Consortium to build awesome laptop?

I had an idea, what do you think to a consortium of computer lovers putting some cash into building the perfect laptop?

It would cost an awful lot of money but I think it could work with the right people and preparation.

 

it could but that would be a pain and it depends on how we plan to "make" it would we contact a a ODM and make them build it for us or find a couple of computer enginerer and desing it with them then contact people with manufacturing capacbilities

at first we would need to define what we wann in it

 

They already have the perfect laptop...

It's called a Panasonic Toughbook

 

Im going to agree with you. now all we need is a CF-31 with a 5870 or one of those upcoming 6800's so I can game on the road too

 

Fully rugged liquid cooled Alienware would be nice. I bet it would weigh 50 lbs after we put every option possible tho. People trying to steal it wouldn't get far.

 

Perfection is different things to different people.

Perfect for what use?

 

Unless it was a "system" that was completely modular(heavy and very expensive), I don't think it would work. Even then you get into varying size and weight needs. Even in this very loyal Toughbook forum, everyone who owns a CF 29 has a different need/idea/mod for their personal machine. I think it's a interesting yet impossible concept. If it was possible, then Panasonic, Dell, or Apple would be selling them. Even Panasonic, who focus is on rugged laptops sells half a dozen different models in order to try to cover the marketplace.
Joe Soldier in the Afghan desert doesn't want an Imac or Dell that will self destruct at the first sign of sand. Just like Bob Billionaire doesn't want to lug around a 25lb hermetically sealed Toughbook from boardroom to boardroom.
If you can come up with the toughness of a Toughbook, idiotproof operation and use of a Mac, cost of a Wal Mart HP in an Asus EEE wieight class with the latest 16 core gaming CPU and GPU you may have something.

 

mine does all that I need,
so for me, it is perfect!

 

How perfect? What are we looking for? Mine does all but coffee.
It has Touchscreen, WIFi, BT, GPS, WWAN and all the standard toys. But also, I can drive on my Toughbook with my car, and it still works. I can trow it on other people, pick it up, turn it on and it still works. I can work with it outdoor in the sun, rain, snow, cold weather (-15f) no problem. I can spill water, juice, coffee, oil ... you name it, and it still works.
Why wasting more more money to develop somthing that already exist? We're having bad economy.
Lets use what we have PANASONIC TOUGHBOOK SERIES.

Good job guys, you are the best! ;-)

 

Coffee PC - ByteMods.com
http://www.boingboing.net/2002/12/08/coffeemaking_pc_case.html

 

LOL, can you find one for my Toughbook?

 

I'm sure you could contact clevo and get them to manufacture a ruggedised powerful notebook for you.

The problem would be that they would probably need a minimum order.

I'm guessing you would need at least 100 people to give you a deposit and it would get messy.

If you had $100,000 you could probably get them made and then sell them.

But getting 100 people to chip in and keep it all organised would be a nightmare.

However, if you did this, in the end the price per notebook could be pretty good, since you would save the cut a reseller usually takes.

I would be interested to find out some details, maybe someone wants to contact clevo (or any manufacturer) for fun. To check if they will agree to manufacture something for an individual and what the minimum order is and some estimate prices.

 

I want an eyephone that can run SC2 on Ultra.

 

You won't see flash player evAr. I wish my touchscreen comps would recognize more than one stylus/finger @ a time like my iFail 3gs. I find myself tapping the top of the screen to quickly scroll back up on occasions.

 

all I want is a capable laptop with a high screen res and battery life comparable to a macbook pro.

 

Whats a the batt life of a macbook pro? Reason I ask is my 29 on half bright screen, wireless on and keyboard backlit off I can squeeze off 4 and a half hrs with the non oem cheapo battery. 3 if I am gaming single player or online.

 

If the economy wasn't the way it was this could work. I barely see 40 people fully commit to a group buy start to finish for car parts that range $300 and under on a few of our car forums. For every new person that joins, 2 drop out halfway. You would have to collect it all in the beginning or someone is gonna get stuck with quite a few custom computers NIB stacked up in their 2 bedroom apt.

 

Yeah, I've emailed some manufacturers like that for fun... even just asking them to built converters, I get no response.
For comparison, go to Alibaba.com or a site like that where you can see some real manufacturers. Most of their products have a higher minimum order than 100 and these are simple items that have already been designed.

