Very nice review, pity this thread is in a second dominated by quarrels :-(
Anyway, one thing missed in the review and missed again in the Mac design is the lacking of distinct navigation keys. You cannot be as productive as having those keys as distinct ones -- since we all see Apple now integrates those keys with arrow keys it is rather 0 chance they change their minds. And thus -- I won't be Apple customer for sure.
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so why buy a mac when they are just a clones on one Al-Mighty mac?
on the PC side...
my thinkpad speaks business
An Alienware speaks freekin' awesome-ness and gaming
HP good price good computer
Dell, "yours is here"
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Apple -over priced fruit labeled notebok thats part of the biggest cult in history
I know there are people who need apple computers, and good for them it's the Fanboi's that drive me crazy.
BTW I use both Linux and Windows.
Edit: also more than 50% of all my friends that own a MacBook-AL have dented it allready... I dare you to drop your macbook off a table, now I will do the same with my thinkpad... -
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Wow, for some reason, everytime macs get praised, windows fans just scream back. Not that its a bad thing, but I find it happening more often when macs gets praised rather than when pc's get praised.
After reading 9 pages of intense replies, I thought I'd leave a little bit of input. First thing, yes you may be satisfied with having a PC and running linux instead of buying a mac, however, although mac is based on linux, they are completely different and linux is still far from being as perfect as Leopard.
The second thing I wanted to comment about is the price controversy. I've never bought a mac, but I've played around with them before. I've had at least 4 laptops in the past, all of which were PC's, and clearly PC's cannot take a chance in terms of build. Yes they might be as strong as a thinkpad, but they are not as elegant as a mac. Or they be as elegant as a mac (quite rare), but not as strong as a mac. So in that regard, I think Apple stands out.
The third thing can be a disadvantage and an advantage at the same time, OS X. It can be an advantage because it is very intuitive and efficient compared to Microsoft's XP or Vista. It has new and updated features that catch consumer's eyes. That is a big plus. On the other hand, it does not support all programs that are available, or the programs are not designed to be supported on macs. For instance, as a programmer, I can't always use a mac because a lot of the software I use cannot be used. This by the way is not to say that any operating system is better than the other, just an insight I guess.
Finally, for those that exaggerated the price of macs, there were two things that they did not realize. First the machines that the macbook was compared to was a machine that was powerful and can do everything. Obviously that is not the macbook. Secondly, the customer service that macs have is unbeatable. I know of a lot of customers with limited warranties that have got everything fixed with their macs at no cost, and at some times they've gotten brand new machines.
Also, if you buy a mac, you don't get any bloatware. PC's usually come with millions of things that need to be uninstalled.
All in all, if I were looking at the macbook, not macbook pro, I'd probably justify it to be overpriced compared to competitors up to $200 despite it's shortcomings.
Finally, I just wanted to say I liked the review, but felt it was a little missing on features and a little biased as well. -
Ok,let me say something like this!
Imagine macos doesn't exist-then M$ wouldn't work so hard on Win 7,cos they would new that you have no alternative...And when M$ started to work harder(Vista SP1 64bit is quite good and stable),Apple started to improve MacOS leopard,so they can stay competitive.So more competition=better for us!M$ and Apple need each other and everything will fail if we loose either of them!
Also,if everything suited everyone,time will stop! Like-why we got redesigned macbooks?cos people complained that old one is...well,old and it started to become boring!if we didn't complain,we would have that design forever!And in other way-why W7 is coming out so soon?cos lots of people are complaining about Vista!else we would use Vista for another 4-5 years!And it is really impossible to satisfy everyone and still get money!
p.s. Well,this is what is called "apple wonder"-no other notebook maker can make such a buzz around its products...
p.p.s. I am really sorry if I offended someone here!I am sorry,I just got a little more excited then I should.it is new year and I just had too much of Vodka
p.p.p.s. And please don't think that I am a crazy fanboy...cos,well,even Devin needs a lawyer As you can see from my sig,I currently don't own anything apple,I have couple of PC's,and I like them a lot(especially my mini m-EEE ) -
That being said though, how much are you willing to spend for OSX when you can have Windows and Linux and have close to OSX for half the price if you're willing to put in a little legwork? That and you don't mind having a lowly PC instead of an apple on your notebook -
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Regarding the whole Mac vs PC warfare. Personally, I know plenty of people with Macs and PCs. Not once have I seen any of my "mac" friends assert any elitism or any of that nonsense, nor have I seen my "pc" friends dish out on macs.
