Apple Refreshes The MacBook Pro Line Discussion

Is the integrated 320M in the 13" MBP really better than the dedicated 310M in some other lines?
I see the 9300GS V 9400M debate starting up again lol.
I know Apple released some benchmarks but i would prefer to see some benchmarks tested elsewhere.

 

Maybe it's going from Linux to Apple that gives people this impression? From overnerding to a land of the futz-free (yeah right)?

Everything you've written there pretty much smacks of ignorance of fairly fundamental aspects of the current state of the Windows machine market and also the state of Windows as well.

I use various flavours of UNIX - mainly Ubuntu and Red Hat. I use Windows 7. I *USE* OS X. I aso hate delving inside beige boxes - and with gear that's comparable to what's being released by Apple, you don't have to.

Part of Apple's 'genius' perhaps is selling people who can't actually make informed decisions stuff they can't cheap down and make unusable. There is the kind of guy who makes bad choices out of ignorance, but their tech-ego won't let let them see it. By removing their ability to make a poor buying decision and showing them (possibly for the first time in some case) what a half-decent PC actually can be, Apple has converted many such a guy - They make for the best Born-Again Apple Enthusiasts.

Maybe their stuff doesn't appeal to me that much because I can see right through that, and can actually make truly informed decisions for myself. I still buy them, but I don't get the same temptation to eulogise them.

 

Given the five business days shipment delay, we'll soon see trustworthy benches/reviews (and even earlier of the 15" models).

 

I'm in the software development line as well, I have to say that it's a shame that any non-apple-related software developer would ever prefer OS X over linux. The main attraction of linux is the open source, the ability to read through the source code and apply implementations of your own to modify the OS to your needs, that's true fun and attractiveness of the linux OS to a software developer, to say that OS X gives you convenience means removing all these fun and attraction that is what makes linux great to software developers in the first place.

Nevertheless, large scale software development is never quite done on the linux or OS X, almost all of them is done on windows, because of how robust of a system windows is. I could name tons of libraries that would not support OS X, but almost all of them will support development on the windows. Often on those open source library forums, I could see people begging for an OS X compatible release, I just laugh to myself and use the library conveniently in my windows machine.

The only advantage for software developer OS X brings is OS X/iphone etc related development.

Could still remember that during my national service days (compulsory military service over here), the IT officer is thorough true breed apple fanboy, but he don't even have any idea what is i7 when mentioned, and thought that a simple barcode to database data comparison code (basically just something that read a guy's ID, and retrieve his particulars and merge all their data to a new database, something a C++ beginner could probably do) I wrote out in 30min is something awesome. TBH, after this, any IT related personnel who claim they love mac, I will lose most of my confidence in their technical expertise immediately, and up till now, I've not being proven wrong yet.

Anyways, for the normal masses to think that tweaking a system is a chore, I could understand, but for a software developer... Moreover, about all those virus and spyware on windows etc, they are so old, the weakest link to a computer exploit is what's between a chair and the keyboard, exploits almost all the time are just obvious traps, how could a software developer ever fall to such traps? To be honest, I've never gotten a single virus in my life on windows, and I've used windows for more than 15 years already.

 

Well Obviously u have been brainwashed.. a $1499 Asus G73 can completely thrash a macbook... It has a i7 quad , which is better and will last longer than i7-620m, 8GB RAM which is expandable to 16GB... ur stuck with only 8GB in a macbook , ATI 5870 , which will not only thrash but will burn alive a GT330M and 500GB 7200rpm drive which is obviously faster than the 5400rpm one u get in a mac... that's just one laptop ... i can name a few others which for a similar price , would blow the Macbook out of the water... and looks to me , ur an apple fan boy..

I think that's the idea.. /close thread

Apple just doesn't have the headway in the Macbook to put anything more powerful.. its cooling has always been crap so no question of having it updated for another year and even then , it will be crap

I'd get the Acer rather than a Macbook as a portable one after hearing this.

