What do i do with MSI support answers like this?

I have been experiencing an issue that is most likely (99%) BIOS related. I have done everything possible to fix it. I'll explain shortly: basically whenever you put the laptop to sleep or hibernate mode and then wake the device up the Wireless Adapter fails to turn on and goes into a state of apparent "failure" but in reality if you put it to sleep again and wake it up, sometimes it comes back. When it doesn't, you need to power off the device and turn it on again.

Drivers update did not fix it, factory reset neither, any power management adjustment doesn't work unless you want to leave your laptop on all the time, which is not a good option imho.

Of course their suggestions did not work, and i know there is a fix because as @Falkentyne (pardon the tag spam) told me it was fixed on his GT73VR in the past and indeed it was, i checked the changelog of their BIOS updates and it is mentioned:

What i did was to write them down all the recent topics of people having this issue and finding no solutions just like me, so i proceeded to link them these three topics:

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=309310.0
https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=286284.0
https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=282054.0

In the last one @Killer_Networking Anthony mentioned the BIOS fix, i've seen he did it in multiple forums where people had this issue, including Alienware, MSI reddit and MSI forum recently.

My question is, how can i ask them to post a BIOS fix if they keep me giving as answer to reinstall Windows or reinstall drivers when i already told them it did not work?
What do you think it's the best to do?

 

You need to have it escalated to a high level tech.
I suggest calling them on the phone and explaining the situation and explaining that their email support is not helping at all AND is dodging the problem.
No one here works at MSI so no one here can pull strings for you unfortunately.

 

Perhaps you need to send the system in for a check up as it might have been a HW-related issue which requires a replacement of the device itself.

 

So you're saying that everyone that has a GT73, GT72, GT62, GS63, GS60, Dell XPS15, Dell XPS 13, Alienware laptops, all those people with these devices had hardware issues that are 100% the same i got? No thanks, i don't buy that. It's BIOS and even Killer Networking states it. Now if it's really BIOS or their drivers conflicting with something in the BIOS i don't know.
Heck there is even a fix for GT73 and not for the rest of the devices that had this issue.

 

Have you updated the BIOS which is the one that's supposed to resolve the issue? If yes but the issue isn't resolved, then it takes more than BIOS to resolve it.
You have already done everything, why not let MSI to take a look at it?

 

Because MSI doesn't care.
Trust me, they don't.
It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to reach an engineer who can fix the problem unless you are a popular streamer, sponsored gamer or a VERY famous person!!!!!!!!!!

 

Send them what you posted here, in an abbreviated form - show the previous BIOS notation for the GT73 noting it's the same problem you are experiencing and how others have said that BIOS update fixed that problem on the GT73

I wouldn't make it any longer than that - and include the links to the GT73 release note and BIOS and ask them to escalate your request and detailed information to the Engineering Manger for your laptop model to add the fix to your model's BIOS.

Unfortunately this isn't an uncommon issue, at hibernation / sleep wake some device doesn't respond, that's why I don't use hibernation or sleep, over the years it's been too taxing emotionally to keep fighting it with every Windows (or other OS) release that breaks sleep / hibernation and every device that has glitches like this potentially at every Windows (OS) or driver (or BIOS) update.

Laptops boot fast enough now with SSD's and fast CPU's, so it's less of an issue than it once was to do a full boot at the beginning of each use session.

That's also why I use my phone for so many things these days, and rarely pull out a laptop for email, notes, documents, reading / video, it's all done on the phone as it's always on and ready - and much smaller to carry and pull out for use.

Did you try going into the device / network manager when coming out of sleep and twiddling the wifi device on and off? Sometimes that works, disable the Network device through the Network Manger, right click on the network device in the systray, select Network Manger => Manage Network Connections => right click on Wifi interface then toggle Disable / Enable, sometimes that works

 

Yeah guys, i have already sent them like ten messages to which they replied, all the time, with update drivers / clean install drivers and some other copy pasta.
I have shown them the bios changelog of the GT73 and also sent them what Killer Networking websites says about it, and guess what they did? They did read the first two lines of that page where it says Windows 1809 causes this issue and keep insisting it's because of that and that i need to downgrade to 1803. So i told them i have already done that and that i had this issue on every windows version, including 1803 and that it didn't work.