Honestly, the only place I ever bear witness to hateful comments or straight bashing is on forums/online.
Lastly, stereotyping someone based on what type of computer/os they buy/have is really juvenile. I've used Windows, Linux, and OSX and it never fails to disappoint me when someone decides (online of course) that all apple users are snobby morons, or linux users basement computer geeks.
That said, I enjoyed the review, good job on the pictures. -
Wow, another surprising review of an apple product that can't compete performance-wise with much of anything in it's price range. Funny, I thought in this "post pc era" that just about every new laptop came with 4 gigs of RAM. I have to admit, it sure is pretty though. All of the hipsters in downtown Manhattan will know how cool you are when you tote one of these on your way to the FIT campus.
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I tend to really wonder why people are such Apple haters when Apple does nothing to them but present a product to the world. If you don't like Apple for whatever reason... don't buy their products and don't waste time posting here, it's pointless.
Oh, Windows PC's are "Normal" PC's? Macs aren't normal computers? Oh, I thought a normal PC is any personal computer that gets the job done for your personal needs.
There's nothing wrong with the new Macbook and it seems to bother you that the review was fair. -
I'm really liking it...but I'm worried about the keyboards...since they are black, do they get oily overtime? Like the old macbooks, the whites get really dirty over time...
Is this a problem with the black keyboards? It's plastic right? It doesn't leave black oily marks over time or instantly? -
Wow so much venom in this thread. I just want to read a discussion on the review and end up reading 11 pages of flames. Chill and let live guys.
PS. Notice that stuff like this only happens in Apple topics/reviews? I have yet to see a Sony, Levono or Toshiba product review attract this much angst. -
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Very nice review, though I thought it was a bit biased. Like others, I think the lack of ports should have been brought up. Even my cheap Aspire One has three USB ports, which I really think should be the minimum today.
Regarding this whole Mac/PC thing, I think it just comes down to preference and what you need over anything else. I just purchased an NEC LaVie G (I live in Japan and they aren't sold outside of the Japanese market) but was seriously considering a MacBook Pro before deciding on the NEC. Macs are beautiful machines and I really like the new models. For me, though, it came down to the lack of ports, excessive necessity of adapters and lack of Blu-Ray that led me away from the Mac. I don't mind at all paying a premium for good design, build quality and an exceptional OS, but I also expect to get the latest technology along with it. The new Macs disappointed me in this area. I was all ready to buy a Mac through Apple Japan when I looked at my order total of over $3,000 and realized that I would still need a dongle to hook up the MBP to an HD TV and there was no Blu-Ray. In the end I couldn't justify putting design over the functionality of integrated HDMI, Blu-Ray, card readers and a wide port selection, all of which are extremely important to me. The NEC I ended up getting has a Blu-Ray burner, 5 USB ports, IEEE 1394, dedicated Nvdia 9600M GS graphics, 3GB of RAM and a 320GB hard drive all for $1,000 less than the MBP. For me, this met my needs, though for others these features may be unnecessary and the MB/MBP may be more than enough for them. It's just personal preference and what meets your needs and I truly believe that one is not inherently better than the other.
That being said, Apple's marketing does get to me sometime. A Mac is just as much a PC as a Windows PC is, and honestly Linux can be way more beautiful and more powerful than both Vista or OSX. The whole mag-safe battery cord issue also really annoyed me, as it was far from an Apple innovation. Those have been on Japanese appliances for years and I have appreciated them in my kitchen throughout my eight years in Japan. I really wish the Mac/PC debate would stop being portrayed as a battle between the cool and uncool or the elite and the masses. It just comes down to what you need and what you like, and whatever you choose doesn't make you better, cooler or more elite than anyone else. It's all just personal preference and should really not be an issue. -
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You may not see it because you can not see what has been deleted. It was a lot. -
i love apples because of their ipods
i hate apples because of their fanbois , not because 'normal' mac users -
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thanks. one of the better reviews. too bad the thread's been taken over by querrelsome mac and windows fanboys.