Unless everyone got together and built an HM55 motherboard Sierra Circuits, Inc. Quick Turn Printed Circuit Boards and Assembly

A ruggedized, water cooled Alienware however would not be too difficult.

Thats actually a really cool idea - what your talking about is getting a custom machined case, which someone would have to make in CAD but the 'consortium' could design collectively. We would probably have to go with aluminum. There are a lot of companies that will take commissions for that sort of thing, but mag-alloy would probably be harder to find.

Custom water cooling would not be impossible to build either, its been done.

It still wouldn't be perfect though... and it would be hard to get motherboards alone, maybe clevo would be better for that. You'd be stuck with their basic design, port layout, form factor etc.

The only 'perfect laptop' really would have to be a case which could fit any motherboard while being rugged, lightweight, thin, and not hideous + availability to OEM motherboards at reasonable prices. The first part seems pretty much impossible, but I honestly think its possible to get pretty close. It would be completely crazy, probably everything shockmounted with no screws touching the components.

We should do it!
not my second idea LOL unless there is enthusiasm... The custom machined case + water cooling thing, maybe for a Clevo w860cu...

anyone think theyre good enough with CAD?

 

I would like to see what designs people come up with, even if this thing never gets off the ground.

 

A rather large amount of Toughbook owners seem to have come out of the Panasonic lair for some reason...

I think I see why.

 

I think this thread was moved here from the toughbook sub-forum.

 

There is no cute rhyme for once you go panny, you'll never go back. (my wife suggested something, something, tranny, but I don't think it was appropriate)

But yeah, once you own one, it's obvious.

 

That wouldn't really be a problem.. The MacBook's battery is nothing unique.

 

I am horrible at shotgun quotes. 1 tag missed in copy pasta and it's like you broke the entire internet.

*This thread originated here, we just saw the light on and walked in. It kinda got boring with just us here, we were hoping the rest of the forums would make it in too. Clearly we already had an idea between us with all our background and field testing of our systems.

*Mentioned liquid because of the fanless design of my 29. The only thing I can hear in total silence(sound is on mute) is key strokes. Not even the hard drive is audible unless you put your ear to the machine. Only thing that makes mechanical noise is the cd/dvd drive I barely use. If we go down the fully rugged route the fluid would need anti freeze properties.

*Yes I wish there were true barebones laptop cases so you can build your own like the desktop market. That way you could pick the screen size and level of performance you want. Since I have a quad cpu for my desktop I don't need a performance matching laptop. Since I'm not running any extensive software for my job, I cant justify the i7 cpu Micro Center has on sale for $999.99

*Would also like to see the designs from others across the board. Maybe we could get lucky and the right person comes and takes it and run wit it(not steal it). If the deadline was far enough out, I could get the money for such system.

*Yeah I'm on my third toughbook in about 3 months. Once you get past all of the semi or fully rugged talk, there isn't much out there that looks like it. It's like being that guy with the actual HMMWV XM1116 and everyone else has H2's and H3's with all this flashy chrome extras and creature comforts.

*As I was saying earlier, after stating my battery time I ended up getting the low battery light @ 4 hrs and 56 mins. I was trying my best to "Hypermill" it to 5 hrs flat but it didn't make it.

 

well thats the thing - i think companies who do simple machining will take orders of 1.

but it would still be a waste unless it was a good design...

 

There are a few axioms to be mindful of here:

good | fast | cheap
you may only pick 2
(sorry to whoever it is here at NBR, I forget who's signature that came from)

"yeah, I can build whatever you want, how much $ do you want to spend" (I say that to clients ALL THE TIME)

If you can build it, you can break it
If you can break it, you can fix it

The question is "is it worth it?"

Part of the reasoning behind my panny 29 being perfect is cost effeciency... Sure, I could design an even more perfect "my toughbook", but I don't have, oh, $20k to spend....

 

Fixed it

 

just gotta look at the tags objectively

Is it actually liquid cooled? does your case ever get warm anywhere?
I'd guess its more like a passive heatsink... i mean those things arent waterproof are they?

