Ethics and connecting to unsecured wireless networks.

Just moved into an apartment with 2 of my buddies. Anyhow we're getting our own internet package installed on Thursday, but in the meantime we're "internet-less". However when scanning for wireless networks we pick up 11 networks, 4 of them which are unsecured. My roommates connect to them to play WoW, surf, and do P2P stuff. However I chose not too, because I think its not right, and you can go to jail if you get caught if I'm not mistaken.

What should I do..

I dont want the police knocking on our door. Ty

 

If I were in your position, I would connect to those knowing this is temporary. It would not weigh on my conscience doing so. I mean if I was going to steal this internet access for a long period of time yes, it would feel unethical. But if it's only for 2 days it's not a big deal for me at least.

And I think you're worried to much about the consequences of stealing internet. I doubt the police is gonna be knocking on your door in 2 days for that...

 

I think you should Google the subject.
Here is one example...
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/07/71358

I have heard that using unsecured networks is a federal crime (US).
Never found any real proof to back it up.
It may depend on which country you live in.

good luck,
bearz

 

It is a crime in the UK. I think in this case though it would be harmless to use it for a day or two. I wouldn't like to download with it though as i would feel that it would then be unethical as you are using their internet and they might have to pay as they browse or have limits.

 

All good and valid points.

Albeit a crime, I doubt any police will have either the time or will to pursue this, unless pressured by the owner of the Wireless connection.

 

It's a crime to connect with out permission. I would not use it to play games or anything that requires a lot of bandwidth. That is the easiest way for the owner to know something is wrong and be caught.

 

Sure it is a crime. And sure it is wrong.

But at the end of the day the owner should be securing the connection. If the owner doesn't know how to, it is probably likely that he/she will not notice the leecher either.

Regardless of whether it is a computer illiterate person, I find that there is a responsibility (to make sure it is secured), unless you willingly want to share your connection. If you do not know how to - find a person who does.

 

Stealing is stealing, weather it's a solid object, or bandwidth, it's stealling something from someone that paid for it and whom is the rightful owner. It is also an invasion, a type of trespassing, a violation of private space. It is both fully unethical, and fully illegal.

Some here seem to think it's OK, and even your right to trespass, violate, and steal if the poor person is not computer savvy enough to know how to properly configure their set up; this is just plain disgusting and despicable. True criminal minded scumbags they are, every single one of them!

 

Internet and stuff is one thing, P2P is undefendable in my opinion.

That said, have you considered the 'right' way? Head over to your neighbours, ask them if you can use their connection for a few days and offer them to secure their network as 'payment'?

 

Good idea.

 

no probably their fault for leaving it unsecured.

example. my college mate purposely leaves his wifi router unsecured so when his friends come over they can play just like that. i asked him what if someone was stealing your internet? he tells me its alright, at least he's helping someone.

btw i also believe which country you are in, here in the philippines we dont have bandwidth limit lol. i leave my desktop on 24/7 and download whatever i want and can xD

imo, no not a crime or unethical, if they want it safe and secure they should take the steps to and not leave it unsecured.

 

Lokster, your friend is leaving himself open to some liability. A cousin of mine told me recently that she downloaded a movie from some file sharing site and within a week received a cease and desist letter from the copyright holder, sent via her ISP.

It sounds like your friend has good intentions, but if somebody used your friend's wifi for some illegal purpose, your friend may be left holding the bag.

 

maybe so but proof is its been a year and so far no problems. the law probably varies on the country. here in the philippines i dont think internet security is as tight as the US or EU countries.

btw. if youre EXTREMELY LUCKY, and get a hotel connection im sure thats not illegal. rofl, i found one at my parents house who live a half a block away from a local hotel, im sure that would keep my conscience clean

 

No matter how to put it it's still stealing. Anything you do wrong will get back to the owner since it is his ISP you're hacking into. It's a matter on how you're brought up. My brother had the same problem. The cable people said it was secure but his router lights kept blinking. I tested his connection and lo and behold I could access his line! I made a little adjustment and secured his router. He said his connection is a bit faster now and he was upset that his neighbors were accessing his line. And this was happening for a year! He's all happy now, the funny thing is he forgot the passkey. I told him to just go on the internet and adjust the router again.

