*** The Official MSI GT75 Owners and Discussions Lounge ***

dude under normal load it's silent. I don't ever hear the fans

 

Crazy... Isn't the fan speed progressive with load? I can't believe it jumps from 30 to 68 dbA.

 

Not that unusual depending on the load - CPU and GPU can hit hard and fast with benchmarks and games.

@Phoenix hasn't had his new GT75 for long enough to get a good feel for the in between states you are asking about, maybe we should give him some time to work up his findings and publish his typically well written and very detailed review.

 

I don't know what HIDevolution is going to do.
I personally suggested they flash the APTIO capsule themselves with the "Optimal" and "failsafe" values for IA AC DC loadline set to 1, so they would be 1 on any CMOS reset. But that's up to them. But that's what I would do.

It's basically a 5 minute job for every laptop serviced.

1) use combo keys and disable "Bios Lock" setting in System Agent Security Configuration
2) go to windows and dump the bios with FPTW64.exe -d backup.bin -bios
3) edit the bin with AMIBCP 5.0.2 (5.0.1 is UNSTABLE on GT75 Titan and GT83 Titan) and set IA AC and IA DC loadline failsafe and optimal values to 1 instead of 179.
4) save and flash the backup back with FPTW64 -f backup.bin -bios.

 

@UncleMysh @Mr. Fox @Papusan @bloodhawk @skman

Check the benchmarks + temps guys:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...n-094-review-by-phoenix.816385/#post-10721870

 

Wow, and only 4 steps! Awesome, thank you!!

Why does that work? Is a CPU voltage offset also needed or helpful?

What happens if someone trys to undervolt or OC or make other changes in XTU or TS in Windows with those BIOS changes in place and active? Is there anything to be aware of or avoid doing in XTU / TS?

 

Those temps! cool as a cucumber. Hopefully mine will also come out to the same or similar

 

@hmscott @Phoenix
This is what I suggested:

Default in APTIO5 capsule



Change to this and then reflash it with FPTW64. (Remember the DUMP must ALSO be made with FPTW64!!! trying to edit the downloaded MSI bios file from their website will result in a brick and HELLO SPI PROGRAMMER).



This way, users would only need to contact HIDevolution for a reflash of a newer MSI Bios and they can do it remotely or something with the capsule modded again. This would GREATLY reduce HIDevolution's workload as well.

@Donald@HIDevolution @thattechgirl_viv please consider this.

 

If you ordered it from HIDevolution, then they would be. I will also help you tweak the living heck out of it. Stay tuned...

Be smart...be like Phoenix...

 

Undervolts would not be needed anymore, only overvolts.
The undervolt you mentioned "counters" the overvolting done by 1.79 mOhms of resistance from IA AC DC loadline, but JUST this setting isn't what is causing the overvolt! . The problem is, this 1.79 mohms is intentionally done by Intel. HOWEVER MSI IS BREAKING INTEL's own specification by also applying "Loadline Calibration" (vdroop reduction) --which can not be disabled.

*** LOADLINE CALIBRATION ** IS NOT THE SAME THING AS IA AC DC LOADLINE !
But they function in a similar way.

THIS is what is causing the overvolt! Vdroop being removed internally by MSI ("Loadline Calibation" which is hardwired) and THEN IA AC DC doing its "own" way of countering vdroop.

The 1.79 mOhms of resistance is INTEL's own method of removing vdroop (voltage droop). That make all of the adaptive voltage steps up to the maximum turbo multiplier (done by "Default VID") stable.
But MSI is COMBINING this with their own internal Loadline Calibration (a setting often seen on desktop motherboards). This causes VOLTAGE RISE at load !

@Vistar Shook tested this on his eVGA laptop. His eVGA does NOT have loadline calibration internally, so for example, he needed 1.45v static vcore to run cinebench at 4.9 ghz, because his laptop has a lot of vdroop.

