IBM vs. Lenovo

I know this has probably been asked several times already, but I wanted to see the current status of things now that Lenovo has had time to get settled. Hows the quality of the newer T410 and T410s compare to IBM. I had a x41 (Lenovo) made and it was noticeably worst than the x31 (IBM made); although I did get a tablet version of the x41. Is this something I should still expect from Lenovo, I've been eyeing the T410s and it sure does look pretty. Another question how well does the T410s run under Linux?

 

I wouldn't consider the X41 to be a Lenovo machine. The R60, T60, X60, Z61 are the last of the IBM ThinkPads. The quality ebbs and flows, for both IBM and Lenovo. Both my X200 and X200t have been excellent. Being here sort of skews the perspective. People here only post when there's a problem, which makes the problem seem larger than it is. If you like the T410 or T410s go for it.

With Intel and nVidia parts, the T410s should run Linux quite well, but you won't get the battery life without some effort.

 

I have a t61p which is identified by Zaz, to be lenovo and the build quality is excellent. I have no data on the newer models.

Renee

 

Both my T61, and X301 has been beyond fantastic. VERY happy with both models.

 

Despite some teething issues, my R400 has also been excellent.

 

This.

I currently have an x200t and x41t, and the build quality feels more or less the same. I also owned an x61t for about a month, and that too was comparable. On the flip side, I've felt that my friend's T43 and T400 are both a little flimsier...

 

The X4x series was arguably the last series designed solely by IBM employees. The T6x and R6x series are *not* IBM ThinkPads, as manufacturing didn't start until after the acquisition was complete (and thus all units were produced by Lenovo.) The design may have been started before the acquisition, but Lenovo employees definitely were part of the design process.

Indeed it will. If my T410 is any indication, it should take about 5 minutes to set up the necessary power-saving tweaks. It's not at all difficult, and battery life under a modern distro is pretty darn close to what it is in Windows; there is no appreciable difference between Windows 7 and Debian Squeeze on my machine.

As far as the difference in quality between Lenovo and IBM, I'd summarize it as this: IBM's ThinkPads had far better fit and finish (i.e. lower tolerances, better QA) than Lenovo's, but had numerous examples of severely-flawed designs (T2x RAM slots, T4x GPU flex). Lenovo has made improvements to ThinkPad durability (most notably the "roll-cage"), but has certainly turned out quite a few "cheap feeling" machines.

All that said, I can provide some (completely subjective) data:

I've had a number of ThinkPads: the 750c, 600, 600X, T43p, T60, X60s, X61s, X200, X200s, X300, T500, and the T410.

- Of these, (and only after shimming it with some thick stock paper), the T410 has the best keyboard. Yes, really. (The NMB and Chicony T60 keyboards come in at a very close second.)

- The machine that has the best fit-and-finish is the X300, but it *was* something of a niche product.

- The "cheapest-feeling" ThinkPad I've had was the X200s. It felt quite flimsy -- so much so that I posted a rather vitriolic commentary about it over at ThinkPads.com -- yet in actual use proved to be quite durable.

- The sturdiest-feeling ThinkPad was the 750c. It also shared both the weight and thickness of a brick.

- If I were to compare the last of the "true" IBM ThinkPads (the T43p) to the most recent Lenovo ThinkPad, I'd have to say that while the T43p's fit-and-finish is better, I feel more confident (ab)using the T410. It feels quite solid, and with the sole exception of direct, heavy pressure on the lid, I am quite confident that it can survive rough handling. The T43p, on the other hand, I know to be very vulnerable to both torsion and heat.

---

How's that for some rambling thoughts on the matter?

 

I've used pretty much every T-series(with exception of the T61 range) from the T21 to the T400/500, and the X-series from the X60 to the X200.

The fit, finish, an durability on all three of my Lenovo TPs are impeccable, except for a bit of keyboard flex on my T400 which my new T500 doesn't seem to have. More of an internal reinforcement issue as I swapped out the T400's keyboard to the T500 and it feels great. In my opinion they're as good as the earlier IBM systems, and the same design team that made the IBM ones still makes the Lenovo systems.

They're all solid systems and I especially like my new T500. It feels like a tank, but for its size class is fairly thin and not all that heavy. A wonderful system, if I say so myself.

 

Indeed. I only have moderate experience with IBM laptops (I've never used one as my primary machine), and considerably less with Lenovo, but it does vary. My father works at an IBM/Lenovo-only enterprise with thousands of ThinkPads, however, and has told me that the T400s there have a reputation as considerably less reliable than the old T60 series, whereas the T410s, at least thus far, don't have a poor reputation for reliability. The T4x also had a reputation there as less reliable than the T20's. I haven't heard much about the T61, so I'd assume its reputation is better than the T4x or T400.

 

Quality wise, the T4x0s is very similar to the X3x laptops.

 

Probably could use it as one, too, and it would still be holding when the real bricks around it crumbled to dust.

I had a 755Ce that I lugged around for a couple of years. Other than the mouse buttons, the thing was built like a tank (and weighed almost that much, too). I bounced it off the floor more than once with no ill effects.