Get something else... there are way better deals if u look online.... for the price ur paying , u can get a Dell studio XPS16 on dell website fully speced up..but if ur choosing from the above 2, the Hp will be my choice... the Macbook doesn't warrant the extra 400 euros IMO..

 

As much as I'm not a fan of macs, I would say that comparison of Mac with a gaming laptop like G73 is not exactly appopriate, they are made for different target audience with different mobility/performance ratio. Though business/slim notebook comparisons are still rather reasonable, and macs are still inferior to those in the same form factor.

 

I also will agree that large scale software development is easier in Windows. Few consumers realize how extensive the software development ecosystem is for Windows.

 

Just curious. is the hd4670 faster than the 330m in the macbook?

 

Yes. 10char

 

That and the MacBook Pro will last over 15 minutes away from a desk.

Yes, the 15" MBP is overpriced for the components, but I can't think of a laptop off the top of my head that has comparable specs and nearly seven hours of battery life.

It's not a complete ripoff, just a slight one.

 

the only reason it gets 7 hrs of battery life is because of the switchable graphics. so unless you're doing basic functions it won't last. i'd imagine we start seeing a lot more switchable graphics in high powered computers sooner or later. probably sooner. even without switchable graphics the only reason it has battery life is because of the extremely underpowered gpu.

 

and oversized battery. in real world WORK for me I estimate 3.5 - 4.5 hours.

I dont dim my screen that much and like to do a little more than browse the web without video, do my e-mail and play on messenger.
but I will tell you when my 15" and 17" refresh show up.

 

The Sony Z with extended battery for one - and it'll still be a pound less than the 13-inch Macbook Pro. It may have a 13-inch panel, but resolution is comparable to the 15-inch in the 1600 versions.

 

You guys really just don't want to listen. I have not been "brainwashed", and in fact I went into the process of shopping for a laptop this year with Apple being the last thing on my mind. I really dislike a lot of the things Apple does, from selling out of date components (which they were doing at ridiculous price just a few days ago in MBPs), to refusing to work with other companies like Adobe and Sony, so being total control freaks in the App store and with their iPhone development tools. I have an Android phone. The last thing I wanted to do at the start of this process was buy a Mac. But I have had the opportunity to use many of them recently, and they have eventually won me over. Many of you refuse to believe that such a thing can happen without being an "Apple fanboy" or "brainwashed" and these ad hominems do nothing to enhance your arguments. Worse yet, they do nothing to enhance your understanding of the current computing landscape.

You mention the G73, which will of course beat any Mac on pure benchmarks of raw power. But it also comes with a clunky form factor, get less than 2! hours of battery life, and is made by a company I trust a lot less for quality and support than Apple. You will always find cheaper, more powerful computers made by other companies if you only compare components, but you will miss the story, and the reason why many professional computer users choose Apple. It's not because they are all "fanboys", whatever that even means.

The simple fact, as I have gradually learned by using my gf's and other Macs over the past few months, is that Macs are more pleasant to use. The OS, to me, easily outperforms Windows 7 when it comes to quickness and responsiveness. The trackpad is soooo much better than anything you can get in a Wintel box. The battery life is gigantic. The form factor and build quality are top notch. I've spent the last 15+ years buying PCs that were maxed out on the current technology and am tired of dealing with spyware scans, driver updates, windows brainfarts, etc. etc. For my purposes (which includes a lot of processor intensive work) the benefits of having more raw power in a PC build do not outweigh all the things that attract me to a Mac.

There is no question I'm paying a premium, but I think that it's worth it. Buying an Apple was the last thing I wanted to do; it is akin to giving in to the dark side. Steve Jobs makes me angry when I just see a picture of him. But the damn things just work better, and are more pleasant to do work on. It will be my main tool from now until I'm out of here with a PhD, and I'd prefer to spend my money the machine I want the most.