My MSIbook "only" needs 1.38v to run cinebench at 4.9 ghz. BUT Vistar shooks TEMPS AND POWER DRAW at 1.45v were LOWER than mine at 1.38v. That's basically proof that MSI is using an internal loadline calibration to remove voltage droop. So Vistar shook's vdroop drops his real voltage from 1.45v to probably 1.35v or lower at full load. While, MSI, (after you set IA AC loadline to 1 and DC loadline to 1) if you set 1.38v static, it remains 1.38v (approximately) at full load. Also, IA AC DC loadline being set to "Auto" on Vistar Shook's eVGAbook gets ignored when using static voltages, so no "Voltage boosting" is done.

(fun fact: if IA AC loadline were set to 179 and you set 1.38v static, MSI would 'boost' the voltage up to 1.5v+. Most likely, the EC would force the laptop to power off instantly at load.)


This is made more complicated for everyone because there is no vcore sensor on these laptops. Only the new Clevos have a vcore sensor. To see how much vdroop you are "supposed" to be getting, you can set IA AC loadline to 1 and DC loadline to Auto (0) or 179 manually. This will cause the CPU VID to "drop" by 100mv at full load, but the actual voltage will not drop at all, because MSI's internal loadline is preventing it from dropping. But the CPU 'thinks' it dropped.

P.S. There's a good reason my MSIbook is stable at 3.4 ghz at 0.900v static voltage (maybe I tested 0.850v) too. Because MSI is doing vdroop compensation to prevent this voltage from dropping lower at load.

Fun fact #2:
Loading the GPU and CPU simultaneously on a MSIbook reduces the effect of MSI's loadline calibration due to extra load on the VRMs.

 

Sooo, the BIOS change stops the added voltage at Load, which is countering a bug in the MSI BIOS settings which add to the problem Intel makes with it's spec - doubling the problem.

What if you undervolted further on your new BIOS patch that fixes the MSI Load bug?

Is the end balanced result of the BIOS fix countering MSI's added voltage at Load equivalent to about -100mV at load?

So you could, theoretically continue with the undervolt, but start at say -10mV adding to the effectively -100mV done by the BIOS fix?

Trying to see if there is a little more tuning to be had even with the added voltage MSI was applying removed.

Hopefully overvolt isn't needed, I found on the GT73 7820HK that even at 4.5ghz all core OC I could do about -15mV additional undervolt, or not, either way it was stable.

Thank you again for all of your hard work, and sharing it with the rest of NBR members. I'm sure they will be careful should they find the need to apply it themselves - and hopefully MSI will listen and make a BIOS update!

If you haven't sent in a note to MSI please do, with your explanation they should listen, it's a bug MSI obviously should fix.

 

Regarding the bottom panel modification for increased airflow: How much are internal/other component temps affected? would a smaller hole be a "best of both worlds" kind of approach? I noticed this mod is fairly easy to do and I have the tools, but since I don't have a 6 core CPU, it's not that hard to cool off my machine.

 

You can undervolt after changing the IA loadline, but you will be very close to complete instability. For example, a mere -10mv after putting removing the extra voltage, makes my laptop unable to boot to windows, but leaving everything on stock without undervoltage, and removing extra loadline voltage, allows me to boot and use the machine without issues for days.

Our days of testing massive amounts of undervolts are basically gone, removing the "padded" voltage by default. But you can certainly still play with it.

 

MSI doesn't give a damn what i say or do. I've tried to contact them many times.
If they did, they would have allowed me to use the unlocked EC, after all of my work and testing and all of this BS i had to do.

 

You've tested this on a GT75 with this unique bug?

I thought this was a new bug, not seen on other MSI laptops? Or is this a fix for other MSI laptops, which ones?

Also, if this is an MSI BIOS bug, not fixable in the same way on other brand laptops BIOS, undervolting is still the fix available for everyone else.

Please clear this up for us if you can.

