Holding on to 'end of era' Thinkpad's

I was originally planning on selling my X220 after getting the T440s. But between the keyboard layout changes and now the deleted trackpoint buttons and indicator lights, I know if I sell it I won't be able to get another new one like it. It's incredibly good at everything, except having a smaller screen than I need for my last year of college away from a monitor. It's the end of an era, and I'm glad they at least went out with a homerun that's the X220. Anyone else on holding onto their Thinkpad's?

 

The lack of hdd led indicators on new thinkpads are making me think about buying a T530 and change display to a FHD. So that will be my last until something change, if that change ever happen.

 

I still have a X220 that I carry around everyday but I have bought a T430 for more CPU-intensive stuff. Looking to get a T440s/T440p (depending on prices?) as kids are demanding their own machine now.

I know the traditional keyboards vs the new ones is a hotly debated topic and will probably remains so, but having used both for about one year I like the new ones better, as the one on X220 has become loose.

 

Get your kids an Edge or X131e, we need to leave the manly-machines to the men.

 

Roughly 85% of the ThinkPad users/devotees that I know...

 

I'm definitely holding on to my current ThinkPads. The new ones might as well be Acers or HPs. Looks like I'll be using the old ones for a while--hopefully there are more options out there that actually fit my needs when I eventually upgrade.

I don't think many people are complaining about the quality or the chiclet style of the new keyboards. Those both seem to be fairly well-received. It's the neutered layout that kills it. If you don't use insert/delete/pg up/pg down, num lock, or those sorts of "power user" things, I imagine the new keyboard's just fine. For those who appreciate those feature, though, it's a huge loss.

 

I'm of the belief you shouldn't discount something just cause it looks bad going in. You might miss something you'd really like if you don't try it. I'd love to use one of the new ThinkPads just to see if I like the new pointstick setup. It's just not worth it to me to spend that kind of money and have to pay the restocking fee if I don't like it. Plus, my X220i is more than meeting my needs right now.

 

The older Thinkpads are not only affordable they are fairly easy to troubleshoot, repair, are well documented, and have a substantial community of users. That is what makes the ThinkPads attractive to me

@Yuxie. Seriously??? Some of us girls like ThinkPads too. Don't be stingy!

 

Amen.

My wife has been an avid ThinkPad user since mid-90s, and anyone who thinks that I've blown a gasket and over-reacted when the new keyboard layout was introduced hasn't spoken to her...the only difference being that she doesn't participate in forums, so I got to hear it, as did some of her old buddies at IBM who got cursed out for the umpteenth time for selling the brand to Lenovo...

How bad was it?

Torches, pitchforks, tar and feathers come to mind...

Hell hath no fury...

 

I think I be keeping my old ThinkPads for a while, never been a fan of the chiclet keyboards though I could just about live with that. But the fact they killed off the dedicated trackpoint buttons and used the trackpad instead - oh dear.

My biggest complaint when using Trackpoints from other manufacturers is that their buttons are too shallow for it to be used comfortably in longer periods (like my previous Dell Latitude E6410). The older ThinkPads had raised edges on the buttons which helps register clicks more easily and comfortably. The new trackpad however will most likely be flat throughout and I'm not convinced its going to be as comfortable to use compared to the older generation ThinkPads.

Plus I absolutely hate using trackpads with a passion - they seem to have a mind of their own with scrolling and drag + drop in my experience. It makes me a bit sad that I may have to find an alternative brand for my notebook needs in the future, the new Dell Precisions is probably my next port of call if I had to get a new notebook now as funnily enough their notebook designs for their business range is the most consistent of late!

 

Did any one know or ask Lenovo that why they can't keep the old keyboard/real button as a option?

Don't think that will raise much tech or financial problem imo? I mean it is only 3 parts? Touchpad, palm rest and keyboard. And they use the same parts for same form factors.

 

Heard the X240 spec/hardware upgrade capability is not that great for 2 gen ahead. I definitely keep the X220. I am fond of the X series but not liking the trend. Probably no more X series for me. If the brand does not offer what I want, I go to an alternative brand. Kind of simple really.

 

The old keyboard layout would require a different BIOS from the new one. Not that it would be a biggest of deals...

I'd venture a guess that they simply don't care to offer such an option - or a set of options if you will - since they're trying to compete with Apple which is really not known for offering too many options...

There's got to be a serious push from the top for such a direction to be taken...no engineer in their right mind would go into fixing what was not broken and a *huge* part of the brand's trademark...

 

I've recently played with one of the new Trackpoint with integrated buttons on what I think is a E series Thinkpad (it has rounded edges). It was on display at a shop. My first impression was that there is something missing "down there" where the trackpoint button used to be. Just feels unnatural.

