In defense of the new Thinkpads...

I think it's perfectly fine for Lenovo to come out with new, fresh designs. As long as they don't mess with their traditional line, which you are still free to purchase, it's nice to see them experiment with more modern styling.

I don't understand why people feel insulted with things like the Edge or the SL-Series. While I do appreciate the retro, no BS design of the Thinkpad, I just can't expect Lenovo to keep on making the same laptop with updated internals. Now, they have the new keyboard design and new trackpad surface, which seem to be great improvements. I say let them experiment a little bit!

 

I agree with you. Recently, I've seen an overwhelming animosity towards Lenovo's broadening of the Thinkpad line, but fortunately or unfortunately, that's business.

I like how Lenovo remains conservative with their changes to the core Thinkpad line (T-series, R-series, X-series) while exploring more radical features in other product lines. Sure, they don't have to call those machines Thinkpads, but as they are keeping the business-like spirit, I think it's justified. Besides, Thinkpad enthusiasts know that the T-, R-, and X-series are the "true Thinkpads."

I like some of the changes that Lenovo is implementing, such as the revised T400s-style keyboard, and the core features they continue to preserve, such as great cooling. And while that continues, I feel the Thinkpad line as a whole lives on, even if I do not like certain changes (thicker T510, loss of indicator lights, etc).

 

I think they have way too many models now. Besides the Think and Idea series...they also have their value line of PCs. I'm curious what the sales volumes are like on the less popular designs and what the rationale is to keep them.

 

In my opinion the y series is just stupid, it doesn't seem to sell that much, and their designs are horrible. There recently in other manufacturers forms including a majority of animosity towards the new notebooks and designs coming out, especially the business machines. It gets annoying with the complaints and whines blah blah. They make the machines not use, and i think its great they are making more cheaper machines for business who can't afford during this depression that is becoming worse. Like i always say, these machines are made for businesses not really us consumers. But i am happy that lenovo is back with dedicated graphic cards but what i like to see is a much quieter keyboard mainly the spacebar man its loud!

 

Well I would say that in order to diversify your product range one would have to also pay attention to what customers want in the core business range. A revised X200 series with LED screens of good quality both 1280 x 800 and 1440 x 900. A revised T400 / T500 with the option of either 16/10 or 16/9 depending on the customer. LED screens from one and the same manufacturer that are the best in the industry and not a Lenovo problem/complaint area. Get it right first then expand to newer models.

 

It is arguable whether the X100e is a True Thinkpad....

 

I believe that we should wait for actual reviews of the new line of thinkpads to be able to correctly judge.

But anyway, I guess they were bound to expand from the very first day they started the company.

 

x100e is "okay". It's the Edge that is more problematic.

 

It's curious to know what IBM would have done with the line if they hadn't sold it to Lenovo. Although apparently the original IBM engineers from back in the day were still working on Lenovo ThinkPads but their contract expires sometime in 2010, seems like now since so many radical designs are coming out. As long as they still make the traditional expensive but guaranteed durable ThinkPad i'll keep coming back, like the X300/301.

 

I agree with this.

 

There almost identical products from a design perspective. The difference is what you're comparing them to.

The x100e seems okay because its reference point is netbooks. It shines in this comparison as the competition is so weak.

The Edge is more problematic because people compare it to the x301 and x200. Naturally it falls very flat and seems like a consumer toy rather than a business product. Conversely, it's pretty decent compared to other consumer CULV machines.

 

as do i.

my only gripe with the X100e is that it isn't smaller.   that aside, i have no reservations in saying it's worthy of being the first ThinkPad netbook.

the EDGE, however...

 

I really do agree with this. The X100e gets a pass because, as you say, at first glance, it appears to be better than anything else out there in the netbook class.

The Edge is not. It seems to be right down there in the muck along with my work-issued HP Elitebook. My previous nc6220 that it replaced was a worthy competitor to the Thinkpad; the Elitebook is not nor is the Edge worthy of the name.

