Where Ubuntu falls short

This post is the result of a thread that got off topic and branched into a rant about Ubuntu admirers wanting to give Ubuntu too much credit. As promised, the discussion is being moved to its own thread (sorry it took me so long but I had to deal with a Windows machine that kept going into a blue screen for one of our users).

Please note that I have nothing against Ubuntu and I do think it is a great distro. I stated so in the section that dealt with it on my writeup about my experiences with different distros on my ThinkPad:

http://temporaryland.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/finding-the-right-distro-for-my-thinkpad-t61-part3/

So, my objection is only to the insistence of some of its users in proclaiming it the undisputed best distro, especially when it comes to Linux newbies. Of course, I am just stating what I have seen in my experience with the distro. If I am wrong in my observation please let me know. So, with that in mind, let me tell you why I disagree with the above attitude:

1) Too much use of the command line is required!

That is right. I can't believe people call Ubuntu a newbie friendly distro when so many "how-to" instructions point the user to the command line. Isn't it clear to all that the command line is a very scary place for new users. Why? Well, because they have no idea what they are doing. Yes, most of the times if they type the commands exactly as instructed things will go well, but it is very easy for them to confuse a - with a -- or a I with a l, or to miss a space or ... For new users, being lead to the command line is like being taken by the hand, hopping through rocks over a swamp, at night, blind folded.

I can think of at least three distributions that are much better at providing GUI tools for basic tasks than Ubuntu. If you want names, I'll give them to you.

2) From what I have seen, many of the GUI tools that are provided are missing features that are available in other distros!

Yes, I know that there is this mentality that thinks that offering too many options for a user is going to overwhelm him, but the other extreme is also true. Offering too few options is going to frustrate him, especially when we know that the options exist but are simply not exposed.

For example, how does one connect to a printer being shared by a CUPS server? There is no interface offered for this CUPS feature. Your only option is to install the driver locally. I mentioned this on the follow up to the writeup I mentioned above:

http://temporaryland.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/finding-the-right-distro-for-my-thinkpad-followup/

Now, maybe I just happen to stumble into the one feature that is missing from Ubuntu (or maybe Mint removed it? ), I am not sure. But, I doubt it. I have seen this tendency for removing features in Gnome for a while. Sometimes, this may be justified, I agree. But other times I have been left wondering if maybe there are other reasons for this. Who of you remember the time when Nautilus was to have only the Spacial option for navigating through directories? Good thing that idea was finally defeated.

3) At least on my hardware, only Ubuntu (OK Linux Mint, but same thing) cannot connect to WPA2 wireless networks. It detects the network but it won't connect. So, how is it that the other "lesser" distros can connect?

4) This is my personal pet peeve: Not being able to rename files or folders from the file dialog in GTK based applications, which means most of the applications that come with Gnome.

OK, those are my reasons for thinking that Ubuntu is not the best distro available right now, especially for newbies. No offense intended. Just expressing my opinion from having tried it and many other distros.

 

So for a Linux newbie, which distro would you recommend?

 

Everybody has a right to an opinion.
Ironically, I am impartial on this one.
Funny post though.

I suppose compared to something, we can tout or crack at different OS's and flavors. But REALLY ought we not better spending our time hunting down and harpooning the people who made Vista or the policy makers for drivers for it?

After all, Linux is free.
And Apples rarely crash or fail.
And once you work out the kinks in ANY linux app, or wait or collaborate, you solve the issue.
Newbie stuff and linux are kind of like "military" and "intelligence" -especially when almost everyone I know can't even install a new driver, let alone a printer- lol! "User Accessibility" has a heck of a long way to go in ALL apps and distro's.

But regardless, it's a start.
What would you do different to it though... and are there people working on making those changes?
I want to know and hear from THEM!!!

*grin*

 

PCLinuxOS would be my first recommendation. Mandriva would be second. Linux Mint would be third. The deciding factor would be how compatible the hardware is. If the hardware works with all of them, PCLinuxOS would be the best for a newbie.

 

I was thinking of trying PCLinuxOS myself. I've been watching videso from this site: http://www.category5.tv/content/blogcategory/1/29/

Looks very promising.

 

My router uses WPA2 and I can connect with the 4 distros I tried, including Mint & Ubuntu although those 2 detect it as a WPA1 encryption, it still works.

 

Did it just work out of the box? Or did you have to do something else?

 

I liked PCLOS gnome edition, but it would not work with my wireless card....mandriva kept dropping my connections. Mint and Ubuntu have been great....so, yes, it's all about hardware at first, and whether you prefer gnome or KDE....for me it's gnome all the way

 

you'll always have to configure wpa_supplicant. it will not work out of the box and connect you to a secure network without having 'to do something else'. however, connecting to an unencrypted network can work out of the box if the driver is already built into the kernel. such as iwl. otherwise you'll need to build/install/compile the driver. even windows has this issue. if i reinstall xp on a dell, wireless may or may not work. i may or may not have to install a driver. regardless, i'll still have to configure it. there's no way in hell wpa-psk is going to work out of the box without out you creating a passphrase or selecting the essid. this is why linux has those nice little click and pointy things like networkmanager or madwifi if you're afraid of the scary wpa_supplicant.

