GT70 cooling issues with 780m?

Hi, first post here so please be gentle.

My Toshiba Satellite laptop is dying and I need a replacement. Figured I'd get a top of the line gaming laptop for all my mobile needs, and if I'm still heavy on the gaming scene a couple years down the road, then I'll simply get a desktop and keep the laptop for when I need to travel. Anyway...

Right now one of my options is an MSI GT70 with the 780M GPU. I will have it heavily customized by XoticPC since nothing stock really piques my fancy. However, from the start I have been a bit concerned by the fact that the GT70 chassis only has a single fan, and AnandTech (link) seems to confirm my fears: that a single fan for something like the 780M and a Haswell CPU just isn't enough to get the job done properly.

In addition, I noticed for some reason in the GT70 the 780M core is only clocked at 771 MHz, as opposed to the standard 823 MHz. Is MSI deliberately downclocking the GPU for some reason? Perhaps due to thermal issues?

If any existing GT70 owner (preferably with a 780M GPU) could chime on this that would really help. Thanks!

 

I own a Barebones GT70 from XoticPC with 780M GPU and for me it runs cool and many of the games I play run smoothly. Its probably because of the two vents from the top left of the laptop. ^_^

Intel Core i7 4700MQ
Nvidia Geforce GTX 780M
1TB 7200 RPM Hard Drive
8 gb RAM
Regular CD/DVD Drive
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Bigfoot Killer Wireless-N 1103 w/ 3rd Antenna

the only issue i have with my laptop is the wireless card. Its mostly due to bad driver support and from my experience, I would recommend choosing an Intel Network Card if you ever given the chance. If not, there may be a chance you will get a lot of connection drops in online games.

 

Thanks for the quick reply. Could you do me a favor and check the core clock of the 780M in your GT70? I want to know if AnandTech got an engineering sample or if MSI actually did decide to downclock the 780M slightly in the GT70.

And that's pretty ironic about the Bigfoot card, especially since their selling point was less lag for online gaming...

 

Boost Clock is 850MHZ, Standard Clock is 771Mhz

 

On a separate note, what's your experience with Optimus in GT70? Seems like Optimus still has some switching issues with certain games, but how does the GT70 fair specifically? I never quite understood putting Optimus on high end GPUs like the 780M, I mean if I wanted battery power I wouldn't be buying a laptop with a power hungry GPU in the first place, but I digress.

 

Optimus is working fine for me I don't mind it at all. Performance wise, it's the same as the 780M with a higher clock in the ASUS G750. It'll come to a difference of less than a frame in the tested games. Here's the review for the G750:

Review Update Asus G750JH-T4080H Notebook - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

It appears as if you'd be more comfortable with a G750 though if optimus is a concern as the Asus doesn't have it. The G750 is also quieter and it provides better cooling due to the dual fan design (From what I've seen haswell just tends to run hot no matter what though.) Keep in mind that you'll need to update the bios in the G750 to get full CPU power off battery (the current stock bios locks the CPU to 0.77Ghz when there is no power brick connected). Battery life is more or less the same between the MSI and the Asus (the review is before the Bios update came out that fixes the CPU locking issue).

The perk to the GT70 for me is the excellent sound system, easy access to internals (G750 is very compact) and the keyboard (my personal preference). Good luck picking out your laptop .

 

Ha you read my mind. The G750JH was indeed another laptop I was considering. The one thing I don't like about the G750 is that there's no option to upgrade the CPU since the 4700HQ is permanently fixed to the MB with the BGA mount. My ideal rig would have been a 4800MQ paired with a non-Optimus 780M, but I don't think such a combo exists. I realize that the CPU won't be the bottleneck for 95% of the games, but it's just nice to have the extra processing power for when you do need it.

 

The GPU is a custom size in the G750 if I remember correctly so upgrading or getting a replacement might not be the easiest thing. The CPU is definitely soldered too. Maybe Sager or Alienware may be an option. I'm not sure if they both use optimus though. I personally don't have an issue with it. My GPU switches on when it needs to.

 

Unfortunately yes both Sager and Alienware use Optimus on all their cards. The only ones that don't are the Asus ROG series as well as certain last gen MSI GT60 models that have the MX (eg 675MX) cards.

In any case I've ruled out Sager and Alienware a long time ago for various reasons. I think for me it all boils down to what I prefer more -- a non-Optimus 780M with a neutered and non-upgradeable CPU (yes I'm calling the 4700HQ neutered ), or an upgradeable CPU and GPU that comes with Optimus. Hmm...

 

Actually all MSI models of the ivy bridge gen and after (3xxx CPUs) use optimus.

