Banishing All Wires - A Wireless Primer

Wires/Cables...I don't like 'em, and they don't like me.
For a while now we have agreed to disagree on their merits, with an uneasy truce settling (helped in no short measure by a mini usb hub) over the dispute, but I've had enough and want them gone, every last one of 'em.
Trouble is I don't have a clue. No if's, but's or maybe's about it. When it comes to all things wireless, I'm LOST.
Can someone please walk me though the unbundling process, the untimate goal being to {carefully} slap my laptop on the desk and not plug anything in (unless batteries are screaming out for juice)and be able to run the printer and scanner, connect to internet (only have dial-up now but hoping to get broadband soon), and while I am pushing my luck I might as well add my digital camera to the list. And at play time, be able to grab laptop and bolt for the door without dragging aformentioned periphials along for the ride.
I was told my laptop has a built in wireless LAN card. When I go to network connections in control panel, the following headings are staring back at me:
Intel(R) PRO/Wireless LAN 2100 3B Mini PCI Adapter
Realtek RTL8139/810x Family Fast Ethernet NIC
1394 Net Adapter

There is also an infra red and ethernet port.

Can anyone please help me:

1. Terminate the printer cable (wireless print server needed?)
2. Get the scanner and camera's working without wires
3. Get me connect to the internet, even if it's only dial-up at this stage, without that phone cable.

I know it's a big ask, but any help would be muchly appreciated. Tks.

Regards,
OverMyHead
P.S. I have xp home on PC- (acer travelmate 290) - "a grey one" ;-)

 

OK, let's talk through this a bit. When you get your broadband, you will need a home router. In order to connect using your wireless (802.11b) card, you will need an Access Point. As one might expect, several companies offer combination routers/access points and it sounds as if that might be the perfect solution for you. With that in place, and assuming you can get everything properly configured, you will have network access and can surf the web. That eliminates the ethernet connection that you would otherwise need (and the phone connection that you are currently using). One option for the combo device would be THIS device from Linksys.

It is possible to get small network printer servers so that your printer can just hang off the network somewhere and doesn't need to connect directly to your computer. However, these devices will cost you some money. There actually are scanners that are network capable (look at the Brother line of combo scanner/copier/printer for network connectivity to all devices plus the smaller desktop footprint of a combination device). Again though, that is a fairly expensive solution when all you are trying to do is avoid plugging in a wire. If you have an old desktop machine sitting around, another option would be to use it as a print server and hang your current printer off of it and then share that printer over the network using the windows network neighborhood. Likewise you could attach the scanner to that machine and then share the directory where the pictures are stored.

The digital camera is pushing your luck. There are some bluetooth options but once again, you would likely need to replace the camera. I think this might be one place that you accept needing a wire.

If you have any questions, let us know and we'll try to help. Good Luck!

 

Well, wireless connectivity (802.11b specifically) may be able to take care of all of this. The biggest obstacle I see is the scanner. I'm not aware of any scanners that support ethernet. You may be able to find a printer/scanner combo that does however. If such a beast exists, you can use a wireless router for internect connectivity. You can then use a wireless bridge to connect the printer/scanner and access it wirelessly, through your network.

 

Thank you very much jchastain and Big Calhoun for your comments.

Prooving a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, the more I learn the more I think I don't know, about this wireless adventure.

OK broadband connects to router which is like a splitter or a bit like my mini usb hub in that it take one cable in and can split the connection off to how ever many computers as it has ports. Right?

And those port would be ethernet ports, right?

And to connect w/out the thernet cable between router and computer, ie wirelessly, there needs to be an access point at the router and a wireless LAN card on computer? I have the latter and need the former router/access point combo, and then I'm into configuring it.

I hear people say they can roam the streets and jump on someones wireless internet connection, so.....:
1. what's the common range for access points, through walls?
2. can the connection be secured and is this usually done with password, username, when configuring the connection between LAN card and router?

There is anew wireless broadband service that is building it's network all around my city so one can roam anywhere in the coverage area and stay connected. Unfortunately they have not extended coverage to where my laptop and I co-exist just yet. But I'm told "any week now" which ive loosely translated to mean a few months away. so....
Will the router/accss point cmbo be able to handle a normal dial up connection as well as the eventual broadband connection, so I can at least go wireless with the dial-up now?

