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    Is Lenovo Canada being dishonest? Check it out.

    Discussion in 'Lenovo' started by philosopherdog, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    I'm just noticing that there's a 48 hour sale today at Lenovo Canada but if you order a backlit screen for some models, like the T400, guess what? You'll pay $360 for an $80 upgrade! I called them and they say that they know about the problem. Uh hu. Honest mistake or a bit of dishonesty going on here? Anyhow, they say that they will have it fixed within 48 hours, which would make it fixed by the time the sale is over. If you paid $360 get the priced corrected for sure. Is Lenovo being dishonest or is this just a website glitch? Looks pretty bad either way.
     
  2. i5aac

    i5aac Notebook Consultant

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    They've been having that $360 LED problem intermittently for a while now on the Canadian website. It does seem pretty convenient that it will be 'fixed' just in time for the sale to end, but I'm more inclined to think that they're incompetent than intentionally dishonest. Either way it's completely ridiculous and unprofessional.
     
  3. talin

    talin Notebook Prophet

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    Hey, that's better than a $10,000 CPU downgrade!! Lenovo's sites seem to be always riddled with typos. :rolleyes: Stupid that it's during a sale, but, I would say don't get the LED then.
     
  4. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Well why not? It's not the real price of the backlit feature. Perhaps they're not being dishonest I'm not sure, but all of the T400's have the same +$360 for backlighting. Coincidence? How many people are ordering them with that feature and paying the extra $360 unknowingly. I'll bet they're making a fortune with that mistake, it's almost 1/4 of the base price of the machine after all.
     
  5. i5aac

    i5aac Notebook Consultant

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    I wonder if there would be any way for you to use their 21 day price-match guarantee in this instance? I can't wrap my head around the mechanics of it at the moment, but it seems to me like it might be workable. Thoughts?
     
  6. Jackboot

    Jackboot Notebook Deity

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    Come on conspiracy theorists...this is a dumb web programming mistake, not an intentional way for a multi-million dollar company to eek a couple hundred dollars out of less observant customers during a sale.

    Anyway, can't you just place a phone order?
     
  7. jimbob83

    jimbob83 Notebook Evangelist

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    Yep, its strange how that $360 price coincides with the coupons and then reverts to $80 when the coupons expire. I've noticed this twice now.
     
  8. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    I will do this by phone, but I was trying to get a price match, and you need a card saved with the same configuration. I think throwing up your hands and saying this is a conspiracy seems a bit quick. According to another poster this has happened at least one other time there was a sale. How many people are inadvertently buying this machine at the wrong price? Is Lenovo refunding them the difference? Anyone on here pay $360 for backlighting on a T400 and get a refund from Lenovo? Let's hear from you.
     
  9. proxima_centauri

    proxima_centauri Notebook Consultant

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    I saved almost $200 on a 3 yr accidental coverage warranty (which I later got for free anyways since my laptop was 2 months late - but that's besides the point) due to a website error - Lenovo's mistakes aren't always to their benefit.
     
  10. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    I see. But I think your point isn't really relevant to this thread. Lenovo's inability to deliver machines they took orders for is quite a different issue. Obviously they had to compensate people for that. But putting the wrong prices on a web page during a sale, and not just once, but apparently at least twice according to another poster, is a red flag and raises questions about business ethics at the very least. I know, for instance, that Dell recently was caught by a class action suite for engaging in illegal and unethical practices. This isn't just "conspiracy theory" stuff. Selling notebook computers is very competitive and companies, including multi-million dollar companies, like Dell for instance, do illegal and unethical things to try to squeeze a bit more out for their shareholders. Is that what's going on here? That's my question.
     
  11. Lithus

    Lithus NBR Janitor

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    What if they just don't want to put laptops with LED screens on sale? Say I'm selling shoes and I say that all of them are on sale, except for the ones with red laces. Is that dishonest?
     
  12. pacmandelight

    pacmandelight Notebook Deity

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    $99,999 for free PC DOS error was hilariously incompetent.
     
