Windows free notebooks

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has any recent information on manufacturers that will ship systems without windows preinstalled.

Dell used to sell systems with freedos but i dont see any now.

I'm planning to buy a new notebook once ivybridge notebooks are shipping.

 

Lenovo was selling some DOS ThinkPads. There was a link in the Lenovo forum, but it's been a while. As I recall the DOS ThinkPad tended to cost more than the Windows notebooks.

 

Yep, Lenovo has sold DOS Thinkpads from time to time, but usually at a price disadvantage because the regular coupons didn't apply to them. Occasionally, there was a good sale on them, though (ie: X120e DOS "price glitch" that Lenovo honored).

System76 also sells Ubuntu-loaded laptops (based on Clevo designs, I think).

 

Most laptop makers have the option for a non-Windows laptop (though only for a few limited models). Even then, they'll usually be just as expensive as Windows-based machines, if not more as Zaz pointed out.

Your best options seem to be:
1) System76, et. al., or
2) Buy a Win7 system, decline the EULA, and demand for a refund on Windows (roughly $50-$70, depending on model).

 

Dell Small Business still sells a handful of Vostro notebooks with Ubuntu pre-loaded:

The Vostro 1440 is a very low end plastic notebook for 3rd world markets:

The Dell Online Store: Build Your System

The Vostro V131 has a very, very dim screen:

The Dell Online Store: Build Your System

I'd also suggest checking out the Ubuntu forums and this list of Certified Ubuntu Systems:

Certified hardware | Ubuntu

Then you have a choice of various third party "whitebooks" sold by various small vendors:

AvaDirect
System76
Zareason
CTL Corp (?)

Keep in mind that brand new hardware is more likely to have issues with Linux than hardware that's two or three generations old. Sometimes the Linux kernel has to have some time to keep up with the hardware cycle. There were Linux issue with Sandy Bridge and issues with Nehalem before that. Is it possible that Intel will have ironed all the wrinkles out of Ivy Bridge Linux support on day one? It's possible. It didn't happen in the last two generations, but it is possible, not certain, and based on past history, no even entirely probable.

If you want a Windows-free Ivy Bridge notebook that won't have driver issues or non-functional components, you'll just have to wait for a next generation Macbook Pro or Air.

 

Is this really possible? Usually laptops come with already installed apps et.

I think your choice is to buy Clevo, Xotic, PowerNotebook etc.

 

Options:

1. Hunt around for Linux/FreeDOS laptops--The problem is that these are becoming increasingly difficult to find. For example, Lenovo had some offerings a few months ago but now everything's win7.

2. Buy a Win7 laptop and then go through all the rigmarole to obtain your discount.--Good luck with that. I hope you have a Harvard-educated lawyer on retainer.

3. Buy from ZaReason, System 76 or some similar outfit.--In general you get decent stuff but your options are limited and prices might not be that great for what you get.

4. Buy a custom notebook--I've done this a few times. It can be great if you're looking for a higher-powered notebook over $1000 with the latest gear built just to your liking. It's not so hot if you're looking to get something under $800. (Sidenote: Powernotebooks.com has treated me very well in the past in spite of their right-wing, pro-God & country marketing scheme which, quite frankly, is a bit over the top).

5. Build your own Whitebook--Can turn out to be the best bang for the buck by far. On the other hand whitebooks have been tougher to come buy lately and they weren't exactly ubiquitous years ago. Nowadays you have scour ebay, google and sometimes buy directly from outfits in Taiwan. I've done it successfully in the recent past but it's a bit risky.

6. Buy a Win7 laptop on sale, pretend you got the MS refund, wipe windows, install Linux and get on with your life--This is probably the best option.

 

Wikipedia article on it

ZDNet article on it

 

This is what I've always done. It really doesn't hurt to have it as a dual-boot option, or at least keep the disc around. And, as has been pointed out, you'll probably pay as much anyways without Windows pre-loaded.

*sound of $0.02 dropping*

 

According to my experience it is not possible anymore because the vendors have found a new trick of justifying bundles. They now say that an operating system is an integral part of a working computer (note: NOT a separate product that is bundled with the hardware) and can therefore not be removed from it because it would "destroy" the working product. The bundling prohibition doesn't work here anymore because according to this point of view there is no bundle to start with.