Maybe I'll get started... not that i have ever used a CAD program but I'm pretty good with blender which can export to autodesk or something. structural integrity, design and shockmounting have become part of the way i fundamentally think lately.
One of the laptop manufacturers that reminds me most of desktops is MSI.
@Moral_Hazard: do you know if the gx620 and gx640 actually use the same case?
I mean, it really is 16:10 & Calpella isnt it... that alone is amazing compared to other manufacturers.

Heres are some things I imagine in a 'true barebones laptop case'... thats a good term btw.
-No sides, because of the port layouts. Palmrest and bottom case would have to be incredibly rigid as they would only be connected to each other by the corners.
-One of the biggest problems is the port layout, I think a pretty good solution is to have custom made sides for every motherboard, sort of like a bezel. The way these would fit into the rest of the case would be standardized, but they could still be simple enough to be affordable.
-The thickness of the case would be scalable.
Something more specific:
-Shockmounting the motherboard with screw offsets... this is difficult to describe, another custom part relying on the motherboard... basically you would have a metal frame of thin steel like how some heatsinks are fastened down. On one side of the frame, you'd have something (probably hard rubber rather than screws) holding the motherboard in place and matching the screw hole layout. The other side would have a screw layout that was again standardized to the case, thus shockmounting the whole thing.

I think 20k is a BIG exaggeration for this. As a matter of fact I think the multiple pieces I'm talking about would decrease the cost.
Especially because all the pieces that would be specific to the motherboard wouldn't need machining, they could be punched out of sheets of metal.

I really don't know enough about physics or whatever to act like I know what I'm talking about compared to actual manufacturers. But frankly - I'm not so sure manufacturers know what they are doing either - laptops really only been around for a few decades, and the favored building materials (for high end or business grade systems) have changed, what, 3 times?

I dont think rigidity is as much of a plus as its made out to be - the more rigid something is, the more it transfers, not absorbs shock. So what are they trying to do, protect your case? of course its more durable than the motherboard and other components.
Think about the construction of cars. They are made to 'crumple'. Why? to absorb shock.
You know what car accidents would even be like if cars had rigid outer bodies? Horrible! They would literally bounce around for like minutes!
but i digress......

 

i dunno...
i'd bet there are people who have had to make a difficult decision on whether to get a change or an ultra ruggedized laptop.
just saying.

 

close to 8 hours surfing.

absolutely, there is nothing special about it, no magic at all, its just that PC manufacturers don't care.

 

For 1 (or a handful)? Remember, we aren't going to be cranking out 20k, only several hundred at best. Making a handful costs twice per unit what it would cost to make 1000.

Basic machining $60-$100/hr
Custom 3d cnc machining try $100-$400/hr
Not to mention our special choice in alloy
Think about all the detail in all those little pieces
I charge $65/hr to do cad. A project like this would take upwards of 30 hours to draw, revise, and "perfect", as a low ball estimate
Custom engineered mobo that has that versatility, $1k-$10k depending on what it has, and how many you order

Now, to use a pc104 mobo as a base would be a good place to start. versitile, expandable, and realatively cost effective at next to nothing to several hundred dollars each. Hell, if you order 50-100 of'm, you can get them customized at about $300-$400 each, depending on hardware.

The pc104 architecture is just like that desktop components, with a little power more saving, and the cards are stackable with thier special 104 pin headers... So, theoreticly, one could re-engineer your favorite pci/agp cards to that spec.

Then we can machine a more basic Mg case, and just run connectors on leads to punchouts......

I've looked into this in the past for various purposes, and actually interfaced with different sales reps for exact quotes and what not.

Also, after a car gets crumpled, it costs several thousands of dollars to make it right again. Now me, i would rather be driving a Stryker (the Toughbook), and just get jostled a little bit, as opposed to being crumpled to shizzle like a geo metro (regular laptop).
The guts need to be ready for shock, but they have to be in a case that can withstand impact, not crumple, and then not need to be replaced constantly.

just a few thoughts

 

I thought it did, but then some guy in the MSI forum said he bought the back cover for the GT627 to use with his GX640 (to drill holes in it) and it didn't fit correctly.

So they may have made some very small changes to the plastics.