They know jackshit about this issue. Their forum is filled with topics like mine on any kind of recent laptop. Tbh, i feel done with them. Who cares, i'll leave my laptop on all the time for their own ********. They won't pass me to higher level tech member so why bother, i ain't gonna buy MSI again because i don't want to spend my time fixing stupid issues on a 2k laptop.

 

I'm asking them a BIOS fix, there is no BIOS update that addresses this issue for my GT62

 

Yeah, it always seems like you are hitting a brick wall, at least on the first time through all the way to the Manager of the frontline support, and then on through to the Manager of Engineering, then to the Manger of the Engineering group, and finally getting a response from the technical staff - it can take different route(s) and add / skip levels, and since I have been doing this for years and have a lot of tickets on file they usually don't give me the run around.

You have to be patient, short and to the point - and only deal with one point at a time - and not be rude or demanding as those are excuses for them to ignore or slow roll your responses.

It sounds like you are hitting the right things and places, you just need to tighten it up and continue to persist patiently - you need to be calm even to yourself as it shows through whether you think you've toned down what you've written to them or not - it's showing through here

They are right to think it's OS related, as it often is for them, even if in this particular case it's not. That's one of the frustrations of supporting Windows computers.

It's the reason I suggest people do an immediate backup of their original OS image using something like Macrium Reflect, and save that image to restore later in case the built in Restore or Reset get ruined by a Windows point update - as it does often do.

And, even better pull out the OEM drive with the OS Install and set it aside to put in for checking such problems in the future. You can swap it back in and check for sleep / hibernation, network, display, game, etc problems under the original OS image when reporting problems to Support, as they will want you to verify the problem happens in the original OS they shipped with the laptop / computer - that's their reference point for knowing for sure the OS is how they expect it.

So, I'd do just that. Backup what you have so you as a Macrium image so you can restore it after testing, and Restore/Reset to the original OS image - then back it up to an image before futzing around with it, and then do your testing on the out of the box OS config.

Then you can report this to Support, and they know what a pain it is to do it and usually this is enough to show them you are serious in getting this fixed. Reiterate that you are looking for the same kind of BIOS fix for your GT62 as was done for the GT73, reference the Ticket # that includes that info if it gets closed and you are following up with a new Ticket # to keep the chain of support intact.

Sorry, but it's always pretty much the same story until they get a history of support with you that you can refer to to show them you are reliably reporting things - they have to make sure they aren't wasting their time with someone too.

Good luck, and please let us know how it goes.

 

Oh trust me i've been polite to them, it's just that they keep repeating same stuff over and over when i already wrote them it didn't work and my suggestions get ignored.
I'm not going to insult them on the web ticket, there is no point in that.

 

Good, if they keep asking you to try it on the original OS, that's what it will take for them to move forward.

If you don't have the original OS any longer, tell them, and they may change their tact and provide another option, probably RMA which wouldn't be bad given that you'd get a reload of the original OS - for them to do that test.

AFAIK they won't just send you the OS image, or make it available for download, and you have to send in the whole laptop - not just the storage device.

If you need the OS image, you could try finding a local location with that laptop on display and bring a USB drive with Macrium Reflect and a USB thumb drive of at least 32GB to accept the image - the process will erase the destination drive completely, so I'd just use a new 32GB flash drive.

If you still have the recovery image on your drive you can do this at home with a new flash drive, then backup your drive as is to image for each device and restore from that bootable recovery flash drive to the OEM OS image and test hibernation / sleep.

If you have any questions, please let us know.

 

What version of BIOS & EC do you currently have?
Is it GT62VR 6RD? If yes, are you on E16L2IMS.311 and 16L2EMS1.107?