  13. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Well nobody is forcing them to have a sale. Right? In fact some models are not on sale, or are reduced by much less. Also, parts and warranties are not included in the sale to the same extent. But, look, we're talking about a component that usually costs $80; they are claiming they have a sale on for 19% off the whole computer, including all the selectable components. But the backlight is more than 4 times the regular price. If they are doing this knowingly then it is actually illegal to do that, and also unethical. They are obviously misleading people if they are knowingly doing this. They should also return the money anyone paid over the usual $80 plus give them the discount of 19%. If they don't want to put backlit screens onsale they can do that but not by deception and by charging more for the machine than it would have cost before the sale! Anyhow, I'm not saying they are doing this deliberately, but there is a presumption that something funny is happening here.
     
  14. Kainnon

    Kainnon Notebook Enthusiast

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    I believe the phrase goes something like this:
    Don't attribute malice, where incompentency will suffice.

    At this point, we're fairly sure that the lenovo website is run by a bunch of monkeys.
     
  15. proxima_centauri

    proxima_centauri Notebook Consultant

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    I think you misunderstood. I saved $200 because of a website glitch - I still payed around $150 for the 3yr warranty. Lenovo then compensated for what I payed because of the late delivery, after the fact. My point is that Lenovo's website is always full of holes and it is indifferent to cost. Some people get savings, some people get ripped off, and sometimes - people actually pay the right price. :D
     
  16. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Well look at that: today, day 2 of the "sale", they have fixed the backlit issue on their site by removing the option entirely! Evidently they don't want you to have backlighting for the sale price, or they want you to pay more than you would save on the sale. Still willing to defend Lenovo? What they're doing is pretty obvious I think.

    Yesterday:
    Display type Help me decide Help me decide
    14.1" WXGA TFT [subtract $360.00]
    14.1" WXGA+ TFT [subtract $330.00]
    14.1" WXGA+ TFT w/ LED BL
    Today:
    Display type Help me decide Help me decide
    14.1 WXGA TFT
    14.1 WXGA+ TFT [add $30.00]
     
  17. mystery905

    mystery905 Notebook Deity

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    I had an online chat asking why there was no LED backlight option, and he told me there are 'supply' issues.

    We'll see if those 'supply' issues are resolved after the sale!
     
  18. elfroggo

    elfroggo Notebook Evangelist

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    I don't get where this is illegal. What law is this breaking?

    If you select the choice to pay 4x the normal price for the backlight then that is your choice. I could try to sell my used laptop on craigslist for 2x the original price. That isn't illegal. If someone wants it then they'll pay the price for it.

    As a consumer, you should be doing the research to determine if a feature is worth the cost.
     
  19. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Well I guess that depends what country you're in. But I think in most Western countries it is illegal to falsely advertise. So, if you say you are having a sale, but actually it's more than your regular price, I'd say that's misleading and hence illegal. I'm not sure why you're defending this, assuming it's deliberate. Are you just trying to be contrary? If you want to sell a laptop on craigslist you are not a business. But if you misled someone, like you said that it was a Pentium I and it was a 486, then you certainly could find yourself in small claims court for misleading them. I'm not sure where you live, but here, at least, we have laws against misleading advertising at the very least. Obviously consumers bear a certain responsibility. But that doesn't include "researching" a product to make sure you aren't being ripped off on a falsely advertised sale. Come on. Let's not play games with words.
     
  20. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    If you're confused about consumer protection, check out the major class action suites against Dell. I'll paste one below from Beta news in which Dell was doing quite similar things, including bait and switch, shipping computers with lower specs than people were paying for, selling totally defective laptops knowingly (like the lovely Inspiron series), and the list goes on and on. So, if you're confused about consumer protection please inform yourself. This stuff isn't conspiracy theory. It's the reality of a tight computer market where cheating customers is an established and accepted way to make money. It's folks like elfroggo who don't get why cheating, lying, stealing, and knowingly ripping people off who are running companies like Dell and probably Lenovo. I have little doubt about it. Anyhow, let me paste the piece below from Beta news.