I think the main problem is now that the whole touchpad/trackpoint buttons is now flushed with the palm rest, so your thumb will have to click down further than usual. Whereas on a Thinkpad with trackpoint buttons, the buttons are raised slightly.

Oh and the click on the touchpad feels kinda of cheap.

 

I'm just going to keep my T61 running or upgrade to a T420s at some point unless I'm able to try out one of the new ones (e.g., with a no-restocking fee promo). I would love to have a better screen, but I can keep living with the 1440p version I have now.

 

Of course. I'm using my X220 until it dies. And as long as their design isn't reverted back to a proper keyboard & trackpoint, I won't buy a Thinkpad ever again.
HP or Dell's business lines will get my money. Funny how the tables have turned.

 

Yeah, between you and me, that's true. But I don't think Lenovo pay much attention to individual customers like us. They negotiate large contracts to supply thousands of notebooks to corporate employees who have no say in the selection process. I was once one of those employees. For example, do you think Wake Forest University faculty members and students can opt for HP? Sigh.

 

Different layout, I guess. The new one lacks one row.

As of the trackpoint button, I have T420 and I should say the buttons literally look nice but they are also flush with the trackpad. Also worse because of the groove, you have press deeper.


ps. If you think about it, now that they introduce integrated trackpad, why don't they bring back 7 row keyboard? Chiclet or not, old layout do rocks

 

Just like everybody else, I'm certainly holding onto my two older Thinkpads. I've had my hands on a few of Lenovo's new keyboards, like on the W530, and while I might be able to get use to the island-style keyboard (though I would bitterly), the layout that they used was completely off (for example, PrtSc was near the arrow keys. What the hell?). The new trackpads and the TrackPoint system looks completely off to me. Yes, functionally they are the "same" as the traditional Thinkpad TrackPoint, but having the TrackPoint buttons completely integrated in the trackpad (as in the W540, for example) just looks like a disaster to me. Personally, I'd much rather have separate left/right/middle buttons for the TrackPoint than to integrate them into the trackpad.

Even ignoring the changes made in the new Thinkpads' input (keyboard, mouse, etc), which personally I will call "bad" and "too consumer-like", I still wouldn't even replace my current Thinkpads simply because they just work(!), so why bother? Hell, I recently loaned out my W520 to my little brother for the fall and now I use the X61t as my primary laptop, despite it being ~6yo and counting. It's freaking awesome when it comes to taking notes in class, and it also serves as my main programming machine as well (due to my school using Linux for CompSci).

 

I'm holding onto my T420s and X220, and might pick up a nicely specced W520 now that the prices are coming down. I've used an x1 carbon at work, the build quality is great but the keyboard layout is just messed up. If all you do on a laptop is check your email and surf the web it's probably fine, but for the rest of us it's a big step back. Now that we've even lost the trackpoint buttons, there is no telling how the interface feels (nobody has a *40 yet around here) but I'm guessing it is terrible.

 

Of course, we're talking amongst non-corporate users here.
The bread and butter of the Thinkpad line has always been the large companies... until now?

Because given Lenovo's Apple-esque trajectory, they seem to sense that the traditional design & ergonomic boundaries between individual users and company users is rapidly blurring (I'd say levelled down, but that's just me), so might as well please the XL trackpads-, chicklets keyboards-fed masses whilst retaining some enterprise-specific feautres. And dilu... be less restrictive with the Thinkpad labelling.

Lenovo is shifting all its efforts towards the trendy masses, and even the traditional Thinkpad bastion has to go. The successive and substantial modifications of highly effective and symbolic Thinkpad landmarks, such as the keyboard and trackpoint, proove it better than anything. People never complained about those, as opposed to the poor screens. Yet, guess where Lenovo choose to focus its efforts? That's right, the chicklets and the XL-touchpad-semi-trackpoint combo. Oh, and the 16:10/16:9 format before that - but rumours have it that it couldn't be helped, since it was a move initiated by LCD manufacturers. Okay, they've thrown a bunch of IPS screens too, but nothing revolutionary.

Is Lenovo tailing Apple necessarily bad? The company was ready to ditch the traditional Thinkpad strongholds, so they were probably pissing their pants at the prospect of a major paradigm shift in the market (an influence of their smartphones/tablets division?), and thought that they increasingly had to cater for the Apple-ised consumer. Maybe that will save them in the long run, or rather... buy them some additional time in the industry.
But if Lenovo isn't betting on the Thinkpad niche anymore, and goes more mainstream instead, that doesn't mean they will have an easier time. On the contrary. As time goes, their corporate customers' taste will also evolve, relax should I say, meaning they'll be more tempted to look elsewhere. After all, if Lenovo isn't any different than others, why keep buying their machines? After-sale services? Well, HP and Dell aren't half-bad either. And the increasing number of employees allowed to use their own machines won't be bringing Lenovos, ha ha, certainly not. That'll be Apple for you, or maybe Samsung or Asus.