I'll just link to something else I wrote this morning on the Design Matters blog comments to keep from repeating myself:

http://lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=3156#comment-86862

 

Yeah, I don't get the hate. They didn't change the T or W series into the Edge, the T and W series are still available for purchase, so who cares?

 

mainly anyone who, at one point in his or her life, paid $5000 for a ThinkPad and misses the day when it used to be a high-end brand.

but, those days are gone.   technology is inexpensive and PCs are becoming toasters (ie: inexpensive and mass-produced).

while it's easy to blame the manufacturers for this, it's more fair to blame an economic shift in consumer spending, the rate of technological advances, and the fact that the PC market is brutally competitive (unlike the stranglehold apple has on the mac market).

times are changing... that's for sure.

 

The people who were with ThinkPads in the IBM era as well as seeing the Lenovo era of ThinkPads do because they've seen the brand diluted and diluted up to this point and the ThinkPad line was traditionally only a few series but were all solid and had traditional uses. Now, people want cheap as hell (almost) disposable netbooks, so the quality suffers and ThinkPads were almost exclusively used in business work at one point, where quality was needed and you payed 4K for a ThinkPad but it lasted what, 9 years? Cause' my T21 from 2000 is still going strong albeit loose LCD cables which makes you have to move the screen back and forth to get it to work.
This is the dilemma, what's better? Paying 4K for a notebook that lasts a very long time? Or buying a 300 dollar netbook that gets thrown away after 1-2 years of use.

 

Spot on.

The notebook industry is extremely cut throat - even more so during the last couple of years due to the financial downturn. As any other company participating in this "war" Lenovo must also constantly innovate or create awareness to survive or develop sales. Having said that I am one of the opposers of tampering too much with the ThinkPad brand. Instead they should focus on Ideapads and/or their value line of notebooks.

While making the ThinkPad line more mainstream and contemporary might benefit and attract new ThinkPad consumers (who often don't know or care much about the ThinkPad history/culture) it can hurt sales/loyalty/brand perception amongst their traditional and very important customer base, namely the corporate segment.

Many of the users on NBR are enthusiast like myself and we are typically much more engaged and emotionally affected by developments of i.e. the ThinkPad line-up than the average person. Even if I am also a corporate user, many of the corporate IT purchasers probably do not feel as strongly as we enthusiasts do.

However, the purchasers do know (or should know) how to spend their IT budget wisely getting good proven/perceived quality value for their money. My last two employers chose ThinkPads for this reason. The ThinkPad name still rings a "best business tool" bell amongst many IT managers and purchasers.

At the same time companies like HP and even Dell have significantly upped their notebook standards and features within the lucrative corporate segment where money is not only earned on the notebook sales transaction, but often even more so on the warranty and support conditions. What this means is that ThinkPads are getting much more valid competition which in itself will make the ThinkPad choice less easy for the IT purchaser compared to the past.

Many of the students and new mainstream consumers writing on NBR not seeing any issues with Lenovo's ThinkPad strategy might have a point. But in my opinion only to a certain degree. The thing is, they are most likely seeing this move in relation to their profile - in other words from a mainstream individual private customer point of view. And from that point of view I can somewhat relate.

However, individual consumers (unless in huge quantities and buying highly profitable products) are far from as attractive and vital for ThinkPad sales as the corporate clients are. Wholesale/B2B is still very attractive in the notebook market or most markets for that matter, as quantities and value vs. effort spent are much more attractive for the manufacturers.

Hence my point is that Lenovo should be careful about diluting a strong business brand as the ThinkPad name still is - as this will potentially reduce their leverage, brand perception and hence demand within the corporate client segment, expecially when faced with fierce competition from HP and Dell.

