Dear MSI - Fix your cooling design

I will never, under any circumstances buy another MSI gaming notebook until you start offering better cooling on your notebooks.

I was happy with my GT70 0NE earlier. Until I bought this Alienware 18.
It have one more graphic card than the GT70, with atleast 50W more heat to remove. It is dead silent when not gaming. Cannot hear it at all. GT70 fan however was on the whole time. Although not very noisy, the fan was still present and easily detectable during night. When gaming, the Alienware 18 is hardly heard. Various reviews have found that it produce around 40dB when gaming. Speaking from my GT70 experience, the fan was increasingly noisy with the MSI notebook. I`m not speaking about the turbo fan mode, which is way too loud. I`m speaking about the automatic fan speed.
Some people say you can drown it out with headphones. I adapted and was accustomed to the fan noise from GT70. I thought it was normal for a gaming notebook.
It is not.
I can clearly hear the music from the onboard speakers with the fans running on this notebook. From speakers on low volume, who are subpar and far less impressive as your Dynaudio speakers. I don`t have to wear headphones and I don`t have to be annoyed by the fan noise from the GT70.

Then there is the temperatures. The GTX 680M on my GT70 touched around 80C-85C when gaming. My GTX 770M overclocked to 1000MHz, runs at max 75C. And run still way more quiet than the GT70.

Do you not see the problem here? I`ve read your respond here earlier, where an employee of you said that they didn`t want to incorporate dual fans because they didn`t want the extra fan to use battery life. That is pure BS and you know it. I have 3 fans on my Alienware 18, 2 more than the GT70 and I have the same battery life as the GT70. Why? Because the fans doesn`t even have to run on this notebook when I`m not gaming. And people rarely game on battery.

All OEMs except MSI have dual fan now. Asus, Clevo, Alienware, even Samsung. You are the only one with this stone age design.
The new design you made on the GT70 with 780M was laughable. If CPU runs alone, its a legit design because you have a big heatsink alone for that CPU. But when gaming, you run both the GPU and the CPU at the same time. Meaning the heat from the CPU reach the GPU and vice versa. And that poor fan have to remove all that heat. The Alienware 18 with 2 x 780M runs quieter and cooler. It speaks volume.

I speak as a previous MSI fan. I have defended you in various reviews, but with my Alienware experience, I cannot longer do that. You can market your designs with impressive words like "COOLER BOOST" and draw suckers in, but the truth remains: You have a crappy cooling design compared to Alienware. Period.

If you continue with the same GT60/70 design next year too, after so many years on this ancient old design, you clearly give a big F about notebooks. Its outdated.

Fix your ****.
1 fan cooling design in 2013 is unheard!

/rant

 

Come on. I was expecting a massive rage from MSI owners in this thread

lol, nobody even with an opinion?

 

[Third-person projection of me] Thinks back to your vitriolic defense of MSI on Anandtech:

AnandTech | MSI GT70 Dragon Edition Notebook Review: Haswell and the GTX 780M

Lol.

 

Cloudfire, your points were well made.

Putting brands aside, any fan design can do quite well if they are designed well, doesn't matter if it's 1 fan or 2 fans or 3 fans, and the size of heatsink block needs to be factored in.
1. Fan type (ball bearing, sleeve bearing)
2. Fan size
3. Fan RPM
4. Heatsink block
5. Heatpipe size
6. System chassis size

I don't agree that a single fan can be called a stone age design because a large fan can bring the same amount of airflow as 2 smaller fans, but I am not talking about MSI since they don't really have a larger fan.
Compare size to size, 18.4" vs 17", although it's a minor difference in size but it does make a big difference for laptops.
3 fans can have a different consequence, such as a higher odd of failure because if one fan fails then that particular component (either CPU or GPU) will have trouble, and user will need to RMA it no matter what.
This wouldn't make the 3-fan design any better without that redundancy.
2-fan/3-fan design will be perfect if the heatsink are shared with CPU and GPU, so all fans can share the loading.
But if a manufacturer tries to make a 2-fan/3-fan redundancy design then it means more $$$ to the cost.

In the end, how much did you pay for your Alienware 18? And how much for MSI GT70? How about ASUS G750JW? I believe we get what we pay for and the value should be pretty fair. So there's a trade off, or cost/performance, or cost/value.

 

Are there keys to a plane? Maybe that's what those delays are sometimes, when you're just sitting there at the gate. Maybe the pilot sits up there in the cockpit going, "Oh, I don't believe this. Dammit..I did it again." They tell you it's something mechanical because they don't want to come on the P.A. system, "Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be delayed here on the ground for a while. I uh..Oh, God this is so embarrassing...I, I left the keys to the plane in my apartment. They're in this big ashtray by the front door. I'm sorry, I'll run back and get them."

