Early Impressions of T500 from a Macbook Pro User

I would like to preface this thread with the following:

-These impressions are from a couple of months with a 2009 base Macbook Pro Unibody and one weekend with a Lenovo ThinkPad T500.
-This write up will contain my observations only and will not have any numerical figures to back up any claims (others on this site are better suited for this).
-This review is not from a software standpoint. This is not Windows vs. OS X; simply hardware with minimal software.
-I was strictly a desktop guy until October of last year. Before joining this site I was unfamiliar with such issues as keyboard flex, dead pixels and viewing angles. I was pretty ignorant to all things laptops.
-My only other experience with a ThinkPad was over 10 years ago for just a couple of weeks. Therefore I have no history with ThinkPads and no particular level of expectation set prior to arrival.

This thread would be of most interest to:

1.) Users on the fence between the two machines.
2.) Potential purchasers of the T500 or similar model.
3.) ThinkPad nuts.

I'll get this question out of the way quickly before I move on to impressions: Why did you move from a Macbook Pro to a ThinkPad? My reasoning was simply from a business standpoint, i.e - the software I will be utilizing now and beyond. It had nothing to do with OS X or Macbook Pro hardware (outside of the 4 gig limitation on the Pro). Both software and hardware on the MBP are just lovely.

T500 Arrival:

The packaging was simple and sparse; definitely on the opposite side of the spectrum when walking out of the Apple store with a new MBP. I was pleasantly surprised by the look, feel and most importantly - weight of the T500. I knew it was going to be a pound or so more than the MBP but from the pictures online I expected it to feel much bulkier. THIS was not the case however. To me, the weight between the two was negligible.

First Boot:

I was greeted with some Lenovo video which I decided to watch. I was pretty impressed by the water resistant feature; I was not aware of that. After the video Windows took quite some time to load (I packed this with 4 gig, btw). The reason for the long load time was (in my opinion) the boatload of ThinkPad software that comes equipped, aka - ThinkVantage. To some or maybe even most ThinkPad users, this software might be very important. For me? Not so much. I'm the minimalist type and the only service of value to me right now is the battery manager. Once I weeded through the services and went though the initial Vista update pains, the boot time and overall snappiness of the machine increased. The MBP on the other hand had zero bloat and was snappy from the get-go.

Screen:

I would say this has been my biggest dissapointment with the machine thus far. It's kind of like a candle to the MBP's light bulb. The screen is dim and the colors do not pop at all. I've been through multiple wallpapers and can't seem to find something that I'm satisfied with on the T500. On the MBP I can put a plain black wallpaper on and it looks amazing. Now I still have some playing around to do with the calibration but even still, the MBP is on another level. However, with that said there are some very important options that I configured on the T500 that could not be done on the base MBP. For example - 1680x1050 resolution and matte.

Over the last few months I've come to realize that the matte vs. glossy is really a holy war amongst consumers. I would say before the weekend my preference was glossy but now that has changed. I now see how important matte displays are when you cannot control the light conditions. Currently I do have control of my lighting but in the future I plan to move around different environments and the matte display will definitely help. Also, the option for a higher resolution is something that cannot be overlooked. As a software developer, it's really nice to have multiple windows side by side. This is something I can do on the T500 but not the base MBP.

One other note - viewing angles on both machines are very good.

Keyboard:

I was aware of the great reputation of the ThinkPad keyboards. I was also aware of the flex issue with the current models (although heard it was resolved). I can say that there is definitely some flex on my keyboard - only the left side. However, it's very minimal and does not effect my use of the laptop one bit. I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it but I can see how it would drive the ultimate perfectionsit up a roof. Outside of that the keys feels pretty good, not much to complain about here. They're definitely not quiet though (and I'm a pretty soft, touch typer). The MBP in comparison is as close to silent as one can get with zero flex. The T500 keyboard is not back-lit but it comes equipped with the "ThinkLight", which seems to be a very good alternative. On the MBP there is the ambient light detector which will automatically adjust screen/keyboard lighting based on your environment. This is hit or miss with people but I found it to be an enjoyable feature and one that will be sadly missed.