One thing that MSI do in the current generation (and the workstation ivy models) is route the HDMI and displayport to the dedicated GPU so those connections don't use optimus while the VGA and internal panel do.

The CPU is soldered and the GPU is not upgradable (custom PCB) in the Asus.

 

All this does is automatically turn on the dGPU when you have something connected to the HDMI and force anything being played on it to use the Nvidia card.

It doesn't suddenly negate the disadvantages of using an Optimus device such as the lack of adaptive v-sync.

 

The MSI GT series with a 780m does NOT have any cooling issues at all, aside from the requirement to use the turbo/boost fan during certain graphics heavy games. For example BF3, and BF4 will defnitely require you turn the boost cooler on. While my laptop has never overheated, and will throttle the GPU to stock clocks when it hits 92C, then it cools down, and repeats this cycle. Again this is without the cooler boost on, and using stock EC fan profiles.

You can choose to use Dave Pearson's software to set the fan speed to your desired % for optimal noise/cooling levels. I just find it best, to use headphones (I do anyways) and put the fan to max Powah. The GPU and CPU stay nice and cool and never have throttled even once. Usually GPU tops out around 75C and CPU a bit lower when playing BF3 maxed. And I have a 4900MQ, which does run a tad bit warmer due to the higher clock rate.

Also, the MSI screen is better from what I hear, and the speakers aren't even close. I have experienced 0 issues with Optimus, and simply love it. I will never buy another laptop without it. Name another gaming laptop that has this much power, and about 4.5-5 hours of battery life while doing less intensive tasks. I love being off my power cord while relaxing in bed, and the laptop stays at a very comfortable temperature.

The next biggest thing is the fact that the Asus is basically what you see is what you're stuck with forever. There will be no upgrading the CPU to XM when prices fall, and good luck with any GPU upgrades. I don't buy the argument of just buy a new laptop, and that you're spending more upgrading. I call BS on that. My old GX660 was a complete beast when I sold it this year. I went from a 5870m to a 6990m, to a 7970m, and all ran like champs. I was able to sell my old 5870m for around $175 and got the 6990m for around $250, and sold it for the same, and got my 7970m for around $450. Total investment was $275, and it still out performed the latest Asus (pre G750) in all games and was almost 2.5 years old. Compared to the price of the lastest Asus top of the line $2500 minus of course whatever you get for your old rig.

I can only hope to get the same level of performance out of my current GT60.

 

So, switching issues and the lack of adaptive v-sync aside, what are some other disadvantages of an Optimus system?

 

LCD panel overclocking is the only other downfall that comes to mind. With optimus, you can't overclock the internal display's refresh rate. I personally don't have issues with mine switching and adaptive v-sync may be a mixed bag for some people from what I've read.

 

Optimiss runs amazing. And having it in a laptop with a 780m is an AMAZING idea. When on AC and gaming you get top notch performance but when taking it on flights or just having it away from the AC on the couch doing things on the internet or having the GF able to watch a movie in the car yields almost 4.5 hours of battery and it says nice and cool.

Why would you NOT want that??? A laptop with the best of both worlds. Amazing AC performance AND amazing battery life.

Honestly folks, optimiss has no disadvantage what so ever! If in the rare instance, the software chooses the wrong GPU to run on, its super easy to change it manually. And with the power button changing color depending on what GPU you are using, you can just see at a glance if its your preferred renderer.

Again, there is nothing wrong with having a laptop with the best of both worlds. When gaming and doing very intensive things, use the AC power. But why not have great battery life as well?? I will NEVER buy a laptop without optimiss again.

 

Sorry but that is incorrect. The dedicated connections bypass the optimus method. You can check by disabling the internal graphics with the unlocked bios and running off those two external ports.

Optimus always comes down to the way the chips and ports are wired together.

Also you can overclock monitors on the dedicated ports. It's a hybrid setup.

 

Hey Meaker, sorry to hijack the thread but couldn't find a way to PM. Did you ever get that MXM-B card sorted?

 

That would probably explain why the MSI GT60 doesn't automatically disable the LCD backlight properly when connected to an external monitor like other Optimus implementations. It also explains why you cannot force something to render with the Intel graphics while connected to the HDMI port.

Nvidia's official response to not supporting adaptive v-sync for Optimus devices is because the video has to be routed through Intel's device; while MSI adaptation overcomes this limitation on the HDMI port by directly hardwiring it, it still lacks adaptive v-sync support because Optimus drivers have the option removed/disabled/whatever.

 

It's also why the 3k edition will support nvidia surround where others dont as the 3 outputs on that model (2 displayports and 1 HDMI) are connected to the dGPU so all 3 in the mutli display have a direct connection.

