Does anyone wish IBM still made Thinkpads?

Good question. I think this could be a marketing gimmick. Maybe we are all fooled.

 

I totally see where you're coming from, but I think you're also in the minority on this one. To some degree it's just a different world than when IBM made ThinkPads. Laptops back then were expensive business tools. Now laptops are ubiquitous, used by everyone. For that to happen prices had to come down. Now Lenovo can make ThinkPads to your way of thinking "durable, high quality machine", but ain't no one going to buy them cause they're too expensive. I get asked a fair amount which laptop people should buy and price is usually the biggest factor for most. It's just the world we live in.

 

well for one thing, the IPS LCD offered on the IBM laptops were by far the best, so is the keyboard (try the X30x and 600x keyboard), there were other technological advances too that many laptop companies only caught up later on. But as competition increased in the laptop industry and outsourcing become the norm, competition quickly caught up to IBM Thinkpads in many instances. Quality of laptops were just a question on how much they were selling the laptop for given the feature, and what target market they are aiming for.

So basically HP or Dell could (in the Thinkpad T4x era) make a laptop as good as the IBM Thinkpad laptop, if they diverted same amount of money towards the quality control and parts tolerance aspect of the manufacturing process.

 

As I said, if I had the money, I'd go for it. And, if I don't then I'd have to limit myself to only lusting for it. Of course, it would be expensive in India. It still is!

 

before I got my x200 tablet, I read everywhere that the keyboard on the thinkpad is the best bla bla bla. When I got my thinkpad, I wasn't that impressed, feels better than other laptop keyboard but not good enough to make you no want to buy an external keyboard.

 

" Now laptops are ubiquitous, used by everyone. For that to happen prices had to come down. Now Lenovo can make ThinkPads to your way of thinking "durable, high quality machine", but ain't no one going to buy them cause they're too expensive. I get asked a fair amount which laptop people should buy and price is usually the biggest factor for most. It's just the world we live in."

Zaz, when no one is responsible "for the world we live in", then what you say becomes true. However, we are all responsible whether we acknowledge that or not. This means that it's up to every one of us to change the world we live in and to reclaim responsibility for it.

I recognize that I have different priorities than most of us do BUT that's because I have thought about them.

Renee

 

Oh brother... more unecessary preschool economic structure lessons, can we please limit this talk to the actual discussion of the laptops.. not borderline commie talk..

 

Fine Renee next time you buy a cheaper Lenovo thinkpad, just get another one or two for the people in developing country, this way you will be paying IBM Thinkpad price and helping the world around. I am sure the world is going to be a better place.

 

I have to agree with this. I like my ThinkPad's keyboard, and it was actually one of the factors that led me to choose my T510. However perhaps ThinkPad keyboards feel so good because other notebook keyboards are so abysmal. Most of the time I have one of my Model M's plugged in becuase there's no typing experience better than a Model M (IMO). However couch time with my T510 is not unpleasant in this regard as I can type almost as fast on the ThinkPad keyboard as on my Model M.

I remember my wife's work notebook back around 1996. It was an NEC I believe, and it had the loudest, most clicky keyboard I have ever experienced. It was great - full key travel and deliciously tactile. It was also bulky and added to the overall size of the machine. A worthy design trade in my estimation.

 

"Oh brother... more unecessary preschool economic structure lessons, can we please limit this talk to the actual discussion of the laptops.. not borderline commie talk.."

So now I'm a "borderline commie" because I've taken the responsibility to be responsible for my decisions?

Lead Org sorry but that's another capitalistic decision.

Renee

 

Compaq, Dell, and Toshiba all had business lines, and Compaq was comparable in build to ThinkPads.

Yes, support well beyond EOL.

 

I don't know I had a Compaq Armada M700 which is their business line and it fell apart pretty badly. It was given to me by my older sister and the hinge was damaged, trackpoint buttons worn very badly to be barely usable and it kept generating ROM errors on the BIOS. I still owe a lot to it though as it introduced me to the Trackpoint but I don't know if it was comparable in terms of durability. Maybe I got a duff one at the time?

 

Perhaps so. The M700s I was deploying at the time were pretty tough.

 

Couldn't agree more. For as many threads as there are here about the loss of quality, there's many more about how to get the best deal. This puts enormous cost pressure on manufacturers to keep prices low. When they raise prices the typical buyer, not the people here, will go elsewhere cause the average buyer doesn't care about this stuff.

 

1) Yes. HP and Dell did, and at one point, Toshiba had a pretty clear market too (I find it muddy now; there was a time when their business laptops were among the best). You still paid a premium for IBM over, say, a Dell Latitude, or an HP Business Notebook, but people who did so did for the same reason someone buys a Cadillac over a Chevy.

2)IBM had the best keyboard of anyone. IBM was known for some of the most rugged construction, along with the rubberized cover (the only other major notebooks I've seen to do that were Apple's Powerbook G3 family). IBM was also renowned at one point for their support.