TrackPoint/Touchpad:

I would venture to guess that the most well-known feature of the ThinkPads has been their TrackPoints. Honestly, I saw this as a legacy feature that was simply going to be turned off in favor of the touchpad and/or mouse. I have to say though that this has been my biggest surprise yet - I might actually use the TrackPoint as my primary means to navigate! Although clunky at first, it didn't take me long to realize the benefits of it. The ability to touch type & navigate seamlessly cannot be expressed in words - it must be experienced. But, if this doesn't suit you there's always the Trackpad or mouse. The MBP's alternative is the multi-touch touchpad which is the best touchpad I've used bar none. Both machines have great ways to navigate around but the TrackPoint is killer, IMO.

Gaming:

These days I only play Left 4 Dead. On the MBP I had pretty smooth framerates but the fans made it sound like the laptop was going to take off. Also, the wasd keys got pretty hot...it made playing for an extended period of time a bit uncomfortable. I wasn't really sure what to expect with the T500 but after a few hours with Left 4 Dead at native resolution/med settings, I was pleased with the performance. It seems to be on par with the MBP minus the fans and the stinging heat.


Hardware Options:

I won't go into much detail here. But I do want to touch on a couple of important things for me: the T500 has 3 usb to the MBP's 2. The base MBP maxes out at 4 gig of ram while the T500 goes up to 8. There's also the 3g mobile card built into the T500 which is a really nice option. Overall the MBP seems to skimp out a bit on these extras whereas the T500 does not. The T500 is a bit more future proof.

Overall Build:

Both are top notch quality. I would say all things considered - the MBP has it beat in overall build. I mean the thing is carved out of a single block of aluminum! With that said though, I feel the ThinkPad will prove to be more durable over the long run. It's more of a ThinkTank than a ThinkPad. It just has a look and feel about. I don't really worry when I close the lid and take it from one desk to another. I don't have the overwhelming fear that if I drop it, it's going to bend or break. On the other hand, the MBP is like a giant first gen iPhone. And if you have owned or held one you'll know what I mean -- it's darn slippery!

Conclusion:

You really can't go wrong with either. From a hardware perspective, they're both top of the class. The ThinkPad is going to give you more power and options at a lower price. The MBP is going to give you the sexiest machine on the planet. Oh, and it's pretty darn capable at handling most things you throw at it too! I'm very happy with my T500 purchase and I have no regrets.

Category Breakdown:

Initial Purchase/Arrival Experience: MBP
First Boot: MBP
Screen: Push
Keyboard: MBP
Trackpoint/Trackpad: T500
Gaming: T500
Hardware Options: T500
Overall Build: Push

T500 Specs:
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44C1941 SBB LANG.PACK US ENG.

 

Thanks for taking the time to put together a write-up—it’s nice to hear from someone who hasn’t adopted Apple as their religion.

Some quick thoughts:

• I too am a minimalist and this is why I always do a clean install. Yes, the default install from Lenovo is still too bloated—they should have button that says click here to fill your notebook with “great” Lenovo software. Also, Vista is still very much a pig—after running the RC of Windows 7 I can never touch Vista gain.
• I concur on the screen—Lenovo has kind of dropped the ball here. I’m happy to have the higher resolution, but everything else is par or below.
• On the keyboard, well, Lenovo has dropped the ball here too. They took perfection, tried to perfect it some more and are simply left with egg on their face.
• As for the gaming heat, well, let’s just say after many years and iterations, Apple continues to make face plants here—and Lenovo engineering, in this regard, continues to have great success.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the review. Thanks for the additional points you made.

 

surpised to hear of keyboard flex still. i too thought Lenovo had fixed that. flex has no place on a decent keyboard. i have a 4 yr old notebook with zero flex...interested also in screen lighting problems. sounds like less than 200 nits? at least the future is brighter (smile) with LED backlights much stronger...W700 is 400 nits but due to doubling the 200 nit CCFL lamps.

 

I was a little disappointed in the flex. But in the grand scheme of things - it's kind of nit picking (at least in my case). If I tried to explain the issue to a regular computer user they would think I'm nuts.

 

you chose the MPB keyboard?

ive used those new keyboards and god are they awful. i dont understand how people can use them; the keys are freakin spaced apart!?!?!? why?

 

As a touch typer it didn't affect me at all. My fingers couldn't tell any difference as far as space is concerned.

I think the keyboard goes to the MBP because: 1.) No flex and 2.) It's quieter.