 

Then it's up to others to also report the same problem and fix, so that someone in MSI Support passes this up the chain so that it can get fixed. @Donald@HIDevolution

Does this occur on other MSI laptops? It sounds like you think this is unique to MSI, possibly only the GT75, or can this bugfix be applied to other MSI laptops?

 

MSI Support HQ is in touch with me after I told them about the mess of settings they have in the stock BIOS and are gathering info. I also sent them my temps after the magical Falkentyne tweaks and how this laptop could really perform out of the box.

Let's hope they fix that so all others can benefit from this and have a working taptop out of the box.

 

If it's Taiwan HQ in contact with you, please tell them I demand the GT73VR unlocked EC for all the vomiting I've done over the last year. (seriously why can't MSI show a little freaking gratitude?)

Otherwise that 9700K 8 core Clevo and a GTX 1180 and a DUCKY SHINE KEYBOARD is looking awfully tempting right now.......

 

Maybe it was how it was presented and the context. It is a legitimate question no matter who asks.

I think since MSI is such a chintzy outfit and doesn't provide acceptable BIOS features, everyone should be given the unlock code and if they break it, they bought it. Not covered under warranty. Most people won't change settings they are not familiar with, and those that do need to be prepared to pay for their adventures (or acts of stupidity). It's unfortunate we all have to suffer because of a few random idiots, but that's life.

Making the developer menu unlock key combo a secret to protect the stupid against making mistakes isn't something I advocate, for the same reasons I think it is wrong for the manufacturers to hide all of the useful menu items. So, in that respect, if somebody bricks their laptop changing something on a menu using the unlock code, 100% of the blame rests on the manufacturer for forcing them to resort to that.

That being said, as soon as MSI finds out the key combo is leaked and being used by many, you can expect it to either change in the next BIOS update, or go away on future models, (or both,) because they're Nazi control freaks about stuff like that, as are their competitors.

 

More than a bug, I would say it is an oversight with an over-conservative setting. This is not particularly a bug (as this would entail not being functional) but it IS the cause of higher than desired temperatures. My take on this is that, when dealing with BGA, they all prefer a "one setting to rule them all" completely sending temps to the gutter. There will always be a badly binned CPU that requires high voltage to work, and they simply send all CPUs to hell because of it.

This is not MSI exclusive, I have seen this behavior with all brands to varying degrees, and it gets worse on non modifiable machines. My Lenovo P51 runs up top 1.24v on the 7700HQ, at 3.4ghz. My GT73 works at 4.1ghz at 1.18v.... so yeah, naturally, I undervolted my Lenovo severely and still works with nearly -100mv, because I can't change any other setting.

Anyways, the issue is how Falkentyne says, how voltage is doubly compensated, but I suspect MSI is not the only one that has this setting.

Also, my comment was regarding my own GT73 6820HK (regarding voltages).

 

Got it, so the same fix or similar fix for voltage compensation on other MSI and brand laptops can be done for the same effect, giving everyone CPU load temps that are low out of the box instead of requiring undervolting, re-pasting, etc. That would be great!

What about marginal spec CPU's? Is there a chance some CPU's with a sensitivity to undervolting could become unstable with this fix?

There are CPU's I've run across that will only tolerate -15mV to -25mV undervolt out of the box, would they become unstable without this compensation MSI added? @Falkentyne

 

+1 to everyone being given the unlock code to stop their taptops from (GEFORCE FERMI EGG COOKING PICTURE HERE)
But that's @ryzeki 's call.
He's the one who makes the say here. None of us have any right to say who or who doesn't get the unlock code.

 

Unknown tbh. If the CPU is stable at Intel's default VID, then it SHOULD be stable up to the HIGHEST TURBO MULTIPLIER.
However if the CPU is fully stable at full load, there is ZERO CHANCE of an idle crash (see below).

