anyone know how to make vapor cooler?

i've just recently dismantled my USB cooler as it BLOWS air, not sucks, basically recycling hot air. I got 3 fans from it (about 5cm diameter). And i've got 2 pieces of 3mm thick clear acrylic (40cm long by 5.5cm wide) from old school projects.

I've been really interested in the new ATI cards vapor cooling that can dissipate a lot of heat. So does anyone know how to make a vapor cooler?

 

That involves taking water, and vacuum sealing it in a copper plate. The water is heated by the processor, converted to a vapor in a copper mesh, and the heat is better spread along the far side of the copper plate.

I do not see this as a plausible home build. Unless you can vacuum seal water in a copper plate with a copper mesh. But if you could, I doubt you would be asking here how.

 

Sounds like a basic heat pipe using a liquid transfer medium.

 

You could try building a Peltier based cooling system.

 

Peltiers can be dangerous.


Anytime something is cooler than surrounding air you get condensation. Peltiers are great at doing this. Condensation in it's natural form isn't conductive, but any dust it contacts can make it conductive. Any dust can also make it corrosive.

Years ago Peltiers were considered to be the next big thing in computer cooling (particularly for overclockers), until reports started coming in of condensation causing corrosion and short circuits. If you don't go overboard, and run the fan the right direction, you can minimize the condensation. I ran one (properly sized for my cpu) for almost a year without issue. 6 months later I pulled out the cpu to change the motherboard I found corrosion on the pins, I was lucky.

 

pfff, you guys arent helping much.

This is what you need:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling_tower

if your going extreme, might as well go all the way.

Anyway why are you needing other than the inbuild system? Or is it just for fun?

 

for fun with so much material at hand, its a waste NOT to try to make something (which i love). i was thinking about making it like this:


its not going to be built INTO the laptop of course. just underneath.

the Peltier thing interests me as well. I kinda forgot the principle of how it works, but isn't it about passing electricity through 2 copper plates? Might try to find some old copper from past electrolysis experiments...

 

There are ways around the condensation short circuit/corrosion problem that have been around a long time, using foam, grease, paint, and plenty of other creative things to insulate the electrical components that are cooler than the surrounding air. The main problem with peltiers is that they stopped being effective a while ago. Overclocked CPU's began to put out 200 watts or more. To cool something like that would require a monster of a peltier that would itself have to put out far more than the CPU to keep the CPU below ambient temperatures. The thing is that these super powerful peltiers are expensive and super hard to get a hold of, the peltier/cpu combo would require tremendous amounts of cooling, and the cooling system would be horribly inefficient. Any water cooling system that can cool 550 watts or more to temperatures that aren't too much above ambient is going to do a far better job simply cooling a CPU. Right now the only ways to go below ambient on a CPU are evaporative coolers made from refrigeration systems and the like, and chilled water cooling. The fact that air and water cooling have gotten so much better than they once were and the inviability of peltier cooling on modern processors pretty much killed it.

No, not even close. I highly recommend you don't use a peltier. If you plan to cool air with it, it isn't going to work. It will only heat the air up, if anything.

 

um... what is it that you're doing with your laptop that requires such massive cooling?

shouldn't the standard cooling provided with the laptops supply borderline adequate cooling for the system, therefore, just a slight help ie, regular cooling pad and such be enough?

and can you provide a link to this ATI vapor cooling that you speak of?
if it is just a heatpipe that connects to a large heatsink, it's nothing new... and already exists in your laptop...

and just noted your location... Jakarta and KL... you probably get a lot of moisture eh? do you stay indoors in air conditioned environment?
if so, just get a 3" flexible duct

duct tape one end to your AC unit

duct tape the other end to a modded laptop cooler and voila!

peltier or any other cooling system will not be very efficient in terms of heat removal or cost... main reason being that the cooling loop will probably NEVER come in direct contact with the heat source... in order for these closed loop cooling systems to work, it has to be in direct contact with the heat source...

you look at most desktop cooling systems, Air cooling involves a copper or alum block that is in contact with the cpu then heat pipes carry heat over to the HSF...
liquid cooling system has a CPU block that is in full and direct contact also... and a liquid that is forced through the block.

same applies for Peltier and other cooling systems.

if you are not opening up your laptop and going crazy... peltier and liquid cooling and whatnot is not as efficient as a simple flexi tube off your AC... you have a barrier of air that will do do a good job of moving heat along...

you can try to increase the static pressure of the air hitting the HSF unit of your laptop... it has been shown that increased static pressure improves the performance of radiators... but then, dunno what it will do to your fans...

just some random thoughts...

 

1)not enough surface area to really have effect on the air that travels over it very quickly...

2)water or liquid will eventually reach ambient (room temp) hence same temp as the air passing over it.

3)splash? damn, i'd be worried to have so much liquid near my laptop...

 

Quite true, but many keep in mind, there is no way to be sure your condensation protection is working. Plus if something dies, it becomes a serious hassle to get to the CPU. Something modern phase change has trouble with too.

Another issue about Peltiers, is how much power they require. You will pretty much require a second power supply, and for the peltier to run right, most need a higher voltage than 12volts. 600 watt 17volt (I think it is) power supplies aren't exactly common or cheap.

1400 watts in a computer is about half the electricity of running your air conditioner. It's not going to be cheap.

 

you could solder something based on how you solder plumbing, and try running water through it or something.

But i want to ask a much simpler question. do most "socket P" laptop motherboards have the same screw spacing? in other words, if you were running a laptop motherboard out of its casing, could you attach a non oem or maybe even a desktop cooler.

you would have to know that or start with something to build any cooler in the first place so...