 

I also bought a T500 about 2 weeks ago. I have always owned Dell laptops, and once owned a Mac LC years ago. Macs are great machines.

It would be helpful if you listed your machine specs. I have the LED display which is a little washed out and skewed to blue. But I have adjusted the Blue/green/red brightness settings and the display is now perfect, except it is a little grainy compared the glossy displays I am used to.

Bloatware is a real problem on these machines. And there is no Vista only discs to accomplish a clean install. We are stuck reinstalling all the bloat unless we buy a new Vista license.

I have uninstalled all the Thinkvantage stuff except for the drive Active Protection System, Camera Center, and the Ultranav Utility which adds mouse controls.

I have also added a felt pad under the keyboard which has made the keyboard much better which I posted in this thread.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=385913

4G ram is great and is plenty of resources to handle all the Vista Services and additional programs like firewalls and antivirus programs.

The only thing I wish I had was an SSD drive. But the additional cost was not worth it. But this machine is snappy and very enjoyable.

Don't forget to make Recovery Disks, since Lenovo doesn't give you a set.

 

@joey-t

I updated the original post with specs for the T500. Thanks for your comments.

 

I too am surprised you picked the MPB keyboard. Being a touch typer doesn't make the tactile feel any less important. The quietness and back lighting are valid if that is of importance to you. But I am certainly never going to enjoy typing on a macbook keyboard. The old style MPB keyboard was fine though.

 

Yeah I think I did value the back lighting and quietness a lot. But do keep in mind this is an early impression; only after one weekend. I think the keyboard is definitely an area that can/will change over the course of time as opposed to say - gaming or even the screen.

 

I cant stand Mac keyboards. The keys and spacing are just un-natural feeling at best and there is no delete option(drives my wife and I nuts). It does the job, but a huge turn off. There are other issues with my wifes macbook, but Ill leave them out as to not upset certain people.

The one thing I can say about the MBP is I do like the silver aluminum design, although the 17in lacks a num pad (I require a numpad on 17in notebooks). I do like the sleek looks on the outside and the thin chassis for mobility. But the slipperiness and heat do negate these pluses to a point.

 

I think that is a notable point. The MBP has a solid chassis being from a solid Al piece, but the rubber paint on the thinkpads makes it easier to handle without worry. Also I personally would care less about scuffing my thinkpad than a MBP which would show it on the Al in an unattractive manner.

 

I LOVE the rubber feeling of a thinkpad. Its one of the nice little perks that come with them. Plus Im a sucker for business class notebooks so imho thinkpad && dell business > macbook; . But still the screen and look of mbp(outside the keyboard) are pretty stunning.

 

Put a macbook panel (i know its glossy and all) on a thinkpad, and I would have my dream laptop.

 

Amen. The screen is the achilles heel of the T500. Its saving grace is that it's matte and gives you the option for a higher resolution than the base MBP.

 

if only the t500 had led backlighting and backlighted keyboard, it would be a pretty dangerous competitor.

 

Backlight keyboard would ruin the keyboard even more as I don't believe Lenovo engineers could retain the same tactile feel.

 

The concept of backlit keyboards is something i never understood. When typing i dont think i ever look at the keyboard, so functionality wise it is a bit worthless. Does look cool though.

 

Well, how handy are you?

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=4603691&postcount=14

Backlit keyboards are overrated though, especially with the ThinkLight.

 

Asus did offer a glossy IPS display on its V6Va. It's the only glossy IPS screen ever offered as far as I know. If you like glossy displays I would think that would be one heck of a panel.

You're comparing apples and oranges so to speak. The unibody has a glossy screen. I think most people would agree colors are more vivid and pop off the screen more on a glossy screen, but that comes at the cost of significantly more glare as you've noted. I guess it would depend on which you prefer. It'd be interesting to compare the MBP screen against something like the Dell RGB-LED screen, which is supposed to be a very good glossy screen. I've never seen one myself.

I've seen ThinkPad WSXGA+ screen. I'd say it's an above average panel with decent contrast and viewing angles, though it's no IPS screen. If you want to see a good ThinkPad screen, check one of those out. Sadly they don't sell those anymore. The sad part is you're in a lot of cases paying 2x for a MBP, but getting a screen that's not significantly better than anything else on the market.