So when Lenovo's market shares with the corporations and the masses erode, what will remain, to whom rely on? Who will act as their advocate and make their family and friends by their stuff, better than the P.R.? Us, the faithful? A good number of us, myself included, will still use their Lenovo branded computers... from before the "Apple route", or will simply have moved on. I.e. no more faith and no more sales (even the spare parts will be had on eBay).
This is what you get when you mess with us.

 

I dont know if this has being talked about before. But the corporate sector is starting to shift to tablets/hybrids. I think lenovo would be dead in the water if they continued to make 'corporate notebooks'.

I can imagine a lot of companies replacing their desktops with AIOs and replacing the notebooks with ultrabook/tablets for on the road presentations.

The current line seems to be targeted at Small business and freelance 'creatives'. And these people are traditinal Mac users.

With a shrinking market, i really don't think holding onto old formulas are a good idea..........

 

Thinkpads were for power users, and that segment is not going anywhere. Lenovo is going for the hipsters and creatives, and nobody is beating Apple at that game.

They could have kept a version for the power users and created a separate line for Apple hunting (isn't that what the whole ideapad/edge/twist/etc lines are for?), but didn't.

 

The executive directive was precisely that: Think vs. Apple.

(January 7, 2013) The announcement of the reorganization comes after an internal email message from Lenovo CEO Yang Yuanqing revealing the move was leaked to the Chinese media over the weekend.

In the message, Yang said the company discovered the Lenovo brand performed well in mainstream and low-end market segments, but that its "Think" brand excelled in higher-end markets, where it could compete with Apple.​

The playout should not be surprising: competition by imitation.

The Chinese company's Think brand comes from its 2005 acquisition of the ThinkPad PC business from U.S. firm IBM. Since then, Lenovo has risen to become the top PC maker alongside Hewlett-Packard, and analysts point to its ThinkPad products as a major factor behind its success.

The reorganization could be similar in approach to that of car maker Toyota, which successfully developed its luxury brand Lexus to tackle the premium market, said Bryan Ma, an analyst with research firm IDC. Lenovo, which was founded in China, has struggled to develop its brand in more mature markets such as the U.S. The ThinkPad brand, however, benefits from an established following.​

The ThinkPad products and the established following are being screwed.

 

Define a power user for me.

 

Yes, of course. Thats why they even have created an own line for that approach: The ThinkPad S-Series. Every other ThinkPad line is not meant to directly compete with Apple (well, ThinkPad Classic T/W/X/L). To modernize some things doesn´t mean the imitate Apple. The don´t imitate them in any way. ClickPads and Chiclet keyboards are a general trend in the Notebook space, as well as the 6-row layout. Besides the ClickPads maybe, these are not Apples ideas.

Its naive to think that the hole market is changing while one product line or brand won´t change at all.

If you are thinking everything except the Classic line is made to compete with Apple, you are wrong, sorry.

No, its not, but even this segment of the market is changing and it will continue to do so in the future. No changes Lenovo is making on ThinkPads now are laughable im comparison to the changes that will come in the future. The computer as we know it won´t disappear that fast, but it will change, thats sure.

Sorry, but that makes the hole idea worthless. Dell and HP are going a very similar way as Lenovo (just look at the Dell "Precision" M3800 or the new HP ZBooks). So, if you really want to protest against the developments in todays notebook market (or, Business notebook market), you should buy a Panasonic Toughbook or just buy older models.

The changes are good in my opinion. The time from 2008 - 2013 was really wasted for ThinkPads, because nothing changed at all, no innovations (stagnation in features and quality), and slowly, ThinkPads became worse. In the Lenovo forums on a similar topic, one member posted something that was right:"Whats really killing the ThinkPad is the bad quality". Thats something, Lenovo has improved since this year, compared to 2011 and 2012, where the quality of some models started to get worse. Now, finally, they start to innovate and move forward again, and to improve the quality. Maybe the changes won´t please all, but they are neccesary and the new ThinkPads are not worse than the old ones - the users just has to get used to the new layout (which is very easy after some time of use, with the new models it became it bit simpler because FN key seperation is back) and the new TouchPad, which still operates exactly like the old TrackPoint buttons, providing the same functions.

