Getting pressured to buy a Macbook instead of T61...

I've always thought of a Thinkpad as one of the ultimate portables and I'm looking forward to getting the T61 I've ordered. However, a friend of mine swears by Apple and is trying very hard to get me to switch! I've really considered a Macbook black (Can't stand the white, and Macbook Pro is out of reach for me, I'm afraid) but I can't bring myself to pay so much $$ for seemingly lesser hardware! I know they are good machines and that the OS itself is rock solid. They look good too.

I plan on using the new machine for daily email, reading news, keeping track of finances, playing occasional games, occasional DVDs. I don't travel much and I'm not a student. I'm a long time linux user, but all of my software is for Windows (MS Office, various older PC games like MOHAA, COD, FarCry etc.) I want it to last a long time, ie. I won't be upgrading until it completely dies.

I just don't see any pressing reason to get a Mac. I'm pretty much sold on the T61 and even though I know Vista will take a little tweaking once in a while, I actually *like* tweaking at least initially. The Mac on the other hand seems like such a "one size fits all" solution. (Heck, even the little "close/minimize/maximize" widgets in every window seem like they are on the wrong side and my buddy didn't know of any way to get them over to the "right" side!) (Not to mention the 1-button trackpad and mouse....) I also don't really have a need for all the bundled Mac multimedia SW, I only need something that will let me burn DVDs, and Vista Premium already has that.

I could actually get a refurb macbook black (previous generation) right now for $1050, but the T61 I've ordered for the same price has these added features:
- 3 button mouse built in
- 1440x900 screen (Same as in Macbook Pro)
- Somewhat better graphics (Intel X3100 vs. GMA 950)
- 40G larger HD
- Hot swappable Ultrabay
- Fingerprint reader (for logging into websites etc)
- Directly compatible with my existing SW (Office, games) without dual booting for messing with emulation/virtualization software.
- Expandable via Express card and PCMCIA

Anyone here have a Mac as well as their Thinkpad? Any comments?

My T61: 2GHz T7300, 1G RAM (+1G waiting at home), 160G 5400rpm, X3100, BT, Fingerprint, 14" 1440x900, camera, ABG wifi, will run Vista64

 

You hit the nail on head with a force rivaling those of gods. But there are more bullets that kill the Macbook- entire bandoleers of them.

Don't forget that at the same price, the ThinkPad would actually be new too.

If you get a Macbook but want to use Windows, you'll have to pay for Windows. Not to mention, you'll sacrifice a lot of usability because the keyboard is missing essential buttons (right CTRL, right ALT, DEL). You're also missing a second mouse button, and you'll have to adapt to those two-finger touchpad techniques. Moreover, Bootcamp still has power management issues and Macbooks have substandard battery life when operating Windows.

Why else is a Macbook bad? The edges will give you strange highs. (They'll nearly cut your wrists when you type and rest your wrists on them, if you didn't get the joke.) It comes with only 2 USB ports. It has a lower resolution webcam. The optical drive cannot accept mini optical disks, if you use them that is. You are limited to one size of battery. The USB ports are on the left side of the computer so connecting an external mouse will be a pain. The Macbook cannot connect to an external monitor without spending another $19.99 on a proprietary adapter, albeit the Macbook does of DVI while ThinkPad doesn't. You'll wish the Macbook had TrackPoint because TrackPoint allows you to manipulate the mouse cursor without ever having to move your hands from the keyboard. TrackPoint is infinitely more efficient to use than a touchpad.

ThinkPad is a function-first computer. Everything not necessary or obstructive to function comes second. The Macbook includes things that are obstructive to function- like its design of the edges. The black Macbook also is hell with attracting fingerprints.

I advise you to tell your friend all these things. Make sure you have a tinge of scorn for his investment in your voice. Then take a picture with your higher-resolution webcam of his face when he realizes how his Macbook is inferior to your ThinkPad. His posts on FaceBook will never be the same.