As if the above wasn't enough of an imposition on your time....

Printers:

There is an older desktop in another room running windows 98, that has it's own printer. The PC dosen't have any network cards. So.....
1. Is the cost of a wireless network card for that computer going to be about the same as the cost of a print server for the printer on my desk? I guess even the former is going to be more expensive, as I think it would (not knowing but seems logical), I could then have the whole newtwork thing going on and that other computer could share the same connection as mine, saving some $ anyways, right? It's currently on a seperate dial-up connection.
I guess also, it could mean we could collectively loose one of the printers, which could help offset the cost of the card or print server.

--relaity check please--- am i getting ahead of myself with this so far?

Irrespective, and in somewhat defiance perhaps, of the answer to the above relaity check, moving right along.....

Camera is next in the firing line. It a new'ish Olympus c5060 wide zoom and I cannot find a thing in the manual about wireless conncting. What I'm thinking is, is there some sort of bluetooth or other 'dongle' (i've heard the name, haven't a clue what is really is though) thingie that I can plug (preferably)the camera, or (less preferably)it's usb cable into that will then wirelessly connect to my computer?

Then I will just about have wireless utopai.

I don't ask for much, do I Any help whatsoever would be greatly appreciated and obviously vital to a succssful outcome.

 

BTW, please excuse the spelling, or should that be lack thereof?
My fingers are all charged up on this wireless trip and not responding very well to what my head is trying to type. I might have to trade them in for less excitable alternatives.

 

OK... a good set of questions. Let's see here...

You are basically correct on the router. It takes the signal from the cable/dsl company and divides it up to all the things in your house that need to connect. It actually is a bit more complex than that because it also provides some important security. I won't go into the details in this thread (we can have a separate thread on the benefits of a router if you want to know the details) but basically you want a home router even if you aren't "splitting" the signal. And yes, the network connections that run between the cable modem, a PC and the router are ethernet connections. In simple terms, it is the cable with the connector that looks like a big telephone plug.

And yes, in order to make a wireless connection, you need an access point and a wireless client adapater. Think of it like a cordless phone where you need the base station and then the phone itself. The access point is the base station and the adapter (which in your case is built into your laptop) is the phone. There are separate routers and access points, but iun your case (assuming you have not bought any equipment yet) I think a combo unit likely makes the most sense.

Ah, now the topic moves to wireless security. You are absolutely right that people driving down the street can jump onto your connection if you are not careful (and I will confirm that most people are not careful). How far the signal goes varies, but you can pretty much count on the fact that anyone with a decent antenna will be ample to access your network. In reality, it likely sounds like more of a risk than it truly is, but there is no reason not to protect yourself as it really is pretty easy to do.

The best way to protect yourself is to setup encryption on your link. Basically, you just have to configure both sides to enable encryption ("WAP" is the most common, though some more advanced schemes exist too). Then you provide a "key" which is the "password" that is used to determine the encryption scheme. Another good thing to do is to change the SSID, which is the "name" of your network.

As for the new broadband wireless service, I'm not exactly sure what they are rolling out there. There are actually a couple of different technologies that are being rolled out. Generally speaking though, these technologies are completely different than anything we have discussed here so you'd likely need to pay for new stuff if you want that new service when it becomes available. Personally though, I suspect you would find a cable modem or DSL connection to be more reliable than any of the emerging broadband wireless solutions - at least in the near term. And no, none of this is compatible with dial-up networks either. We are pretty much assuming you have either a cable modem or DSL when we discuss all of this.

Finally, my first thought for that old computer with the printer would be to buy an ethernet card for it and run a cable to the router. An ethernet card will only cost you around $10. If you need to use wireless, the adapter will likely run about $40 (though I've seen them as low as $24). The cheapest print servers I've seen are around $50.

I'll let someone else handle the camera questions. I've never seen anything like what you are talking about, but I've never gone looking for it so it is possible I just don't know what the options there are.