So, ThinkPads are not dead. They are more alive than they were 2 years ago.

 

A person who values function over form. Lenovo has worsened the user interface, and made it less efficient.

I think a good analogy would be from the camera industry. Pro level dslr's have dials and buttons for every setting, and they are all accessible without much or any change in your shooting grip. The further down the consumer ladder you go, the dials and buttons start to disappear and are replaced by unified input like touchscreens. The touchscreens might look "cleaner" to the end user and get the job done, but not with the speed or accuracy of the manual controls of the pro cameras. It is also cheaper to manufacture if you leave out the multitude of manual controls. This is where Thinkpads are headed, they are leaving the pro segment for the consumer segment and the pros aren't happy.

 

There is a difference between the camera industry and the notebook industrie. Basically, there are no "Business Cameras". Unlike the notebook market, the high-end segment is only for individuals and maybe people who buy them for their work, but for themselfs.

ThinkPads are not products meant for individuals. Sure, you can buy them. But they are made primarily for big companies. Most users in big companies are normal users at home (known as "cosumers"). They don´t care about certain things, as long as the notebook gets the job done. So I don´t think that these markets are really good to compare.

I don´t think the new ClickPad is cheaper. It is a very complex new design, that uses the same mechanisms as the normal ThinkPad keys. In contrast, cheapo-models like the IdeaPad S210 still have normal dedicated TouchPad buttons. So, you can see, Lenovo does not implement the new design because its cheaper.

 

Sony | Broadcast and Business Solutions

Just look at that adress, the "bbsc" I think atend to business cameras.

I think the oposite, maybe that desing cost lot of money, but at the end, if you use same desing for all their laptops (as they are doing) will be cheaper than ordering to two or more different manufactures, diferent desings for each laptop.

Also they remove the hdd/wifi led without any good reason just to make the production process cheap. Let's remember they are even removing then in Workstation machines, like the W540. I know some IT are going to dream thinking in lenovo designers (and not good dreams)

So for me lenovo are using this formula:

We sell less, we make cheap, we sale the same, we win more. Instead of listening to their customers or give real and good reasons to remove things that have been usefull and working for more than 20 years.

 

Yes, but you won´t order them in masses. Maybe you order 2-6 at one time, or 10-20 units at another (because these can be very expensive), but never 10.000 like some big companies do with Notebooks. Thats the difference.

Also, every user of such a camera is a professional user. Business notebooks, in contrast, are used by many people who are not programmers, IT-people or geeks, because they got them from their company.

They have two different versions of the same design, one expensive (rubberized glass trackpad, used on T/W/X and S) and one cheap (Mylar-Plastic, used on Edge, T440 without s or p and the L-Series). Generally you are right, but the cost for the materials should be equal or higher for the new design compared with the old design found in T430 for example. The design is complex:

Well, there is a reason for Lenovo: Most people don´t need or use them. Think if you were Lenovo: Why should you keep something that most people don´t use, if you can save some cents in the production? Thats not nice for the people who does use them, but it is "Business as usual", as hard as it is. I don´t like it either, but unless sometime in the future our economy systems will change, the same hing will happen again, again and again.

 

Well that is basically my point, Lenovo has plenty of laptop lines that can cater to the consumer or the generic business user. They've taken their top of the line "pro" laptops and turned them into consumer grade products as well, that's the problem. Now there is nothing for the pros.

 

The minimalist look of the new Thinkpads looks somewhat similar in its theme to Apple notebooks - very clean, slick and modern. Not sure if this is considered consumer grade or business grade but that seems to be the new design - at least on the "s" models. As far as there is nothing for the pros, I think Dell and HP have some interesting products in that direction.

I was just looking at the older keyboard design/layout/look and it looks great. This is coming from someone who was not a user of the old Thinkpad keyboards. Even I liked the look and feel of it (what little use I had of it), things like the blue enter key, back page, front page, etc. It looked like a very solid and elegant design. The new keyboard has excellent feel to it also so I would say they're both good. Also, I'm not a huge fan of the internal, built in batteries. And of course, the missing track pad buttons is something that is also not very helpful. However, since I have not used the larger trackpad, I can't comment on it. Maybe it'll be a better experience than the old? I guess it depends on the user.

Except for these things, the only that has changed is the look of the Thinkpads. They seem to be moving away from the boxy, rectangular design towards a new approach. The screens have gotten big upgrades. They also are lighter, which is not a bad thing. So, like most things, it's a mixed picture. Some improvements, some steps taken back.