 

I heard the T61 does not have as high of battery life as the T60 does. In addition, the screen "off-centeredness" is more prominent. I would say to try for a T60.

 

What does that have to do with the Macbook comparison?

 

There are other laptops out there other than the MacBook and the T61. I was simply offering another alternative.

 

stick with the t61. that's not to say that the mbp isn't a good notebook, but for what you're using it for, the t61 would be better.

 

You're in a ThinkPad forum. Most of the answers you'll get will be to get a ThinkPad.

After playing around with a Black Macbook for several months, I felt the material was too cheap, too fragile, and gets too much finger prints. I prefer the build and style of the ThinkPads, but going back to Windows does kind of suck.

 

Instead of buying a macbook and bootcamp it, buy a Thinkpad and dual boot windows and OSx86.

http://www.osx86project.org/

 

I'd have to agree with that assessment. The MacBook isn't bad, but it will not offer the build quality of a ThinkPad. Plus it's heavy for a 13" notebook.

 

ROFTL! You brought up many great points. True, the T61 would be brand new, and no one likes buying last year's hardware.

As for the T60, I'm not considering it because I don't want a 15" screen. The off-center T61 screen doesn't bug me. I'm getting an ultrabay battery because of the recent price drops so I don't think the battery life alone will be a deciding factor.

 

Just like how Inspirons are for consumers, Macbook is also consumer grade. It's nothing close to the durable business class T61. Seriously. Even Macbook owners themselves agree with that. Obviously Macbook >> Inspirons, but it's not even in the same league as the T61.

Macbook Pro is comparable to the T61 in terms of quality, but personally I would rather get the T61 only because I will never use the extra features (like the 8600M GT video card, LED, etc) that make the Macbook Pro so expensive.

 

The OP was talking about the Macbook, not the Macbook Pro.


Also, do not let Apple zealots pressure you into believing that Apple products are a magical elixir where it will solve all of your problems. They have clearly been brainwashed by Apple marketing where they will ignore any problems with Apple products and pray to Steve Jobs every day. Ignorant people will do and say anything to try to fit in with their perceived in-crowd.

I would pick the Thinkpad as it is much more usable as a laptop. It is better to type on as it does not have hard edges on the notebook. I typed on my colleague's 17" MBP and my wrists had indentation marks afterwards. A person I saw typing on a MBP types with his wrists elevated so he can avoid the hard edges. That is a strange way to type on a keyboard compared to the textbook 45 degree arm angle method (the normal way to type).

Apple products are pretty good, but do not fall for the marketing hype.

 

You dont want to be one of them do you?

 

i owned and returned a macbook out of complete dissatisfaction. coming from an r60, i could not get used to the scratch prone shell, the 120 degree hinge, the sub par battery life, the lack of the trackpoint and right click, the 2 usb ports, and everything else everyone else mentioned. i really can't say enough about how annoyed i really was about the numerous faults that mb had. ESPECIALLY the scratch prone shell.

 

Theres a good article about macs on HardOCP

One of the real turn offs about OSX is that you would need to buy all the software you need straight from Apple, need a good word processor? You'll need to spend $80 bucks since theres no OpenOffice. Not much freeware for Apple.

 

Dude that's absolutely false. OpenOffice.org for Mac OS X can be downloaded here: http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/download/index.html

 

Mac's are way too trendy, all I see are 16 year olds surfing myspace on their macbooks. To me, a thinkpad looks more professional. Whenever I'm at a business meeting all I see are thinkpads. If someone whipped out a Macbook they would stick out. I honestly thought long and hard about getting a Macbook, but now that I bought the thinkpad, I wouldn't trade it for anything. It just doesn't make sense, if you like the OS, install OS X on your thinkpad.

 

Don't forget posting pictures of "sexy" actors from Grey's Anatomy on Facebook.

Honestly, I'd rather get an HP dv2500t than the CrapBook. More features, less money, similar build quality, better looking.