 

tks so much for that quick reply. Granted I'm starting from scratch with this, so can't help but learn allot - the sink or swim approach always works best with me-, but I fear treading water is about to become rather more difficult, now the basics are out of the way.
Here goes nothing....:

Sounds a great idea to use the other desktop as a psuedo print server. I'm not a great fan of cables ("oh, really?" I hear you say in a sarcastic tone , so I've spied a few wireless usb ethernet adapters, but I just need to check if I also need a ethernet card or the adapters funstion as both the card and the transmitter/receiver (for lack of a better word). I certainly like the sounds of just plugging one of these into the destop and printing to it (or i guess I should say 'through it'), wirelessly from my laptop.

I'm surfing for routers/access point combo's now. but I'm still a bit vague on what specs the card/s i have on laptop are already. I'm going to assume they are 802.11b but I don't actually know for sure. How can I tell, so I make sure whatever router/access point I get will be the right one (man, I know that sounds lame, but I just dunno)? Under network connections I have the following:
Intel(R) PRO/Wireless LAN 2100 3B Mini PCI Adapter
Realtek RTL8139/810x Family Fast Ethernet NIC
1394 Net Adapter
----with the top one I'm assuming is the most relevant for me for now?-----
Actually, going to the properties of each of these three network connection icons doesn't particularly enlighten me much, Im sorry to say.

I'm gonna need an acess point that can shoot through two walls to get to the desktop, and a wirelss usb adapter/card combo on said desktop pc that will shoot back to the access point (if it has to?). They are about 5 meters, say 6 yards, apart. I can see a day when another computer will be connected to the network and that will reside about 15 yards and 5 walls away (assuming a direct line of sight approach is taken, otherwise it could slip out the through the door, down the hallway, etc, etc and be there via only three walls/doors from the access point).

I've found another wireless broadband supplier who can connect us up so looks like I'll be abandoning the copper phone line. Am awaiting full specs on the routers/access points they suggest i use. Am also interested to learn from them the ins and outs of it all. I'm not sure at this stage if there could be any interferance issues between their signal to the antennea on the roof and any access points in the building, etc. They have been around a while now and I'm also awaiting reliability numbers so I can check if it is flakey or not - so far everyone seems delighted with it.

Thks very much on the security explaination. It's got me thinking though....:
Say I network the laptop and desktop wirelessly. Is there a way to limit the files/devices each client has privelages to, so that someone on a networked computer cannot get access to my email client or HDD files, and visa-versa? If there is a reliable way around that, I have another question then, why don't a bunch of people down a street get together, buy one fat ( enough so it doesn't slow down too much with multiple users) broadband service, and network their computers and share the costs? Is it simply a wireless range contraint? If so, how good are repeaters at boosting the signal?

I'm swimming in ideas at the mo' and will need some direction before i tire and sink under the surface

Tks again for your help thus far.

 

Hmmm... I'm not sure the term "wireless usb ethernet adapter" is accurate, but if you buy a usb wireless adapter, then you do not need a separate ethernet adapter. The wireless adapter you need is called "wifi" (the marketing name) or "802.11b" (the technical specification). An 802.11g adapter would also work as they are backward compatible, but those will be more expensive. If you want more info on the wireless standards and the differences between them, just take a look at THIS thread.

As for distance, you should be fine as long as those walls are interior house walls. Insulation has a tendency to block 2.4GHz signals, so they have difficulty passing through exterior walls but unless it is very unusual construction that distance shouldn't be a problem indoors. (Although I don't think you will need to do so, for others reading this thread who might have slightly different needs I should point out that the LinkSys WAP11 Access Point can be configured as a client to provide a bit more distance. It has a 100mw signal and can accept external antenna modifications whereas the typical USB client adapter has a 30mw signal and a fixed low grade antenna. You do, however, need an ethernet adaper in the PC for connecting to the WAP11 and both configuration and troubleshooting is more complex with that solution.)

Good luck with the wireless broadband provider. That is a rather new service so I hope that you will share your experiences (good and bad) with them here with us.