 

yea.... when i started ubuntu (after being told it is for n00bs) i had so many minor things with terminal that i would mess up, and it took me 3 days to get compiz working, and i still cant get avant to work right and such..... so is there such a thing as a linux version of a .exe that you get from the internet? or is that the amazing thing about windows? software in a click? and dont get me started about my fiascos trying to get whine working, lol

 

um? yeah? they are commonly referred to as binaries. you have a whole ****load in /bin or /sbin. do a 'file /bin/ping' and there's your amazingness.

 

Well, I thought it would have been obvious that I did not mean that. Of course I know that I need to enter the correct psk. How do you think I was able to connect with PCLOS or Mandriva? What I was asking was whether or not you had to follow instructions like this one to get it to work:

http://www.linuxmint.com/wiki/index.php/MintWifi#WPA

or this one:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=318539

I tried, but even then could not get it to work, on my hardware.

 

Yes, I figured you were. And I also imagine that you have probably never tried a good KDE implementation, like PCLinuxOS. If all I knew about KDE was Kubuntu, I too would favor Gnome.

 

I've tried them since about 1999, including PCLOS....it sure has improved, but I just can't handle Konqi and the gears chasing me all over the desktop....gnome just seems kleaner, I mean cleaner.......LOL That said, I will try KDE4 when they get the gremlins worked out of it.

 

I never stop being amazed at how different things bother some people and not others. I had never even noticed that there was a KDE logo there. I quickly booted Gnome to see if there was a Gnome logo in Nautilus, and sure enough. So, what can I say? You prefer to use Gnome because you prefer the little monkey feet over the gears logo. As they say, knock yourself out. Or is it Gnock yourself out?

 

LOL....just yanking your chain.....good one...

 

In defense of Ubuntu, I often give new people instructions using the command line rather than through the GUI because they're less likely to make a mistake. I can tell someone to just copy+paste what I send them and they'll have it working, without having to navigate piles of menus.

Plus, since I'm a Kubuntu user, I don't know where the Gnome GUI tools are anyway. The command line is more universal and tends to be the only way I can provide assistance to people in that situation.

I'm having a similar problem, but with Kubuntu. I have to use the command line wpa_supplicant in order to connect to this WPA Enterprise network I have to use here at college. All the options exist in KNetworkManager, it just sits there and never connects when all the same options that are in wpa_supplicant are put in KNetworkManager.

I can't really address your others in any way since I don't use Gnome. I can understand your frustrations, however; there are little quirks here and there that I've picked up on myself in KDE.

- Trip

 

The college I'm going next year uses LEAP (yes I was WTF when I learned about it). Does that work well on Ubuntu? I know it's been banned under Vista.

 

My college doesn't use it, so I wouldn't know about LEAP. I'm almost certain it will work, the question is how hard will it be. The easy way would be for Network Manager to handle it, but there are some things that Network Manager just can't seem to do. Here's what it takes to get on the network at my college:

http://uvalug.ue8.org/wiki/Cavalier_Wireless

I made most of that page. I see something at the bottom that mentions Network Manager is now working, but I tried it today myself and still had no success connecting with it.

- Trip

 

I'll see next year. I don't know if they still use LEAP. It's a CÉGEP (Quebec's college+ general eduction grade 12th & 13th), I'm gonna do sciences-based grade 12th & 13th in a programme where everyone has a laptop. Last year the guys told me the laptop needs to support LEAP but all the laptops at the college's co-op now come with Vista and they even have Vista Business OEM for $110 CAD.

I'll probably retry Fedora 8 next month. Changing a distro is like playing with a new toy

 

you need to understand that windows and mac are commercialized, and to be a commercialized product they need to be able t be user friendly to people without computer experience. linux on the other hand is designed by programmers trying to make the most efficient os out there, while keeping it free.

it's much easier to type "blah" than to sort through 10 pages of garbage. besides, most linux users complelely customize their os to the point that they don't have the same stuff as everyone else. there are so many distros so the command line is more universal, though sometimes commands might be a bit different. think of it as comparing US english to UK english. the spelling and word usage might be somewhat different, but you get the idea from looking at it.

once you get used to linux commands, you'll notice you can do things much faster with a command terminal than you can by clicking through menu's (excluding program shortcuts on the desktop and other things). also, keep in mind, when your interface crashes you're stuck with a command line. since linux is always changing, crashes are quite frequent while testing and upgrading so the command line is useful if you get your pants up in a bunch.

i just hope one day within a few years linux will be able to compete with hardware usage like on windows, so graphic editting, audio editting, gaming, and the like will be more available on linux.

on a side note, my old pc (athlon 64 3500+,1 gig ram, nvidia FX 5700LE, 200gb hdd @7200 rpm) that ran ubuntu booted nearly instantly, and shut down at the same speed. even with beryl and compiz the computer was able to handle most of the graphical interface with amazing stability. that right there is good programming, unlike vista which bogs down the pc, and to boot, the gui on linux looked far superior than vista's.