 

Nice, blame the victim for being victimized!

 

i dont want to sound like the bad guy but its pretty common sense

if you dont want your house rob you lock the door at night right? i blame ignorance or carelessness of victims, its different if the person locked the doors but the person still got in, by breaking in.

 

Whoa. Easy there. Stealing isn't stealing. The thing with physical objects is that by stealing them, you're depriving the owner of them. Something like bandwidth, or intellectual property, is a lot trickier. (Assuming the bandwidth is based on a flat rate, at least). If the person is doing p2p on someone else's connection, I'd say that's out of line, but if it's just some light browsing over a short term, it really is completely harmless.

edit: Could we drop the comparisons to houses and locked doors? That metaphor fails on so many levels.

 

So if an elderly couple forgets to lock their door it's OK to walk in and steal their property? Somehow I don't think the law is going to back you up on this.

Taking something which is not yours is stealing. End of story. People can dance around that all they want, but all the arguments I've seen stated on this thread hold no water in our legal system:

But I doubt anyone would notice.
But it's only for a short time.
But they failed to lock their door (secure their network).
But I was only going to use a very small part of their bandwidth.

Barring a medical emergency, I would say live without the internet (at home) for few days.

 

Actually, I think a good lawyer could work with the 3th statement. It's not a matter of leaving the door unlocked (since one has to go check if a door is locked or not), but of leaving the door open: when you're searching for networks, every network in the radius pops up, so you see it without doing anything.
Now, if a door is left open, you're kinda inviting people in.
Would need to be a pretty good lawyer to make it stick though

I for one know it would be illegal to do. And, once it was done to me, and I didn't like it. However, I would probably do it myself as well. And, although it is illegal, I wouldn't have any moral problems with it.
Does that make me a bad person? Do I have to go to jail now? Imo: NO. Don't forget: a few years ago (maybe still now) there were people saying that, if your connection got abused by a hacker to hack a website/perform a DDOS-attack/... YOU are liable because YOU didn't protect your connection. Don't know how that line of thinking is holding up these days though

 

There's a stage in a child's developement where they don't do things that are wrong based on "a fear of punishment" changes to "because it's the right thing to do". I'm not so sure everyone in this thread has quite reached that second stage.

 

Internet theft is so common its not funny. As much as a crime as it is, it is propogated by those who leave their systems insecure.

Could we expect a great rise in rime if we had no locks available for home/lockers etc? Of course we could. Morally its wrong but it questions the theory of... How wrong is it?

Many would not question the difference of grabbing an apple of an apple tree vice stealing someones wallet from a lockerroom because he left his locker unlocked...but it is theft.

One day, as a test, I ran a check of how many open networks were available between my work and home. Its a 15 minute drive through suburbia. There were over 50. I expected over 10-20 but I never believed so many actually had wifi.

Right or wrong its done... I remember getting lost a few years back in Pittsburgh at a neighbourhood craftshow, turning on the laptop and googling that address to my home here in Canada.

Was it wrong? Sure was. Should there be concessions? Thats a question we need to ask at times.

Since Im Canadian let me give another great example. In Upper Labrador you go caribou hunting in a very desolate area. There are shacks and cottages but very few and sparse. Caribou hunting is done at around -35 Celsius (yes friggin cold). People used to lock their cottages but they kept getting broken into. Now they are left open with a note that says "Glad we could be of assistance and please leave it clean for the next visitor"

If your freezing your butt off at -40Celsius and come by an empty cottage with a fireplace in the middle of nowhere...well yes its still illegal but...damn warm.

As for the guy who showed intent to steal from others by breaking into a companies insecure wireless and got 9 years... good for him. I bet hes still keeping his back to the wall.

 

What about a different scenario? If someone pays for internet service at home is it unethical or illegal to temporarily use an unsecured network when traveling away from home?

