HTWingNut's Sager NP7330 / Clevo W230ST First Impressions WITH VIDEOS!

Solid. Very solid.

 

Thanks, seems bright enough and highly usable =)
Nice to hear about the vRAM too, impressive o/c !

 

If only there were notebook coolers that were like this, minus the elevated legs... Honey-Can-Do Stackable Kitchen Organizer Rack - Walmart.com... I'm seriously considering getting one of these though, haha. Would be nice for the bed too, since it's elevated off your lap, sorta like a breakfast in bed tray table thingy.

 

was hoping you'd say "well, its OK, but not that great" or something to alleviate the sting of buying my MSI rig mere days before what I really wanted was released

 

That's awesome! I was only hoping for +250mhz. When you took off the heatsink could you tell what what kind of vram chips they're using? I'm wondering if it's actually 1500mhz rated vram.

 

I didn't look, but will next time I go to repaste. I was beginning to wonder too if it's 1500MHz RAM, it may very well be. If that's the case then I'll keep pushing. Even if it's 1250MHz then 2500MHz should be easily achievable for everyone.

 

@HTWingnut

I wanna ask of all the Haswell laptops you have tested, which one runs the coolest so that the CPU and GPU can run without throttling. I am not looking for overclocking, but I just want that the hardware I order runs at the best of it's abilities. From your reviews it seems the 177M might be the winner in that case.

I don't game but I want a powerful laptop. I was pretty impressed by the W740 but it doesn't offer 2 mSata slots and I badly wanna run 2 Plextor M5M in Raid 0. So even though I don't game I was looking to order this but looking at these issues( they probably won't come into play with my kinda usage), I am now leaning towards the 177M.
Pity the W740 doesn't come with 2 mSata slots as it is quite a looker and pretty slim as well.

P.S - I also belong to the minority who like a glossy screen. 80% of my usage is in a dark room so I prefer the vibrance of a glossy display.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

Did you reduce the multi as mentioned in earlier posts? Or just undervolt?

 

So forget about this laptop and aim for one without GPU.
Don't be like people who drive SUV downtown

They look removable, at worst you can still cut them in half.. go for it honey !

 

I've suspected for a while the GTX 765M is memory bandwidth limited at higher settings and I think I just got my confirmation. Great find, that's really going to help out with a few games.

 

I am ready to buy the W740 but the only problem is it doesn't have 2 msata slots.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

RAID is almost useless on SSDs, just buy a larger disk.

 

I love that Tomshardware did an article on this, and I love that you linked it.

The title of their conclusion page sums up RAID-0 on SSDs perfectly.... "Great for Benchmarks, Not so Much In the Real World."

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

I agree RAID 0 is not so practical for most users, and really wouldn't recommend it out of the gate.

But there's a couple scenarios to consider.
(1) If you get a good bargain on two smaller mSATA drives (there's frequently great flash sales on SSD's these days).
(2) If you want/need a larger HDD in the 2.5" slot. Right now you're limited to 256GB mSATA's for the most part. There are some 480GB, but they are cost prohibitive compared with 2x256GB. 480GB mSATA is $500+. You can get two Plextor or two Crucial 256GB mSATA for < $400.

Not to mention the article didn't even assess stripe size. You can get significant difference using 4K stripe all the way up to 128K stripe, and they didn't even indicate what stripe size they used.

You do have to consider the mSATA SSD though too. I wouldn't consider two Samsung 840 (non Pro), not that they make mSATA yet, but the writes of a 128GB are half that of the 256GB, so a 256GB makes more sense.

 

This I like! So assuming we're going for performance there's plenty of headroom, and if we're going for battery life I'll guess there's plenty of potential for dropping the voltage on the vRAM, core not so much but hey. I hope if/when Prema's efforts come to fruition he has both an overvolt and undervolt bios, I'll be going for extreme battery life on this, maybe to the point of low voltage RAM

 

Prema's already on the move. Modded BIOS in process.

But you wno't be able to drop voltage on the vRAM, only the CPU and with any luck the GPU. Low voltage RAM won't make much difference really. I also have a 256GB mSATA drive and thinking of installing Windows on that and use that as the only drive in the system, installing 1.35V Samsung RAM, and checking battery life then.

