Higher grade devices

Well, I think I've about had it with cheap consumer routers. Every year I end up replacing my $100-150 router because it dies. I've had linksys, netgear, dlink --- all of them die.

Last night my 2.4ghz went out on my wndr3700... I need something stable.

I am considering going with business class gear, but I would be venturing into new territory. I think I want a gigabet router w/10-20 ports and an access point or two.

I figure, maybe if I buy a solid wired router, and just change out the wireless APs as technology changes, I would be good. I dunno if I am right in my thinking. I am not looking to drop a ton of money -- I don't need advanced security and all that, I am just looking for some rock solid equipment.

((I need wireless N and gigabit ports))

What do you all think, who makes some solid reasonably priced gear?

 

I am curious as to why your routers only last as you put it a year. There could be another underlying problem causing them to die out. Have you noticed if they were running hot. A minor electrical problem could cause them to burn out slowly like within a year. Just a thought.

 

That's pretty much how I do it. I've got a Zonet 4 port router (once upon a time the fastest soho router that smallnetbuilder ever tested) feeding a trendnet managed (layer 2/3) gigabit switch. My two wireless APs are hooked up directly to the router.

A Motorola SurfBoard 6120 talks to Comcast.

The switch has a pair of optical ports I'm planning to use to run fiber down to the gazebo and dock where I may or may not add a few more APs.

All that switched gigabit makes streaming audio/video pretty easy.

But everything is running off of a 1000VA Cyberpower UPS and is otherwise in a cool-ish closet with good airflow. And everything is surge protected at the main breaker panel. Whole-house surge protection including the incoming cable tv line costs about $200- installed.

Two things generally kill electronics though; heat and bad power.

 

That's one hell of a setup newsposter. Would you satisfy my curiosity and tell me what's the price-tag attached to all of this?
I know it's expensive- I just don't know how expensive yet...

 

I have experience using business-class Cisco routers (2600 series, 1841, etc). They are pretty tough machines and these things have been handled rough over the years (they were originally bought by the local community college for training, then my high school got them for Networking classes), and all of them still work. They are pretty easy to work with once you know how to use them; in my opinion, the IOS software is better than something like Tomato.

However, realize that you get what you pay for here. An 1841 on Amazon ranges from around $600 to nearly $1500 for a brand-new one. These kinds of routers also don't have the number of ports you want, so if you need 10-20 ports, you need a switch. A Cisco Catalyst 2960 switch with 24 ports runs for $876 (near the bottom for the search results for "cisco 2960").

 

The networking gear cost me a hair less than $500- spread out over a year or so. Not too bad.

Never pay retail, wait for sales. Look on ebay, craigslist, bankruptcy sales, etc.

The UPS and Surfboard cost me about $80 each. I think that the Surfboard can probably be had cheaper these days.

The zonet router (4 ports) was about $50-

The gigE switch (24 ports) was approx $200-, probably could have had it cheaper but I needed the ports.

Had a pair of optical gbics laying around from some project or another.

The APs I use are el-cheapos, say $30 each.

The fiber I'm going to run down to the gazebo & dock will probably be the single most expensive thing I'll buy. Fiber that you can bury (all weather, shielded, etc) ain't cheap nor can you find 300 feet of it just lying around....

 

Thanks for the responses.

Well, I used to run my routers open on a table, so no heat issues there. However, I do notice that my routers are running hot near the end of their life. I now moved everything to a dedicated cabinet with:

Laser Printer/Ink Jet AIO/Laptop print/scan server/SB6120/WNDR3700/4 port Dlink switch

In the cabinet, these should get hotter, but ATM I don't think that's an issue. Everything is surge protected.

Ok, so I've used switches, hubs and routers in the past, but I am new to commercial type stuff. jarhead mentioned some pretty expensive gear (to me) which I don't think I could afford (at least not for my purpose)

I suppose I could buy a 4 port wireless router and a managed gigabit switch. Does this cause any bottleneck issues, or networking issues between the wireless devices and those attached to the switch? If not, what could I get for around 300-400 that would be solid?

 

One of the many nice things about a layer 2/3 switch is that it will tend to 'remember' routes and will ONLY go to the real router if something new pops up.

That's why I went with the 4 port zonet router and the layer 2/3 switch. Efficiency of switching. Important for media streaming.

It's also why I've got my APs on the router directly. Easier to build some static routes in for extra security although I could do much the same thing with VLANs on the switch.

As far as used boxes go, I see lot of recent (n-1 generation) HP ProCurve stuff on local liquidation sales.