On another PC vs Mac deviation, until recently I owned a Mac, which I sold it recently. In the insanity of Macland, for more than I paid for it. One thing that was always interesting to me was that my Mac was almost the same machine as my 14" R60 - T2300, 2GB of memory and 7200RPM hard drive. It always seemed that my Mac was more laggy performance wise when pretty much doing anything - opening a app, coding a file, booting, etc. This would include while running the dreaded Vista, which I kind of like. Was this your experience too?

 

hmmm I wonder if this screen would also work in a T500. If it did, I would buy myself a refurb T500 and make the swap myself.

 

My experience with pc/mac has been this:

Initially, OS X was far snappier than Vista. Hands down. After a period of time though it almost seemed to me that OS X got slower, while Vista sped up. I don't have any data to support this; only my feelings of working with both for a few years.

Also, I have an external hard drive. In OS X (and this was reported by others), the hd would kick on and off to conserve on power, I believe (and I did play with power configurations as well). When it did this, the dreaded OS X beachball would come up and not allow me to do anything for 3-5 seconds. This does not happen in Vista.

 

i've also been contemplating the change but my mac runs w7 rc perfectly.i guess i'll buy w7 rc next year and use it with my mac.

 

It's not an easy decision and it's especially hard when you tend to use more Windows programs than Mac. From what I recall you're in the Visual Studio camp? That's the same as me and I found myself using Windows more, so it didn't make sense to keep my Macbook pro.

For me it boiled down to this: there isn't one program I NEED on OS X. They're mostly used for exploration purposes, and although I enjoy them they're not a necessity for me to get my work done. On Windows I NEED applications like Visual Studio, SQL Server, etc. I also like to do some gaming as well.

And although the point is moot in our case - price is a big factor. It's nice to know that when I go to purchase a new machine I will get more hardware for less.

 

If only Apple would grow a pair and allow a virtualized OS X instance to run on Windows/non-Apple hardware…

 

I'm sure they could work it out without losing too much of the thinkpad feel. But LED keyboards aren't business class style imho, and having them on a thinkpad would be a turnoff to most of the thinkpad market.

See I dont know why anyone would need illuminated keyboards when there is a thinklight. Is the light really bad or useless? I tried out the think light in a normal setting and it seemed like it would be just fine for those who look at their keyboards.

Doesn't mac have a virtual PC that you can use VS in? If so why change? Look at me talking an Apple guy into keeping their mac.

 

I've never felt one way or another about lighting and business-class style. They're just two roads to the same destination: being able to get stuff done in suboptimal surroundings. I guess backlighting could be considered more discreet (assuming we're not talking about the blood red backlighting you'll find on a, say, Alienware laptop!). And it'll never shine in your face, regardless of screen angle...

But, really, it didn't make any difference to me when I was comparing Lenovos to backlit Dell Es.

 

If it can be done in a T61, then I'm sure the procedure is very similar for the T500. I don't care enough to do the swap since I don't necessarily see myself keeping a laptop for many years, and I have it hooked up to my TV about 30-40% of the time.

 

I would appreciate an update of that discussion if T500 is able to handle the shown T61's screen , also with additional information.

 

somebody just needs to try it. What does it take to make a screen compatible? Is it connector type? BIOS settings, etc? Or is it as easy as swapping out monitors?

 

I guess if there is a frame difference, really don't know because probably have not read enough about this. That's why I'm hoping someone really would try it

 

Why didnt you just install W7 on the MBP ?

 

Definitely an option (though I don't think it's supported...yet). I could have, I just decided that a full-time Windows machine would ultimately suit my needs better.

I've been on a laptop carousel the last year: Apple, Gateway, Asus, Lenovo. You really don't want to try and apply reasonable logic when it comes to my purchases

 

The horrible chiclet keyboard is the main reason (along with glossy screen and no track point) I did not switch over to a MBP (pro...??)

It is astounding how much Apple puts style over substance nowadays.

And yes I am a touch typist

 

I think some people enjoy the sound and reponse that they get from their devices/keyboard/etc. Not everyone does though. I guess I can see how it's annoying for some and enjoyable for only a few. Its kinda like regular point-and-shoot (quiet) vs SLR users with their shutter sound. I enjoy the response I get from both my T400 and SLR, it's satisfying.