Please stop spreading that narrow-minded point of view! Using Linux is not a question of the price tag. It is a question of personal preference and technical properties.
So having to buy a computer with a preloaded OS that you won't use does hurt your freedom of choice. Even if a computer with Windows is cheaper than the same computer without it, it still forces you to support a company that you don't want to have any business with. So buying a computer without it is the only reasonable option. Buying a computer with Windows and declining the EULA can be a stopgap until you can actually buy a computer without Windows at best, because pretending that you didn't know the terms of use before buying the product is a lie and everybody knows it. You know it, the vendor knows it and MS knows it.

 

It has always got my back right up how people are forced to buy computers and laptops with M$ software and have no choice about this decision.

Why should we? Surely there is court cases proceeding to stop this monopoly?

 

Pay a couple $100,000 for a good layer and take them on, months to years later maybe you win maybe not. it would be nice not to have to buy M$ stuff but unless you want to spend a load of money, all you can do is make a formal complaint, sad i know

 

I've never heard an OEM say anything along these lines when ordering a computer. If you have links to reading material, I'd love to read it to try to work out that "reasoning".

Somewhat related, but some OEMs (Dell, Lenovo, probably others) do offer non-Windows machines (typically run FreeDOS or similar). Wouldn't the existence of these offers counter the claim that "no OS would destroy the product"? Clevo machines are usually sold without an OS, period (unless you bundle with Win7, of course).

You're not forced to use a Windows OS. When powering on a computer the first time, you are brought to a display where you're *suppose* to read the Microsoft EULA, and make a choice of if you accept or decline it. If you decline, you're allowed to call the OEM and return your bundled copy of Windows for some sort of refund.

As for "Microsoft is a monopoly", ever since the Microsoft Antitrust case they have been a natural monopoly. Huge difference. I especially find this article on operating systems as natural monopolies to be an interesting read explaining how Microsoft became a natural monopoly. It also doesn't help (for die-hard Linux fans) that the network effect works well in Microsoft's favor; ie: it's easier to standardize around a single family of products (such as Microsoft's Windows/Office environment or Apple's hardware/iOS/walled-garden environment) than to work with odd bits of software here and there (though LAMP could be an exception).

Being OS-agnostic, I don't really care either way. However, why is it that people insist on name-calling people (M$, Crapple, etc.)? Name-calling isn't a valid form of debate, so can we just call everyone by their given names and be mature about it?

 

Here's a whole bunch of those cases:
https://wiki.fsfe.org/WindowsTaxRefund/Germany

Sorry that it's in German, please use your favourite translator and notice that starting from 2009 not a single case was successful due to the reason I mentioned!
I know one of the people on that list from the German debianforum and I have no reason to believe that he made up the case there.

Some months ago I was also in contact with a small German hardware vendor who specialized on selling Windows-free computers (desktop, laptop, netbook) and I asked him for details about his business because I didn't want to buy a system without Windows from him just to have him rip off the Windows sticker and sell it on ebay. He told me that he has special contracs with some notebook manufacturers that allow him to obtain notebooks without Windows but that he can't reveal any details because he had to sign NDAs for those contracts. But he confirmed my impression that the manufacturers have found ways to evade the non-bundling law which exists in the EU too.
A famaily member of mine happens to know the shop owner personally and I have no reason to believe that he lies.

If you have a look at the products that are sold without Windows you'll see that it's only a small portion of the sortiment and that it's never the top models.
I can give you a link to a seven-pages thread in the German debianforum where I wrote down my experiences about buying my M6500 without Windows. It was advertised to be sold with RHEL but it was never available this way. In fact it was even a mayor struggle to get it without Windows at all. I had to go through multiple instances at Dell and I even contacted Red Hat Germany.

These machines aren't sold as "ready to use" and that seems to be the point of the integrated hardware-OS product.

That's the theory. But as the cases at the FSFE site I linked show that doesn't work practically because the vendor only gives you the chance to return the whole "integrated system" or nothing at all. And so far nobody took that to a court.

You got it backwards. There are often clear standards of how to do things (everything XML-related, BIOS specs etc.) set by approved standardization organizations like the ISO. But instead of sticking to these (usually reasonable) standards Microsoft comes up with something different and makes their solution the de-facto standard by abusing their market power.
It's Microsoft who creates the "odd bits of software" not the others. The sad thing is that most people don't even realize that anymore because they know nothing else than Microsoft.