    Dell found guilty in New York of misleading, harassing customers

    By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

    May 27, 2008, 6:13 PM

    Dell on Tuesday lost a major judgment in New York, in a case that centered around its financing practices for customers in which it was accused of defrauding and even harassing some.

    The case was brought by the state's attorney-general Andrew Cuomo one year ago, and alleged that Dell failed to provide "zero-percent financing" to as much as 85% of the customers to whom that rate was promised, or who were otherwise entitled to such a rate. Dell then failed, the suit alleged, to provide customers with the customer support to which they were clearly entitled.

    "Respondent Dell has engaged in repeated misleading, deceptive and unlawful business conduct, including false and deceptive advertising of financing promotions and the terms of warranties, fraudulent, misleading, and deceptive practices in credit financing and failure to provide warranty service and rebates," states this afternoon's ruling from Justice Joseph Teresi (PDF available here).

    Justice Teresi went on to say certain petitioners were entitled to restitution, though the amount has yet to be determined.

    According to a statement from A-G Cuomo's office this afternoon, Justice Teresi apparently agreed with evidence showing that Dell customers were not informed they could qualify for lower interest rates or better terms, and were instead charged as much as 20% interest on their purchases. Those who complained, Teresi found, were subjected to illegal harassment and false billing.

    To help make their case, petitioners for the plaintiffs submitted several Dell advertisements. "The ads offer such promotions as free flat panel monitors, additional memory, significant rebates and instant discounts in very large point print in contrasting color," Justice Teresi wrote.

    "They also include offers of very attractive financing, such as no interest and no payments for a specified period of time in prominent positions and similar large fonts and colors. While there is fine print below the financing offers limiting them to 'well qualified' customers, and after certain litigation, 'best qualified' customers, nothing in the ads indicate what standards are used to determine whether a customer is well qualified.

    "There is also no indication of how many customers are likely actually to qualify," the ruling continues. "Petitioner's submissions indicate that as few as 7% of New York applicants qualified for some promotions. Petitioner has submitted several affidavits from consumers alleging that they saw these ads and were persuaded to call or access Dell's Internet site to shop for a computer because of the financing promotions. However, most applicants, if approved for credit, were offered very high interest rate revolving credit accounts ranging from approximately 16% up to almost 30% interest without the prominently advertised promotional interest deferral."

    In his statement this afternoon, Cuomo said, "For too long at Dell the promise of customer service was a bait and switch that left thousands of people paying for essentially no service at all. We have won an important victory that will force Dell to live up to its responsibilities and pay back its customers for profits that were pocketed but not deserved. This decision sends an important message that all corporations will be held accountable for the promises they make to consumers."

    This evening, Dell spokesperson Jess Blackburn issued this statement to BetaNews on behalf of the company: "We don't agree with this decision and will be defending our position vigorously. Our goal has been, and continues to be, to provide the best customer experience possible. We are confident that when the proceedings are finally completed the court will determine that only a relatively small number of customers have been affected."
     
  21. Hanson

    Hanson Notebook Guru

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    You should ask them if there are 'supply' issues, why Lenovo USA, which is so many times larger than the Canadian market, still selling the LED option at a reasonable price.
     
  22. elfroggo

    elfroggo Notebook Evangelist

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    Well I certainly wouldn't say that the Lenovo site is the best designed or well run out there, but I do not believe that the backlight pricing was purposefully trying to trick people into buying it.

    Did they increase the price of that option to discourage people from buying it? That's possible. As you pointed out yourself, the backlight option has been removed entirely now so the situation is resolved. I'm not going to speculate on supply issues as to why the US has the option and Canada does not because that's all it is: speculation.
     
  23. jimbob83

    jimbob83 Notebook Evangelist

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    If Lenovo in the US is still selling the LED screen, how is it that Canada has no supply of them? I thought the laptops are all made in China and shipped to wherever.
     