Only Skylake boards would be unstable, probably due to lower loadline calibration being set and massive vdroop.
Sirgeorge had extreme instability on his 6820HK with IA AC loadline 1, 2 or 3, but a value of 10 (0.1 mOhms) was ROCK SOLID.
I've seen bugs with several 6820HK versions of the GT73VR. The Chinese baidu site said that these used MS 17A1 version 1.0 boards, while the Kaby Lake used version 1.1 boards.

Among one of the fixes is that "white screen crash" done when copying GB's of files over a network, like @Arestavo had to deal with on the 1070 SLI configuration (white screen crash on 6820HK, no crash on7820HK).

Remember guys, IA AC DC loadline DOES NOT CHANGE THE IDLE VOLTAGE !!!
It is based on RESISTANCE. the more resistance=the more current=the more voltage compensation. You know how desktop boards work, Hmscott.
the higher the voltage, the higher the amps, the higher the vdroop (when Loadline Calibration (LLC) is disabled or set to automatic (assuming the desktop board follows Intel's guidelines).

So if the CPU is fully stable at load, it won't crash at idle either.

 

People that want more functional laptops than the rest of the world are limited to two options:
- @Prema Partner Shops with Clevo PremaMod BIOS
- MSI BGA turdbooks with an "unauthorized" Svet BIOS (hopefully from HIDevolution)

People that buy something else have to be willing to accept that it is going to be crippled. People that buy laptops also have to accept that a new future model may be introduced that has a new strain of cancer firmware and/or hardware locks that will never be unlocked by someone like Prema or Svet. (NVIDIA's Falcon feces is an example.) So, being an early adopter is extremely dangerous. You made end up stuck with a regrettable piece of garbage.

 

It's hard to confirm because we don't know what setting other brands they are using. But in theory, yeah, some CPUs will definitelly need more voltage to properly work, and it is the most likely reason why manufacturers ship with such high voltage numbers.

Again, in comparison, my 6820HK cannot boot with a loadline of 1, I need to use at least 10. Well, it does boot, but it has random stability issues and has resulted in at least 1 crash. These sort of settings are very machine specific. I suspect that the tweaked 7820HK works with 1 because it is a refined version of the 6th gen, and universally requires less voltage to work at any given state.

I think we will continue to need user specific settings, because manufacturers can't possibly deal with a single setting that might be the cause of even 1% of machines. This is more of a corporate decision, rather than engineering. Everyone wants to avoid headaches.

And we all know that the majority of users don't even tweak their CPUs. Even people that buy unlocked CPUs, I know plenty that keep all at stock.

 

Thanks for that explanation, but again these CPU's were unstable at load with undervolts of -15mV to -25mV, while most CPU's are fine at -100mV or higher.

It's just something to be aware of should applying this fix make a laptop unstable, it might be a voltage sensitive CPU.

That's why the undervolt method has worked well over time, it has a variable tuning method, not just applied or not applied, that lets the user tune the compensation for their unique CPU.

It might be good to find such a low undervolting CPU sample to try this BIOS patch on and see how it responds.

That's how I see it right now too, but maybe someone with a marginal CPU undervolt, in the low end range of -15mV to -25mV at Load can try the BIOS patch and see if they are stable.

Then if not, some additional tuning could be done to the BIOS fix? From what you say there is a range of things to try with these settings as well.

Maybe @Falkentyne can add a step or note to try a specific range of settings to adjust for a voltage sensitive CPU.

 

This is true, and it is why I say (and know to be fact) that all laptops are broken garbage as shipped from the factory. I don't expect factory tuning to be ideal. It cannot be ideal, because every machine is different. They do not have the time or the talent available. What they can do is stop being anal about settings and unlock everything that cannot brick the machine so end users can resolve their own issues and tune things to their heart's content. Until they start doing that, everything they sell is going to be garbage without an "unauthorized" firmware mod. Smart people will have no part in being part of the problem. We should all be boycotting laptops until they pull their heads out of their hind ends and start doing the right thing.

 

The big question though:
Why were they unstable?
Was the silicon "weak"?
Or was MSI using very low (or nonexistant) Loadline Calibration on the Skylake boards?