For the record, I'm getting a 15" with an i7, the "hi-res" matte screen, 8GB RAM, and with a 7400 RPM hdd. It should be here sometime next week. If you'd like to know how it performs I'd be happy to return to this forum and run some benchmarks for you all, or report anything you'd like to know. I respect that many of you would never choose a Mac and I myself would never choose a Mac desktop. But there is no reason to imply that anyone who buys a Mac is stupid, a technophobe, or a fanboy. I might have even agreed with you a few months ago, but I feel it is worth reconsidering that view, because it is definitely false.

 

Wow, what a mud-throwing contest this thread has become.

I vote for closing it up.

 

Well you said it exaclty right there: Apple is reaping a premium because no one is challenging them. So they have a certain market to themselves.

What bothers me is the lack of realization by people here that isnt Apple fooling anybody. Rather virtually all of the PC market is marching in lockstep, hopes to fool people into buying mediocrity. At which point Apple, just by making any effort at all, reaps benefits.

I mean at the end of the day if you want a good screen, you can order an apple and you are sure of getting one. Their battery life is longer, pound for pound, despite the cries about integrated. And they are designed to look decent, not like some turd that you want to hide in the back of your drawer. People want it - and they pay for it.

So I wish folks would quit acting like Apple is fooling people on laptops - they arent at all. I mean I'm busy right now looking for a 13 or 15 inch quality laptop. My parameters are that I want
- good resolution (ie no 768 pixels nonsense)
- high quality screen in terms of contrast and colour
- good touchpad (ie definitely no Apls cra#pola)
- durable build
- very quiet operation
- long battery life without some ugly lump poking out the back.

You know what? I cant find it. That despite the fact that all the PC laptop makes have like a gazillion redundant models. Less than 1% of all those way redundant models are actually targeted at quality-seeking buyers. That is bizzare in a world where people gladly spend more for a quality car, cup of coffee, TV, sneakers or handbag. But nobody wants to focus on offering quality PCs without corners cut?

They corner cutting is particularly disturbing when then they try to dazzle you with specs. Why? Well I've got a two year old laptop that honestly I am not taxing the CPU in any way. This isnt unique - basically everyone who really is observant realises that by now CPU speed is no longer the barrier in most people's daily life. Its GPU or hard drive speed really. So why would I rush to buy something that cuts corners and is trying to mislead me with specs. Specs are quite fine on even Core2Duo really.

So in all likelihood, despite preferring to buy a PC, I'm going to end up buying an Apple it seems. And I'm one of the few people that actually bother searching. Most folks in my situation just ignore do the simple thing: they walk over the apple store or website and in a minute with a quality product that is exactly what they want. THAT is why Apple is making big bucks.

 

Why is battery life considered so important for a 17" desktop replacement form factor notebook?

Is extra battery life worth a $900 premium (the price of a 17" MBP built to come as close to the performance of a G73JH laptop would cost $900 more...and still be an inferior system in terms of performance)?

Keep in mind, for that $900 performance, you can have the G73JH and an Asus UL30 series laptop that's known for excellent battery life as well.

 

Right. Apple is the ONLY manufacturer out there making quality computers and notebooks.

Puff puff pass, dude.

 

anyone know how much upgrading to the 7200 rpm disk ($50) would affect battery life?

is the i7 upgrad ($200) worth it?

 

Sorry to say, but it's you who is blinded. As a hopeful academic, you are shielded from much of the "real world." I don't mean that in a condecending way. I may make my way back to academia soon myself.

Your Mac "just works," because it's so limited and closed. Literally 5% of the software I use I would be able to use on a Mac.

So the mac will get 6.5 hours on playing DVD. DVD's are what, 15 years old? Congrats, you have a $2300 DVD player. And can I run any of my software while playing that 7 hour DVD? Nope.