As for the security question, in windows you must manually turn on sharing and then specify which devices, drives, or directories are to be shared so generally speaking you are protected. People shouldn't be able to jump onto your PC via a wireless network and just start looking through everything unless you've specifically opened up the doors for them. Of course, I would recommend keeping your windows patches current as Microsoft has been known to have a few security holes. ;-)

Finally, to your question on why people don't use wireless solutions to share a single broadband solution... well, it happens more often than you might think. In a neighborhood it doesn't work so well because of the problems with exterior walls discussed before. It just isn't as reliable as people demand. In apartment complexes, it is far more common. Most broadband providers have terms of service that prohibit sharing a single circuit, but it does happen.

 

thanks for the fast reply, it's really helping to reinforce or introduce new things while it's all fresh in my mind.
That thread on the a/b/g standards was a great help. b it is and b is, quite frankly, all I'm going to need for a very long time. Just why the laptop posseses three network adpters is still a mystery but I think I'll just let them fight it out and see which one picks up the signal first (when a signal actually exists that is
OK, security..again.:
It's great to see I can secure the network here. I think perhaps the connection will be used in no small part downloading the frequent windows updates which will at least be a way faster and less noticeable exercise with broadband.
Now, how does security work at public hot spots and airports, etc? I mean, I don't have any control over the security in those situations, do I? Travelling is a prime driver behind this laptop purchase and a sorry amount of time is spent at airports, so should I not be sending 'sensitive' emails and files from these locations if using a public network like these?
Second, parallel thought is the security surrounding the actual wireless broadband served to my location. I've asked the vendors about that and will run their answers past you (for your reference and also because i probably won't be able to understand every second word they say
Distance:
Yep, all internal walls/doors - timber framing and no insulation (unfortunatey as it gets freaking cold in Winter) to worry about. Yay so that's a check in that tick box.

Will most certainly keep you informed of the progress with this wireless broadband service - the ever growing list of questions for them will get a solid work out tomorrow. Me being an absolute beginner with anything wireless should serve as the best crash test dummie there ever was . Not for them most likely, but at least for anyone else looking at it through my idiot consumer spectacles.
They have a phone line service deilvered over the same wireless network so that just doubles the fun, or depth I'm getting into, depending upon how one looks at it.

Thanks again for all your help. If you have ANYTHING else I should be concerning myself with, please do advise as I'm still like a spounge - yep even surprise myself sometimes.

 

Ya know, this has turned into a great thread for a primer on wireless. Perhaps it should be 'sticky'.

 

The different networking devices aren't all that important, but since you ask let's go through them...

Intel(R) PRO/Wireless LAN 2100 3B Mini PCI Adapter

This is your built in 802.11b wireless card. This is what you will be using for wireless connectivity.

Realtek RTL8139/810x Family Fast Ethernet NIC

This is your standard ethernet port. If you plug in an ethernet cable, it will be using this device to connect to the network.

1394 Net Adapter

This is a IEEE 1394 firewire port. While it is not typically used for networking per se, it can be used to connect devices or to transfer data and Microsoft has chosen to include it in the list. Some people who do not use firewire disable this device so that it will not draw/waste power while running on battery.


As to the public network security question, the public networks are unsecure. There is no encryption across the wireless link. If you are connecting to a web site that uses HTTPS then the data stream is encrypted by the browser so your data is (somewhat) secure even though the wireless link isn't. (Think of it as a locked chest riding in a non-armored unlocked car). But to your example, email would not be protected at all and a wiley hacker could see it.

 

Ive read alot of bad things about wireless USB, impractical and im just not a big fan of USB in the first place. Just give me my old school cables that are bigger but reliable!

Inspiron 9100- 3.2ghz P4 HT - 1gb RAM - 100GB HD - 4x dvd/cd burner -128mb ATI 9700. Too Much Computer for Such a n00b!

 

<blockquote id='quote'> quote:<hr height='1' noshade id='quote'>Originally posted by CSpwntsYOU

 

BTW,

here is a prety good link for us wireless challenged:
http://www.jiwire.com/wi-fi-home-setup-introduction.htm

I didn't knoe there was such a beast as a home plug that would use the houses electrical sytem like a defacto Ethernet cable to bridge the more remote areas of a house - anyone have any expereince with those?

 

PPPoE is Point to Point Protocol over Ethernet. Years ago, when they were standardizing dial-up connectivity using a modem PPP was developed as the standard way to manage the dial-up connection. PPPoE is an extension of that old PPP standard that is used when there is a connection driven circuit across a static infrastructure (rather than the old fashioned dialing).