That's the problem, my friend.
If there were a VCORE sensor, we would know the answer, and we would have known the answer a year ago.
But VID isn't vcore.
VID is what the CPU 'requests' or thinks it's getting. In moat cases, VID should be 'close' to vcore. But VID doesn't respond at all to "Loadline Calibration".
that's why if you set IA AC Loadline to 1 and DC loadline to 0, the VID shows massive vdroop, but power draw and temps don't drop, but the CPU is 'expecting' vdroop.

And there are no datasheets for the MSI boards. We don't even know where on the board to put a digital multimeter or Oscilloscope to read the true core voltage.

 

So @ryzeki what say thee?
You're the boss here. If you want to post the unlock code (and possibly incur both the red goblin and green goblin's wrath), you're the one who has the power to do it.
Red goblin.....what is a red goblin.....

 

Yes, it's unknown where the variability comes in, but there is variability in the stable undervolt range of -15mV to -220mV for recent CPU examples, and I am wondering how the BIOS patch treats that range.

Time will tell.

 

So you're saying that MSI did this deliberately, to make the "Special" chip samples able to work at all voltages, and burn baby burn, to the "Golden" BGA chips (e.g. the ones that would be equal to the worst binned desktop K series chips?)

I guess I see that line of thinking, but it's clearly backfiring with Intel's terminal velocity boost, if it's putting 1.44v into some of these 6 core chips...at 4300 mhz...

You are making very good and valid points. Can't argue with them.

 

Good or bad outcome, I think pretty much everything all of them do is deliberate. They just don't give a rat's ass about the outcome. Everyone needs to see this for what it is... eyes wide open. All they care about is money and if the world is primarily composed of noobs that don't know any better, that is their target market. People that know better need to give up on the losers selling trashbooks and go with the tiny pool of boutique vendors that cater to the elitist niche that some of us are extremely proud to be a part of.

 

IDK if I would condemn MSI like that, or even all the makers, it's just a reality of dealing with the variance of CPU's coming off the line from Intel into those tray's of OEM CPU's.

Generally you "tune" for the worst cases, best and worst within a specification.

Otherwise you end up tossing out a lot of parts - rejecting them back to the maker.

Typically makers like Intel have elaborate return policies that reward those that don't return / reject a large percentage of parts - OEM's that make do with that they are given - make them work - are rewarded.

You can end up with "barrels" of rejected components, and if you can find another use for them so you can keep them, your vendor / OEM relationship also remains "stable".

So it's been assumed for quite a while that the BIOS runs the CPU voltage hot so they don't reject "voltage sensitive CPU's", and for the most part at stock speeds and settings this works out fine, with a low percentage of exceptions (returns from owners).

Given the variability of CPU / chipset / motherboard design voltage sensitivity I found helping people make BIOS tuning changes problematic, and found that giving them a less dangerous method by adjusting the user settable CPU voltage offset (and CPU Cache voltage offset) works just as well with less fallout due to bricked BIOS's.

Anyway, maybe with the current 8th gen CPU's a single fix in the BIOS will cover all CPU's shipping, and that would be an awesome change.

 

I still believe user tweaking is necessary to get the most out of these systems, and it would be great to have a Svet BIOS that only show the basic/required settings for proper tweaking while keeping most dangerous stuff blocked.

@Falkentyne stop baiting me about the unlock code

 

But, that is a seriously flawed business approach. There is no legitimate excuse for hiding menus for settings that are not going to brick a machine. Exposing them and allowing end users to tune things for flawless operation based on the unique quality of their hardware is the only acceptable option. Not doing that is reprehensible and worthy of severe condemnation. But, this nonsense is going to remain status quo until enough people start hurting them financially for taking the Nazi approach to things.

Nobody should sell laptops with so-called unlocked CPUs if they are going to hide menus and put in secret throttle cancer code that blocks the unlocked CPU from running wild and free. Doing so is a dishonest business practice and false advertisement, and it should be illegal.