And we don't need to see any benchmarks on how it runs. It will perform like a castrated 4 month old Envy 15. Of course, OSX will always be snappy. The MBP will get great battery life in OSX. It's because you can't run anything!

 

A little off-topic, but have you tried looking at the Dell and HP business lines, like a Dell Latitude or the HP 8440p?

 

Well, as long as you don't mind a yellow tinge.

This describes many notebooks, but not the MacBooks I've seen. I share an office with somebody who uses one. Sure, it's quiet as long as it is idle (few notebooks are not), but give it any sort of load at all and wow, that thing is LOUD. It's louder than my laptop and the desktop sitting in the same office put together. This is the price paid for the slightly smaller form factor: there is nowhere to put a decent cooling system and they have to crank the fan up.

Look at the business-oriented models or at smaller computer stores -- they're a bit more expensive, but usually still cheaper than Apple. The consumer lines are generally intended for people who are after price rather than quality.

However, you are correct: Apple is the only mainstream company offering business-level quality to the consumer market (and this is part of the reason they can get away with such high prices). It's utterly bizarre how Dell and HP have gone out of their way to hide their business laptops from consumers.

 

I'm really surprised how many replies here seem to come down to "But its magic". Some subjective notion that "macs are nicer" or "its the whole package" whatnot should not excuse price and hardware failures. When people discuss hardware features of other PCs, nobody addresses Windows 7 despite the fact its part of "the package". Lets keep a hardware discussion to the hardware, please.

 

One of my big priorities is having a decently performing laptop that I feel is light and robust enough to carry around all day. This makes weight and build quality very important to me.

I've got a 15" Macbook Pro (18 months old) right now and really like it. Good performance, decent weight and a case that doesn't flex when I hold it on one hand.

When I was looking for it, there was a dearth of machines that had that sort of weight and still had a decent graphics card. Now it seems like there are more options.

So, what would you recommend?

• I don't want anything heavier than what I've currently got (5.6 lbs), I already consider that on the high side.
• I do want decent build quality. My macbook is robust
• I do want a decent graphics card (I do play games as well as work on it) and I'd like it to be reasonably fast in two years time.
• I don't want it looking like a toy, I work on this, I want it to run games, but I'm not buying something that looks like was designed by Toys R Us.

So what's out there that isn't one or two pounds heavier than what I have?

 

And as someone else pointed out, look at business-class machines. My problem there is that they stick to pushing appalling graphics cards. I'd be happy to be wrong there, guess I need to start looking again.

 

Yes , it is quite much faster than GT330M...

If u don't want a desktop replacement , then there's a 15 inch envy , which can also get quite nice battery life if u use a 12 cell... anyways , ur not going to get 7 hours life on a 17 inch anyways... well whatever the case , its a rip off IMO..

This made me laugh! But hey that's the FACT!

 

Must be, because you say it is. I can't run anything! OK....

I need to browse the web, read newsgroups, do email, run office for word, excel, and powerpoint, read and manipulate PDFs, run MATLAB. Store some music, video, and pictures for fun. I honestly don't care about gaming. I like to run some specialized software from time to time (like chess engines) which are not all Mac compatible, but enough are, and I'm considering boot-camping a 100gb Windows 7 space for the odd such task anyway.

I can't really think of any software I'm likely to want to run in the next 3-5 years of grad school that I can't run on an MBP. But then, you guys say I can't run anything, so it must be true..?

 

We all know he is over-emphasizing his point by saying "can't run anything" but maybe to the population of China, a town in Delware is nothing.

 

I see people mentioning a superior trackpad in the Apple vs PCs. In the year 2010 people still actually use that square area beneath the keyboard freqently???

I thought 93.71% of notebook owners buy mice and never use those touchpads unless they really need to on the go.

 

Well I guess I live in Delaware.

I'm not trying to be combative, but I really wish some people would reevaluate their extreme anti-Mac bias. We all know they are more expensive, but they *do* have perks that are worth it to some people. This does not make these people idiots, technophobes, or fanboys. I see just as much irrational bias on the PC side as I do on the Mac side.