 

They are sealed units running a low voltage cpu with passive heatsink on the bottom. Depending on if you place it on a surface that reflects the heat back or insulates the heat around the unit, the hard drive may heat up the palm rest(Both my sata and pata drop in caddy). I've seen YouTube videos of the CF-29 and CF-30 left out in the rain or in a sink of running water but I have yet to try and test that theory. Same for tossing it out the window @ freeway speeds. I got it to lessen my chances of breaking it, not prove the manufacturers claims wrong. I'm pretty sure fluid will have a sound as it gets pumped thru the notebook. I was just throwing that out there if we decide to use a processor that runs on the hot side.

 

To make it for a realistic price, best bet would be to choose an existing motherboard and design your case around it.

What I was thinking was that you could try put together a notebook from existing parts from other notebooks (maybe surplus left over parts that you can get for cheap prices), then just have the case designed so that it would work well with the parts you have.

For example, just take the guts from the X7200 and put it in your own rugged case.
But since most people want good battery life, better to choose a motherboard from a notebook that supports optimus.

 

We can also go semi rugged if weight is an issue. Also if you decide on swapping out things later that we can't on a traditional fully rugged model. Our ToughBooks also have the option to run a 2nd battery in the media bay if we want "record setting" battery life.

 

MB batteries are great we were getting 10-12 hours of run time 4 years ago on many models. wish everyone would let us pull that stunt with laptops

 

Sorry if anyones tired of the broken up quotes

Sure, like I said might have to go with aluminum. but there are 100% automatic services for machining... I cant imagine they'd want you to pay 100$/hr for the use of a computerized system!

These companies I've heard of do it directly from a CAD file. Which I can write.
So no, I'm not going to pay anyone for design costs.
Also the 'tiny parts' are something I might cut out of sheets with metal shears and use a drill or dremel to finish
...not even to prove the point of cost effectiveness, but the point that more of these things can be made with ones hands.

thats a very good idea too - i've thought about it before.
What did you learn from the sales reps? what boards where you looking at?

Liantec has a pm45 one with MXM 3.0b in development (could be released now)

They've got LVDS output too, which is awesome and many manufacturers will custom make the cable for you i think... meaning you can use literally any LCD you can find.

Yeah I've got a cost effective solution pc-104 motherboards, like 7$ each at my surplus store....
pentium II i think

I also have just the VGA modules with LVDS output in PC104, 1mb... and the datasheet says 'hardware cursor support' lol

Yes, very true, 1000$ but they are also 20k in the first place.

You missed my point, in a lot of ways... I mean its hard to explain...
-Firstly, few laptops crumple. Actually none. A laptop that crumpled would not be 'normal' at all.
-Secondly... OK the actual case is extremely rigid and strong. I'd bet it would survive a 100ft drop, but do you think your motherboard is going to work after that? In other words... we're not talking about being jostled here, we're talking about the seatbelt breaking your collarbone
-Thirdly, if your toughbook is a stryker, then how much does it weigh? Heres an incredibly quick estimate: if 1 ton geometro = 5 lbs normal/smallish laptop, then 16 tons stryker = your toughbook @ 96lbs.
-You don't get jostled in a stryker for several reasons, but reason number 1 is the weight, number 2 is the speed it can go at that weight. I dont even want to bring up what a stryker on stryker crash would be like at 80mph. But it doesn't apply to laptops anyway - because cars stay on the ground, more weight on a laptop means a harder fall.
-Its not the whole car that is doing the crumpling - just the body. The frame is built built incredibly strong.

Now I wasnt just trying to break apart the metaphor (although isnt there are rule against car/laptop metaphors? )
I find this really interesting to think about and productive.

The scale of everything involved really offsets things however. But since laptops are generally some feet from the ground, I think they would need to absorb even more shock proportionally. If I'm going to bring that up I should say that circuits are probably more durable than humans (proportionately)

I just really think (ok, really big picture here) that the computer manufacturing and design industry is just more diverse the auto but really any other industry. there are MORE types of smaller industries, they all are well capable of interfacing with each other and other technologies but they remain VERY separate.
I think this makes laptops generally a much bigger mess of a design. The industry is only unified enough to make things work.
Its really pretty obvious when you just take a step back. There are just a billion overdesigned things - in just one individual laptop! They 'happen' to fit together, but their manufacturers are all on really different paths...