 

When I look up layer 2/3 switches, they seem to start around $900. What does it mean to be layer 2/3?

You say it helps with media streaming... until I started having problems with the wireless, I was streaming 1080p content over wireless N and gigabit with no issues. I use one main HTPC as a server and that provides 200+ HD movies to the rest of the house... used to work fine. What will I gain with layer 2/3?

edit: would this be bad? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...le-_-Network+-+Switches-_-Trendnet-_-33156315 anything better in its price range? I probably really don't need a managed switch... what about this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833130075

 

Layer 2 of the OSI Model deals with "true" switching (sending packets based on MAC address only), and Layer 3 is where you find routers, IP addresses/networks, etc. A Layer 2/3 switch is a regular switch with some routing capability (think about VLANs, basically).

 

Which means you have almost no protection.

One of the biggest killers of computing equipment isn't surge, it's low power conditions. There have been a ton of routers that came underpowered to begin with, add a low power condition on top and you have a router that is constantly unstable (rumor is the wndr3700 wall wart was barely adequate). Over time this is hard on the internal capacitors and things become more unstable, and hot and then simply stop working altogether.

The things being discussed here are overkill for home use. Simply get a good UPS.


Here is what a good UPS can do.
The first time I put a line conditioning UPS on a system was on a Win98 box. I built this system using high end part and it was relatively stable, for a Win98 machine, which means, it was okay at best. When I put the UPS on, the system became as stable as most Windows XP machines were. When I switched to Win2k, it became a rock. It was more stable, ran cooler, my hardware lasted longer, and I could overclock higher.


Get a good UPS and chances are your hardware failures will greatly diminish.


Personally, I have a big UPS powering my file server, desktop, modem and router. The router is a 2+ year old Linksys 610N and NEVER had an issue (and it's been used and abused). I have never had to reset it unless something outside interfere with it, which is rare, maybe 3 times in the time I have owned it. Again, that was when something else interfered, it wasn't the routers fault. I recently got a few cheap N cards and went wireless where ever it wouldn't matter and that got my port count down to where I could remove my switch entirely. We have horrible power here and are constantly replacing lightbulbs because of it.

As for streaming, my little file server tops out around 110MBPS over gigabit (120 or so is the theoretical limit I believe), about as fast as an ATA hard disk. Streaming isn't an issue at all.

 

So, basically a L3/L2 switch is just a router/switch?

I guess I need a better understanding. This is what I think I want to do:



I think I can use: Newegg.com - TRENDnet TW100-BRF114 Cable/DSL 4-Port Firewall Router 10/100Mbps 1 x 10/100Mbps WAN Ports 4 x 10/100Mbps LAN Ports for the router

This for the switch: Newegg.com - TP-LINK TL-SG1024D Gigabit Desktop/Rackmount Switch 10/100/1000Mbps 24 x RJ45 8K MAC Address Table or Newegg.com - TRENDnet TEG-S16DG Unmanaged Gigabit GREENnet Switch 10/100/1000Mbps 16 x RJ45 8K MAC Address Table

I suppose I could skip the router if I found a L3 switch??? they are just maddd expensive.

and I cannot find a wireless AP.... will this work?

This is my current setup:

 

which one do you have?

 

Switches can't route, hence why you need to have a router. The only advantage that you may see in a 2/3 switch is the VLAN ability, which I doubt you'll need.

I think that you're getting a little overboard here with the commercial grade stuff. As I stated before, they're expensive; personally, I think your problem isnt the device(s) itself, but your power supply (as leslieann described). This is what I'd do if I were you (assuming you use the first picture you posted):

ISP-supplied modem (or whatever you use) ---> wireless router (whatever you like; there's no reason to get a separate AP for home use, unless you need wireless on multiple floors where signal from the main router is weak) ---> switch. All of this will be connected to a quality UPS (along with your servers and any electronics that must be running for some time after the power's out, or very expensive stuff you'll like to protect). From that switch, connect all your wired connections to it.

The second picture you posted is a good setup too, though you'll need to have the router directly connected to the modem, not to the switch (unless your modem has more than one port). That would be much simpler to set up, imo. Again, if your city/town doesn't have clean power (and chances are, it doesn't), you should look at a decent UPS.

Just asking, but why do you have the HTPC as wireless int he second picture? I'd put all of the wired connections to the switch, which in turn connects to the router (assuming enough ports; otherwise, wire the HTPC directly to the router in one port, with the switch taking another port).