 

weird , why some of the Sager user report the temperature issue

 

I have the MSI GS70 and it runs toasty for sure, but it does have dual cooling fans.

 

So you admit you were posting troll bait? The single fan can cool just fine, it's a little loud at full pelt but it does the job and at idle it spins right down (and you can make go even quieter with the right tools).

 

When at idle my 780m GT70 is silent. Cant hear it. When gaming even with BF4 on ultra I never have to even engage the turbo fan.

The alienware is bigger and will no doubt have lower temps but then you are using an Alienware. And the downside to an alienware is a laptop that just screams out "hey look everyone! im a 15 year old kid that cares more about how many freaking lights and aliens I can put on my laptop then the actual laptop itself"

Ive owned alienware, sager, Asus and now this MSI barebone and the MSI is BY FAR the best I have ever used. Wouldnt touch an Alienware with a 10 foot pole cause ya know, im an adult and dont try and get chicks by showing off my sweet sweet looking laptop.

 

IMO I think this sums it up nicely.

 

Eh no. I was expecting a rage from MSI owners who haven`t tried anything else and unrightfully claim I`m wrong based on nothing.

Fine, I admit 18" vs 17" is a little bit wrong since there are more room there for the heat. But then again it have 1 extra GPU so it may be a little valid comparison.

Just look at Anandtech`s review of Alienware 18. While gaming, GPU max out at 76C, CPU at 83C. While the fan output max 40dB noise. How is that not a great result that everyone should strive after?
GT70 runs the GPU at around 85C while gaming. And output 46dB.
Don`t you agree that the difference is massive?

That is stock clocks. What happens if the user want to overclock? PSU aside, 180W (come on..), how much temperature headroom do you really have? You are already running at 85C and the fan is already making sure the user knows its there. I overclocked my 770M`s to 1100MHz. They maxed out at 80C. At that temperature, the fan noise was like GT70 stock. No way you are able to even touch clocks like that with the fan design on the GT70. Well you can, if you use the turbo fan mode. But that mode is insane loud.

All OEMs except MSI use 2 fans in their design. I don`t think they would have continued this for so many years, if fan failures was happening. I`m pretty sure thats a component with very little failure rates.

Alienware 18 isn`t really that more expensive than MSI. Take the base model of Alienware 18. 4700MQ, 765M SLI vs GT70 3610QM, 780M. $2100 vs $2000. With the Alienware 18 you get 3 fans, IPS display (far far better than the GT70 display, it is really amazing), 330W PSU and a quiet cooling system. The 2 x 765M SLI is probably really close to the 780M you find on the 780M too. You can always find coupons laying around to bring the cost down further.

So MSI doesn`t really have more value than Alienware. I say the Alienware 18 offer more pro`s than GT70, but then again, someone else might think the size and the audio skew it the other way.

All I`m saying is that why do MSI really have to sacrifice temperatures and noise to save some few bucks on a fan? They have been using the same chassis design now for many years. Why on earth don`t they try to innovate? The fan they use does move a lot of air, but from the data collected so far, and from my own experience, they can do a lot better.

Yeah there you go
You can clearly see that I did prefer MSI earlier, but this machine turned my view the other way. Got attacked by Anandtech fanboys, and both Jarred and that dufus Sklavos joined the discussion. Well it wasn`t exactly a discussion, more like critique from me for being lazy and putting out a false review like that.

 

I agree, one fan takes up less space too - cost & space savings, but 2 fans are generally a better solution if space & cost allows.

 

P170SM with dual fan is actually smaller than GT70.

 

This made me laugh, you do realize that this is merely your opinion, I for one think the Alienware looks more professional and made for adults, when you turn off all the lights it is actually quite sober looking, unlike the MSI GT60/GT70 which is just plain ugly (my opinion), it would be difficult to make a laptop look more like a cheap plastic brick, got to say I do dig MSI though, would love to see them bring a new design to the the table, especially for their high end, same goes for Clevo/Sager, sick of seeing those two rehash/refresh models every year with barely any changes, there is always room for improvement, hope they finally wake up and bring something fresh/new to the table .

 

I agree with you fully Benmaui.
The new ones are really sleek and professional looking.

You tell me which one that have the most flashyness and lights.

 

Exactly look at the darn thing, the MSI looks like a decorated Christmas tree lol, the new Alienware design is pretty sober, I just wish they would have kept the old lighting scheme of the R4 for the trackpad, ugh the new trackpad backlight is useless (imo) like omg where is my trackpad duh, and doesn't give it a premium look, quite the contrary actually .