 

Vouching for the GT60 as well as supporting the comments by both Talon and Meaker, the GT60/70 has several advantages regarding both the cooling solution, and the ports for bypassing Optimus by being hybrid.

I tested extensively with multiple monitors. While the regular GT60/70 can't use nVidia Surround to play in multiple monitors, they do support external monitors up to three external and also the internal display all together. The Display port and HDMI are routed directly to the dGPU and the VGA and Internal display are routed to the Intel HD iGPU. Even if you can't play on all of them, multitasking is amazing. I use mine connected to the display port on a small "hub" and acts as a desktop, and works great with no issues.

Cooling performance can be said to have the advantage of actually being very good and powerful, but at the cost of noise. A properly pasted machine will be silent on idle or productivity, and will get hot when playing demanding games. MSI chose very conservative fan speeds so it is rather silent all the time, and you can enable 100% fan speed for super cool temps at the cost of noise. I prefer to modify my fan tables with Pherein's method using RWEverything and it has worked great for me.

Finally, that review of Anandtech is terrible. The whole conclusion was based on an assumption than a single fan is at fault when this single fan from MSI moves enough air to cool off components comparably to most dual fan setups. It is true that factory laptops comes with a bit too much thermal paste, but nothing that a good paste job can't fix. All brands do face a bit of hot temps with these high end laptops, but all so far are rather manageable.

There are better reviews for MSI's GT series, including one from this domain, that I believe is at the front page?

 

It's going to be rare that a single card will do well driving 3x1080p panels in surround gaming anyway. If you really want that the 3k will fit the bill though.

It's also likely that the MSI will support G-Sync through the displayport but that depends on how nvidia want to play it.

 

Thanks for everyone's input thus far, it has been really helpful. Doing some digging on these forums, it seems that the GT60/70 with the 780M may run into some thermal issues IF the paste job from the factory was bad, and nothing a repaste can't fix. While this is encouraging, it still make me wonder why MSI's quality control didn't pick up on this.

Also, I just read that the GT70 comes with a 180W power supply. Considering the TDP of the 780M is 100W and 4800MQ is 47W, can the 180W power supply handle the energy demand? I know there's the NOS feature that draws extra current from the battery if necessary, but this just seems like it may damage the battery in the long run. I thought about just getting a 230W supply myself, but apparently the AC jack has only 2 pins and the extra power wouldn't be used anyway? (read about this somewhere on this forum)

 

The 180W is fine for stock, NOS is used to overclock the CPU when a 4930MX is installed.

 

Yes, the 180w PSU is the max that can be used for now. A higher PSU can be used but it simply won't use the extra power. The long term damage on the battery remains to be seen as the battery NOS system seems to only engage in very demanding situations, mostly when you overclock your GPU or CPU. I have played a lot of games where my battery consumption has been basicaly 0% for hours.

As far as thermal issues, I think MSI had a bit more problems by making the fan spin at low RPMs in general. Cranking up turbo fan to make it run at 100% surprises users with very cool temps. One would think that ramping up the fan to near 100% would have helped fight the image of a hot machine.

 

It would not help the noise figures though

 

*jet engine taking off*

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

 

Psssh noise. But I think I'm biased because my first laptop was a Compaq with AMD Turion 64 and that thing would just run at full blast all the time. Had at least 5 instances of the CPU cutting power entirely to prevent frying itself. Bought the laptop in 2005 and amazingly it still runs to this day, though it does take a full 10 minutes to boot into Windows XP.

The Toshiba Satellite isn't any better, 740QM + 350GTS and only a single fan = running at 70% most of the time = noise. But seems like I'm used to it so it doesn't bother me. So I guess in my case I would much prefer a nosier system with better cooling.

 

Yeah this is why I don't mind the noise mysefl. When playing with turbo fan sure it is noisy but when I see the temps I have even overclocked, I don't mind.

 

More like an hairdryier though
All that noise is partly related to Intel's Haswell CPUs running hotter than expected at load. With Broadwell we should see some improvements (I hope they don't screw up again this time and cause another delay in 2015)

BTW: There are fans that produce a little more than 38 CFM and are less noisy but they would need a custom design and a 10000 unit order minimum

 

Thats if we get a socketed broadwell.

 

A friend of mine who works at Intel told me we should be getting an M series for notebooks and D series for desktops (PGA pin style). Embedded systems, SFFs and ultrabooks are getting the soldered BGA version. Rumor is that voltage regulators are being moved off-package to reduce heat an rellocated on the motherboard again. Let's hope they resolve the heat part this time (and socket pin mapping gets preserved