 

Thanks for that. But even if I won't use them in Raid 0, I would still prefer having 2 msata slots. Reason being I would prefer 2x1TB at in the normal HDD.
Currently there aint any 512GB msata IIRC, so the only way for me to get that much SSD is by buying a laptop with 2 msata slots.

Wingnut bro, were you satisfied with the 157M cooling and performance wise. I am gonna buy 4800MQ and either a 770 or 780 and game on a 32" TV.
Also have you ever gamed or watched a movie over Intel Wi-Di using Netgear Push2TV or something similar

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

To run modded INFs on Windows 8 you absolutely must disable Driver signature enforcement and secure booth among other things.

I made myself a small guide just so when i format things go faster and i dont have to go hunting for how to . You should be able to get some other drivers installed though now on the 765m like i did on my 780m.

Secure Boot needs to be disabled.

Command prompt as Administrator

Paste these commands into the command prompt

Step 1. bcdedit -set loadoptions DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS


Step 2. bcdedit -set TESTSIGNING ON

Reboot and now you can install any driver unsigned.

There will be a water mark about running Windows in test mode.

 

That's why I meant it to sound like it was an extreme measure, shame about the vRAM though but I guess digitally controlled (and then external access to that) voltage regulators are expensive, I'll have a poke around and see what can be done by opening it up and changing resistor values like the old days of overclocking... uh, eventually, UK's still waiting for stock.

 

RAID or not you can put a larger HDD in the 2.5" slot, I don't see the point.
And if you get a good bargain on 2 smaller drivers, well run them as JBOD, you don't need RAID because you've got 2 disks..
The only scenario to consider is if you really need those high seq. R/W speeds, then it's interesting.

I don't think that will change much on SSDs.... yes ?

 

HTWingNut is saying that RAIDing 2x mSATA SSDs makes sense when:
(1) You need over 256GB of SSD storage; and
(2) You cannot use your 2.5" SATA drive bay for SSDs, because you need to use that drive bay for high capacity mechanical HDD storage.

Some people in this thread (including me) have said that it is pointless to use RAID-0 to buy two smaller SSDs (128GB), when you can buy a single SSD with equivalent capacity (256GB), because you are expecting a performance difference.

HTWingNut pointed out that RAID-0 makes sense when you cannot buy a single high-capacity SSD (512GB or 1TB) for cost or availability reasons. In that case, it makes sense to buy 2x256GB or 2x512GB drives and RAID then together to get the capacity you need. I would agree with him.

At that point, you might as well RAID, just to get all of your SSD storage onto a single volume (compared to JBOD).





Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

Oh, ok thanks, I see the point now =)

But I insist

I'd rather leave them as JBOD to avoid the 2x power consumption and increased system failure probabilities, as I explained earlier, since you will NOT gain any perf except on seq. R/W using RAID.

If you really want that single volume (I think we're nitpicking now ), use symbolic links, at least you won't lose your system if the 2nd disk fails.

RAID used to be awesome on perfs.
Now it's available on this kind of machine, people want to use it even if it almost doesn't make sense anymore with SSDs... Because they can ^^

Well, enough said for me, everyone has valid reasons to do what they do, let's get back on topic !

 

Kent1146 explained my point very well. And you can't JBOD with the built-in chipset only RAID0 or RAID1. JBOD would be a Windows RAID which would be major CPU overhead not to mention that if you break a JBOD your data may be trashed anyhow (like with RAID 0), and you can't boot off a Windows JBOD array since Windows can't boot of a dynamic disk. Not to mention the performance hit of JBOD.

Stripe size can make a significant difference with SSD's, although 4k seems not to vary a whole heck of a lot regardless of what you do.

Well said and thanks for explaining my point.

 

XoticPC shipped mine WITHOUT RAID0 set so I now have two 256GB msata drives ads C: and D:. Damn them. How can I set them to raid0 without rebuilding from scratch? I also have a seperate 1TB drive installed. I need one larger drive and a 500GB msata is too expensive.