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Like I said, I don't CARE about what computer anyone buys. If they want a Mac, by all means go get one. But don't bother me about. Leave me alone. Don't act like you're better because you have a prettier calculator. A lot of people who do own a Mac don't leave me alone. Yes, many people just go on with their daily lives (many thanks to you all, and enjoy your computer), but there are always those few people that have to brag about their Mac, and how they're better than me.
Like I said, I don't know why you found the need to pick at my post, but I'm not too pleased about it. Use your Mac or whatever, but don't bother me about it.
It's a CALCULATOR. -
I am free to post to this thread just as you are as long as we stay within forum guidelines. That being said, do you think I care if you are "pleased" or not what said in reply to your post? I stand by what I said, it's silly to hate a company because of how the customer reacts to the product they buy from them.
You should re-read your post, it made me chuckle. If your buddy wants to buy a Mac to get girls then so what? Why would you hate Apple over that?
If people that buy Macs feel that they are better than you or better than ALL PC users then so be it, it's not Apple's fault. In fact, you ought to be applauding Apple for creating such beautiful notebooks like the Macbook in question in the review. If people buy only for beauty (and MANY people buy cars for beauty alone) then that's another earned sale for Apple.
If the customer wants to act like an elitist for buying a Mac then that superior act is on the customer, again, why would that cause you to hate Apple? That's senseless.
I just bought a Miele vacuum cleaner, it's the best vacuum money can buy and trust me some people will feel superior to others with this machine, BUT I DON'T. Am I suppose to hate the Miele company because their customers feel superior? NO.
Honestly, I think you need help if you are going to hate Apple because of it's customers.
BTW, it was you that mentioned in post #17 that Windows machines were "Normal PC's" when comparing Macs to them, your post was a bit on the elitist side. -
"Normal PCs" as in what Apple refers to PCs as (computers that run Windows). They are both PCs in the end.
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Some constructive criticism / feedback:
Also, for your battery tests for both cases, I believe you should be more precise in what settings you used (i.e., the Power Saver setting under Vista, screen brightness? WiFi/BlueTooth on/off ? Speakers muted?)
All in all a nice in-depth review. I have been wanting to buy a Mac for the longest time, and the rumored Mac Mini refresh coming next week at MacWorld just might be my best bet -
HLDan, I don't think there would be any complaining from PC users if Apple's notebooks had equivalent hardware to match up with the Windows equivalents. The frustration with Apple and their customers is when they insist build quality and aesthetics justify what's sometimes a $300-$1000 price tag difference over a Windows based notebook with better hardware specifications.
Apple is not the "Miele" of notebooks -- They're to the notebook world what Bose is to the home and personal audio market. -
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I still don't get your point, if Windows customer don't like Apple's M.O or their product offerings then they should choose something else, there's no reason to complain. Isn't that what we all do? If a product we are looking at doesn't meet our needs then we buy what does? Why crap on the product,(such as the Macbook in question) just don't buy.
The Windows crowd has no right to complain, what are they complaining about, they weren't screwed. If they bought a Macbook and expected more then they didn't do their homework point blank. -
Yes, apple and bose go hand-in-hand. Both are overpriced for what you get, and both come highly recommended by people who follow advertisements like sheep and don't do enough research for themselves... but at the same time they are different because apple builds overpriced quality products and bose builds overpriced mediocre products. At least all apple needs to adjust is their prices IMO.
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Apple's products are only overpriced to people who don't want to buy them, or can't afford them.. -
@ saintalfonzo: Well,same qualifies for AW,since it is overpriced compared to Clevo,and to sony,since it is overpriced compared to HP/Dell,and to HP/Dell,since they are overpriced compared to Acer,and to Acer,since it is overpriced compared to...
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It's not to say at all that Apple makes bad products, but there's no way you can be ignorant to the type of marketing and hype that Apple puts out, and the people that buy Apple products like it's their religion.... The cult of Apple... it's just not right...
Oh, and sure you like your Bose system, but talk to anyone who actually knows sound equipment, IE an "audiophile", and they will prove to you how much money you wasted on Bose. It's not idiotic, it's truth, and you fell for millions of dollars of advertising... not that you are the first or last.