As someone who now owns both, I guess I am acutely aware of this noise. But really, not only is the above an exaggeration, it bears little relation to reality for the common user. I'm not sure what these mountains of software are that you can't run on a Mac, because there isn't anything at all I can think of that I use regularly or that any of my colleagues use regularly.

I think both sides of the subject should really be able to get along and understand each other. The internet has a way of polarizing people along all sorts of lines because it provides ample opportunity for confirmation bias to work its magic. Maybe I hope for too much.

...

(But really don't you just love that trackpad? And they added inertial scrolling with this update .. with was really the straw that broke the camel's back for me!)

 

I'd say in terms of the number of relative users, the number of Apple (suffix whatever category of irritating little ...) far outnumber the irrational PC users, especially in the way they ram it down your throat.

However, I would have to say that most Mac naysayers are price-fixated and don't understand or appreciate that design is something that actually both adds value and allows you to charge more for it - and as I've undoubtedly said before, I don't believe Macs are overpriced if you take that into account.

Anyway, I won't be bothering to refresh as I've given up updating machines in the hope that subsequent generations work well enough for my flagship Sony/Dell/HP-acclimatised expectations - and my guess is that they're probably going to leave it until a tweaked unibody next year.

 

Well , i doubt u can expect a Mac to run Matlab as fast as an envy... still whatever the case , IDK.. Macbook refresh ain't worth it.. Apple is so stingy.. charging a ton more for a 5400rpm drive when almost all laptops come with 7200rpm stock... and not to mention , 256MB GT330M... well nobody is so stingy to use 256MB.. if u want to get a Macbook , just get it... stop trolling here...

 

You obviously either havent read my post in detail - or dont want to absorb. Which is fine, but then no point making sarcastic knee jerk remarks.

BTW I've been buying PC laptops every 12-18 months since 1996 and I'm a Technet subscriber, so if you hope to hide in the illusion that I'm some sort of Apple fanatic,sorry.

When apple makes more profit on laptops than the entire rest of the PC industry does, well there's a problem out there - and denial isnt going to help. The others need to actually start competing whole heartedly for customers who are willing to pay for quality, instead of chasing each other to the bottom of the barrel.

 

Decent update on the CPU's, which was expected. Though the memory and hard drive space is still low. Oh well, they're supposed to be underspec'd..

 

16:10 = WIN
330 = epic FAIL just imagine how slow those suckers are going to be in 2 years when apple finally updates them.

Apple could definitely have done better with the 5670.

 

Apple makes more profit on laptops than the entire industry? Huh? Also, from a neutral perspective, I don't see the benefit in paying $1800+ (for newer models) for an Apple laptop, particularly when I look at some of the competition.

 

Oh yea, I bet they do, with what they charge. In fact, have you seen their profit margin for the iPad? It's ridiculous.
Where other manufacturers charge near the bottom line to stay competitive (which is awesome for consumers), Apple has no competition, so can (and does) charge whatever they want. Yay...

 

Well I wouldn't say that they're entirely business quality. More like somewhere between business and consumer (Premium consumer, perhaps is most appropriate). No spill resistant keyboard, no support understructure, no enhanced security options. I suppose you can say that Apple got as close to business quality as they can while still appealing to consumers. I personally like my EliteBook, but I can name many people who don't. EliteBooks are about as visually appealing that business notebooks get, and even those aren't too pretty (the plastic grey strip really detracts from the look IMO, though I understand why it's there). Thinkpads are on the opposite end, but they're the go-to for business notebooks.