 

I've been wary about buying any Thinkpad after the T6x series. I've ready too many complaints about newer models over the last couple years.

 

I wouldn't be. I bought my T61 new a few years back and could not be happier. The newer models are just as good, if not better. If you REALLY want a Thinkpad, I'd go for it !

 

I've never owned an IBM-made ThinkPad; I couldn't afford it. Both of my ThinkPads have been Lenovo.

They've both been good units. I think there's a couple of considerations to take in mind.

• Some people expect their Lenovo ThinkPad to be 100% as good as an IBM model, at half the cost. This is unrealistic.
• Some people are extremely picky. (note: I myself am picky about some things, but I also accept that the human race is, well, human).
• Some people still don't understand the distinction between consumer and business laptops, which leads to unfair and misleading comparisons on price, looks, etc. without taking other things into the comparison, such as build quality, durability, and stability.

I'm not saying I won't look at Dell's Latitude line and compare it to Lenovo at the time I look for my next laptop; I want build quality, features, performance and price to come into my purchasing decisions, and I won't buy a ThinkPad just because I've had two. That said, I've been happy with the two that I've had, and think that ThinkPads are worth buying consideration.

 

Two points.
1) I think the genesis of 'thinkpad' is lost of many buyers today. And,
2) people are forgetting how important context and relativity when making comparisons across time.

Having owned both a T60 and a W510, I can say that though the W510 seems certainly sturdier, it is both thicker and heavier than than the T60. Its sturdiness comes at the cost of portability. And I would argue that mobility was just as much as a core IBM Thinkpad virtue as durability. Thinkpads weren't simply about getting the most indestructible notebook, or the most faultless design, but rather a balanced well thoughtout system that could take the everyday dings and bruises that life on the road entails.

That is where the association between Thinkpad and Business machine was forged. For people who associate Thinkpad with business because of bland aesthetics and poor multimedia prowess simply miss this important connection. They were business machines because they were tailored to working professionals who were consistently on the go and required a system that was as durable as it was travel friendly.

And if there is one part of thinkpadness that I miss, it is that. It's nice to have a W510, but I would love the equivalent of a 14inch T4xp or T6xp that was sub 6lbs total travel weight. IMO, the thinkpad today that most embodies that spirit of power/portability/durability is the X200. Both the T4x00 are rather underpowered vs the market while the W510 is simply a pain to bring around not only being larger than the T510, but also heavier with an albatross of a power-brink. And yes I know the T400s and X300 perhaps harken back to those days of mobility but neither offer particularly more performance than many other offerings in that segment now.

Secondly, everyone arguing how Lenovo has brought the thinkpad downmarket and has thus as had to have made compromises misses the fact that even today, relatively speaking, thinkpads are still prohibitively more expensive than similarly spec'd laptops on the market. The premium may not be nearly as high, but definitely still exists. And to argue that thinkpads used to cost over five grand and now can be had for under one conveniently omits the fact that prices has crashed throughout the market. The Thinkpad may have been $5,000, but the Dell and Toshiba would have been at least 4 grand themselves (and at that time, the concept of a consumer commodity laptop did not even exist).

And despite everything I've written, I own a Thinkpad today. I love the machine, the design, but am under no illusions that some core qualities have not vanished along the way. Thinkpad today is in a very different positoin in the market today than it was five or ten years ago. However, whether it due to Lenovo, or the changing nature of computer ownership (laptops vs desktops), or the fact that they are getting less innovative, is another argument entirely.

 

And maybe most importantly I miss the old colourful logo. There was something corny about it, but also classic--like the plaid seats in a VW GTI that was just perfect

 

does the thinkpad contract with Lenovo end this year? After 2010, lenovo may have to drop the thinkpad brand.

 

Lenovo bought the Think brand outright, there is no contract as such. Not sure where you are getting these mis-information from.

@chupacabras... even IBM is moving their logo design colour to blue.... yes the colour logo does look somewhat attractive on a black casing.

 

"For as many threads as there are here about the loss of quality, there's many more about how to get the best deal. This puts enormous cost pressure on manufacturers to keep prices low. When they raise prices the typical buyer, not the people here, will go elsewhere cause the average buyer doesn't care about this stuff."

Zaz, I don't disagree with you. I largely disagree wirh the concepts behind "free marketing". It's not free, really. This is a good example. Vendors are succumbing to "marketing pressures". How free is that? It's so free, that 'good computers' are not available and there's a huge amount of junk around which lenovo is following. The problem is, Zaz, that computers have been made available to the masses and there are people to whom price is more important than how well (including durability) a computer works. See, I think those people are boring and you don't see me in those threads and you never have.
Renee

 

my bad: it's the right to use IBM brand for five years not thinkpad brand. So I guess they are able to use thinkpad for as long as they want.

 

Chupacabras, I can only say that my T61 and my T400 cost $200-300 less than the comparable Dell Latitude or HP Business Notebooks available at the time. HP was the priciest, Dell in the middle, and the ThinkPad cost the least. The ThinkPad was the only choice under a grand.