 

They were supposed to have designated cities that were going to be experimental super-intranet domains so that you could hook up wireless anywhere in the city. These were going to be big cities. I wonder what ever came of that

 

There's a world of difference in ethical questionability between leeching someone's open WiFi connection and breaking into their house to take their computer or something along those lines.

Theft of service is a crime. Yet; in this case the internet is being paid for. You're not preventing the person from using their connection. So long as you aren't torrenting or doing anything else that pulls massive bandwidth I don't think it's a major issue. MUCH better if you go ask but I've borrowed connections when I didn't have another choice and/or didn't want to pay €30 for 24 hours. IMO the primary consideration is "do no harm". Is it right? No, not really. Will the owners even know? Very very doubtful. It's a crime akin to tearing the tag off a mattress.

 

Unless that person is a pedophile or a terrorist.

"Hey, Osama, have you already sent that video of yours to Al Jazeera?"
"Aw,shucks, Ali! My neighbor is at a LAN party till tomorrow morning..."

PS
Hi Echelon. Hi Carnivore.

 

I have follwed a few stories about this on Slashdot and other news sites.
Though you will most likely never get prosecuted, you can be sued in civil court, though I disagree since the plaintiff never took reasonable measures to secure their network and they are using your airspace and possibly messing up your wlan with their DHCP (I have 1 unsecured network with me that can play havoc on my network at times)
As for someone downloading P2P content, there was a case the RIAA had thrown out a while back since they could not prove who it was that downloaded the material, and I want to say the owner of the access point was given the same protection as ISP's are. This is very possible with college campuses.
Personally I feel if a person leaves their network unprotected (all they got to do is read the manual to secure it) they are openly inviting other people to use it
As for the comment about the SuperWLan's last I heard New Orleans is working on getting that installed

 

For all of you who think it's sooooo bad to steal a wireless connection: how do you feel about surfing the web for personal use in your working hours on the connection of your employer?
And if anyone says "I haven't done that.": I don't believe you (unless you don't work )

 

It's amazing to see how many borderline sociopaths are members of this forum!

 

Great arguments you got there scoober ^^

 

Go back and read my previous post, slacker!

 

yeah, at page 1 you wrote a post
my point basically is that it isn't very usefull to call people names (though i could have said it more clearly perhaps )

also, off all the people who are claiming it's wrong, I'm sure more than half has done SOMETHING wrong
hence, condamning this is a bit hypocrit (?)
I'm not saying YOU did something wrong ... but if you think about it, it's pretty much impossible not too ... never walked/drove through a red light? never put your hand in a cookie jar? never taken a dollar from a shopping cart (here, you have to put money in a shopping cart to detach it from the other carts ... you get the money back when you place the cart back in the line. Don't know if that system exist where you live)? never overspeeded? never .......?
I'm sure you get my point by now

 

What do you mean "borderline"?

 

What we are discussing here is a premeditated crime, one that does reflect on the moral character, or the lack thereof, of the individual involved in perpetrating the crime, and no, it's not all relative, it's either all right or all wrong.

 

lol

 

then EVERYBODY is guilty
ALL is wrong
the fact that something is premeditated or not, is not an issue
if I accidently kill someone, because my knife slipped ... I still killed him and I'll still get punished
if I don't see a sign with a speed limit 50, and i continue driving 70, it's still illegal, and my fine won't be any less
if I know nothing about computers, and I set up a wireless at my place, and connect to the network at the top of the list, and that happens to be the neighbours network, it's wrong

fact hat I know those things are wrong, doesn't make me feel bad should I at 1 point do them (except for the killing part that is )

apparently, in your eyes (and those from ICE-T and probably others) that makes me a criminal. Fine, but as I said, then we're all criminals, so I still don't need to feel bad

Also, picture this:
I'm a guy who knowingly uses the unsecured wifi from my neighbour to check my mail and surf the web.
OR
I'm the CEO/CFO/whatever from a small (or big) company. My company makes a lot off profit each year. However, due to certain gaps in legislation, I get away without paying lots of taxes in a legal way.
I'm not asking you whether it's right or wrong. My question is: who does the most damage?