Rob

 

When you initialize a RAID array, it will always wipe out whatever data previously existed on those drives. The correct way to preserve any pre-existing data when you attempt to migrate from single drive --> RAID array is to:

(1) First, clone your single drive.
(2) Go into the RAID configuration utility, and build your RAID array. This will wipe data from both drives.
(3) Restore your drive image onto your newly-created RAID array.

However, since you're dealing with a clean system, this is probably going to be much more trouble than it is worth. Because when you try to boot off of your RAID array, your Windows installation will likely be unbootable and/or blue-screen. First, the Windows bootloader will no longer point to the correct boot partition (you changed the drive & partition location of your Windows install by moving it into a RAID array). And second, your current Windows installation will likely not contain RAID drivers, which means that you will be unable to read from the RAID array, and your system will blue-screen during the Windows boot process.

You CAN try to do the whole drive cloning / imaging route. But to be honest, it's going to be faster and easier for you to just build a RAID array and do a clean install of Windows. It will take you literally 45-60 minutes to get your Windows installation to exactly where you are now (clean Windows installation, drivers, patches). Additionally, a clean Windows installation is one of the more demanding things you can do to your system hardware, so it's a good way for you to "stretch the legs" of your new laptop. Personally, I enjoy doing clean Windows installations onto new systems I buy, just so that I can see how much faster my new system feels compared to my old hardware.

 

Normally I would agree but I set things up properly before I realzied the mistake. Now it will take me much longer to do the setp that close. The issue is that the main msata has two other partitions on it called recovery partition and efi partition. How do I keep those even if I do a clean restart. My thought was to use the software from paragon to close the entire drive but I am afraid it may not work when going back to the raid0 and will not get the right partitions.

Rob

 

The Recovery and EFI partitions were automatically created by the Windows 8 install process. If you choose to do a clean re-install of Windows 8, they will get re-created.



You have two options here:

(1) Use disk cloning software to preserve a drive image of your single SSD; create your RAID array; restore your drive image onto your RAID array; go into Windows 8 Setup recovery mode, and tell your system to repair any problems with your install.

(2) Do a clean re-format and re-install of Windows from scratch.


Between those two, I'd STILL recommend option #2 (clean re-install of Windows). The reason is because there's a decent chance that Option #1 will fail, and you will end up in a situation where you need to re-install Windows anyway.

The most likely scenario that you'll run into will be one where Windows bluescreens during the boot process after you restore the drive image onto your RAID array, because your Windows install is sitting on a drive controller for which Windows doesn't have the correct drivers to access. You can't boot into Windows because you don't have the correct drivers; and you can't install drivers because you can't boot into Windows (not even Safe Mode). This is a pain-in-the-butt. I say, just cut your losses and do a Windows 8 re-install.

 

That Tom's Hardware article is deeply flawed. The way it's written, it is totally biased against finding advantages to RAID0. Their "real world tests" which they base their conclusions on are booting and opening a bunch of programs. Is that your idea of a real world test of RAID0?

Opening programs is just the beginning of the day, for Pete's sake. Do you ever copy a lot of files???. Or compile a program using tons of libraries? SQL query a huge database? Or output gigabytes of numerical simulation data and Markov chain Monte Carlo? That is all sequential reads/writes my friend. That is where RAID0 buys you the crazy speed factor.

RAID0 is for power users who need the very best disk performance for complex tasks. Their "real world" is far more demanding than that Tom's Hardware article tests. Yes, Joe Gamer shouldn't use RAID0 but that's not who we are in this forum are we?

 

Yes, because that's what happens in the real world.

Sure. But file copy operations are never so significant that I feel like I need to make specific hardware buying / configuration decisions based solely on that activity.

Nope. I'm not a software developer

Nope. I'm not a database administrator, and I don't write SQL queries.

Definitely no. I don't even know what that is.

Correct. But 99.9% of people out there don't do complex tasks that involve a high number of sequential writes. They aren't software developers. They aren't database administrators. They don't run numerical simulations. They aren't professional photographers, or video editors. 99.9% of people out there don't need RAID0.

Actually, yes, most people in this forum ARE Joe Gamer. Most people here are computer enthusiasts who buy consumer-grade laptops. Most of them use their laptops for browsing the web, checking email, playing games, consuming media (music, video, etc). Some of them use their laptops for work-related or school-related activities. Very few of them use their laptops for the kind of work that demands workstation-class performance that you described.