I wish I could say the same. But the fact that I'd like to be OS-agnostic (read: not bound to a specific OS but free to chose wether to use Linux, BSD, Solaris, Mac OS or even Windows) and the fact that Microsoft abuses its market power makes me care for Free standards.

Agreed!

 

You could configure a M6500/M4500 with RedHat on the Dell Enterprise website, but I always had the suspicion that it was vaporware. Dell Small Business disavowed all knowledge of Precision notebooks with Red Hat.

With every generation of Latitude E-series notebook, Dell has indicated in the initial product information that preloaded Ubuntu would be available, and presto, it never has been. Dell has even produced proprietary Ubuntu disk images with product specific drivers, and then never released said images - to anyone. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it? It's been confirmed.

 

Wow... I had no idea that sort of activity was happening in the EU. I'm hoping the it's not happening in the US, though admittedly I haven't shopped for a laptop since last year. I'm not familiar with EU (or individual state) law and how it handles software EULAs, but I'd imagine that the consumer protection laws should enforce the right to a refund(?).

I'm perfectly aware about these "special contracts" that Microsoft makes OEMs agree to for special pricing, and I think they're wrong. I'd love to see them abolished and let them sell whatever they please. Well, whatever the market demands, anyway; it's better than the restrictive terms in those NDAs. I mean, it's what? $20 savings? For a computer, that's a drop in the bucket and it should be easy to cover those costs with extra bloatware (which is easily removed by a competent user).

Again, I'm not familiar with the German computer market, though I know for sure that System76 (for example) sells some very nice, high-end machines (Gazelle Professional to the Bonobo Professional).

As for the M6500, wouldn't that be false advertising, and wouldn't that be something a consumer could sue about? "Dell advertises RHEL on Laptop X, but refuses to sell it to the general public"?

From the English Wikipedia's article on "Windows Refund", I see a few court cases in both the US and Europe where a consumer won out against OEMs.

"In a civil suit an Italian court rejected HP's argument that the licensing conditions had been set unilaterally by Microsoft and ordered HP to reimburse a customer the amount of €90 for an unused copy of Windows XP bundled with a Compaq notebook.[36] The court was of the opinion that HP had to know about the conditions, because they most likely constituted part of the agreement between them and Microsoft. It also found the fact that computers without an operating system are available on the market to be irrelevant." (italics mine)

"In August 2011, an American HP customer was refunded $20 for the copy Windows 7 Home Premium bundled with the laptop, after only three days of negotiations"

"According to Süddeutsche Zeitung, a German Dell customer replaced the preinstalled Windows with Linux and was credited the amount of €78 for the operating system and a further unspecified Microsoft program.[36] According to ynetnews, an Israeli Dell customer received a refund of $137 for an unused Windows Vista, after filing a small court claim. As it was reported[37] a Russian customer received a refund of $73.90 from BenQ for an unused preinstalled copy of Microsoft Windows Vista. It took him approximately 4 months."

True, suing in court is not a guarantee that a refund will be rewarded, but there is precedent out there that a consumer could use to support their case.

You are correct in that the ISO (etc.) have already established uniform standards that obviously work. However, managers are (seemingly) attracted to brand-names more-so than said standards, even if they do not know the differences between standards and non-standards (such as LAMP v IIS). Probably the same reasoning why a lot of companies buy expensive Cisco networking equipment, even though TrendNET, D-Link, etc. can do the job just as well, but are lesser-known.

I don't think this is an issue of free standards v proprietary standards (oxy moron much? ), but actually an issue of weather these NDA agreements between Microsoft and the OEMs, as well as making it difficult to refund Windows and/or sell systems with alternate OS installs. IANAL, but I'm not sure if they are at odds with the law in that regard. However, if enough voices cry against it Microsoft could run into Antitrust Case v2.

 

Nobody told Apple or Sager that there was a monopoly. While Apple may not be that relevant to the folks here (who want Linux, not OSX), the Sager options absolutely are.