Doesn't really matter though, if you're happy with your purchase then good for you. All people who are against something like Bose (which I don't think is quite comparable to Mac's, at least Mac offers a different OS from any other Windows PC which somewhat explains the higher price), but people are against these products because you can get more product for less money... But in the end nobody should deny that it's YOUR choice. -
Same goes for Apple's customers, your post was sorta talking down to your own self ya know? You're saying that Apple's commercials are what create this "cult" of elitist people? By you saying that you are saying that any company can "make" humans (such as yourself) behave badly based on how they advertise?
DUDE, Apple can tout all day how great and perfect the Macbook or any of their products are but at the end of the day it's up to me if I decide to become an elitist jerk about it.
Also, yes I have viewed a lot of Apple's commercials, have you? The majority are of a PC guy touting how great Vista is and telling the world not to buy a Mac. I haven't seen Apple YET do a commercial that offered a Mac with features that showed superiority over a Windows PC. Anything prior to the last 12 months have been about Vista issues which were true (in my own experience) which is why my sig says what it says. -
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Excellent review! Very insightful.
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I'm sorry, but chiclet keyboards are a complete joke for any real work. They are fine for casual users (web surfing, some office)... but that's about it.
Apple has crossed the line when it comes to style vs substance. -
HLDan,
There's animosity towards Apple since the most prominent elitist salvos are launched by Apple and their cult of followers towards PC users. Our argument is one step off from the argument you're making.
You say let users buy what they want to buy. Okay, that's fine, but it must also be acknowledged that the swarm of Apple marketing insists that their product is tangibly better in ways other than just an OS, which a hardware analysis simply does not support.
Bose isn't the ideal example, no example is, but it's equivalent in the sense that Bose is bought by a massive number of uneducated consumers who have bought into marketing hype and truly believe that the hardware is worth the premium price they're paying.
Regarding working in a home audio store and just letting your ears do the evaluation, no major home electronics chain would even carry true audiophile quality brands and systems. Swarms of people insist Sony earbuds and Skullcandy earbuds are amazing but that's because they've never even heard of Shure, or Etymotic, or any other number of high quality audio brands. -
So you've watched the commercials, and having a fat guy being Vista and looking like an idiot is not your idea of Mac claiming they are the greatest? All their commercials are are cheap shot after cheap shot of crap. Of course Vista has had problems, most of them were gone after a couple months, and basically everything has been wrapped up with SP1. I've been using it since 3 months after it was released and I roll my eyes at every Mac ad because they are simply ridiculous.
So basically you see it, but you miss the point, IMO of course. The Mac commercials don't say they have a superiority over Windows PC's, instead all they do is try and make Windows look bad, which translates into Mac fans trying to use all those commercials against anyone who uses a Windows PC. I have friends who own Mac's and are constantly telling me how my laptop sucks because it has Windows and how I should change because of how superior Mac's are. So just because you are not an elitist snob doesn't mean they don't exist. -
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I really like a lot of the features of this notebook, but its over priced. I think Apple knows this too. They have a legion of early adopters that will plunk down extra to have Apple's latest - including me. In a few months they will drop the price saying components are cheaper - which is silly (the bill of goods on this notebook is not over $600 - common iSupply, back me up).
The case is made from one of the most common materials in the world, using a 30 year old technique. Kudos to Apple for thinking of applying CNC machining of billet aluminum to notebook casings first, this alone does not justify the cost. Neither does iLife08.
At $999 I would be happy to see this in the hands of more people. And the old plastic version should be even cheaper. I've never considered Apple to be elitist stuff - to me they are like VW, made for the masses (not hardware geeks like me).
Sorry for being a consumer advocate. All the folks that like over paying can just keep doing that. I expect there will be a lot of open box deals in the next few weeks on these notebooks - that would be my recommendation.
I like having four USB 2.0 ports - surprised I missed that. -
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If the new mini has the 9400m chipset I will get one too. I hope they leave the socket - then you could have a quad core mini. Why? Why not? -
Windows 7 is going to close the floodgates of users leaving Windows and then Apple will have to be happy with what share they grabbed over these past two years. If I was a share holder I would not be happy. Profits at 8% marketshare are nice, but what could Apple do at 20%? It would not take drastic profit reductions to make their base models more affordable.
I also think there is a risk of new converts going back to Windows when they hear how good it is and they decide they need a new rig -
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"Apple's OS seems to do a better job handling memory than Vista. Immediately after booting the amount of RAM used is 327 MB. This figure is amazing. Not only does Apple produce an Operating system that is light years more polished than Windows Vista, but it actually uses half as much RAM."