You are correct, in order to print through the desktop it would need to be turned on. If you do not want to leave that machine running all the time or if the printer will need to be in a different location, then you might be better off buying on the the little print servers to drive your printer.

As for the electrical outlet networking, the devices generally work pretty well. Electrical circuits are inherently very "noisy" but this technology has come a long way in providing reasonably reliable connections. Of course, it doesn't help to remove the wires, which was your initial goal, but it is effective at extending a wired ethernet network without having to run ethernet cables throughout the house.

 

Tks for that.

There is no immediate need for Homeplug but i have, over the last few days of wireless network learning, seen many a nifty gadet for home security, TV, video, stereo, etc,etc.
At some stage in the future I may wish to incorporate some of this or other features and may need to get a signal to the deepest, darkest corner of the house and that's where homeplug came in. Waht I was thinking was running a bridge/ap from one to devces that would otherwise be in any wi-fi no man's land, or if there is only one such device, and as it would usually be located somewhere near an electrical socket anyways, I could run the Ethernet cable from the homeplug straight to it. Similarly, as long as I get a wireless router than also has a few Ethernet ports, and because it would be positioned somewhere near a power socket, I could live with an ethernet cable from the router to the homeplug. Would all that work?

Also, I will be building a new house in about a years time and al this wireless learning is going to be immensly helpful. I will need to decide whether to be future proofing the house wiring, or instructing the sparkies to wire normally and rely on wireless devices and homeplugs. I'm actually leaning towards wireless at this stage but maybe with a limited ethernet backbone to get to any predicted black spots. Of course allot can happen in 12 months so will keep an eye on it, but now, it seems like a perfect and the less expensive of the two options.

 

LAN for apartments:

Not applicable for me but could be for sister so I'll keep on thhinkig about it, hopefully with your help.
OK, broadband into one point, wireless (and/or ethernet cable) router/ap combo to however many wi-fi capable combo's are in range, right?
Also, is there a limit to the number of devices operating on a wireless LAN? I mean, with a wired LAN, there are only so may ethernet ports on the router, right? Or can you use hubs, ie plug a 4 port hub into one of, say, four ports on the router so there are now 7 ports routed, etc, etc?
Likewise for wireless I guess - how many devices before it gets too much for the router to handle any simultanious requests?

The broadband service would have to be juiced up according to the number of users possible at any-one time also, right?

At some stage, in some apartment, the wireless signal will have degraded beyond that which is effective. Is this where what they call bridges comes out to play? How does this differ from an access point or are they pretty much the same thing? Are there other devices that will boost the signal (both ways I guess would be needed, to be safe?)? The situation I'm thinking of is a set of 4 very close but stand alone apartments that, fortunately, are all built pretty similarly and have a direct-ish line of sight from window to window (I'm assuming that is the best way accross from house to house?).

Now, about security in this situation, I'm thinking, how would each of the housholds be sure the others weren't eaves dropping on their emails or web sufing and down/uploads?

I'm probably getting waaaaayy too far ahead of myself with this but it's so darn intersting I can't help it

 

OK, a single radio covers a somewhat limited area. While there are bandwidth considerations, the odds are far more likely that you will run into distance issues. A single radio can cover 1 - 2 apartments on a single level of you use the cheap antennas that come with the Access Point. If you replace the antenna with a good panel design, then you can mount the radio in an attic and blast the signal down roughly 3 stories across 2 stacks - so the radio will basically cover 6 apartments.

By far the most effective approach is to use a wired infrastructure to connect all the radio together so ideally you run ethernet cables across the attic to each set of radios that is blasting signal down into the stacks. Where you have multiple buildings and cannot easily run a wire between them, then you can link the buildings using a point-to-point wireless bridge. Just get 2 APs and put them at the edge of each attic and configure them as a bridge. You'll need good directional antennas on each of them, likely a yagi or a high end panel.

With multiple radios, channel assignments become important. As was discussed in another thread there are only 3 channels that can be used without overlapping, channels 1, 6 and 11. So basically you want to alternate between those 3 channels in order to allow the most effective roaming. If you are using wireless bridges, then like you need to assign one channel to the bridges and alternate between the other two in the stacks. So channel 6 might be your bridge channel and then the radios in the attic alternate between channels 1 and 11. Also, make sure the SSID and encryption are the same on all of your radios.