 

Hmm... I guess the article was wrong then they said there wasn't any word processor worth using,. I wonder how they missed OpenOffice for mac.

Well I know now to make sure and look next time

 

I really considered the dv2500t, one, because of the new gpu you can configure it, two, the tv tuner option, and three HP usually puts out a quality product, but damn, that touchpad is crap. One of the worst.

 

I have a bunch of friends that were bragging about their "sexy" macbooks, but holy crap those little machines get dirty! I wanted to play some music on a friends year-old macbook but the keyboard looked like someone blew their nose with it. I dunno what it is with these things, but ive never seen any other laptops/desktops that look so nasty from normal usage. If nothing else, stay away from macbooks for sanitary reasons. =)

 

They're great machines if you want to run a windows os...great benchmarks. They have some great engineering things about them such as the lite up keyboard but several things were overlooked for the sexy factor...god damnit apple make a right click...! Also the keyboards on the G4 macbooks rivaled the thinkpads in my opinion...now they look better but aren't as comfortable. And they suck at ventalation and battery life...again all at the expense of the "sexy" factor.

 

Light up keyboard is only available on the Macbook Pro.

 

Yeah if it was betwen thinkpad and macbook only, and I couldn't get a t 60, I'd probably go macbook. Not so much because of centered display, but display quality. The one they sent me was awful (viewing angles/light leakage). Most around here are fine with theirs though, so ymmv.

Depending on how important keyboard quality is to you, and how much you like the trackpoint, you might be better served with a thinkpad. I just know I've bought my last one, because even if they are offering flexview again in a generation down the road, customer service has burned me so many times, I will never trust lenovo again with my credit card. A slightly inferior keyboard and trackpoint will have to do next time around.

BTW I wouldn't let anyone "pressure" me into buying anything. You sound sold on the t 61- if you don't stick with that, you'll probably have regretes. And if you hate the macbook, you'll end up hating that guy lol.

 

I also once considered a Macbook because of its ease of use and the cuteness of those Mac stuffs . What made me change my mind and turn to Thinkpad are:

1. Glossy screen only.
2. It generates too much heat, it's said.
3. The keyboard is not so comfortable to use.
4. Rather heavy.

Software incompatibility is a negative but not a deciding factor.

When I read the articles advocating switching from PC to Mac, I was first persuaded, but at the end of the day when I come to think about my daily use of a laptop, many of the advantages they cite are really only remote theoretical factors to me, such as "although a Mac 'seems' more expensive, you can resell a Mac years later for much more $$$ than a PC" (heck, I'm buying a laptop to use, not to resell), "you don't have to worry about getting virus" (I've been fine using a PC for several years even without antivirus software updated--though recently I downloaded free antivirus recommended by the folks here).

I do find it strange that with all the nice features of an iMac (the big one), they can't make the keyboard more comfortable.

Still, the Macs are cute

And btw the off-centered T61 isn't much of a concern to me. I think I tend to look left a bit more, and this may help correct my eyesight

 

I sold my black macbook for a lenovo v100.

Pros of the MacBook:
Mac OS is 100% more reliable than Vista (re sleep, usability, battery)
Touchpad is better and two finger scolling is less burdensome on the hand
Touchpad is bigger
Right click is easily done by holding the apple key (in windows bootcamp, too)
International characters are very easy to type
Webcam much easier to use
Consumer friendly applications included
Battery lasted extremely long
Service is better than Lenovo's because you can go to the store.