I could see Lenovo trying offset the effect the financial crisis might have had on their B2B sales by attracting more consumer business. However, if any this new direction will probably only result in a short term consumer gain, which in the long run (assuming they continue their diluting of the ThinkPad brand) can lead to more substantial negative consequences for Lenovo within the B2B market.

 

I still don't get it. How does having the Edge in the Thinkpad lineup reduce the performance or value of the T-series? Or W-series? Or X-series? Or any other series?

Let's say I own a shop that sells nothing but delicious apples. One day, I decide to build a new room onto my shop and sell oranges out of it. I don't change anything about my apples. Does selling oranges make my apples taste worse somehow? I'm very confused.

 

Because your oranges are labeled as apples when in fact they're oranges.

 

That's basically it. When a customer buys what he believes to be an Apple (because you told him it was), and it turns out to be an orange, he's left with a very odd taste in his mouth.

 

I think lenovo now introduces more models is because thinkpad's traditional market and profit are shrinking. Many young people may prefer more stylish notebooks from Dell or Hp (I personally wouldn't mind if they offer more color to their traditional lines). If that's the case, they'll have to either raise the price, meaning loosing more corporate in this economy, or adjust themselves to compete, ie. introduce some entry level machines. Thinkpad isn't the ferrari for rich enthusiast, but made for corporate people to do their daily work. I'd rather see more people using it and praising for its quality, than to see it become so distant that I have to explain what is thinkpad.

 

Don't forget that shinyness and style are more attractive to women... I hate the Edge though.

 

ITYM "to some women", don't you?

 

Keep in mind that if a lower-quality laptop is labeled as a Thinkpad, and somebody buys it and has it broke down 1 year down the road, that person will conceive that all Thinkpads have crappy build quality. Businesses will be worse, they'll just shift their entire purchase to another brand.
Most people make generalization, and that's why it's not good to dilute the Thinkpad brand.

 

I think the main effects are psychological. Many enthusiasts are loyal to the ThinkPad brand; they believe that all ThinkPads are no-nonsense best-of-class business and work machines. The ThinkPad brand, to them, represents a no-compromise (to general consumer sentiments) commitment to quality. I am one of them.

The new designs hurt this loyalty. Nowadays ThinkPad represents a no-compromise commitment to quality... well except the SL series... and the Edge series... and who knows what else in the future... It is no longer possible to just buy a ThinkPad -- any ThinkPad -- and feel safe in the knowledge that you will get a great business machine.

Once they (we) come to terms with the reality that ThinkPad no longer represents a no-compromise commitment to quality, they (we) will stop complaining.

 

Most of us like something pretty or that looks nice. Say if next refresh came out to be more sleek and stylish while being just as practical and rock solid, wouldn't most people like it even more? I don't care that much about looks on a laptop, but if they can make it sexier while keeping all the pros of a TP, why not?

No offense intended though.

 

From what i've seen the general Thinkpad demographics are enthusiasts and business people who get one issued at work.
Most average people havent even ever seen one as they are not really sold in retail stores.

I dont think its a bad thing that Lenovo is trying to expand their customer base to be more mainstream. The Edge line seems to be a perfect fit to be sold with SL series in Best Buy (SL is already sold there).

I personally would love to have a computer with "classic" internals and with glossy screen and some color to it.

 

I personally like the look of the Edge, but I'm hearing its quality isn't up to snuff compared with other Thinkpads. Same with the SL series (I think the R series was better) and the X100e (nothing compares with the X200s in terms of design and quality).

What I wish is that the new design could be combined with the quality and feel of past Thinkpads. So if the next generation of the W, X, and T series come with a snazzier design similar to the Edge, but keep up with the quality and feel of previous ones, then all the better.

Also I wonder if we will get backlit keyboards in the X, W, and T series like some Edge models have. What do people think, backlit keyboard or Thinklight?