 

The 7200RPM hard drive won't affect battery significantly unless you are doing a lot of reading and writing; in that case a 5400RPM drive might give you 20 minutes more out of 5-6 hours total life.
A 7200RPM hard drive will make your system much more responsive so I recommend it. The only thing I don't like about getting a 7200RPM drive pre-installed is that you are likely to get a Seagate drive, which have so-so quality and inferior performance to Western Digital Scorpio Black and Hitachi 7K500 7200RPM drives.
So, buy one of those drives aftermarket if you are comfortable with that or simply get a 7200RPM from Apple. Either way, you are better off with 7200RPM than 5400RPM.

The processor upgrade depends on what you are doing with the laptop. If you max your CPU usage all the time then the upgrade would help; Photoshop, MATLAB, etc are processor-intensive. However, the outright majority of people would be fine with any modern Intel processor . . . the base i5 processors (any of them) will give you the best value.

 

i happen to think design should be add tangible features. ergonomics, spill proof keyboards, impact resistance, scratch resistance, expansion slots, user servicability, thermal performance etc..
btw i think my current laptop suck in terms of these.

 

I think people are just a little angered people would try to defend buying one of these on a technical level. The reasons after all these pages of buying one boiled down to
1. Screen
2. Portability
3. Battery life

What's sad is the Sony Vaio Z has equivalent battery life, better portability and better performance. We have reached a deep dark strange space time continuum when a 13' outdoes a 17' MPB. The only thing that the Macbook pro could have on the Z is the better screen, except the screen on the Z is supposed to be top tier as well..

If you want to argue you like Mac because it looks better, you like its screen and like the simplicity of having an OSX that makes life easier for you then hey, got no problems with that arguement

 

right on. if i were to buy a mac, these would the three reasons.

 

Then why not the Sony, which in the same post, he states is better for those same reasons?

 

16:10
10 char.

 

Steve Jobs has acknowledged Apple can not really compete spec wise on the hardware front & prefer to focus on user experience.

As much as I have a distaste for Apple's business practices, Apple is rather renowned for their multitouch implementation.

Personally Wacom's recent Bamboo Touch tablets on my pcs have largely supplanted mice so MBP's "generously sized, buttonless multi-touch trackpad" are an attractive hardware feature to me to have when mobile although when I tried them recently -before this "inertial scrolling" support- did not seem as cool as my Wacom Bamboo Pen and Touch tablet that has inertial scrolling so I will try it out in a store again..

I still have significant doubts that the MBP is worth the premium over the Elitebook I mentioned & need to explore this more.

I'm still hoping the internet will continue to evolve as the killer app of pcs & will continue to make OS's less relevant...but if I do get a MacBook Pro can I not really expect it to run Win 7 well as some have suggested here?

 

You'll just have less support on the drivers and any glitches you find, I've heard the touchpad isn't as good, the battery life is cut in half in most cases, and it runs warmer. Apple wants you to run OSX, so you're kinda stuck, and they won't bother to fix these issues, so they can preserve their monopoly.

 

For the record I used to have a Vaio Z, really liked quite a lot about it, but was annoyed that the top of the line carbon fiber model was so flimsy that the screen would scratch on the keyboard. It performed well enough but didn't wear well at all, heck the mouse pad showed signs of wear within less than 6 months.

By comparison, my 18 month old MBP still looks brand new. Seriously stellar build quality.

 

If I ever ever ever considered a Mac, it'd have to be because of OSX, nothing more nothing less >.> That honestly is the main difference.

Well that and their cheap sATA connectors lol

 

Sure?
I always buy for my desktop Seagate Barracuda if I can. I have 2 Barracudas for some time and recently bought a 1TB 7200.12 and never had any problems with them. I can't argue with you about speed cause I never looked for any benchmarks...
I never had any WD but I did had 2 Hitachi and both of them stoped working in a 6 month period...

Yes I know that this is in a 3.5" HDD desktop environment, but HDD cant be so different for laptops? Can they? Maybe Im wrong here..

 

I'm sure they're well built, but I still need justification for paying $800-$1000 more, particularly when a cheaper laptop surpasses it in specs.