 

Haha this is off-topic but the MacBook Air vs. the ThinkPad X300 is a funny bloodbath, the ThinkPad easily beats the Air in almost every aspect. Apple freaks are funny sometimes but more annoying IMO.

 

@ hax0rJimDuggan

i'm close to buying a T400 with discrete graphics, seeing as those lappys are very much the same i have a couple of questions:

Do you have the LED backlit screen? and How warm does the bottom and the palmrests of the laptop get, in terms of, will it make my palms sweaty and burn a hole in my pants as my old Macbook Pro used to do? (yes i also had a MBP, but non-unibody, the santa-rosa model)

And what are HDD temperatures like? i heard some HDD's really get effin hot to the touch..

 

Nope the T400 never gets hot. It doesn't even get warm really. Only time it'll get warm is the bottom may start to get warm if you leave it on a cloth
material like a comforter or pillow, not allowing it any air. Palm area is always cool no matter what though.

 

just read about this post, and what in interesting post! i'd just like to point out the lag in the first boot is mainly because it IS the first boot - it initialises loads of stuff in windows and what not. none of the subsequent normal boot ups should take as long as that first one

but anyway, glad you like the thinkpad instead of the apple stuff, and i'm really glad you like the trackpoint! it really is bloody awesome especially if you are a programmer (and don't use the weird stuff like emacs or vi).

regarding the backlit thinkpad keyboards, yes i have previously read that the thinkpad engineers have been unable to get the backlight working without affecting the feel. but that was at least 2,3 years ago, so they might have figured that out by now (god knows what awesome things they are doing in the yamato labs!)

 

yes, thinkpads are one of the best if not THE best in laptop cooling on the market

 

thinkpad is a laptop built for the users, it is not flash or anything, but you will know how good it is when you use it. While, Macbooks are really built for people around you, since it is really something to impress them, but from an overall user ability point of view it is quite poor.

 

that sounds really wise tbh, i respect that

 

Just saw this thread pop up...funny coincidence as I just got a MBP 17" with the anti-glare screen.

I've been a Thinkpad user ever since the first models. Does anyone remember that Thinkpad that had the butterfly keyboard? Yeah, it's been a long time.

Anyway, I've been using the W500 which I upgraded to from the T61p, before that the T60p, the T43p, etc. etc. Usually every 6-12 months I would upgrade. I love everything about Thinkpads...until recently...and my only complaint now is the display.

I've always gone for the higher resolutions flexview display when possible. My reason for getting the W500 over the T500 was for the WUXGA screen. The display is really its weakpoint. Since I'm on my laptop 12-14 hours a day it really becomes an issue. Especially at higher resolutions. I tried the W700 which has a 400 nit display, and it's a really nice screen, but just too big of a laptop.

So I thought I'd give the MBP 17" a shot. If I can run Windows 7 on it then I'm good to go. After using it for a couple of days so far so good. The major disadvantage so far has been the trackpoint. I really, really miss it. My rationalization is what's more important, the trackpoint or the display? Right now it's the display but we'll see how that holds up The keyboard is okay, my hand is cramping a bit just typing this but I find typing on the MBP pretty easy. I really like the soft touch of the keys. Unfortunately the mouse click button on the trackpad is really loud so I've been using touch to tap which okay, but really I prefer to click.

 

Here’s to hoping the ThinkPad engineers remember some of the things that made the ThinkPads stand out—Flexview and related screens and rock solid keyboard—and not screw these up for the next hardware refresh (like they have for the current shipping models).

 

I agree...

I'm really hoping the next iteration of the W500 will have a brighter better WUXGA LED and core i7 chip. For now, I'll juggle back and forth and see how it goes...

I understand they want to pump out cheap machines for the masses, but quite honestly let that be the Ideapads or whatever, maybe even the T series, but give a little more high end components to the W series to get back to their "Workstation" designation.

 

hmmm,


im so tempted:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...3532423&_trkparms=tab=Watching#ht_5504wt_1165


i asked him one more question about teh wifi chipset though....

*nervous trigger finger*

 

My t400 only gets noticeably warm when docked to 2 24in LCDs and has wifi on and working really hard. Other wise its pretty cool.

 

The new macbook pro keyboards really is the bum... much worse than the last release with the non-uni shell version.....

 

yup.

thats the reason why i wont be buying an apple laptop anytime soon. i hate chiclet keys.