What you are talking about can be done. Heck, I've actually done it. But be warned, it is not a simple weekend project. There are a lot of issues that come into play when you start getting into enterprise designs such as this. For example, most APs have reasonably small bridging tables so it is important to isolate traffic as discussed before and attics get pretty darn hot so some environmental engineering is necessary if you want the radios to last any length of time. Anyway, that's the quick primer. Let me know if you have any additional questions.

 

Heh heh. Yep. We are getting more ambitious. OK, let's talk about a wireless campus design.

First, let's talk about the base infrastructure before we worry about the wireless portion. You are right that broadband would need to come into some point and then be connected to a router. That router is pretty important so let's talk about what it does. The Internet Service Provider (ISP) assigns an IP address to your account, but you only get one IP address. Each PC needs its own IP address. When you only have one PC connected to a cable modem it isn't a big deal - the PC gets the one address from the ISP and everything works just fine. But ion a house with multiple devices trying to connect, the router is the one that takes the address assigned by the ISP and it is the only device that talks to the ISP. It then assigns its own address to each of the computers or other devices in your house. This is all important because the only real limit on the number of devices behind the router is how many addresses it can assign. Most routers are limited to 255 address so it is very rare for a home network to exceed the maximum.

As you indicate, a more realistic maximum is determined by bandwidth usage. How many users you can "fit" onto one broadband circuit is completely dependent upon how heavy the usage is. As a rule of thumb you can get about 60 residents on one broadband circuit if they are your general light users who are primarily surfing the web and checking email. That number falls to 10 - 20 if your users are spending considerable time downloading pictures or music or other very high bandwidth activities (and perhaps even lower if they have schedules that cause them all to use their computers at the same exact time).

OK, the number of physical ethernet ports isn't a limiting factor because you can "daisy chain" devices as you indicated. One switch or hub can plug into the next in order to extend the network. There are a couple of things to be aware of. First, you want a device with an "uplink" port. On an ethernet link, there is a transmit line and a receive line. On a hub or switch, the position of thesse lines are reversed from where they are on a PC adapter so that the receive on the switch connects to the transmit on a PC and vice versa. If you connect a regular switch port to another regular switch port, then receive will be connected to receive and transmit to transmit. That won't work. A "uplink" port just reverses them so they connect properly. Not though that the uplink port on one switch needs to connect to a regular port on the other switch. If you connect an uplink port to another uplink port then they are reversed on both sides and won't work. Also note some slightly more advanced switches are "autodetect" and the individual plugs on the switch just figure it out for themselves. If your switches don't have uplink ports and are not autodetecting, you can still connect everything by using a special cable that reverses the transmit and send wires in the cable. This type of cable is called a "crossover cable". As an aside, a crossover cable also allows 2 PCs to connect directly to each other. One way to transfer files quickly from one PC to another is to use a crossover cable to connect the ethernet ports in each of them and then manually configure the network and give them each an IP address (such as 10.1.1.1 and 10.1.1.2) so that you can use network neighborhood between them when you don't have a switch.

When networks start getting big by daisy chaining devices, you do run into some additional issues. First, switches are far superior to hubs because they have a level of intelligence in them. Hubs just repeat everything so any traffic on the network goes to every device. Switches just send things down the proper branch and therefore limit unnecessary traffic. Also, the more you cascade things, the more impact a single hardware failure will have. If switch A connects to the router/Internet and then A connects to B, B connects to C, and C connects to D, then a user connecting to switch D will lose service if A, B, C or D fails. A better solution would be to connect B, C and D all to A and then hang the users off of the spoke switches. And finally, if you do have things cascading you do not want to connect them back to together in a loop. If we go back to A -> B, B -> C, C -> D, then you do not want to connect D back to A. That just confuses these inexpensive devices and leads to bad broadcast storms.

OK, that's the basics on the wired infrastructure. If you followed all of that, congratulations you likely know more than some of the network engineers I have met. ;-) Next, we'll talk about the wireless component.