 

Well, the question is: Are the new ThinkPads really "consumer grade"? I don´t think so. The differences in the build quality are obvious, as well as the differences when it comes to features. Were are the many consumer notebooks with Dual-Battery with one removeable, Magnesium-Carbon Fiber Rollcage design, DockingPorts, water-resistant keyboard (the newest version is really nearly 100% water resistant), TrackPoint (which is still there with all of its functions), easy maintainability (a major difference with Apple), Steel-hinges, the best keyboard in the industry (even if you don´t like the layout, the typing feel is still stellar), a lot of ports etc. pp. You really can´t compare them. Only because they modernized some outer design details like the keyboard and the TouchPad, they still are miles away from "consumer grade" (and even the modernized outer details are still much better than what you get on consumer Notebooks).

Lenovo now even returned to better, high resolution IPS screens, one field they were really lacking in the past years (the older ThinkPad screens tend to hurt the eyes, for example the T430u HD screen or the screen XGA of my IBM R50e that I am using now).

I don´t think that the productivity of the most Pros would suffer from the new design once they get used to it. Thats the one big difference compared to former ThinkPad releases: You now will have to get used to it.

 

I'd beg to differ, and severely so.

This period brought some of the best/most interesting ThinkPad designs we've ever seen, most notably X30* and W70* series.

One could argue that the stagnation period was between 2005-2008, when Lenovo was building ThinkPads pretty much solely based on IBM's legacy.

We also witnessed the return of IPS screens on X220. Proper workstation development in the form of W5*0 series. Etc.

But all in all, most of ThinkPads from the era that you're referring to were solidly built machines with no major issues apart from atrocious screen quality on some of them.

I'd love to know what type of data you're basing the above statement on.

Innovation equals being ahead of the pack, not merely following already present trends.

 

Yes, thats right. Maybe I should have written "2009-2012", because Lenovo tried some new things out with the 2008 lineup. But after the X30x Series and the W70x, new features and developments stopped. Until 2013, not much changed, only the X1 brought some fresh air, but failed because of some unacceptable flaws (mainly because of its Glossy TN HD screen and the lackluster battery life).

For the X220, Lenovo just used the IPS screen that was used with their X-Tablets (same screen as X220t). The costs were low, and other than wide viewing angles and good contrast, the screen wasn´t good either (unlike for example the AHVA screen used in the T440s, which also has a acceptable Resolution and a reasonable color gammut). Yes, the W5xx Series had a good development, but they didn´t change much after the W510. The screen was great in quality, but other than that, it wasn´t really better than the former W500.

But still, in small steps, the quality suffered. The speakers got much worse, there were more so called "design flaws" than before (just a small example: The speaker grill at the sides of the T-Series from T410-T430. They are just a failed design, as they pick up dirt and dust. There are many more examples, like the X220 display bezel, which started to "react" in direct sunlight), which also weren´t fixed in following generations. Some models like X220t/X230t had serious quality problems (parts falling of, the keyboard leaves scratches the screen etc.). The screens were bad, and the case-materials didn´t feel as good as they maybe did before. Sure, there were many good ThinkPads in this timeframe with overall good build-quality, but the problems were obvious and discussed in the Lenovo Forums the hole day.

Well, thats something the sponsor of the ThinkPad-Forum.de - Startseite stated. He is a local Lenovo Business partner and reseller, and he had some major problems mainly in 2011 and 2012 with the quality of ThinkPads, he had many returns from customers who had quality problems (scratched screens and keyboard, loose-parts out of the factory etc.). That changed in the last months.

Well, if you want to innovate, you first have to catch up with the others. But you are right if you want to say that Lenovo doesn´t bring things that are completely new to the market (which is also quite important in a developed market such as the PC market). But even small enhancements are important.

 

Well, quite a few folks were happy with that somewhat-2nd grade-IPS panel. It sure as heck beats anything we've seen on X series screen-wise previously, not including tablets.

Riddle me this: why would you change something that works well and is accepted by the userbase? Update, yes. Change, no.

That trend started in 2003 when the majority of production was moved from Mexico to China. End of story.

The last ThinkPads that had halway decent speakers were the A3x units, which went the way of dinousaurs a decade ago.

That's what forums are for: people complaining about this, that and the other thing. I've spent my fair share of time on Lenovo's forum over the past six years and responded to complaints about every ThinkPad model that I could think of...

Were there many legitimate complaints? Of course.

Were there even more submitted by people who were absolutely clueless on many different levels? You bet.

Dusting off my rather rusty German for sometime later tonight......I only read, never post...