 

I agree that the bios settings should have considerable more options available, on stock, for all manufacturers. It is very annoying that in my lenovo I can only change SATA stuff, or enable virtualization. This is very annoying. And of course I am oversimplifying but the issue remains.

MSI can certainly make a BIOS that shows already a wealth of settings that are useful. They can "hide it" with a simple menu option of "advanced" with a simple warning. Most users don't mess with this anyways, and the users that require it can certainly use it at their own will.

 

Yes I agree too. But for options that can render a system non-bootable should not be provided as that can bring risks/additional costs to MSI.
1. Customers returning systems back to resellers
2. Customers returning systems back to repair center for warranty services
3. Users unsatisfied of overclocking results sue MSI
Anything can happen.... but MSI has always been generous for overclockers with unlocked BIOS on their motherboard products, so long you sign that NDA.

Maybe they can release a true overclocker edition based on their OC motherboards one day.... with ease of clearing CMOS and EC.

 

Yeah I know. I have been on both sides of the spectrum for products, and the ideal is to provide a working solution that won't have products returning all the time. I understand their side. Sadly we don't know how some customers handle their systems and we know how... vocal... some can be, even when they destroy their own machines. And blame everyone else in the process.

Hmmm a true overclocker edition laptop. They could use this to compete, and I am sure the good overclockers here would never use a regular machine instead haha.

 

It would be quite a different world if people simply accepted responsibility. Have full power and control. If you break it, that's on you. Sadly, the average user probably blames manufacturers for how bad their spelling is when using the keyboard.

 

Yes sir... 100%. That would be awesome, and competitors would be compelled to follow suit or get left in the dust. There is no legitimate reason people should be paying more and getting less than what they would expect buying an enthusiast desktop motherboard. The fact that this is exactly what happens is why I no longer play the "high performance" laptop game. It's a scam and a sham.

Absolutely! With the right BIOS options and configuration capabilities, excellent cooling, etc. I know a lot of discriminating enthusiasts and overclocking nuts would go for it. I would be one of them. But, it sure as hell would not have a BGA CPU (or GPU). The BGA element would make the moniker " overclocker edition" a laughable oxymoron.

 

The one thing though that you're missing is a bug in the GT73VR (that MSI has claimed to have fixed multiple times), can ONLY be permanently fixed by unlocking Bios menus--the infamous black screen bug (This HAS caused SEVERAL RMA's on this forum and MSI's forum) from switching from dGPU->iGPU->dGPU under certain conditions.

 

Post the unlocked code and all you will get is Alienware's prefered solutions!! Have you people forgot what Dell did when they discovered you could mod and use 2x330w psu on the Alienware M18x series laptops? People here who remebered how DELL'S engineers Crippled the last AW18 in history? The results... Unlocked 4930/40Mx + 780/880 and 980m all SLI with max 330W psu.

 

HID Evolution will cut the bottom cover for you if you tell them?

 

yeeah it's an option for the models with 8th gen processors and 1080 cards.

 

I wanna buy the gt 75 8rg is it a good laptop

 

there are a few reviews out there already like this one by Kitguru
https://www.kitguru.net/desktop-pc/...-gaming-laptop-review-core-i9-gtx-1080-beast/


you can also check out the thread by @Phoenix
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/msi-gt75-titan-8rg-094-review-by-phoenix.816385/

 

Here is a current Review and discussion... http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/msi-gt75-titan-8rg-094-review-by-phoenix.816385/

 

Thanks Alot guys and @Phoenix an amazing review just wanted to know if the laptop temps are ok or really bad in a laptop sent from the factory directly without any settings changed

 

@Donald@HIDevolution do u think HID evolution ships to india?

 

Yes, we ship to India. Just configure the model you want and click Add to Cart. Then enter your Ship To address as you Checkout and it will show you the available shipping options and their cost before placing your order. You can then decide whether you want to place your order.