Cons of MacBook:
No Office 2007 (which I love)
No fingerprint reader
Had many problems (random shutdown, screen)
Heavier

Cons of Lenovo V100:
Battery life for standard batter is 1 hour with Lenovo power settings in Vista
Lid touches keyboard and wakes up computer
Vista has sleep issues and crashes the computer (even with all updates)
The V100 is slower
The mouse buttons are terrible (but on most Thinkpads the buttons are great)
Service is so-so. Fast phone but not helpful for anyone with a brain.
Wireless turns on and off at random
Webcam software is below standard

Pros of Lenovo V100:
Cheaper!
Support my applications (I had Office for Mac)
You can install Putty and access Unix systems easily
Vista is much better with wireless support and mounting drives (akin to Mac)
Windows Mail is nice
Better keyboard
Power adapter is smaller
Has 5-in-1 reader

Conclusion:
Everytime my Lenovo dies because of sleep issues or because the startup is so slow I wish I had my MacBook back. The rest of the time I am very happy with the V100 and Vista. Of course, the T61 will arguably have different features, so your experiences might differ. Right now, I feel happy with the V100 but may switch if Apple comes out with a subnotebook for less than $1700. Hope that helps. I used to work for the main Microsoft nemises and spent all day with Solaris, Open Office, and various other *nix applications. Nevertheless, I feel happy and productive with the V100 and Vista (except when it crashes

 

jetcat33, is it true that your Macbook ran hotter than your Lenovo?

 

The T61's around $800 bucks are probably worth it. I've sent my first one back because of a multitude of problems that have been hashed-out on this forum. I had paid $1400 for it and wasn't worth anywhere near that amount.

The Macbook doesn't suffer from light leakage on the lcd panel, the bootup time is much faster, no BSOD's, and an integrated camera that functions correctly. Fit and finish is tighter on the Macbook as well.

Now that the T61's are around $800 vs the Mac's $1100, the comparison becomes tighter.

 

I bought a Black Macbook back in February and regretted it so much I gave it to my wife and have been using my new T61 14.1 as my main workstation. MacBooks are not bad though (they are significantly better than the old iBooks). I like Mac's (and I still love/use my 12 Powerbook G4" at least 50% of my notebook usage) but the quality of Mac hardware (IMHO) has gone down with the introduction of the Intel's. MBP's have their issues too. But there no question the better engineering and durability of Thinkpads. (this is my 3rd Thinkpad, BTW)

For me the bottom line should primarily be based on the OS. If you want to run Windows or Linux more than OSX go with T-61, if you need/want OSX, then go with the MacBook. For me it was simple since I wanted to run Linux most of the time. I continue to use my Powerbook for productivity apps and use the Thinkpad for development, VMWare server, etc.

 

No, the MacBook was hotter than my older 12" Powerbook, but my Lenovo V100 is 1000% hotter - i.e. close to so hot I might sue if I get a burn hot. But, of course, I can't speak for the ThinkPad - only the V100.

 

Quoted for hillariousness

 

I actually had a white Macbook, but returned it under warranty because of the discoloration issues with the palm rest. I was already worried that the laptop would dirty because it was white, but the disgusting brown all over the palm rest wasn't something else.

 

Macs are not more reliable...it's an argument based off no facts just opinions. I can't remember when the last time my dell crashed. PC's are designed to turn off when they have a problem...macs are designed to stay on and give you the spinning wheel of death. Both have their ups and downs.

 

In fact I would say that the macs I use crash more than the pc's i use...i just had one crash on me today.

 

If you have experienced more problems with macs crashing than windows, the problem might not be with the computer... I've experienced ten windows crashes this week. I experienced not more than two crashes with the MacBook I had for one year. Oh, and when my windows crashes, it sometimes turns off, it sometimes gives me the blue screen of death, it sometimes sits there and won't shut down, it won't wake up, it will give me the spinning ring, it won't turn on. The opinion that macs don't crash as much is not based on pure opinion. It's the manner in which the system maintains resources for each application. It's the way in which data is read from the disk and the manner with which Unix deals with system conflicts. If you think there's no truth to the stability of the mac (rather, Unix), you haven't gotten around enough. It drives me crazy how Windows people are blinded and think they are sitting on the top of the world. Sorry - now that's just my opinion.

 

According to everyone that owns macs, they have no problems with anything that the user puts at it. So it must be the hardware.

 

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You should definitely add that to the cons list.

 

Sorry, what was that?