 

The second picture is the way I currently have it running. The switch is ahead of the router because the modem has 2 IPs, one is dedicated for a work machine which, for some reason, will not work on live meeting no matter no many ports I open up, run DMZ, or whatever on the router and the second IP is for the rest of the house. The HTPC is wireless because I've been too lazy to wire the whole house... and it streamed 1080p content just fine until the router started acting up

The reason I wanted AP's was to have everything separated so if something dies, I just replace the one item, not the rest. But it seems like a UPS might save me, so instead I might go with a router like: Newegg.com - TRENDnet TEW-691GR 2.4GHz N450 Wireless Gigabit Router up to 450Mbps Wireless Technology IEEE 802.11b/g/n and the swtich: Newegg.com - TRENDnet TEG-S16DG Unmanaged Gigabit GREENnet Switch 10/100/1000Mbps 16 x RJ45 8K MAC Address Table

With this setup, I would go Modem>Switch then switch to E5400 and router, right? or would I go Modem>Switch 1>E5400/Router>Switch 2?

 

Crap. Home depot/lowes doesn't sell cat 6... do you think I would kick myself later if I ran cat 5e?

 

CAT5 or 5e will work just fine for you; no need to spend too much on cabling now. Most Internet offerings in the US are too slow to take advantage of CAT6 cabling; I'm not even sure if even CAT5 isn't outdated yet, as far as speed is concerned.

 

My main concern isn't internet, it's network transfers. I stream BR.

I think I've decided on Cat6.. it's literally like 2 cents more a foot. Now I just need to decide on Cat6e, Cat6a, or cat6... leaning towards Cat6A STP, but having trouble finding it in bulk at a decent price

 

Well, whatever you choose, it'll work great (seeing as CAT6 overall is faster than CAT5e). But why shielded? STP is mainly used where there is a lot of interference, and no, I'm not talking about cordless phones and microwaves. STP is designed for heavy industrial settings, radar systems, and the like.

Also, from this article, normal UTP cable is more than good enough for residential usage:

 

That's good to know, it will save me some cash. Looks like I can get 1000ft Cat6E UTP for around 160 bucks... for some reason I thought all my current cable was STP... I was wrong.

 

No problem. Personally, when I need to hard-wire my laptop or whatever, I use the Ethernet cable supplied by the Xbox 360 we bought a few years ago (Pro 60GB), which IIRC is CAT5e UTP. Never had problems with it, and was fast on local transfers (I would play a 2-person LAN with my brother on things like CivIV, CnC, etc).

I hope your wiring project goes well

 

FWIW, I run gigE over cat 5e just fine, even out to the 100 meter limit.

But then again, I wired the house myself and tested every drop (all 72 of them) with a fluke nettool.

If you are running your own drops, do invest in a nettool. If you are paying someone to run drops and they aren't using a nettool, fire them.

Borrow one, rent one, buy one with the intention of selling it later, whatever. Just Do It. A Fluke NetTool will tell you in no uncertain terms if you've screwed something up. Even down to badly twisted terminations, etc, etc.

Not quite.

A layer 2/3 switch will remember routes but the router is what sets them up.

You will ALWAYS need a router. Or full router functionality.

Having said that, there are plenty of boxen out there that are combo routers and layer 2/3 switches. I do think however that you will find that a combo box will be more expensive than a simple router and a discounted/used layer 2/3 switch.

What she said. x2

 

Priced 700-3000?!?!

I hardly think that would be necessary. Running less than $125 of cable and terminations with $350 worth of routing equipment shouldn't require 700-3k in tools.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I just can't afford to do that... if something doesn't work, I can test it with my laptop... might be a pain, but it's cheaper.

 

Newegg apparently has a generic tester for less than $30. Not sure how well it works, however.

 

"borrow" was the first option I mentioned.....

And yes, it's is very easy to screw up terminating cat5/6 cables. Once they are in the walls, you're stuck.

This goes well beyond verifying continuity on pins 1-8. That kind of 'verification' can be done by a monkey-minded third grader. Simple electrical continuity doesn't do a lot for signals that are going to be running at 400Mz and higher....... You've got to check the 4x twisted pairs plus the shielding for cross-talk, etc.

The 'extra effort' required to use a dedicated cable tester to make sure that your home runs are 100% is effort well spent.

Depending on an OS (windows/linuxmac) and a canned TCP/IP stack to tell you the hardware level bit error rates of a cable run isn't reliable. At all.