Funny how IBM never had that problem...oh, that's right: the rest of the world was trying to catch up with them...:yes:

 

IBM didn't sell of the PC business because it was so so profitable or because they were near the top in market share. Say what you want, but Lenovo is now number one. Sales the next few years will be their redemption for whether or not these changes were right. Companies are in it to make money, not pander to fan-boys from 10 years ago (I'm one). I know a LOT of people that use work issued Thinkpad's. Not a single one uses the trackpoint; I'm surprised they didn't drop the buttons sooner.

 

IBM maintained an entirely different approach to the game, not necessarily the right one, and they had debacles of their own which I've pointed to thousands of times on various forums. With that said, the idea that the PC division was sold solely because of its lack of profitability is one of the biggest myths on the web.

Not really that difficult when one has a pretty much monopolistic access to the world's most populous martketplace.

I'm certain that they'll do fine. ThinkPads are not the biggest source of their revenue by any stretch of imagination, though.

As do I, with an entirely opposite experience.

Well, they were not going to go against Apple full speed ahead while Jobs was still around...

 

There's that argument again. Function and form can go together. Why do they have to be seperate. I dont think the current thinkpad are all about form. Just because 'the form' changed, it doesnt mean it was changed for the form sake, more often than not it was changed for function. Again, im someone who never cared for the trackpoint, so maybe that disqualifies me from having an opinion around here.....

Yeh.........im sure cannon sells a lot of its $10k camera bodies every year.

Seriously. If you think liking the trackpoint buttons somehow put you in an exclusive 'pro user' club..........Then quit your job rent a garage and start making your laptops.

Also. In what professional software do you use the trackpoint?

 

Exactly! I know a guy who uses the tiny tiny trackpad on the T43 or whatever instead of the trackpoint....Yes yes, we are all stupid and not pro enough.

go ahead lenovo. Please continue to make the stupid masses happy.

It's the same crowd that says their T61 doesn everything they need to do better than the new thinkpads..........Im sure lenovo really want to cater to that crowd.

The only complaint i have about the new thinkpads are the numpads............I think lenovo listened too much to the vocal few who wants that feature.

the funny thing is we are all talking as if the trackpints are gone! the bloody things are still there. Just that the buttons have been integrated to make the trackpad bigger! Great design move in my books. but ok im stupid because i dont use the trackpoint.

 

You know. The irony is part of the reason why lenovo kept the trackpoint was probably it's iconic 'IMAGE" or form as you would have it. It simply looks cool and link people to its glorious past. Not because it was a particularly useful function. Again im just a stupid sheep who doesnt use the trackpoint so dont take me seriously.

 

Soon enough they will be gone altogether IMO. Matt Kohut threw a bait a couple of years ago here:

Time to give up TrackPoint? - Perspectives - Lenovo Blogs

I guess that the higher-ups saw the lynch mob around the corner and let the trackpoint live for a couple of more years, albeit crippled...but it's on the death row and its demise is a matter of "when" and not "if"...at least in my book.

TrackPoint vs. touchpad vs. mouse is a matter of personal preference. I prefer TrackPoint and disable the touchpad in BIOS on all of my ThinkPads. You are entitled to do exactly opposite. Nothing to do with being smart or stupid.

As long as both of us have the option of using one's preferred device in its unaltered form, all is well. However, that's no longer the case. Hence the anger amongst the TrackPoint users.

Personally, I don't care anymore since my days of buying ThinkPads are over. Unless, of course, Lenovo brings back the 7-row keyboard which is not going to happen.

 

I don't really want to go against the current trends just for the sake of it, I have to. I'm compelled to do something against my will (not upgrading) because of Lenovo in the first place, and the other manufacturers to a different extent.

This is why I said I would keep my Classic Thinkpad for as long as I can, and when the time comes, I probably won't be buying Lenovo again:
1) Because it would be very silly of me, since it would imply that I accept Lenovo’s Apple-ish policy and reward them both symbolically and financially for that. Not gonna happen any time soon.
2) Because seeing that Dell recently released the Precision M6700 which features a complete trackpoint, there is some hope that someone will offer what Lenovo has trashed. And if not, I'll just buy any brand except Lenovo (and Apple but that's for other reasons). That is, if Lenovo still exists by then.

Now you’re serving us the « new is better than old », « everything must change » arguments. Come on. I know you’re a Lenovo advocate but you can do better than that.
Yes, changes in quality were necessary. However quality is not necessarily tied to innovation; and innovation is not necessarily tied to revolution either. Which practically means that Lenovo could have upgraded the Thinkpad x20 generation with better materials and better screens – end of the story – and do whatever they want with their Lenovo-branded laptops (e.g. über island keyboards, touchpads as large as the keyboards, und so weiter…).