Every single Sager that XoticPC sells (Nebraska-based reseller of Sager, MSI, and Asus laptops, with a good reputation on these forums) can be configured with no OS for less than the price of a Win 7-equipped model. Models start at $687 and go up from there depending on the exact model and how it's equipped.

http://www.xoticpc.com/custom-gaming-laptops-notebooks-clevo-sager-notebooks-ct-95_51_162.html

(Note: just because it says "gaming" doesn't mean that's what you have to use it for).

 

The thing that really bugs me about windows is that I need it for firmware updates for some hardware, like optical drives for example. Also modded/de-whitelisted BIOS updates for my thinkpad are windows-only executables, there is no way to use the BIOS images alone (with the DOS flasher) without the patched windows EXEs. So I keep a BartPE USB image around.

Also Lenovo doesn't usually apply discount codes to DOS SKUs, which is annoying because they become more expensive (than bundled windows) whenever there is a decent sale.

 

In EU every notebook or desktop is forbidden to be sold without OS.
It's so stupid.
99% of the sellers sell them with windows. mainly because they came with windows pre loaded from factory.
some few ones that sell "unbranded" notebooks like for example clevos, have an option to buy them with linux at extra 0€. but then they have to make sure all drivers work, and most time they don't. so they can't offer that.

 

Yes, they should, but: no plaintiff, no judge

You don't understand capitalism.
Even if it's only $20 savings, it's still $20 savings. If a vendor can get the same $20 with extra bloatware then he won't go for the bloatware instead of Windows, but for the bloatware and Windows.

The same does this small dealer I was referring to. But the general problem remains: My freedom of choice is still limited because I have to rely on the assortment of those very few dealers.

That was exactly my thought too. But TBH I had no intention to start a lawsuit against a global company to buy a laptop.

But none of them took place in Germany after 2008. And frankly that's the only market I'm interested in due to shipping, guarantee regulations, keyboard layouts etc.

Why not? I don't see an oxymoron here. One standard is reached via negotiations and set by a standardization organization, the other one is imposed on the market through sheer power. Still, both are standards in that they define how things work, even if these definitions aren't publicly accessible in the latter case.

How many voices would that require? According to several (unreliable) statistics the potentially interested people are about 1% of the total population. And even if we assume that 10% of these 1% (which I think is pretty optimistic) would actually take actions I think it's by far not enough to change something.
Plus, we often see that crying isn't enough to change things. Even if you're the majority the chances of succeeding are almost zero unless you have the means to turn your numeric superiority into a political superiority which is not automatically the case.

That's not true. Just a month ago I bought a desktop computer without any OS.

 

No, not every one of them.

Just the ones that could be considered as everyday electric appliances you buy ready in a box from store shelf. Like a microwave oven, LCD TV, laptop, iPhone, Playstation, desktop computer, fridge... All of those are supposed to be pretty much usable after power plug is connected and power button pressed.

Customized computers are different thing, customer can choose not to have OS in the package or installed. While custom desktops are common, I haven't seen such laptop live in years.

 

Get a system76 if you want a Clevo gaming rig (ie: Sager) that doesn't come with a windows option. The only quirk here though is that many resellers of Sagers will allow you to buy with no OS and then install Ubuntu / FreeBSD / PCBSD after-the-fact. However, to be able to buy a Linux-d gaming rig for things such as folding@home (and having a small folding farm) is definitely not a bad thing.

Jason

 

whatever I decide to type is my prerogative, M$ Microsoft, it doesn't make no difference.

 

Take it easy, there. While for many people, as you said, using Linux is not a question of the price tag, for some people it is just that. So let's not be narrow-minded.

And I agree being forced to buy a computer with preloaded OS hurts your freedom of choice, but I wasn't trying to force anyone down that route. I was just giving one option that I've used, since I don't mind buying MS (when it doesn't cost much extra). When you assume that no one would choose this option, you are the one being narrow-minded.

It should be noted that I love Linux, and think Windows pretty much sucks. But that doesn't mean dual-boot isn't an option for those so inclined. And that's all I was saying.

Oh, and I was never pretending ignorance of the TOS. Please don't put words in my mouth (or characters in my post).

 

So was it confirmed that I can decline the EULA and ask for a compensation or refund of the OS?

I have so many copies of Windows.. I really would like to save some on the OS, if this is possible it could help out a lot.

 

I did it once for fun with an HP laptop back in the early Vista era. IIRC HP cut me a cheque nearly the full price of Vista Home Premium... Maybe $175?