Don't get me wrong... I recognize that there ARE people out there that benefit from RAID-0 on SSDs. My point is that RAID-0 on SSDs is overkill for most people, and that most people who think about RAID-0 on SSDs are doing it to satisfy a personal obsessive-compulsive desire to have "the best", rather than for an actual practical benefit. It's just like how most people who own a Ferrari don't NEED a Ferrari. Most of them buy Ferraris because they are car enthusiasts that get personal satisfaction out of knowing they own "the best", even if all they ever do with that Ferrari is drive it 65mph on the highway to work.

 

That's cool... and I'm sorry if I came across as harsh... I've known people who own Porsches in Hawaii so I fully comprehend the point you're making.

 

If they are large un-fragmented files, ok. Else, it mostly is random access.
That's why your 10MB copy of 1000 files will take more time than your 1GB copy of 2 files, if you don't know.
I hardly ever have the need to copy large files on a disk/network fast enough to handle 500+MB/s, do you ?

Random access.

Typical random access !!

Now that may be a good use case. One I won't base my buying needs on, however.
Please yourself if this is your main activity through the day xD

OGK
Power users do know what sequential access is, and that random access is far more important on a daily basis.
Seq. access do have use cases however, like video editing. But those people will know they need it.

Actually I wonder if games wouldn't be loading their levels..... sequentially

 

Raid0 much like graphics cards is best considered once you jump above the fastest single drive you can get.

 

You are the type of user I was referring to, and I know it's not that uncommon for people to want a large SSD plus large HDD for storage. I think it's a great option to have in a smaller machine.

Unfortunately Kent1146's advice is sound. Best way to do it is clean install, it will save a lot of headache in the long run.

 

Or you can use symbolic links, you'll get one volume, less power consumption and no hassle / lost time re-installing your system.

 

You might not even need symlinks depending on what you're doing with the space. My current laptop has two drives mounted as separate volumes but I never worry about combining them (RAID / software JBOD / whatever). In almost any case you can easily switch drive letters. Steam, for example, recently added the ability to make multiple "libraries" where some games are stored in the Steam install folder but some are stored on a different disk, no symlink trickery involved.

 

Finally! And I NEVER EVEN NOTICED!

You wouldn't believe how many years I've sent feedback to valve to support install anywhere more or less and WTH wasn't in steam in the first place instead of being defective by design?

 

It's awesome, right? Makes me really happy that they finally let you do it. I keep some "top tier" games on my SSD with my "second string" on the rust-drive. Love it.

 

Yeah, and they do this right after I specifically purchased a 1TB caviar black on the desktop for exclusive use by steam(rather than mucking around with links, etc. as my installed games were outgrowing my original shared setup...

(I usually just leave games installed as I figure some day I might play again and newer games are getting to be quite large, although moving the desktop over to almost gigabit(homeplug 500Mbps which really ends up about 200Mbps to gigabit ether capable ports) is downloading even large games in minutes v. hour or more via wifi...

I get the feeling that I'm gonna like having 802.11ac in my notebooks, can't wait to try the 7260 in ac mode when my 7330 shows...

(I'm in "order sent to factory" limbo right now... OTOH when I get a new Gr. Cherokee I'm going to have to order that as well, and don't have my factory contacts to bump the build order to the top any longer...)

 

yes abit like SLi or CF :thumbsup:

 

I have an AC router and the AC card installed. How can I tell if it is using AC or not?

Rob

 

There's no simple way I've found other than to do some data transfer tests. If it's over 20MB/sec then you're definitely using AC.

 

Please continue conversation in the REVIEW thread here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/sag...np7330-clevo-w230st-review-3.html#post9298430

 

That's not entirely true, there is an easier/neater way of installing non-signed drivers on Win 8:

1. Windows key + R - "shutdown.exe /r /o /f /t 00" - 'OK'
2. Select 'Troubleshoot' - 'Advanced options' - 'Startup Settings' - 'Restart'
3. Select '7. Disable Driver Signature Enforcement' - Install drivers

That way you can leave secure boot enabled and test mode is not required.