 

It's getting a little serious now, but it's all good and thanks so much for your explainations.

::ROUTER:
::::::: security and assigning different IP addresses to each device on the network. Cool.

- will each device get a different IP address assigned for each request or connection it makes with the router, or does router dish out the IP address on the first connect and that stays with the device forever?

- is the IP address supplied by the ISP a static or fixed address? With my current dial up the ip address they assign differes each time I dial up, I think.

- 255 devices for the wireless router might just about be enough ---- LOL

- ok,for the wireless option- so a bridge will help keep the connection alive, and this can be achieved with a couple of ap's provided their antennaes are good directional ones pointed at each other. If the router does the IP assigning, can it still do it to every device downstream of the ap's? i mean, say I have the first bridge using the ap's, and there are three devices primarily connecting to the ap on the downstream side of the first bridge. Say these are two computers and another ap (the upstream side of another bridge). Down stream of this second bridge, say two devices connected - two computers. So, the signal that is coming from the ap of the upstream side of the first bridge is going to have how many devices needing to be assigned a different ip address by the router? Will it be simply the four devices, or does it also count the ap's that make the bridges, so there will be 8 devices. I guess that the Ap's have a way of switching or naming each device connecting to it, right? Otherwise how would the router know of and then assign a different ip address to each device downstream of the most upstream ap?

Also, what if the signal between the router and the devices primarily downstream of the first bridge is sometimes strong enough to not need the ap? What does the router do in that situation to not duplicate the devices coming from the first ap? I'm not sure if that makes sense. I'll try again ;-): I'm trying to figure out how the router decides to just deal with the signals coming from the first ap or the devices primarily connect to the router directly, and not any rougue signals from devices downstream of the first bridge that may bypass the frist bridge? I guess this has to do with selecting the best channels, but I'm still a bit vague on that. I'll read that paragragh again and try to get my head around it before asking anymore questions.

::::Bridging::
:::::::::::::

- Borrowng from your daisy chain warning, I can see that if a bridge fails, everything downstream is stranded, right? So any way of minimising the number of AP's needed is key. I could ask the cable guy to put the connection in the middle of the courtyard but I guess our game would be up and questions would be asked ;-).

- So the next best thing would be choosing the middle or highest apartment to receive the incomming broadband signal,the idea being this would minimise the amount of daisy chaining going on. I mean, say there are five apartments, we get the signal into the 3rd one and then bridge to the left apartment 3->4,4->5 and then to the right 3->2, 2->1. I guess this still leaves those in houses 1 and 5 a little more exposed to issues because they are on the end of the trunk line, so to speak. i guess with a strong enough signal, we may be able to go 1,2<->3<->4,5, which would be good, right? I have questions about signal stringth below, though.
Fortunately, my sister is in the middle placed apartment so access to the main connection and router will never be an issue, if anything goes wrong.

- The ultimate, I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, is to get a router on steriods that can broadcast to every darn apartment without the bridges being needed, but then i guess every device, especially those further out (not necessarily by distance but by signal obstructions) would need to shoot a strong enough signal straight back to the router, which could be a problem?

::Signal strengths:
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- do they vary much between different aps and routers? and also, following on from my last question, i guess the signal strangth of any lan card or usb adapter or print server is an issue also?

- what are the numbers i need to be concerned with when buying these things.

- how does an ap differ from a booster and is the latter any good?

- one scenario might be to have the boradband come into the building to the router and then shot straight accross the courtyard to an external ap (exist?) and then back to each house which has an AP (or maybe not need the ap at the house?), then everyone except the router located house is on the same level - two (or one -see brackets above) bridges away from the router, which might be fairer to everyone?, however, if the first bridge died, all the other places connections would fall over. I think I'm chsing my tail on this one. but just trying to figure out the best way to do it that is fairest to all and less hassle for me in the long run ( i dont want to be reveing calls every other days saying this or that isn't working) maybe the first week while it gets set up.

:::Security::
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- How would each of the housholds be sure the others weren't eaves dropping on their emails or web sufing and down/uploads?


Well, that's another large stack of your time asnwering these questions. I really do appreciate your help. but pleae, if I am too demanding, just say so. I'm so keen to learn, but do not want to be too demanding ;-)