 

Personally, I'd rather have an affordable good and top notch machine for 2-3 (or even 4) years and then have enough money to upgrade to a newer machine with better technology. I wouldn't prefer having to spend 4K to buy a machine expecting to work it for 8 years, and then can't justify to spend another 4K to upgrade while having to deal with, say, "loose LCD cables which makes you have to move the screen back and forth to get it to work".

"Keep in mind that if a lower-quality laptop is labeled as a Thinkpad, and somebody buys it and has it broke down 1 year down the road, that person will conceive that all Thinkpads have crappy build quality."

Is it a generalization or fact proven by a scientific study?

 

No, i very clearly label them:
"wilse brand apple"
"wilse brand orange"

"thinkpad t-series"
"thinkpad edge"

But still, even if that weren't the case - your response doesn't answer my question. How does the existence of oranges in my store affect the performance of my apples? If you're a customer that only buys my apples, how is your experienced changed as a result of the oranges?

 

No, I think you're stretching too much.

When my customer buys an apple (t-series), he gets an apple (t-series). When he buys an orange (edge), he gets an orange (edge). I'm not asking about the experience of the people who end up with the oranges - I want to know about the people that end up with the apples. How are they affected?

 

I think he's trying to say that some people not familar with laptops may get confused and buy the lower tier oranges instead of the better apples thinking his oranges are just as good as the apples. What a terrible illustration you used.

 

You're right - why did I use apple?

And yes, I see exactly what he's saying - adding this stuff to the brand can really confuse people who aren't familiar with it. For those who don't know about "Thinkpad," the Edge could be what comes to mind when they think about the term.

But I'm interested in how it affects those of us who know all about Thinkpads - those of us who are long time customers and buy T-series, no matter what other options are available. As a T-series consumer, how does the existence of the Edge as a Thinkpad model affect my experience buying and owning a T410S, for example?

 

The consumers who don't know the difference between the Edge and a T/X/R/W are the ones who call the T/X/R/W ugly, old, or outdated. Many people stay away from Thinkpads based solely on this observation, so build quality obviously is not high on their list. The Edge is perfectly fine for this.

I think wilse has asked this question about three times already - how does the Edge affect the T/X/R/W?

 

They should have call the Thinkpad Edge, the Thinkpad Fringe . Regarding the X100e, i don't know what to say until i actually played with it... the CPU is bit underpowered and the keyboard will take some use too..... but i guess this sort of value line X series is attractive to consumers whom wants a X series but can't afford them, or already have a larger Thinkpad but wants another netbook for use with a thinkpad logo on them.... I guess X100e is the Cygnet of Aston Martin...

 

Perception is everything as the old adage goes. I know the Apple folks went through something similar not long ago when they're 13" line got the "Pro" moniker. People were raging in forums and blogs because it diluted the meaning of "Pro" for them. If someone shells out $2000 for the Pro why should Joe consumer be able to plop down $1000 for a machine in the Pro family? It doesn't affect the consumer's 2k machine in any way but it does affect their perception of its value since the Pro moniker no longer carries the same meaning.

I think the same thing is happening here.

 

Build quality is not important till when the laptop actually fails prematurely on them, while their friend whom bought a Thinkpad Classic at the same time, is still using theirs........

 

Maybe this is the same thing as having Rolls Royce Value Edition.......

 

The very fact that the concept of "branding" is so extensively used indicates that people generalize by brands. Otherwise why would companies spend so much money creating, maintaining, and marketing brands?

 

See the problem is they seem to like the idea of naming something that isn't of thinkpad standards as one. Not to mention what they have taken away from the current ones. When I think of a thinkpad I think of a laptop meant for work not watching movies or showing off at the coffee shop with a flashy laptop.

 

actually slapping the Pro name on the 13 inch didn't technically do anything by itself against the Apple brand, but it did highlight a trend in Apple laptops, there was little to distinguish an actual "professional" laptop from a non-pro laptop.

I think the real problem with the "new" Thinkpads is they could be an indication of a decline in quality for the "original" Thinkpads. If we lose the Thinkpad keyboard, rollcage, and other bits of quality, then there's no real reason to buy a Thinkpad, it'll be just like any other brand or even an Ideapad.