 

Exactly how I feel. Especially the lines in bold.

 

I love the command line, but it is not ideal for newbies. Graphical interfaces reassure newbies by indicating the name of the dialog box they are in, the name of the button they are going to click, etc. A command line to a newbie is just a black hole.

So, when they say that Ubuntu is a better distro for new Linux users than PCLinuxOS, or Mandriva, Mepis, or even Mint, I just have to wonder what is going on here! Someone obviously has an agenda. This is just not true.

 

Mint is Ubuntu BTW. So really Mint fixes the stuff for extreme newbies. By "extreme" I mean lazy. LOL

I use Mint myself because the latest version of Ubuntu was giving me problems.

Also what makes Ubuntu the better choice for most is because of the Drivers. Most newbies (depending on what Wifi card or other hardware they have) would have a problems knowing how to enable/compile. Ubuntu is the most successful at out the box driver compatibility. I know I had problems with Mandriva and other distros with my WiFi when I first started messing with Linux.

 

That is not my experience.

Give them a try now. On my ThinkPad, both Mandriva and PCLinuxOS currently outclass Ubuntu in hardware compatibility and wifi support.

http://temporaryland.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/finding-the-right-distro-for-my-thinkpad-followup/

http://temporaryland.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/pclinuxos-2008-on-my-thinkpad-t61/

 

READ THIS, It's interesting.

 

I tried PCLOS Gnome, but I couldn't get the LiveCD to recognize my X1400 and/or LCD screen on my e1705. I'm certain there's a way to get it working, but since I already run Gutsy without any problems I didn't spend too much time digging for how to get X-Server working enough to install the OS.

As for WPA2, I have no experience with Enterprise, but WPA2 Personal worked right out of the box with my 3945, which also worked right out of the box. For people who can't connect, try this little experiment: disable all encryption on the router, but leave SSID hidden. I'll wager you still can't connect. Hidden SSID is a problem with Debian, and AFAIK only the Gnome NetworkManager package has a fix. Enable WPA2 and disable SSID and see if you have any luck connecting.

I also got my DWA-643 working with the experimental madwifi drivers, my LCD properly configured at 1920x1200, and the new RadeonHD drivers working. I'd use the Catalyst 8.01 drivers, but since there's that whole hibernate/suspend problem with the current kernel, I'll wait until 8.02 before using the proprietary binary driver again.

For newbies, I recommend Mint, since it is a little easier to navigate than Ubuntu. For me, I use Gutsy (and Heron when it goes gold in April), but I still maintain a dual-boot with XP, since I use Microsoft Office for work (and a few other applications that are Windows only and don't work under Wine). Another reason I use Ubuntu is because of the sheer volume of help available for that distro. I got my CAC reader working on my first attempt using a DoD CAC help webpage that's on the Ubuntu website, and (most) every problem I encounter is solved with a quick Google search.

I continue to try other distros at least two or three times a month, and when I find one that I like better than Gutsy, I'll migrate to it. Right now, however, Ubuntu meets my needs better than the other distros.

 

Yes, it was interesting. He is not a newbie though. In the end he found Mandriva (using Gnome) to be slightly more polished. Hardware wise, it seems to have been a wash, although he does say that the Mandriva hardware tools are better. Did I miss your point?

Now, how would this comparison have gone if he was a newbie and had used PCLinuxOS instead of Mandriva? Maybe like this?

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=39585.msg303148#msg303148

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=39812.0

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=39159.0

Or, if you really must use Gnome:

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=35960.0

Sure, experience varies. But, I have tried both and find that there is a substantial advantage to PCLOS for a newbie. Have you tried PCLOS 2008?

 

In the Ubuntu link at least, those instructions basically ignore the existence of Network Manager, or knetworkmanager in my case... KDE is much more usable than Gnome to a power user. It even lets you rename files from the file browsing dialog like you want.

That post was made in June of 2006. Since then, networkmanager/knetworkmanager have become part of the standard distribution, and as such those are really only useful instructions for non-workstation or laptop machines. Check into those. You may also be running into this bug in WPA2 on Ubuntu, or something similar.

 

Well Ununtu can do all the work for you on unallocated space too. Guided Mode. (Referring to the first link)

There are a thousands of posts and links that contradict each other. Some newbies have better experience with Ubuntu over any other.

I'm also a Gnome only guy.

 

I have to say that I think Ubuntu is great I think 8.04 will push Linux even further this year, it's a LTS so it's gotta be right and a lot of command line stuff is easy you know, if you're stuck and can follow instructions from other users you should be fine