C without ramping fans up to get there. Before undervolting I was never below 60 and hovered around 70 way too much for my comfort. Excellent results, thanks again! No noticable change in performance either.

 

See this post and the few before it for the discussion on the Ballistix RAM. Although I would try the Crucial branded CT2K32G4SFD832A which has JEDEC DDR4-3200 CL22 timings if you do not want to hassle with Ryzen Master.

 

The first memory I tried was Crucial. The 3200 CL22 doesn't work at 64GB, only at 32.

 

Hmmm. In that case maybe contact either RJTech or Eluktronics and see if they will sell the qualified memory for this machine as spare parts. They both have 64GB DDR4-3200 configurable options, so in theory they have the memory on hand. If you can find Samsung M471A4G43AB1-CWE it should work fine too as that is what XMG uses for the Apex 15.

 

Thank you for the part number!
I was able to Google search and just ordered that exact Samsung RAM from memory.net.

Interesting when you filter to "shopping" they don't show up and none of the other vendors who show up seem to have the exact part number. Before I kept getting directed to sketchy eBay vendors who have a disclaimer saying you don't get that exact model number.

Now I'll know for sure...if it doesn't work then I'll know there is a problem with my motherboard.

 

Due to MyHandsAreBurning heroic comments (my opinion ) I've been undervolting. Results were satisfying, temps dropped by 10 - 15C for general use of the laptop. With my original settings, something like 1.0125V and 3900Mhz, an issue was created with streaming videos where they would go further out of sync (video and audio) over time. Experimenting allowed 1.0375V and 4000Mhz, which still left vids out of sync after the 5 minute mark.

Back to the drawing board, hopefully I can find a level of settings to keep temps down and also allow me to watch streaming vids.

 

At 1.1V and 4100Mhz it seems that video sync is acceptable at least to the 5 minute point. Temps are at 55C for light use/idle, which is still 10 degrees better than original. If vids prove to stay in sync I'll be ok with these settings. If not, I'll probably have a setting saved to use when watching youtube. Any higher temps at idle kind of make undervolting pointless.

 

Having moved to a chiplet design AMD had to come up with a way to interconnect everything. It's really the magic that lets them do it without totally murdering latency.

It can handle all sorts of interconnects, the I/O die and the core die/s are connected via this as are the two CCX clusters of 4 cores in an 8 core die (It can be both within the silicon and out to other silicon).

The CPU still has traditional PCI-E that does your GPU connection, it's more to get your memory data from your ram from the I/O die to the CPU that requested it, or a core on one CCX getting data in the cache of a core on a different CCX.

Why does this matter to power? It's a pretty amazing and efficient bus but transferring a lot of data has a power penalty. On a desktop scale it's not the end of the world so the focus was on speed rather than efficiency.

Now the newer mobile APUs still use infinity fabric. However with a focus on power consumption if not needed the infinity fabric can be clocked down (and does not need to do die to die transfers which are more power hungry) a lot which really helps when the CPU is idle get the power down.

It's easier when dealing with a single die to regulate this but I expect the desktop platforms to get this eventually.

So the desktops will be stuck with a higher idle power as the infinity fabric basically stays ramped all the time.

Hope this helps.

 

I expect that it will help in understanding the CPU and GPU better, though I can't be sure that will help manage it better it probably should. Too often we see information like this as illuminating after a failure, though, to be honest, which is why experience is still so important

Thanks for taking time to explain it, through the past few days information found here has helped manage this new laptop almost as well as I would like.

I can't quite get the GitHub fan control software to consistently do what I want it to do. I'm sure it will do it properly if I actually understood how Windows configures laptop fans. I'm thinking more and more of paying the $20 or $30 for the paid fan control software offered by one of the Clevo vendor's that I didn't buy from.

I had the software working with the original hotter running setup, but since undetvolting and dropping temps I haven't gotten it to kick back in to controlling the fans with new settings.

 

I'm not sure if anyone is interested, but thought that my journey might help others who get a similar laptop.

I found by accident that sound from streaming videos was rythmicaly interrupted, giving a slight skip or pop effect. Checking the Ryzen CPU software while also watching a video, I noticed the skip occurred in time with speed and temp updates in the software. Upon closing the Ryzen Manager, the issue disappeared and videos stay synced with audio.

 

I ran through a memtest86 over the weekend and it found errors on tests 5/6/7 during pass 2 and 4. What's odd is I haven't crashed at all on the system. Even after a few long gaming sessions. I ordered replacement memory that should be here Tuesday.

 

Yeah polling the BIOS/firmware will send interrupts not ideal for content creation. It can also impact power consumption.

 

Makes sense...
So with RyzenMaster can the settings be set and then the program closed and the boost and undervolting will remain?

 

Not used it really but I would think so.

 

1usmus Unveils ClockTuner Performance Boosting Utility For AMD Ryzen 3000 CPUs, Also Improves Efficiency of Each CCX

1usmus is renowned for his work on the DRAM Calculator for Ryzen and now expanding beyond his capabilities beyond that. The latest of his Ryzen tuning tools is known as CTR or ClockTuner for Ryzen. The tuning utility has been designed to increase the performance of Zen 2 based processors that include both Ryzen 3000 and 3rd Gen Ryzen Threadripper CPUs without increasing the power consumption.

 

Will 1usmus's programs even work on a laptop?

 

I don't think the laptop form factor is a problem, but the BIOS (why you do this Clevo) might be.

 

It depends how the program hooks in.