 

While it's true the T43, the X3x, the R52 and the Z60 were being sold when Lenovo took over, they don't start designing them five minutes before the new platform comes out. The new machines had to already have been on the board. The T60 et al weren't really a radical departure from earlier ThinkPads. Lenovo's not going to walk in the door and make wholesale changes right away. For those reasons I think the T60, R60, X60 and Z61 are really the last of the IBM ThinkPads. I think most ThinkPad enthusiasts would agree with me. Also it was the same people designing them anyway, regardless of whether their paycheck said IBM or Lenovo.

 

It sure looks pretty, doesn't it? The T410s runs well under Linux, or specific to my knowledge, Ubuntu 10.10.

However, the T410s is limited with respected to battery options. The main battery sits in front of the laptop, underneath the palm rest. One may add an Ultrabay battery (in lieu of the optical drive), but the two batteries together only last for a total of 3.5 hours on average (observable under both Windows 7 and Ubuntu 10.10), and the BIOS is programmed to always drain the Ultrabay battery before switching to the main battery.

You may want to take a good look at the T410 also.

Quality has been fairly consistent, in my experience since the A and early T models up to now. Finally, it is encouraging to note that ThinkPads are much more affordable these days, and many consumers (as opposed to corporations) are buying them for personal use.

 

The big black plastic label on the bottom of my T43p (a later production) says "Copyright 1981-2005 IBM Corp. Copyright 2005 Lenovo. Manufactured for Lenovo. Made in China." At the same time, early productions of the T60 still had the tricolor IBM logo on the lid and on the palm rest.

So, the transition period was fairly long, and I agree with ZaZ: it's not like IBM handed the design completely to Lenovo at one specific point in time.

 

People never see this. You're getting a ThinkPad at half the cost of yesteryear or less. Had things stayed the same a lot of folks here with a ThinkPad wouldn't have one because they cost so much and people would complain about how expensive they are. All in all I'd say it's a pretty impressive achievement. People buy into this notion that IBM ThinkPads never had any issues. They either don't know the brand well or they're choosing not to remember the pain.

 

Yeah, the R/T60 series were almost certainly designed mostly by IBM, but I have it on fairly good authority (two different former IBM employees, one somewhat involved with the PC division) that they weren't exclusively designed by IBM engineers.

That said, they definitely have a clearer IBM lineage than the modern ThinkPad series, both inside and out.

It was a lot shorter than many people think (a *huge* number of non-geeks think that IBM made the T60-series.) Lenovo retained the rights to use the IBM logo for up to five years after the acquisition officially took place, but IBM was *well* out of the picture in all but name by 2006. IIRC the T4x series was produced entirely by Lenovo, at first under contract for IBM and later when the PC division was under Lenovo's ownership.

Just wondering, but do you mean the X3x series, or did you mean the X30x series? (I ask because while I have one of the latter, but I lack an example of the latter -- and since I'm interested in the T4x0s series I'd like to know what I should compare it to. )

 

A huge number of people still think IBM makes Thinkpads. I was talking with someone the other day about Lenovos, and he had no clue what I was talking about until I mentioned Thinkpads - at which point he asked whether I was talking about the "black laptops IBM make."

 

All the ThinkPads owned by all the people who contributed to this thread aren't even a shred of a proper sample size to qualify an opinion about build quality trends. These build quality threads/discussions all end up the same way. Anecdotes of some are good, some are bad. Probably 90% of the ThinkPads coming out fall within some acceptable range of build tolerances, and the rest aren't up to our geek-perfect standards (example: I'm really pissed that my palmrest isn't symmetrical. It's lined up 1mm further back on the left. Lenovo should send me a new CTO). Caveat Emptor, you get the laptop that comes out of the box sent to your house. It's cheaper than it used to be, so we should be happy, otherwise like mentioned earlier most of us wouldn't be in ownership of a ThinkPad.

 

I am saying quality wise, the T4x0s is very similar to the X3x (i wasn't talking about the X30x, which was the predecessor to the T4x0s design and construction method).

Regarding, whether IBM or Lenovo made the Thinkpads, is quite trivial. The important thing is how the company focuses on innovation, build quality and staying faithful to the old thinkpad design.

This is like people lamenting the transfer of ownership for Jaguar/Land Rover from Ford to TATA...

 

I owned IBM's ThinkPads T40, X31, and X40. I loved them all. Then I "upgraded" to Lenovo's ThinkPad X61. It was bulkier than the X40 and really buggy. It didn't feel like the premium laptops I previously owned...

I then tried the Lenovo ThinkPad W500 and that was the crappiest of all things. I got really disappointed and fell ill for some time. After a year of suffering with a Sony VAIO I decided to go back to ThinkPads regardless of how bad they've become because everything else out there sucked. 2006-2008 were a really bad couple of years for laptops.

So, several months ago I got my hands on a Lenovo ThinkPad T410...And, to my surprise, it's the best laptop I ever owned. The keyboard and TrackPoint on this machine are AMAZING and it's a great laptop all around!!