 

BIOS is E16L2IMS.116, there is no .311 version (it's for 7RD, i got 6RD) and i reverted it back to the previous release because i didn't want to deal with Spectre & Meltdown bullcrap microcode update.
Nowhere in the release notes they mention a wifi fix and it's indeed not fixed on latest bios available.

 

I see, so it's different product different BIOS. Did you have this issue right from the beginning since you got the machine? Or if the issue developed on its own?
If it's the first one then I would still recommend you to go with RMA, but if it's 2nd one plus support from everyone else with exactly the same/identical system as well as the symptom then you would get better result from MSI.

 

RMA is not an option for me at moment, mate. The closest centre is too far and it would take too much time that will leave me without the device that i need, not to mention the hassle in-case something goes wrong. For something this stupid, and easy fixable (like it was for GT73VR) i'm not going to RMA it, at least not now.

I'm just pressing on them that it's BIOS related, linking every possible thread i find on their forum and also this one i found about GT73VR

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=298138.0

This guy had the same issue, the difference is that for GT73VR they released the BIOS fix, but never for the GT62VR and other GT series laptops with this issue.
I want them to acknowledge this because i've been reading of people that have even tried to RMA it but the issue persisted and eventually they went for a laptop that wasn't MSI. It's clearly them and their politics that is keeping this issue alive even in the latest gens of their laptops.

 

It's not this complicated, and we were still trying to understand the issue you are having. Did you have this issue right from the beginning since you got the machine? Or if the issue developed on its own?

An issue has to be reproducible for them to fix, and if they were able to do it on GT73 (17A1) they would do it on other models automatically without anyone to ask as this has always been the case.
GT73 (17A1/Intel 7th gen) is not the same as GT62 (16L2/Intel 6th gen), which is the motherboard design and BIOS design. If you say GT63 of the same generation also experiences the same issue then that's a *more likely* possibility and a reasonable doubt.

Suggestion:
Since you don't want to send the system in and be without your PC, you can purchase a replacement WLAN card of your choice (cheaper and you don't have to ship your PC). Try to replace the WLAN on your own and see if this works out or not.
1~5 out of 50 units can start develop fault components throughout their lives, and normally users would provide feedback when there are issues. If an obvious issue is nearly 100% reproducible by users and RD engineers then a fix can be released in 1 week most of the time. There's no politics behind engineering teams as they do their job to investigate and resolve issues unless specific requests that are beyond normal scope (which isn't for your case).

 

The Bios design is extremely similar.
Keep in mind that there is both a Skylake GT73VR (6th gen) AND a Kaby Lake GT73VR (7th gen). You can even flash the Kaby Lake EC (17A1EMS1.108 or 17A1EMS1.109, dont ask me how to get .109, you will have to extract it yourself) into the Skylake system, although the bios itself is not cross flashable.

The bug is the exact same bug. The problem is that MSI likes to fix things in "current" boards while ignoring old boards. I

 

How many users are impacted by this bug (let's just focus on GT62VR 6RD)? How many units did MSI sell? Did you talk to any engineer in MSI directly about this issue?
If you could cross-flash (I know you can), have you tried flashing the BIOS with the bug patched and verified the outcome with WLAN adapter issue?

 

I agree with that. I have not used sleep/hybernation in many years. SSDs are so fast that it's irrelevant.

I know this is not the solution OP seeks but just as a thought. Instead of fighting this losing battle. and getting frustrated. come to think of it, I never used hybernation in my life, there is no need for it.

there is nothing wrong with leaving the machine on all the time, my machine is fully SSD, there are no moving parts (other than fans) or if you must sleep/hybernate, just shut down it and it's up in 25 seconds.

I have seen boot times even faster than that, so 25-30 seconds is on the slower side.

When you can boot your box in 15 seconds, what is the point of sleep or hybernation.

 

This bug affected most people with Killer cards using sleep.
Most people don't use sleep because it takes 8 seconds to boot the computer.
Intel cards were not affected.

 

Only MSI would knows if this is really an issue or not because they oversee the entire product lines so it's their call.