On the plus side, it was definitely a huge subsidy on the laptop. On the minus side, I spent about 2 and a half months going through various escalations and being transferred between different departments chasing that refund.

Nobody knew how to handle a Windows EULA refund - a number of people, including a member of their legal department, told me to talk to Microsoft. I have a feeling that the HP executive who finally cut me a cheque saw it as a bribe to get me to go away, with the Windows refund being just a pretense.

Whether you do it for the money or on principle, it's a pyrrhic victory at best. You'll be making less than minimum wage in any developed country while at the same time dealing with people who couldn't care less about your reasons.

 

Lenovo ordered to pay ?1920 for making French laptop buyer pay for Windows too - trade, software, Regulation, operating systems, Lenovo, legislation, laptops, hardware systems, government, distribution, desktop pcs - Notebooks - Hardware - Techworl

 

Having done a ton of research on this subject, I'm +1 in favor of Clevo and any company that sells and rebrands them. Reviews show them all running very cool with excellent design, tons of custom options, you don't have to buy Windows - or even hard drives or RAM in a lot of cases. Also, the CPU / GPUs in those models are almost always end-user upgradeable / replaceable; you don't see that in most major manufacturer bundles.

I'm actually about to place an order for a Malibal Satori P170HM - killer price on a rebranded Clevo right there, and going to run Archlinux / Compiz on it. Maybe Windows in a VM, have to do something with all those licenses.

 

It does actually.

I know that when I read a post and I see things like that, I automatically discount the poster's arguments out of hand seeing as they are either not mature enough to posit a meaningful argument or are on a petty crusade against something. Sometimes it's both. Moreover, it denotes that one is likely not a rational individual.

See?

You don't want posters to think that of you do you? Especially when it's not true.

 

I have been writing M$ ever since the antitrust lawsuit, to the point where I have to remind myself to write out "Microsoft" whenever I'm around a more general audience.

 

One of the most annoying things when going to different OS forums is the fanboyism with the silly "anti-pet names" they give competing OSs. And all the emotion behind what is nothing more than lines of code made into a tool.

It's fine to be enthusiastic about something. Good things can come about from enthusiasm. But it's just a thing. People seem to identify with it as if it actually represents them. As if pointing out the tool's weaknesses is pointing out their failings as a human being.

Every OS has its strengths and weaknesses. One should be able to use the right tool for the particular job without thinking of it as anything but a tool.

MacOS Windows, Linux, WebOS, iOS, Android and the multitude of others. They're all interface tools. Nothing more. Nothing less. Personally, I like them all and use most of them. Some on a daily basis. All depends on what I'm doing and which does it best or most conveniently.

Walk good.

Yes, but you're special. *Swoon*

I often find myself writing is MSFT (their ticker symbol) as that is what I've been used to for so many years in the finance business.

 

LOL. Right you are.

 

Well, that is discounting dividends, stock splits, and selling the stock when it went for much more.

 

^^^ Good point I must convince my mom to sell her's
What would 100 shares of Microsoft stock bought in 1985 be worth today
When I read the thread title I though a free notebook was available

 

While this is a great set of lists for compatibility, I think OP was looking for notebooks that don't ship with an OS installed, typically Windows.

 

Penny Arcade is wise beyond time and space.

Penny Arcade - M$

 

Not at all? There were splits, dividends, and the stock price has been up and down. Even if you threw $1 at them at that time and never looked back, you would have around $5 today.

 

I would not say it is confirmed. There may have been cases where manufacturers have been ordered to pay the refund by courts, or have done so willingly (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund), but the windows 7 Licence agreement actually states that the licence agreement is between the end user and the OEM, rather than with Microsoft (as from my recent Sony Vaio SE purchase). I don't know how this has changed from previous licencing agreements, if at all, but it would seem to be that this would be for the purposes of making it hard to obtain Windows refunds. A court may still rule in the end users favour though, if one wanted to go through that process.

I personally didn't bother trying, and just installed linux on an SSD. I did get the laptop with discount and free upgrade though, so maybe I care less than the typical end user

 

I don't think the typical end user cares at all. Typical end users just hit "Accept" without reading the EULA and start using the copy of Windows that came preinstalled on the laptop right away.

Anybody who cares about Linux or FOSS principles is far from typical in the first place.