Users have to get used to the new layout? In my book it’s the hardware that must be adapted to users, not the opposite.
The new trackpoint perfectly illustrates Lenovo’s philosophy: make everything look « new », « modern », since new is better than old. Looks over function. Those who beg to disagree will have to suck it up. And anyways, it does exactly the same functions as the classic trackpoint, so what are you all ing about? Yeah, on the paper that is. Just like on the paper North Korea is a democracy.

 

IBM sold the PC business because it was no longer in the growth phase, and it was no longer worth keeping for the kind of return they were getting from it. If you follow IBM PC business, you would find that they sold off much of their peripheral businesses, so basically they divested from the PC business long ago. They sold their LCD, printer, keyboard, hdd businesses, because they knew these technologies were getting commodised and there was not much return to be had from the business without investing huge marketing dollars.

IBM lost the PC game as soon as they made it open source and running on Windows OS (which they don't have the Copyright to). Apple know having open source and interchangeable parts will reduce your profitability, so they have their own OS and computer that is pretty much not upgradeable. They also made the smart move of moving into the Smartphone and Tablet business as the PC business got increasingly crowded.

As much as i wish Lenovo could innovate at IBM's pace, or have the latest technology within the PC industry, we have to understand that Lenovo's major source of revenue derives directly from PC sales, and they have to make careful bet regarding what they have in the PC/laptop. If Lenovo fails to make increasing profit, within a few business cycle then it would soon be out of business, as the shareholders will punish them on their share prices. This is the problem of public companies producing what essentially is a commodised product.

This is also why Michael Dell wants to have a leverage buyout of Dell, so that they no longer gets punished for investing in their own business, and don't have to justify the cost expenses of various R&D required to be an innovator. HP is also declining even though it has so many different business units outside of PC. I guess IBM saw what was coming, and decided to divest from this business when they were still ahead.

Finally, while i understand much of Lenovo's business logic, as a ThinkPadder i still have to fight for what i believe in, which is to keep ThinkPad's unique design DNA of having a great keyboard, upgradeability/serviceability, and Trackpoint that is actually designed for Trackpoint enthusiasts.

 

I think you mean the M6800. Anyway, the direction where Dell is headed is clear if you look at the M3800. They will move their Latitude line (and Precision too) completely towards the design of the XPS line sometime in the future (they have already started with the new Latitude 7000 Series). Also, Dell recently stated to include their cheap Vostro line inside the Latitude Brand (Latitude 3000 Series), they are doing something similar to Lenovo with the ThinkPad Edge.

Not to mention that the Dell Pointing stick itself still is much worse than the Lenovo TrackPoint.

I have no doubt about it. The question should be: Will Dell and HP still be in the PC business at that time? They are trying to copy IBMs way in some fields. In contrast, Lenovo seems to have a very good future as a major player in the smartphone and Tablet markets, fields where Dell and HP are lacking completly.

You are wrong, because I am not. I just have an allergy against some nonsense (like saying ThinkPads are now "consumer grade").

Really a great plan - not.

- You are sugarcoating the Yx20 Generation - it wasn´t that great, even with better screens and case materials it would not be that great. I have an T420 here at home, I can see it the hole day - they have many design flaws. A 7-row keyboard means nothing if the Notebook is just badly designed like for example the T420 or the X220 also in some way (the W520/T520 not so much - but these ones are still using the chassis of the W510/T510, unlike T420 and X201).

- Do you really want to sentence the ThinkPad brand to death? It sound much like that., because you are basically suggesting that Lenovo should stop doing anything and stay just in the cage that your beloved IBM made them. No innovations, no new features (isn´t that something many are crying for, innovation? Bizaar, many people want innovation, but they don´t want to get used to new things as well). ThinkPads would be niche products, not used by anyone than the so called "ThinkPadders", not mentioned by the press. Sorry to say, but that plan is just utterly stupid and illusionistic. We are not living in a stagnating world that stands completly still, as much as some around here maybe would like to. What you are suggesting, would really be the "End of ThinkPad", it would turn a living Brand in a dead one. (P.S: That was the thing IBM failed: They don´t were willing to change certain aspects).

- On example: They tested the 6-row chiclet keyboards with the first X1 on the market. The feedback they got was fantastic, many users just loved the X1 keyboard, some also said "the best keyboard ever". Now, thell Lenovo a reason, why they should not use the same keyboard on all ThinkPads? Why?

In some cases, of course. This is one of this cases, because the hardware is adapted to the users - but not you, it is adapted to the average company user (who are the majority of ThinkPad users), who is already used to 6-row keyboards and touchpads. People wanted better TouchPads in ThinkPads - now they have got them.