 

You can just disable the trackpad lights in BIOS. I did not care for it either. It lights up the cookie crumbles etc in a weird way. You get this weird neon show. Hard to explain

But yeah, that was another aspect I liked about the new Alienwares. Really sleek looking design. There should be more decorations (lol) on the GT70 which the picture doesnt show. That picture is missing the 10 stickers they put on the GT70 palmrest.
http://img.hexus.net/v2/laptops/msi/GT70/GT70-1.png

 

How about some CPU temperature figures with your favorite temperature monitoring program (RealTemp is pretty good IMO) and running Linx 0.6.5-11.1.1 Cloudfire. Three short runs at size 10000 should provide some idea of cooling performance.

 

Some points are true, but here's the comparison.
1. According to notebookcheck.net, the 765M SLI is inferior compared to a single 780M because they need more power yet scores lower than 780M.
765M SLI
Use 3DMark 11 part for comparison.
765M SLI consumes 130W combined and 780M consumes 100W.
This makes GT70 a more power efficient unit at 180W instead of 330W.

2. 17" is easier to carry with lighter weight compared to 18.4", not to mention about AC adapter.

3. I agree that MSI should try to improve the thermal, because if MSI makes the fan blades larger, or revise the heatsink size then the temp & noise issues can be resolved. My point being whether if it's a single fan or dual fan or triple fan design, they won't really matter.
Remember ASUS C90S? It had 4 small fans running at high speed and it was very noisy. More doesn't always mean better.

4. Once temperature headroom is increased, I am sure that the heat generated from overclocking is no longer going to be an issue thus allowing better yield, but the 180W will become the limit, so it is another separate issue MSI will need to resolve. However, not every one is an expert with overclocking and some users simply want a working, stable system period.

5. Price-wise, Alienware 18 cost $2100 to begin with, and $2000 for GT70 2OD-407US.
CPU: Same, 4700MQ
RAM: 8GB vs 12GB
OS: Same, Win7 Home Premium x64
HDD: 750GB 7200RPM vs 1TB 7200RPM
GPU: 765M SLI (2GB VRAM x2) vs 780M (4GB VRAM)
Display: 18.4" 1080p vs 17" 1080p
ODD: DVDRW vs BD-ROM (includes DVDRW)
Network: Gigabit vs Gigabit LAN, 802.11ac vs 802.11bgn (upgrade to 7260 ac is $35)
ADC (accidental warranty): $99 extra vs free with 30-day registration with MSI.
Battery: 8-cell Lithium Ion (86 wHr) vs 9-cell Lithium Ion (76wHr).
Weight: 12.06 lbs vs 8.6 lbs
Chassis: Anodized Aluminum Magnesium Alloy vs Anodized Aluminum Plastic

If you try to match the spec of GT70 on the Alienware 18, the result is a higher amount of cost than GT70.
GT70's chassis design weren't always the same, in general they do look alike but there had been little changes here and there.
In the end, each unit has its own pros and cons, and I must say Alienware 18 has its niche in its ways, and it's the same for GT70.

 

The SLI systems also need to score higher to give the same feeling of smoothness due to more inconsistent frame rendering times also.


I'd take the steelseries keyboard (which by the way can be set to a single colour http://gadgetmix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/MSI-GT780DX-gaming-laptop-06.jpg ) due it's superior typing action.

Single fan has its advantages if done right, it can be less noisy at idle, it can be more energy efficient, it has to be paired with a good heatsink and good fan profiles.

 

The only thing wrong with MSI cooling is the less than acceptable idle noise. The heatsinks are great, and at load the fan does a fine job of keeping everything cooled. The less moving parts the better. Three fans is ridiculous

 

Wait so "huaxshin" is Cloudfire? When I first read through those comments, I didn't know whether to laugh at or feel sorry for the ragetroll and his overboard apologetics, but I couldn't shake the feeling of déjà vu. Now it all makes sense!

Hmmm I should send this thread to Dustin, Jarred, Anand, and anybody else Cloudfire baselessly insulted. They'd get a kick out of it.

Well damn, I Googled "huaxshin cloudfire cloudfire777" and there's a veritable goldmine. Cloudfire, you have a right to be proud: Your reputation precedes you! :thumbsup:

Tell me, what other online aliases have you gone by in the past besides those three? That stuff is pretty recent. You say you've been at this business for a while, so I'm sure there's a lot more of this good stuff dating further back. I'll keep digging on my own in the meantime, but I sure could use some of your help.

 

Wait, so I'm still a "dufus" even though you wound up arriving at the exact same conclusions I came to?

 

Hey, I'm the only dufus around here

Still waiting for Cloudfire to post the Linpack test so we can see how well the AW cooling works with the CPU.