 

kinghong : not that i do super intensive stuff, but this lappy runs HOT at over 88 C. Idle temps are 60+. I've done everything in my power to keep it cool (undervolt, dusted etc etc) probably because the fan is near worthless. And yes, its in an air-conditioned place (temp of 24C). So is my design still plausible? Not that i care too much about splash since it won't be mine in about 2 weeks time (handing it over to my dad) and i have a whole tube of sealant.

leslieann : @@ ok...didn't know peltiers needed so much power. thanks for the info!

niffcreature : i don't have a soldering iron available. nor would i think my dad would be really happy to see his soon-to-be laptop have plumbing.

 

I don't think the vedge shaped cooler design ill work very well.

vaporcooling probably uses the fact that it takes energy to vaporize a liquid. This energy is therefore not spent increasing the temperature. But after you have vaporized it you need the liquid to go somewhere else to cool off. In that vedge design all you do is add a temperature buffer which will take more time to heat up when you want the hotter-than-air liquid to go to some heatsink away from the computer where it turns into a liquid again heating up the heatsink. the heatsink then gets cooled off by the air so the end result is that you use the vapor to transport the heat to a spot away from the sensitive parts.

I should add that this is a speculation from my part but it is based on physical laws

 

how would the liquid heat up the cooler? When gas turns to liquid, heat energy is released, and that would be cooled by the fans. And isn't the end result precisely what a cooler is for? To absorb and transport heat away from sensitive parts.

but if you think that the wedge won't work, can you please post some ideas on design?

 

melthd, you're not considering the main point here... in what you're trying to do, without any soldering or direct contact for the liquid to the heat source, there is not enough of heat transference from source to cooling.

take a look here and do some readings...
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/index.php

this section is dedicated to liquid cooling a desktop
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=70

this section is dedicated to TEC/peltier
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=94

this section is for vapor cooling
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80

let's look at liquid cooling for example.
the water block is in direct contact, with thermal paste, to eliminate spaces, between the cpu and the block.
the insides of the water block is designed to offer as much surface area so there is clear physical contact between the coolant and the heat source via copper block and TIM.

let's say you have designed a cooling device...
let's even assume that you have opened the bottom panels of your laptop.
still, there is a couple mm of air between the computer and the cooling pad.

furthermore, the cpu on your laptop probably have heatpipes and a HSF unit that ducts the heat away...

speculation here also but take a canister of CO2 that is commonly used in BB guns... or even just a can of compressed air... you release it and then there's phase change from liquid to vapor.... it takes the energy (heat) from surrounding areas and hence, the can gets very cold if you deplete a can of compressed air in one shot.

now, you are not just going to make it one way, right? you're looking into a constant and closed loop system so you do not constantly use up compressed air... hence units such as refridgerators and air conditioners have a compressor unit that uses electricy to, in turn, compress it back to liquid form...

this is a big undertaking...

keep your wedge block, forget the liquid, and feed it cold air from an AC unit... that's probably your best and least intrusive way...

just my humble opinions...

cheers!

 

also, here's a link to ATI's vapor cooling method used in their video cards...

got news for you... the vapor cooling method is basically used already in the copper or aluminum pipes that you see leading from your cpu block to the HSF unit.

all it serves at the moment is to transfer heat from one point to another.
as the CPU gets hot, it heats up the copper or aluminium block, that in turn transfers the heat to the tubes...

inside the tubes, the liquid heats up and turns to vapor... on the other hand, the outer surfaces and the area nearing the HSF unit, the vapor turns to liquid again and hence cycle repeats in a closed loop.

but again, key note here... if it is not in direct contact with the heat source, it does not cool much...

all forms of cooling, the key concept is to be ONE with the heat source, or as close to it as possible.

rely on the current cooling system on your laptop... feed it more air and make the current cooling system more effective... else, go get a soldering gun...

 

eeek...thats a hell lot to read. I'll slowly go through them thanks a lot for your input!

though its true that theres no direct contact, you wouldn't believe how much heat is transferred by radiation with this err...hot plate. I once put a plastic bag under this thing, and it actually half melted. Had a whole patch of white stuff on my desk. Thats how hot it gets.

yep i did my research on ATI's vapor cooling, which was what got me interested in this whole crazy idea. well..i'll have a read on those forums first. Might scrap this idea, or just build a barely functional one just for show

 

Heat transfer from radiation should be negligible... unless your laptop is glowing : /

That is conduction/convection (probably convection). Also, i don't think you will get the results you are looking for by doing this, all you will be doing is cooling the air coming out of your laptop with that system, since all the heat will eventually have to rejoin the surroundings anyway the air intake will be about the same temperature.


As for peltiers... battery life? what battery life.

These things produce a hell of a lot of heat, while you may cool your cpu you will need a larger cooling system to remove the heat coming from them and they chew up enough power that people who use them in desktops often have dual PSU for them.

So far as cooling a laptop your best bet is just to keep it in a well ventilated area on a hard flat surface. Other options could include changing some of the internal fans for a higher air throughput.

 

SIMPLE way to keep a really hot laptop cool, get some LARGE freezer packs, toss a towel over them then sit the laptop ON that. change packs every 2 hours

 

i'll be cooling the air and plastics right beneath the CPU. Net transfer of heat will go there. So yes, while its cooling, it'll also pull heat away from the CPU.

oo crazycanuk...nice idea!!

 

then you will love my really stupid general cooling unit ( as long as you work near a sink )

pull the heater core from a small car, run hose from both inlet and outlet pipes ( one needs a fitting for your tap )

Mount the heater core a in a framework with 2 or 3 120MM case fans below it

run COLD water through the heater core and presto !! .. just dont run fans too fast as you will want the condensation to fall down and not be blown up into the computer

I used to use something similar as a heat exchanger for a rather custom and heavily overclocked server