 

10 windows crashes in a week? Holy crap. Maybe you should do a clean install, because I haven't had any BSODs since last year.

 

You're right. That should also be added to the Windows con list - "flaws or problems in the OS need to be fixed by reinstalling the entire system every few months."

 

My point is that that scenario doesn't happen to most people. And if it does happen to you, you're doing something wrong.

 

Ok so I am someone who owned an iMac and it was a beauty of a system but a desktop, I needed a laptop for my travels and it was either Macbook or Thinkpad. I ended up buying a new T60 14 inch with standard screen and nice specs, etc.Here are the things I noticed:

The Thinkpad keyboards even if it is Chicony are just better and make it a nicer experience. The screens are slightly bigger and clearer for me to see, I also wanted matte finish as the glossy looks like something so reflective I could shave in it. It's just a pleasure to use for longer periods of time than the macbook I found.

My thinkpad is really nice. Faster hard drive, 7200 RPM and more ram and all for a great price with a friend's EPP discount. And because my system is faster (2 ghz 4mb cache) than my wife's also really nice T42, I must admit it is a little hotter on my lap than expected but still not unbearable like I was feeling the macbooks to be.

I was concerned about the switch to XP and while there were some crashes and learning curves I've got the system running quite well. But I actually got a kick out of tweaking it to make it work better, I'm still learning as I go and this forum has been great.

So I am actually someone who switched back from Apple to Windows. Yes, I think that apple os is more solid but I like the way office and web pages look on my thinkpad, I am am happy with the security chip and some thinkvantage features like private disk, and overall very happy with the investment.

One thing to keep in mind. I got lucky, my T60 works and I don't see any hardware issues. But I ordered online for the first time and was taking a chance. I also made friends with a Lenovo sales rep and he personally would help me when I needed things. But if there were problems I couldn't just take it back to a store and get apple to deal with it. In the past Apple has been great if I needed servicing, I would walk it right into the Soho store and they would give me a whole new ipod etc. and this was regular warranty.

Well not sure if I helped but I guess what I am saying is Apple OS was not the end all and be all, it is better but there were hard ware reasons and XP Pro worked well enough that I am ok, even if it is does ocassionally crash (admittidely something I wasn't used to with my iMac).

Good luck

S

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6

 

I haven't owned an XP system before but I would assume that as long as you kept using CClean to keep the registry clean you wouldn't need to reinstall the whole system a few months down the road?

 

I dont know, I rarely need to reinstall XP. Last one was like 6 months ago whenever I upgraded hardware. As long as you dont sign up for all kind of free Xbox 360's and iPhones, you'll be fine using windows. Its the idiots that have no virus or spyware protection that should be on a mac.

 

It's fair to say that people who don't know how to use computers are people who have problems with Windows.

 

Yeah not to jinx it but I've been surprised at how manageable windows has been so far. XP at least.

 

I have had 10 years of experience with both Apple & IBM (now Lenovo) Laptops as my main computers. I have owned 8 new PowerBooks before they renamed them to MacBook Pro, of which I've owned 2. In that same period of time I've owned more than 12 new ThinkPads. Why? Because I'm simply a tech addict hands down. I like to have the latest and I make a living with my computer. I also enjoy both platforms. It was true years ago, that macs were easier to use and maintain than a PC, but now that is no longer true. It's perhaps the biggest reason I hate Apples TV Ads touting Apple superiority over the PC, simply untrue.

They both have their advantages and disadvantages. The main reason I would highly suggest a ThinkPad is that you not only would be getting very good laptop, but saving a heck of a lot of money. The premium price you pay for a MacBook or MacBook pro is no longer worth it unless price is no object to you. The only compelling reason to get a Mac is if you are one of those people that worship Apple. It never ceases to amaze me at near cult like behavior from the "mac faithful". While they are nice computers, that's where it begins and ends. They are not magic. They are no longer easier to use than a PC based laptop, and Windows XP is particularly stable. I would go for the ThinkPad.