 

So I am going to rebuild. I have a recovery disk that came with the laptop. Can I just flip the RAID in the BIOS and use the CD to install from scratch? It indicates that it is a recovery CD and I want to make sure it will work from nothing as opposed to fixing a bad install.

Rob

 

There are a few things to consider. I don't own a Clevo W230ST, so I don't know the exact steps / screens you need to go through. But in general, what you need to do is:

(1) Enable RAID support. That involves going into your BIOS, enabling RAID, and setting the RAID device as your primary boot device. You will also need to go through some kind of RAID setup utility to create your RAID array, and tell your system which drive(s) to put into RAID. Some implementations do this directly from BIOS. Some other implementations will bring up a messaging prompt during the boot process to enter this RAID setup utility (telling you to hit Ctrl-D or something).


(2) Run Windows 8 Setup, using the disc that came with your system. It will most likely be a straight Windows 8 disc , and not a heavily modified recovery disc that puts a bunch of bloatware on your system. I would recommend using that Windows 8 disc to create a bootable Windows 8 install onto a USB flash drive. That will be significantly faster than installing Windows 8 off of a disc (read speeds of up to 30Mbps for USB 2.0, 100+ Mbps for USB 3.0, or 5Mbps for optical disc).

Note: During this step, you will need to do a few things to get your system to boot off of DVD disc (or USB drive). Your system may have an option to bring up a boot menu to select which device you want to boot. Your system may have UEFI Secure Boot enabled (which you need to disable). Your system may not have any of these options, and require you to set boot device priority directly in BIOS. I'm not familiar with Clevo W230ST menus and BIOS, so you'll need to look around to find the correct settings to tell your system to boot off of DVD / USB.

(3) Install Windows. Then install drivers, Windows patches, applications, games.






Notes:

(A) It helps to download all of the drivers (and internet downloadable apps) you will need and put them onto a USB flash drive BEFORE you begin the reformat process. You need to do this no matter what, and it's signfiicantly easier to do this BEFORE you begin a reformat, rather than after you do a reformat. The reason is because after a reformat, you will often run into annoyances that prevent you from downloading things off of the internet, such as missing network drivers, or missing video drivers that force you into poor screen resolutions (and make it hard to navigate a web page).

(B) Make a list of applications you need to install BEFORE you reformat. This is easiest done BEFORE you reformat, because you can just go onto your current system into Windows Control Panel ---> Add / Remove Programs, and see what you currently have installed. Download all of those apps, and put them onto a USB flash drive. After you reformat, use that same list as a checklist, and cross things off as you install them.

(C) During a Windows install, it is always good practice to remove all other drives from your system except the drive(s) onto which you want to install Windows. For you, this means disconnecting your mechanical hard drive. The reason for this is because the Windows 8 installer will put a bunch of other data (EFI, Recovery) onto whatever it considers to be the "first" disk in the system. Unfortunately, you don't really know what Windows considers to be the "first" disk in the system, and you don't really have control over this. It's a lot easier to just disconnect the extra drives, and then re-connect them after the Windows install process completes.

(D) **** THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP ***
*** BEFORE YOU REFORMAT ****
Find the RAID drivers for your system. Extract them, and put them onto a USB flash drive. You will need them during the Windows 8 install process, when the Windows 8 Setup utility asks you to tell Setup where you want to install Windows.

 

Here's my video on RAID with W230ST, except I didn't do a restore.

<iframe width='640' height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Jfsv41gUa0k" frameborder='0' allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

HAY! (you guess) Shouldn't this thread also be closed/locked?

 

I made the request, the mods will get to it when they're good an ready.

 

Also on this. My thought was to put the fan exactly where you marked it but the heat fins straight to the right of there and the fan would blow the heat down and out. I'd be more comfortable making holes in the lower removable (replaceable) cover than the back area. So the heat would blow down. Not ideal but seems to be a good way of doing it.

 

If you blow it down you may want to duct it out to the side then. Otherwise you'll just be recirculating heat and heating up the entire bottom. Plus if you ever put the laptop in your lap it might be problematic.