  24. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Your belief that Lenovo isn't trying to deliberately trick people isn't supported by any evidence. I'd like to believe that too, since I just gave the $1500 dollars! :( I think that the facts are that they had a price of $360 yesterday during a 48 hour 19% off sale, when they admitted to me on the phone that the option was incorrectly listed and is normally $80. They said they were aware of the problem and were working on a fix. So, apparently the fix is that there is no option today; notice nobody said to me yesterday that there was insufficient stock. What that looks like to me is that yesterday they were charging too much for that option. So, they should return the money to anyone who ordered it and apologize on their website for the oversight. Pretty simple. That's the right thing to do. As far as them not wanting to sell the backlit option on the sale pricing then they should just say that. If they don't have stock, then they should have a note saying that ordering this part will delay shipment. Not difficult. Also the fact that the US store is still carrying the part looks rather suspicious, especially since the sale on that site is not nearly as discounted. Anyhow, personally I'm insisting on the price match on my machine. If anyone else is in the same situation please stay in touch and let us know whether you got price matching. You can still do it today by calling them up. I understand it's 21 days from the day of purchase and the sale is over tonight, but I would call by 5 pm.
     
  25. ideoteque85

    ideoteque85 Notebook Consultant

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    Well the practice of increasing the price for the 'SALE' is happening in the US site as well. I've posted some of my findings here:
    http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=320120
    #8

    The bottom line. I created a quote yesterday for the T500 with the 5% discount. All was fine as it is cheaper than T500 quote with the same specs I created a week ago. Today I created the exact same computer and it is $60 more than the price quote I got yesterday. In fact it is $4 more expensive than the quote I created last week.

    Same thing for the T400. I had a price quote from 10/21. I've just configured the exact same configuration today with the sale and it's $4 more than the supposed 'SALE' price.

    I just thought of a possible reason for price increase. Fluctuating value of the dollar in the market.
     
  26. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    I think it is understandable that prices do fluctuate somewhat. But I guess what we're talking about is this business about making a sought after component, the backlit screen, essentially worth over 4X its "pre-sale" price. Which isn't just a price fluctuation in the ordinary sense. Their site is glitchy, but the glitch seems to make the price of backlit lcds worth more than 4X their price when they have a "sale". So, I think this is a bit of different issue. I expect prices to fluctuate a bit since currency markets are unstable as you say, but this isn't that. :eek:
     
  27. proxima_centauri

    proxima_centauri Notebook Consultant

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    You can't accuse an opposing party of not having any evidence, the burden of proof is on you, you are making the claim.

    The fact of the matter is, you do not have any proof.

    Just as an aside,
    From Lenovo.ca, http://www.lenovo.com/news/ca/en/2008/01/0708_results.html
    Third Quarter 2008/09 "The Americas accounted for US$1.2 billion in consolidated sales"
    Okay, so you say Canada obviously has less revenue than the US when looking at the colossal number. US = 300,000,000 people, Canada = 33,000,000. Canada has roughly 11% the population of the USA. Let's just say 10% for the sake of simplicity. thats $120,000,000 made in Canada. Divide that by 3 is $40,000,000 a month, divide by 30 and thats $1,333,333 a day. Lets say the average person spends around $1200 on a laptop. Thats around 1100 Laptops a day. Lets say 800 people bought the LED screen. Thats an extra 800x$300 for lenovo: $240,000.

    Thats 0.6% of Lenovo Canada's monthly revenue. or 0.2% of their quarterly revenue. - after being extremely generous.

    I personally can not believe Lenovo would purposely be dishonest and risk their reputation for an insanely low stake in revenue, but you are free to believe as you wish.

    Beyond this, Yes, I agree, everyone who purchased the LED screen should be reimbursed by Lenovo since they have admitted it was a mistake.
     