Why do Mac fanboys keep repeating this hyperbolic BS???
Or did I miss something? Does the Mac OS X now support and interface with as many different devices as Windows can? Can Mac OS X now accomodate enterprise and corporate requirements (manageability, expandability, flexibility, compatibility, etc.) as well as the usual consumer needs? Can the Mac OS X run the millions of software out there (including those written 20 years ago) as Windows can (backward-compatibility) ?
If the answer is "no" to all of these questions, then these OS' aren't even in the same league. So don't try to compare these two different species of animal. -
i dont see any apple's "winnings" before they release their meh...i mean macbooks -
Boot Camp offers a single control panel for configuring Apple's hardware. I had some issues with the track pad working properly in Vista. Specifically I could not get the mouse button to stay 'clicked' when click dragging to make a selection. The right click never registered either. Eventually I gave up and attached a mouse.
The reviewer mentions this problem, but doesn't care to investigate why. A really good reviewer would have done the research, and know that the drivers Apple provides are the cause. Apple has now updated the trackpad driver, however you still cannot perform a simple right click by just clicking the right hand side of the trackpad, like in OS X. Any Mac fans care? Didn't think so.
As you can see, without Apples software wizardry the MacBook struggles to attain decent battery life.
Same goes for battery life in Windows. We all know it's horrible compared to OS X. And horrible compared to other equal PCs running Windows. A correct review would not just state this fact, but also at least try to understand why. And here's the shock: it's not because power management in Windows sucks. Any Mac fans interested in the real reasons? Didn't think so. Apple should clearly state that the "portability" is limited on their notebooks when running Windows, and state the true reason why.
In summary, this is a great little notebook that I feel is priced too high. Maybe the high price is to control demand, is Apple worried that they wont be able to build enough of these things if they were priced appropriately? What is an appropriate price?
Sometimes the most simple answer is the correct one: Apple always goes for a quite high profit. Works fine so far, but will not make them reach 20% market share.
Keeping the old plastic MacBook model in the lineup as an olive branch to the value conscious is strange. Its $999 price point acknowledges the unrealistic entry price of the new MacBook, but in and of itself is no bargain either. Its hard to imagine that in the current economic climate that Apple wont introduce something to compete with netbooks and entry level machines from Acer and Dell (which are often much better than their prices imply). Maybe this January holds the answer.
I quote Steve Jobs: "We dont know how to build a sub-$500 computer that is not a piece of junk." In other words, they could do it, but then they would only get 20% profit or something...
And as far as I recall, the older plastic MacBook was a piece of junk. The palmrest cracked because of a clear design flaw, and Apple never cared to fix it. Just replace the casing over and over. So apparently they know how to build a piece of junk for much more than $500.
The reviewer also didn't mention Apple's new mini-DisplayPort, from what I can see. Nothing good to say about it, right? Need to pay for an adapter to even be able to connect to any screen device. Does it carry audio or not? No one really knows. Well, my bet is that it magically will in the next revision of Apple products. Or stay disabled on the MacBook, be enabled later on the MacBook Pro. Just in the typical Apple spirit.
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Personally I think Apple supports bootcamp very well for you Windows lovers. Lots of features on the Macbook are NOT really needed in Windows such as support for the iSight camera, backlit keyboard and such. The whole idea of having Windows installed on a Mac was to bridge gaps for people who want to rid themselves of the world of PC. Many of you say the Macbook is "Overpriced", yes it's expensive but it natively runs 3 of the major operating systems worldwide without any special hacks or violating any licensing terms. Can you do this with a common Windows PC? Slightly but only with Linux, which by the way does run on the Macbook as well.
If you want the best experience and features for Windows then a Macbook is NOT for you. "BUY A PC" like the ad says. Afterall it IS a MACINTOSH computer ya know. -
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great review. looks like it spurred some great discussion on here (once you weed through the mac love hate).
I really appreciated your benchmarks in the games you tested.
I wanted to contribute a small tidbit: I noticed audio performance problems in Vista because of the HD Audio Codec driver not getting enough CPU time. XP doesn't have this problem.
Apple MacBook User Review Discussion
Discussion in 'Notebook News and Reviews' started by -, Dec 31, 2008.