 

It's a bug, as i said, that is shown also on laptops like Dell XPS, Alienware, anything that uses a wifi Killer card (except for the 1550 which is an intel card rebranded afaik) has this issue. Some manufacturers fixed it with BIOS update, MSI did it only for the GT73 apparently.
If you have a look at the thread for GT62VR discussions, multiple people before me had this issue. I have it since day one, i said it already. I always had it because like other people explained on that thread, it's a bug that you notice as soon you start putting your laptop to sleep or hibernation.

I agree that it takes less time just to shut the laptop off and turn it back on but if i have to do that, i feel i wasted my money on something that doesn't work properly. My boot time is under 5 seconds so no problem about that, i just find it annoying not being able to use sleep whenever i want to without this happening.

 

Can you send us an email to [email protected] with your testing procedures and finds as well as other links? We can reach out to MSI and see what they say about this, thanks.

 

Thank you Kevin, i have sent an email to the address. Hopefully they can be reasonable with you guys

 

We will try, usually an issue needs to be very *clear*, *detailed*, and *reproducible* to be accepted by R&D engineers, otherwise they can dismiss it as faulty HW or other factors.

 

i forgot to mention that you can trigger this issue easily by just putting the laptop to sleep in different intervals. Like sleep > wake up > sleep > wake up again (it doesn't matter how much time passes, it happens if it's 30 seconds or 2 hours).

 

After these answers, after i linked them every single topic of people having my same issue on my same laptop, after explaining to them that another laptop of theirs had the same issue and they fixed it i decided to give up on it and let the ticket go in closed status. There is no point in replying to them, they don't understand at all what you write to them and instead redirect you to solutions that are even outdated (like updating drivers from their website lmao). Calling them doesn't help either. I ain't gonna RMA a BIOS issue that they don't acknowledge. Screw you.

I'll learn to live with it, whatever.

(these are not all the answers they gave me, but the most recent ones. Every single time they find an excuse or say it's related to this and a day later, they say the opposite.)

 

Sorry it worked out this way, and thank you for updating us on their responses. I don't know how to encourage you to continue, as you've clearly had enough, but hopefully someone else will pick up the torch and continue bugging MSI to get their frontline management to get the attention of the Engineering team, and for the MSI Engineering team to provide a fix.

Sometimes you have to loosen the jar, and then let someone else open it.

 

Ugh. I'm sorry to hear of the problems that you are experiencing with this, and I'm sorry that my suggestions didn't lead anywhere useful. The simple fact is, if the issue was driver-related at all, the device would still appear in Device Manager. It might appear as an "Unknown Device" or have an error on it but, in order for it to not appear in Device Manager at all, it's either not being powered, or the motherboard isn't seeing recognizing that it's powered. The same goes for any device attached to a Windows machine. If it doesn't appear in Device Manager, it's not powered or is physically not connected properly, which isn't possible with a device that does come on at reboot. Either way, it's either a BIOS issue or an issue with the motherboard and, considering they have fixed this problem with some machines with BIOS updates, it must be a BIOS issue. It's possible that they're circumventing a Windows 10 issue with something in the BIOS but, if so, they're not telling.

It's also not just our devices. It's any M.2 wireless adapter with Windows 10. Even though we have hundreds of thousands of 1435, 1535 and 1525s out there, we don't even make the front page on Google when searching for this issue - https://www.google.com/search?q=wif...hrome.0.0l6.7214j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

It's mostly a bunch of Intel adapters with a few Realteks mixed in. This is likely just a representation of what M.2 adapters are out there. I'm sure I could find our adapters in later pages but, the point is, it's every M.2 adapter.

It's also not any specific manufacturer.

I have even had users tell me that they have replaced our adapters with Intel adapters, and the problem seems to be solved for a little while, and then it happens again with the Intel adapter.

-- Anthony with Killer Networking

 

Just FWIW, but be aware that the "October" Windows update wiped out my Killer wifi driver. I lost all wifi capabilities and had to reinstall the driver. this is squarely Microsoft's fault, that update was an utter disaster.

I just couldnot believe that, and after installing the driver, it still did not work until I patched it.