  28. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Well I suppose you could make the same argument against Dell. (See my entry on Dell above). But this is precisely what they got caught doing and more. They also had a class action suite against them by Canadians for selling Inspirons like the 1100 knowing they were defective. So, I'm sure if Dell is doing it, then Lenovo can be easily imagined to be engaging in similar practices. Merely saying that I have no evidence is not the same as showing it. I've presented a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence. It's not conclusive. I don't claim it is. There are some other postings in this forum on tactics by Lenovo, such as the classic, bait and switch. So, these are pieces of evidence. To say that there is no evidence is obviously false. Also, notice that if you are claiming that Lenovo isn't up to anything here then the onus is just as much on you to substantiate that claim, which so far you have not. Indeed, if you are right then we should expect similar behaviour from companies like Dell, but we know that they have acted otherwise, however petty this may seem when you do the math. :)
     
  29. proxima_centauri

    proxima_centauri Notebook Consultant

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    Not sound, different beast entirely: actively selling defective equipment vs. selling working equipment over-priced for 1 day due to a self-admitted website error. While I'm not going to dismiss the fact that wrongdoing is possible, you cannot make that inference based on these two events.

    Agreed, I never said you had no evidence, I said you had no proof.

    No it is not. That does not make sense. You can't have the burden of proof on both parties. All i was "claiming", was that some reason, and I, disagreed with your position that Lenovo was intentionally dishonest.
     
  30. i5aac

    i5aac Notebook Consultant

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    Just looking on the Lenovo Canada site now, and there is currently not even an option to get the LED backlight, and also the built-in webcam option is missing. I guess I'll wait until the options return before I give this extremely responsible and professional company my credit card information.
     
  31. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    I'm sure you'll be able to order the backlight LED tomorrow when the "sale" is over. No doubt.
     
  32. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Yes, that's right you expressed disagreement, but offered NO justification (as I stated in my last post), and then you went on to make a rather bad argument of your own based on the math of how little they would profit by being cheats, which I think I showed was not reasonable. So, when you make an argument that they are not cheats you have the same onus of proof as I do, since you are no longer showing that my argument is flawed but you are making an argument of your own. Hence, you inherit the onus of proof by doing this. Pretty basic.

    Moreover, notice, I never claimed to have a "proof", whatever you mean by that. I have made it clear in all of my posts on this issue that I only have circumstantial evidence that points to a presumption of dishonesty. I think that was very clear.

    My point about Dell is certainly relevant to your argument. Your claim, as I recall, was essentially that big companies like Lenovo don't do petty stuff like engage in false advertising, because the scale of money for doing this (especially in a small market like Canada) is too small to bother with. Obviously this isn't a reasonable position for the reason that companies like Dell, a very big computer company, have been caught doing similar and even identical things. (See the post above and do a search on it if you doubt this fact). So, I think that it's obvious that this is not only something that's possible for big computer companies, but in fact has happened. Dell is hardly alone I dare say, but I won't offer you any evidence for that. I'm sure you can do the research yourself. So, in short, the position that engaging in false advertising isn't a reasonable presumption because large companies don't engage in such petty illegal activity can't be sustained. :D
     
  33. proxima_centauri

    proxima_centauri Notebook Consultant

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    I shouldn't have to explain burden of proof, but essentially it will always lie on you, the complainant, until you provide enough evidence to make your position the more reasonable one. You have not done that yet. This is what is meant in the legal profession by innocent until proven guilty, I don't have to prove my innocence, it is taken for granted. You on the other hand, have to proof me guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If you want to discuss this further feel free to PM me.

    You are making an unsubstantiated claim, that's all I'm saying. It's more reasonable to believe Lenovo made an honest mistake.

    Your sweeping Dell-Lenovo generalization has no basis. Your argument is that:
    1. Dell is a large company that sells laptops
    2. Lenovo is a large company that sells laptops
    3. Dell has been caught of cheating customers in the past
    Thus,
    3. Lenovo has been cheating customers

    Good luck with Lenovo issue, I truly do hope you receive retribution for a pointless overprice.
     