 

Ugh I'm starting to get frustrated with my system for sure. My memory came in: G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 64GB (2 x 32GB) 260-Pin DDR4 SO-DIMM DDR4 2666 (PC4 21300) Laptop Memory Model F4-2666C18D-64GRS. Since my Ballistic 1.35v memory was failing a memtest I figured I'd play it safe and get a 1.2v 64GB kit just ensure stability. I was also hoping that with the 1.2v memory it would let me undervolt my 3950x a bit more because I can't even get remotely close to what others are getting in this forum. So I've been constantly battling heat issues since I got the laptop last Monday.

Anyways, I pop the memory in and the thing doesn't even boot. It get stuck on loading Windows and just reboots over and over until it just hangs/locks up. I really don't feel like playing the memory game and returning it for a different manufacture. I'm doing a memtest on the new memory now. I have no doubts it will pass but it's still cranking. Any suggestions on what I can do to get the memory to work? So far I've removed the cmos battery and held the power button down to power cycle it but no go. I can pop the 1.35v memory in and it boots fine.

 

Few people are running a 3950x. I have a 3900x. A lot of people are running even lower end chips because their single core performance is just as good or better and most tinkerer's are gamers.

With 32gb of single channel 3200mhz memory I was able to get well over 7200 on Cinebench 20 so that's good enough for me.

I don't think you'll get the 3950x to run full clock speeds AND be cool without a bunch of extra cooling.

 

It appears that Aftershock imposed a hard limit of 91C or so on my machine before it performs a thermal shutdown. Unless I work in cooler ambient temperatures, 3.85Ghz on the 3950x is about the maximum I can sustain through a Cinebench run with stock cooling in a 28-33C room. I reverted my undervolt on the SOC/VDDP/VDDG in hopes of stability gain but to little avail, it seems.

With regards to RAM, they do not sell the apex with a 64gb ram configuration but I just dropped them a mail asking about available options.

 

Yes, the settings remain after closing Ryzenmaster. I decided in the end to use a middle ground of 4000 MHz and 1,08somethingV because temps are so much better there. Closing the program retains benefits in temps. I only need to ramp fans up at startup for a couple minutes and when performing processes across huge databases in Tableau or gaming. It's funny, now when working in Visual studio with professors my machine finishes everything instantly and their desktop is taking 10 seconds to complete a step and update to the screen. A very impressive laptop, for sure.

 

I may be repeating myself here, but has anyone else had any issues with the Chicony AC adapter? I thought it looked great, being so small compared to my last one, and then it got so hot my laptop shutdown after 45 minutes of Skyrim, not a game that's particularly taxing on this laptop even with my GTX 1660Ti where many of you have the 2060, I believe.

The adapter was literally smoking hot, too hot to touch. I unplugged it and used my old 200W adapter until Amazon delivered a 240W I got to replace it, which has worked great (same output V, 19.5) This has me wondering why Clevo would pair an inappropriate adapter, but I haven't heard anything about it from anyone else.

That surprises me because my old laptop had a much lower power consuming i7 7700hq and 1060 mobile graphics card and it used a 200W adapter. It just seemed to make sense that the relatively tiny and only 180W adapter failed like that.

For me the Chicony adapters were always suspect, the first I had has needed extensive repairs to the outer cord material but still works well and then this one failed the first time I played a game.

Now that I don't see anyone else having issues with it I wonder what went wrong. I'm pretty sensitive to the smell of electric burning, I was an engineer on a ship, and when you live on a boat fires often mean death and electrical fires mean death plus a hell of a lot of repair for those lucky enough to survive. I can't help having a reaction to that particular smell, so I'm sure nothing else is going on or I would have smelled it and started tearing things apart looking for the cause. Beside, the new power brick never gets more than a little warm where the original was always much hotter.

It still has me wondering if i was unlucky and got a bad adapter, maybe the one made on Friday evening when everyone down the line was hurrying to get their party started or on Monday when they're all hung over. Of course we're talking about China here, so they probably work 7 days a week anyway.

 

They do, even 2 configurations (Samsung 2666 and 3200MHz)...

 

Hi guys,

One of our first customers of XMG APEX 15 has published multiple videos with analysis and tuning of his XMG APEX 15 in various firmware stages.

• Review Part 1
• Tuning Guide Part 1: new BIOS & CPU OC/UV
• Tuning Guide Part 2.1: Memory Tuning #1
• Tuning Guide Part 2.2: Memory Tuning #2
• Tuning Guide Part 2.3: Memory Tuning #3 (tba)
• Tuning Guide Part 3: (tba)

These videos are well worth watching for anyone who wants to take a deep-dive into XMG APEX 15. Shout out to u/coreZair for creating those videos and providing us valuable feedback.

Cheers,
Tom

 

XMG does, but not Aftershock (my local distributor), sadly. They also use different BIOS, so I'm not 100% sure ram compatible with the XMG build will also work on mine
e: they got back to me, but only have 16gbx2 kits available. also no recommendations on compatible ram beyond what they supply

 

Judging from what I have been trough when 64GB does not work... it's most probably the laptop. After I got my replacement motherboard, all bios/memory combinations worked without any hiccups. A good indication for the symptom is that 1 stick will work ok, and when you insert both then it will fail to boot, crash, hang, restart etc randomly. The symptoms are more severe going up in frequency... 2666Mhz needed a very specific scenario to reproduce the crash and it took 20-30 minutes, while 3200Mhz crashes in the same test in 1-3 minutes.
RMA maybe?

Memory compatibility should be the same for all vendors, even if they "don't support it". The machine is made by Clevo and they are selling it with 3200Mhz/64GB so every other vendor can support it if they choose to. BIOS related... XMG offered a moded BIOS, but even they came in line with all the others with the newly released version , and it's the same stock Clevo BIOS that everyone is using with a different Boot-logo in it. So using a particular brand won't affect memory compatibility.