 

most of mine friends find the W500 and T500 better than the T510, W510, T410 in terms of overall feel. When you say X61 was buggy, what do you mean? is it software or hardware?

 

Better than the T410?

 

It terms of fit and finish... personally i think they are about the same during the few days of use i got out of the T410 and W510.

 

My X61 was custom-to-order. I had Intel Turbo memory and XP, which is a worthless combination.

At the time, Vista was out and software development was probably focused on the new OS. So, my X61 software was buggy...but also the hardware felt...just...not right...

I still remember unboxing my first ThinkPad T40 and being surprised by how thin and beautiful it felt and looked.

I was looking forward to a similar experience with the X61, but in unboxing the X61, I was confused...It took me awhile to admit to myself that the laptop actually sucked.

 

The NBR review of the T410 reports screen flex on the upper left side. Does this mean that the entire lid of the T410 is weak? Can it sustain minor knocks and brushes - like for example the ones experienced when rushing through airports and boarding crowded trains and buses?

Did these kinds of issues affect really old ThinkPads - the ones designed and manufactured by IBM?

Edit: Nevermind! I read through some of the post after the NBR review and there is a brief discussion on the replacement of the metal frame with a lightweight plastic structure. The reviewer says that overall the machine remains sturdy, which would probably take care of the airport and train scenarios.

This also probably answers the question regarding the IBM-era TPs. If they had the metal frame, they were probably a bit more sturdier.

 

T30 thinkpads did not have magnesium casing, it used carbon fiber reinforced polymer for both the screen case and the bottom case.

T4x screen casing maybe strong, but their bottom casing without the magnesium rollcage is prone to flexing when carrying it by the corner with the screen open. This is what causes the T4x famous detaching GPU and Southbridge problem, and the structural weakness was addressed by the T60 with their internal magnesium rollcage.

 

Perhaps flexing on the left corner is bad assembly fault?
At least in my R400 it is considered to be as such and will be replaced within warranty.
Sure there is rollcage in R400, however perhaps there goes something else and thats why some experienced such problems?
Just a wild guess

 

On the R400, yes. On the T410, from what I have been reading, probably not.

 

that's actually incorrect.   the T30 used titanium composite in the top cover and bottom case.

CFRP wasn't introduced until the T40.   the T40 used a magnesium alloy cover and titanium-reinforced CFRP base.

 

This is true.

In the current models, the plastic feels thinner/cheaper and the palm rest tends to "squeak" when the palms press on them during normal work. My colleagues and I have tried to tighten the screws underneath (which were not tightened), but that didn't help.

Overall, though, they continue to be solid workhorses.

 

I just recently got my T410. I still have a T61 that I use frequently. Overall, while I like the feel and build of the T61 better, the T410 is better than most laptops I have used including several Dells (D630, M4500, M2400, M6400). The screen on mine has almost no flex. The palm rest is very solid. In fact, due to the T61 having a separate palm rest and thinner plastic for the speakers, it has more squeaks. The T410 though has a lot more ports than the T61 did. So far, I have little to complain about the T410.

Also, as a counterpoint, I had a T61 that got dropped maybe two feet onto carpet. It landed on its bottom with the screen closed. When I opened it up, the screen had cracked. I was VERY surprised by that. It probably landed somewhat oddly or something, but it shows that even a T61 is not invincible!

 

Top case says CFRP (actual photo of my broken T30's top case)



Bottom case says CF-RTP (in plastic industry, CF-RTP means Carbon Fiber-Reinforced Thermoplastic, unless IBM used a different nomenclature systems and that T refers to titanium instead). TLP is also mentioned, not sure whether that is referring to the titanium reinforced polymer/plastic nor not.




P.S. TLP 1146 refers to the Poly[imino(1-oxo-1,6-hexanediyl)] polymer used in the CFRP.

 

straight from PSREF #268 (published in 2003):

"Case material: Titanium Composite in the top and bottom covers for enhanced strength"

 

well, i am not sure what to make of it, since my actual T30 casing made no mention of titanium anywhere. Either my T30 is different, or IBM actually changed the construction material at the end of the T30's lifecycle. My case have the build date of aug 2002 (top case) and sep 2002 (bottom case).

 

given how brittle T30 cases were, i can almost guarantee they contained titanium.   plus, IBM wouldn't have bragged about it if it were true.

besides, titanium composite isn't solid titanium.   something has to carry it.   my point is that it's not your average CFRP -- which would have been a lot stronger.   true CFRP wasn't available until later.

 

the bottom case is pretty brittle, i broke one when i tried to salvage a working motherboard from an old T30. The top case is rather flexible, maybe the amount of titanium used were different.

 

be glad you didn't buy one new in 2002 and learn that the hard way.   my T30 wound up in service three times before i sold it and bought an A30p.

 

I got both of the t30 second hand for free, one had a screen problem and another one had the dimm problem. They were such a pain to pull apart and now I can't put them together because I misplaced couple of the parts. These machines must take at least double if not triple the assembly time compared to say t60, and the no. Of sub parts Are mind boggling (but still lot better than the compaq laptops of that era) No wonder they were so expensive, as compared to the lenovo thinkpads.