Why should a product be designed for a minority rather than a majority? It just isn´t logical, especially in the todays version of the capitalism (which favors growth over everything else).

No, its not. The new design has not much to do with looks, more with "bigger TouchPad area".

Its not looks over function. It is form and function. And that is something ThinkPads always tried to achieve (not pure "function over form"). The new design looks good (although this is highly subjective) and is functional at the same time.

Thats the question. Maybe about the time to get used to it? I don´t know. After all, it seems to be quite useable after some time, although it is clearly not better than the old design as many users stated.

Thats not what I said and meant, don´t twist my words.

Yes, absolutly right. Unlike many others here, I think giving them feedback is very important, because thats what the need at the end. What I don´t think is good is hating around without logic and to just write " Die in hell Lenovo, you ruined everything" or something like that Thats not useful, because they won´t change anything based on such posts.

Unlike others, I have no problems with old or new ThinkPads. I love all of them, wheter they are from Lenovo or IBM (and I love ThinkPads, not Lenovo! I would never recommend an IdeaPad or an Edge). :hi2: But I think the new leylayout is better, because for me it is more efficient having the Page Up/Down keys more near to the user, I just work faster. But as with many things, thats just mý lonely and own opinion.

 

Well, it assumes it's actually designed

May I ask a rethorical question? Why do some Thinkpads feature a (not particularly good one, actually) color calibrator built in, even though 99% of the "business/consumer/whatever" users have no use for one, and don't even know what they're missing. Apple laptops most certainly do not include any such devices. And to produce this option, it actually takes quite a bit of effort, with different palm rest assembly, different bundled software, updates to that software etc. etc. - lots of work really.

Now this color sensor, needed by a tiny group of users (myself and everyone I know who care about calibrating screens, all own another, standalone and better, screen calibration device), is included as option. "Why should a product be designed for a minority rather than a majority? "

Everybody would be happy if Lenovo did whatever they want, or whatever they see as future. Innovation is most welcome: inside, or cooling, or screens, or power supplies, or docks, or materials, or quality, or paint it bold pink if you must. But please keep the most important and conservative part of the user interface: keyboard and cursor navigation device stable. Something that people touch with their hands and something they develop muscle memory for. At least available as option, which in xx30 series, for example, was a piece of cake to do. A more expensive option, $100-200 option, if must be: conservators, not willing to go with the mass-production flow, who don't take screenshots too often and value physical Trackpoint buttons, must pay more, no problem. Does not require much of R&D either, especially in large 14/15" devices.

Nobody, particularly not Apple, changes keyboard layouts with every release, yet Lenovo now manages to have different keyboard layouts even in Thinkpads of the same generation, at random, and without any alternatives?

 

OK...if the new layout was created with "corporate" users in mind, how were they "used to" 6-row keyboard layout already IF they actually were using ThinkPads? Did they hang onto their 240 series since '99?

"Majority" and "minority" are awfully strong terms. I don't remember a census being held amongst ThinkPad users, ever...

Lenovo was given civil feedback in numerous (not all) posts - disagreeing with their crippling of the keyboard design - and never bothered even responding - so my take on it is that it's nothing but a waste of time.

 

I am actually confused by the original question. If you need just one computer and already have a T420/X220, it will last a long long time. Unless you want FHD IPS screen or more battery life, or a quad core in 14" form factor, or more mobility, or a hybrid computer. You hold onto T420/X220 just like many holds onto T60/X60.

On the other hand, if you want FHD IPS screen or more battery life, or a quad core in 14" form factor, or more mobility, or a hybrid computer, but you don't want to update because of the new keyboard? Does this make sense? All because of a keyboard ? It would make more sense if the new one were so bad, but I don't think it is that bad.

I notice that my kids prefer T430 over X220, they don't seem to care about the keyboards. They just like the slightly bigger screen.

 

It's not just your kids.

Anyone who is not a touch typist or severely accustomed to certain shortcuts and functions could very well prefer the new keyboard and find nothing wrong with it.

For folks who have been using the old layout for two decades or so the new layout - not the island-type keyboard per se - is a dealbreaker.

To put it into perspective: I'm a touch typist who uses two different "old" keyboard layouts for the two languages I utilize the most. Each of them is ingrained in my brain and has been for the longest time. Once I switch to thinking in a different language (only between the aforementioned two) the keyboard layout follows.


On a different end of the spectrum, I've been using Panasonic laptops - which I hold in highest of regards - since 2005 and can still type on them only with my eyes open which significantly slows the process.

My experiences only.

 

Interesting perspective.