  34. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    Obviously you haven't bothered to actually read what I'm claiming. Your numbered rendering of my argument makes this clear. I'd also add that you don't understand onus of proof. This is not a courtroom for starters, where the bias is stacked in favour of the accused for obvious reasons. Anyhow, feel free to pm me if you want to talk further. I'm certain that there's sufficient reason here to suspect something fishy might be going on at Lenovo. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary in anything you've said.
     
  35. cfoo

    cfoo Notebook Consultant

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    Chill out guys. This thread is a good one. Lets not get it locked up.

    Honest or mistake. I've given up on the Lenovo Canada site. When I ordered my T60 just shy of 2years ago. I was over charged by $400. It took 4 days to sort it out over the phone. 2yrs later I'm browsing the site looking for a T400 it scares me how everything is pretty much the same. I've given up and is taking my money else where.

    There's no point arguing. Take your money some where else.
     
  36. i5aac

    i5aac Notebook Consultant

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    I'm noticing that the notebook section of the Canadian Lenovo site is down for 'routine maintenance', so maybe they're replacing the missing options. I don't even want the LED screen, but they also took away the option to get the built-in webcam, which I want!
     
  37. i5aac

    i5aac Notebook Consultant

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    So I guess it's pretty clear that there was no dishonest intent behind the lack of LED options on the Lenovo site during the 2-day sale. The sale is long over and the LED screen option, as well as the option for the built-in webcam, is still unavailable. So they're not dishonest, they're just unprofessional.
     
  38. philosopherdog

    philosopherdog Notebook Consultant

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    I think that's a bit of a quick conclusion.
    1) First if you want to order the notebook, call them and insist on the correct price. Make sure that you have any coupon codes in case the sales person doesn't want to help you with that.
    2) The fact that they didn't correct the price right after the sale isn't evidence that there's no dishonesty going on. They may also be disorganized with their web page and dishonest!
    Anyhow, I looked at many of the comments of those who submitted them after the T400 review on this site and I found one person who had bought the notebook for a very good deal through the Canada site in August and the LED was also wrongly priced then at $360. So, this is another piece of evidence that something shady might be going on here. Anyhow, if you call them you should be able to get whatever features you want.
     
  39. i5aac

    i5aac Notebook Consultant

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    Why would you assume that they are both disorganized AND dishonest, when disorganization alone explains the entire situation? That doesn't make any sense.

    The whole reason that it was originally alleged that Lenovo was being dishonest was because the higher price seemed to coincide with the sale. That turned out not to be the case, as the LED price remained higher after the sale ended.

    Now the problem has become that the LED screen is not even available on any T400 models - at ANY price. Neither is the built-in webcam. I am planning on ordering through a combination of EPP and coupons, so calling them would not be prudent in my situation.

    As the inability to order LED screens and built-in webcams does not serve to make Lenovo any extra money, by allowing them to conceal the higher price through a 'sale,' I think it is a safe to conclude that the pricing issue was the result of disorder and not dishonesty. The entire Lenovo site is rife with mistakes and problems, so this conclusion follows logically from their previous behavior.
     
  40. oiyhoy

    oiyhoy Notebook Enthusiast

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    Lenovo is a dishonest unprofessional company that does poor business, LED option available one day and not the next, even if it is available on the site you can place your order and then get the order cancelled because they don't have the LED screens even though they had them listed on their site at the time ...

    joke of a company ... Dell's no better, who else is there that makes a decent notebook with a good reputation anymore ... HP business line? Sony BZ's I don't know where to look anymore ....
     
  41. elfroggo

    elfroggo Notebook Evangelist

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    Their website can be crap so why not give sales a call and purchase that way? Or are we so afraid of human interaction these days that that is no longer an option?

    By the way, the sales department are good old Americans in Atlanta so no complaints of outsourcing there still. Tech support I believe is a different matter.