 

this almost reinforces what I'm saying -
A second battery is a feature that is pretty darn easy to make for one.
But more importantly, "*Apple/Mac*" has little to nothing to do with batteries in general, other people have said it, but they're extremely simple in some ways. You could just replace the cells!

There are some big illusions about manufacturing and branding... not that you are blind to this crazycanuk at all... but the fact that we all know the actual batteries are made by other companies like samsung etc and still call them macbook batteries... what does that really mean about the way the entire world thinks about computers?

 

Aren't the ones used in Apple laptops (whatever brand the cells may be) Lithium Polymer battery chemistry, as opposed to Lithium Ion in most laptops?

 

most newer laptops ( last couple years ) use the exact chemistry in their batteries. the only ones using the new bat chemistry to get more recharges actually is HP and ASUS ( Boston Power batteries)
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/laptop-battery-boston-power-warranty,11064.html

Apple uses a standard Sanyo LiPo cell in their batts. but a different extremely SLOW charging circuit to hold a bit more of a charge and do more cycles. ( 4 hour charging vs. 1.5 hour normally )

I figure it means:

1: Apple as usual is doing an incredible job on marketing. Long bat life and Backlight keyboards were in machines owned by us Toughbook users since the EARLY 90's . Apple has ONE unique ccomponent and that is their Synaptics touchpad.


2: People dont normally research their laptop components or other manufacturers much. you can find advantages to ANY manufacturers design even if it is as small as a port layout or price.

3: People dont have a clue that 90% of laptops are all coming from the SAME factories !!!... AFIK the only laptops NOT OEM'd/ODM'd is Panasonic, ASUS and the Sony Z models. every other machine is cranked out by the likes of Quanta, Compal, Foxconn, and the rest of the bog OEM's. guess what your Dell XPS came from the same plant that builds your HP DV series

 

Now I remember this stuff. It was very relevant to when I used to play with high power electric radio controlled trucks. A fast charge would allow it to discharge faster (this is only good for electric motors, not laptops), and a slow one would allow a greater charging capacity.

 

I have to agree the Apple touchpad is unique. In Windows I call it the "Multi-OUCH" touchpad

 

That's why I said semi to cut down on costs. A laptop falling off a desk or counter kinda like this.

YouTube - Panasonic Toughbook- Super Bowl XL- The Cheshire Company

We can see how well the other sells then reinforce that same one to the MIL-STD 810G Spec

 

I should really subscribe to my own threads. I'm pleased I sparked discussion here.

I was thinking that if we did use the talents of people in the forums we could actually get something done.

I'm sure some people can call in favours and building another case around an existing laptop mobo sounds like a good place to start.

I've always found the idea of water cooling a laptop a little counter productive, I thought the whole point of a laptop is that it is portable whether its a desktop replacement or not. If you water cool something, you have to carry a crud tonne of water around with you. Its not exactly practical.

 

I agree, you don't need water cooling if you have 2 fans and quality heatsinks.

I think adamwest436 found the biggest problem with this:

 

Hmmm indeed. I still think its workable. If people have something to lose then they generally keep with it lol.

Mark Shuttleworth proposed the Free Software laptop (after I posted this i might add) He also started a wiki but its a bit of a mess and it doesn't seem too helpful. Maybe we can pull some real figures and specs together and ship it off to him. If he can see that what we propose is both workable and saleable then I'm sure he'd go for it.

 

A really great notebook should be solar/light powered.Its lid should have solar/light collector cells and still be as thin and presentable as today's modern lids.I am not suggesting we do away with battery alltogether.The battery will be continiously charged by the available light giving it that extra boost to achieve unreal times such as 24-48hours or even perpetual with proper exposure to light.

 

Hmm the theory is good, and might stack up pretty well but then you have to think of cost, the solar panels are currently very expensive. It would be really great but I fear not financially viable. Do you know of the potential costs at all?

 

You are right.Right now the costs are prohibitive.But as the OP said in our company there will be the best and the brightest minds.We will find a way to bring costs down or design it in such way that will require cheap materials and automated assembly.And of course we will patent it so this guy Bill(Gates I think) from Seattle doesn't steal our idea.

 

I don't think its Bill we gotta worry about, he doesn't make the hardware. It's the other fella down in Cupertino...