 

Brand marketing is important when there is over-abundance of suppliers competing for the limited demand that exists within the consumer base.

Hence this is why Coca-Cola Brand by itself is estimated to worth 50 billion to 70 billion USD.

 

Yep, exactly. Unless someone can explain this to me, it seems a bit like ignorant rich white people in an upscale neighborhood throwing a fit when a "black family" moves in next door. If the only complaint is essentially "well I just know that its there and it doesn't belong," then I guess I don't know how to get onboard with that.

Somebody, please, tell me how calling it the Thinkpad Edge instead of the Ideapad Edge changes my experience as a T-Series user in any way.

 

If you have been hanging around this forum and the thinkpads.com forum for a while, you'll see threads like "My latest thinkpad came with flexy keyboard, so Lenovo must be killing the IBM brand by lowering product quality". Now replace flexy keyboard with plastic chassis in the Edge, and you'll hear how Lenovo is a greedy corporation who cut costs, blah blah blah, all while the T, W, and X-series still use magnesium alloy chassis.

 

It doesn't affect people who hang around these forums, but it affects people who is dipping their toes into new territory with Thinkpads. Imagine somebody who buy the Edge as a introductory to Thinkpad, and discover that it is no different from typical Best Buy laptop, do you think he'll ever buy Thinkpad again.
I am in no way frustrated at Lenovo's decision, but they should be prepared for any consequences that is coming to them.
Also, if Lenovo tests the water and see that the Edge is well-received (since it is quite cheaper than other Thinkpads, and people have heard of long lasting Thinkpads, which the Edge isn't, due to cheap components and construction) they'll start applying these changes to the main Thinkpad lines. Sure, it may not affect you this generation, but it will a few more years down the road.

 

Yes, a lot of home users with limited background/knowledge might be tempted to get a "ThinkPad". I am ok with the X100e because it fills up a market segment but SL and Edge were a mistake.

 

Exactly, the same people who think every ThinkPad is from 1995, i even get that response when people see my T61p, but i just fire up Dirt2 and let them play it for a while . My ancient history teacher actually commented on my T61p, i told him it was 2008 and he was like "REALLY? this is from 2008?". I laughed.

 

i think as long as they keep the rollcages and thinklights and awesome keyboards and just plain durable-ness and spill resistant keyboards and hdd shock resistance, and awesome battery management, then a little sleeker design is fine, i love the look of the T400s

 

The new thinkpads aren't bad, look at their price vs quality, a little flare isn't a bad thing, especially when it's optional.

Not offering anything besides glossy lids is a turn off, however. Full out metal roll cage isn't even necessary for most people anyway - so offering cheaper models without it isn't a big deal.

And they have kept the same full-size keyboard (or now it's close enough anyway)

They aren't poorly built laptops, they are cheaper variations of the brand - it's not like they don't offer more expensive and more traditional thinkpads.

 

Initially I was going to reply strictly to your original question, and try to explain the compromise Lenovo has made by its extension of the "Thinkpad" name to lower quality machines. Frankly I think you're playing devil's advocate or just dense to not understand how liberally using the Thinkpad buzzword to sell units which don't meet the traditional standards of quality established by "classic" models is problematic. Granted, if the latest iterations of the T, X and W series are up to par, then the experience of using them will not be affected by this marketing decision. My suspicion, and I think the concern of many people who have bought Thinkpads in the past is that this move by Lenovo to win market share by trading on Thinkpad name recognition, to sell inferior machines hints at their willingness to compromise on quality in general. This has implications for the core Thinkpad models.

Unfortunately your next example about rich white people reacting to the new black family on the block is more ignorant than your initial question. There are material differences in quality between the classic Thinkpads and the "Thinkpad" Edge. This relationship doesn't carry across to your racial example.