 

Your logic is basically "there are worse things on this planet than me, so I'm fine" That logic is fundamentally flawed. Your logic is "there are some things that I don't do right, so it doesn't matter what else I do wrong"

Following your logic: "There's no problem in kicking this 80 year old gentleman in the nuts because someone just blew 15 people up in Afganistan"
Following your logic: "I might as well start shop lifting because I stole a candy bar in the local paper store when I was 3"

 

I love it! You get the "Kick Ass" award of excellence in posting for today!

Way to school the moral relativist ignoramus!

 

You do more damage, by knowingly stealing your neighbor's unsecured connection. Which can be illegal, depending on the laws of your country.

The CEO/CFO (in your own words) are complying with the laws of the land.

There really is not much grey area here. If you are using someone else's service (product, porperty, ect...) that this other person is paying for, (created, owns) without that person's permission, it is stealing. And by saying that you are not impacting their quality of service, by no means justifies the fact that you are still taking or utilizing a service or product that does not belong to you.

You may try to justify it anyway you want, but the fact remains, it is stealing. So the answer to the thread is nothing more than a reflection of the person's morals and ethics who is reponding to this thread.

 

Bottom line is if it's not yours and you're using it without the owner's permission then it's stealing. You can sugar coat all your arguments but it's still wrong! Would you feel the same if someone is accessing your line?

 

It should be a crime to run an unsecured network, unless you are voluntarily sharing your connection.

 

I suppose it should be a crime to not lock your doors and windows then as well.

 

yeah it should

i think people who are careless about leaving their wi-fi unsecured are part to blame. DONT wana share your internet? DONT leave it unsecured. can it get any simpler than that?

btw whats the most extreme punishment someone got for stealing wifi? just curious

 

So far, 8 years from stealing from Starbucks.

 

That's what's wrong with askewed thinking. If I left a door unlock, I don't expect someone to come in uninvited. If you came in uninvited it's akin to a home invasion. And if find you in my house and then shoot you dead, I guarantee you 99% that a judge or jury will not convict me for killing you. An open door is an enticement but it doesn't mean you can enter and do whatever you want.

People who are new to wireless internet don't really think about security. As long as it works for them then everything is fine and dandy.

 

I don't know where you live, but in the US yo can get sued because a burglar breaks his leg when robbing your house. Don't know what the verdict was anymore.

Other than that, I'm gonnashut up before people start thinking I'm the maffia or something

Still think it's funny though. I'm sure all those people who are so going up against it, have all done and/or will all do something illegal.

 

It's an urban legend.

 

Lets extend your logic...

A rapist defends himself, saying his victim wears sexy clothes so she wanted to be raped. He's not the criminal, she is, and she should be blamed for wearing that style of clothing.

Just because you can take something from someone, doesn't mean you should. Nor can you justify it by saying the other party should have done more to stop me from taking from them.

You are trying to justify illegal behavior by blaming the victim. Flawed logic.

 

i think that example fails on so many levels. mainly because this is like a persons property not their physical apperance or what, + its direct contact with a person and forceful and AGAINST the persons will. obvious that the crime is done by the rapist and not the victim.

with wifi there is no direct contact or what, just jump in use the internet and jump out, then jump in whenever u feel like it.

some owners have to take responsibility for their property, i think being a virus in the system is more appropriate example.

 

There's been quite a few threads on this and I don't feel like typing everything again so here:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=179593

Bottom line: Even if you don't get in trouble for stealing someone's wireless, it still makes you an a-hole for taking advantage of someone.

 

So true, It amazes me how people think it's not morally wrong to steal just because they feel it doesn't effect the victim in a physical way.

So you're saying, if I ID theft ya and take your money, your good with it. No direct contact, I just jump on the internet, get what I want, and you take the responsiblity because, you allowed my steal from you.

It is true that people should take responsibility for their property, only because there will always be people with no personal responsiblity or morals who will always try to take advantage of others.