 

Again, thanks for the input, but there is no way I'm gonna spend that or find someone to borrow it from. If the lines don't work right, I can run them again... 1000 feet = 100 bucks... I can rerun it as many times as I need to. I am probably making 2 long runs and 5 short runs.. then few footers from the wall... no big deal. I've never tested any lines and I've done just fine so far, so I just have to hope my luck holds.

As far as a UPS.. I am looking at these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101344 and http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102135

They only need to power a modem, router, switch... I think either should be enough.

 

Whichever one you like after reading the reviews. I don't know much about the different makers of UPS equipment; I only know the basics of how a UPS works (plug --> battery of some size --> your devices).

 

Personally, I use APC.
Be careful as many others do not have line conditioning. You want that.
You also may want to make sure it has lightning protection.

I have tried several other brands and either disliked how they operated, they failed quickly, or they just weren't as good all around. Yeah, you will pay a bit more, but they work. My other brand ones never lasted much more than a year, my APC's usually went 3 years, more with a battery change. Buy the biggest you can get, you need it to not just smooth out the dips but work for a bit during an outtage. I often re-purpose mine for powering fish tanks, laptops and cell phones when the power is out for extended periods.




Cat5e is rated for gigabit, cat5 is not. No need for cat6 unless you are using really long runs or plan on 10gigabit, and you will probably only see a 10-20% speed increase over gigabit even with that due to hard drive speeds. Blue ray works fine over 10/100, but not on G wireless. It can work, under perfect conditions, but that is rare. You need 100 or higher speeds.

Your switch should be behind the router.
A good high end consumer router can easily handle your home network.

 

I bought a UPS today when I was out. It s a CyberPower CP625HG. I was comparing it to a cheaper APC, and decided on this one. I could be wrong. Let me know if it's crap.

for the extra $20 Cat6 costs, I am going with the Cat6... I never plan to run the cable again.

About the switch. ok, I currently have my switch in front of the router because I have 2 IPs... I need one OFF the router (direct to laptop). I could not think of another way to do this. So, when I get my new switch... it will be Modem>Switch>>Router/E5400>Switch

Is this fine?? Will I have any bottlenecks (everything is gigabit)?

I have also RMAed my router --- I found out it is only 7 months old, so I guess I'll just get another for free to last me another 7mo

 

Whatever your setup ends up being, your biggest bottleneck will be the ISP itself, depending on what plan you purchased. Second biggish bottleneck I could see for absolute performance would be your wireless, but that's just the nature of wireless networking (we don't live in a perfect world in a vacuum, direct line-of-sight of the router, or absolutely no interference).

In all seriousness though, your setup is good to go. If you'd rather not wire again, then CAT6 is a good choice to make if you are okay with the few extra dollars.

As far as consumer-grade networking goes, setting the switch between your ISPs and router is the only thing I could think of that would work. There is a way to combine the two ISP offerings into a single internet connection, though 1) that's several hundred dollars in equipment, and 2) you need the separate IP address for your laptop anyway, so this example is moot.

 

There are 2 types of UPS units, standby and full condition. I use the APC Smart-UPS 1500 and 1000 va units. These have network cards installed and can turn off equipment when ever power loss exceeds the battery time. These also test the battery on a schedule and let you know when there is a problem.

As far as network hardware I did what your thinking of 10+ years ago. Using a Netgear FVS338 VPN router (8 port). I have a 16 port Dlink DGS1216T Gige switch to handle most of my traffic. The only thing connect to my router is 100base gear like printers, 54g AP's and old servers. My house it fully wired with Cat 5e wiring.

 

Never had good luck with them personally, but even a cheap ups will help with the problem you have.

 

Update:

Alright, I ordered a crap ton of stuff from Monoprice. I've wired my rooms with Cat6E.. it took almost the whole 1000ft. I am now ordering the terminations (which I forgot) and switches.

I found this 'deal' on newegg and jumped on it... because I love buy one get one lol... think I did ok? My other choices were D-link or Trendnet 24 port unmanaged switches for $129

Newegg.com - Computer Parts, PC Components, Laptop Computers, LED LCD TV, Digital Cameras and more!

The combo is 2 ZyXEL GS1100-24 switches for $171. Looks like these switches are nearly $200 everywhere.

http://us.zyxel.com/Products/detail...yGroupNo=E1A2554E-E076-4EC3-A3B5-0812F093263E

 

I've pretty well finished... there are probably 5 rooms that aren't wired still... I will probably wire 3 of them. Here's the closet... I might need that second switch.



The closet isn't finished yet, dunno when that will happen. Also need a patch panel.