It might have taken me a coupon code or the CPP program to do it, but even with Dell discounts, I couldn't come close.

 

@Renee, while it is true that the quality of the laptop has declined from the early years, but the price came down faster than the outright quality. I know lot of people wouldn't able to afford a laptop when i started uni, now most students are able to use laptop of some description, whether it is Apple Macbook Pro or an Acer Netbook.

Sure that you say that you would rather spend 3000 dollars for a high quality computer, but have you considered people whom are on extremely limited income or on social benefits with lots of kids? How can you deny the rights of these people to have a cheap computer? Stretching from your theory, every car should be a Rolls Royce (price and quality to match) and for poor sods whom can't afford it, then they have to walk or use the transit system from their suburban home to their destination that is 20 km away.

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Also, i never ever heard of the term Free Marketing been thrown around, are you sure you are not referring to Free Market? They are of slightly different concept. Also, i think it is not Marketing Pressure, but rather Market Pressure.

 

There's always a ying and a yang in life. I see the dropping of PC/Computer prices on the whole as a positive. Reserving them for the well healed or those lucky get them another way, shuts out a huge chunk of the population.

 

it's yin and yang

 

Meh. Tomato - tomahto.

 

Ying and Yang is perfectly acceptable, as this is how some people were taught and how it was used in certain region of English speaking world.

But i think the meaning has came through, and that is what it is important. There is NO ambiguity about what the phrase means.

Just like Lee and Li represents the same surname in Chinese, depending on whether you use Wade-Giles or Pinyin.

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If you want to a confusion about usage of certain Chinese word in English. Try the US Marine use of 'Gung Ho' and Chinese communist party's usage of 'Gong He', which derived from the same word Gong He invented by New Zealander Rewi Alley to mean work together, rather the Marine's meaning of dedicated and enthusiastic. Sorry for the digression

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But back to the topic of discussion. Thinkpads remain the premier laptop and it is imitated by the likes of HP and Dell. For example, in response to Lenovo's T61 screen magnesium rollcage with honeycomb structure. HP also imitated this feature in their later HP Elitebook, with a sheet of magnesium having many perforations, which they refer to as honeycomb structure. (But it is nothing but a flat plate with circular perforation, which is not a honeycomb structure).

 

Lead Org,

The capitalist solution is that I can't have a good lap top because of "market pressures"?

(I pre-apologize for this argumentive stance, but I am angry.)

Renee

 

Glad that we got the confusion resolved. While, i do not absolutely share your view, but i know where you are coming from and respect your opinion on this issue.

 

ying usually means eagle (or other characters with different meanings) in Chinese, not negativity or female genitalia.

Lead Org: Don't mislead white people any further. You know that 阴 is never pronounced as ying, nor is it spelled as ying under pinyin or Wade-Giles system.

 

i don't see what the big deal is with the spelling of Ying Yang or Yin Yang... just like it is perfectly acceptable to use either colour or color... all i am here to do, is to converse knowledge on computers and not on English or Chinese language usage. I am not a bigot and hate bigots.

 

I wish lenovo could buy playstation brand from Sony, and make it cheaper than Wii.

 

if Sony sells P.S. brand then it got no competitive edge in the electronic market. The new video game console that Lenovo engineer helped to develop should make it competitive against the like of Wii and Xbox Kinitec, all that is needed now is some good game developers.

 

has it ever occurred to you that the second character in Lenovo XIANG 想 means "think", and when combined together 联想 LIANXIANG, they mean to associate mentally.

Then 联想 bought the brand "thinkpad" from IBM, and finally 联想 created the ideapad.

Is this just a coincidence or has Lenovo been planning taking over thinkpad from the beginning??

 

The name change from Legend to Lenovo was no coincidence, and it was probably no coincidence that Lenovo chose Thinkpad as a takeover target.

i can tell you that most of the executives in Legend used Thinkpads before they even contemplated the takeover.

From what i was told, ideapad was created to fall in with the Thinkpad brand, and not really the 联想 company logo, since no one outside of Chinese speaking communities understood what the company logo stood for.

Basically, Lenovo is milking every ounce out of Think brand.

Why do you think Lenovo has removed the Lenovo logo in the current Thinkpad's top casing like they did for the T400, T500, etc? While, at the same time pushed the release of more products under Thinkpad logo?

More people recognize the Thinkpad brand than the Lenovo brand name, (there are still many people whom thinks Lenovo is just an IBM spin-off). Basically, Thinkpad is what defines the Lenovo to people outside of China, and not the other way around. (While opposite was true when IBM owned Think brand, people associated Thinkpad brand as a creation of IBM Inc).

 

the name change was due to the fact that "legend" was already taken in many countries and because legend wanted to go global, they had to pick a name that's unique to avoid legal issues.

Yeah, I think "thinkpad" is enough to stand on its own.

 

Hence, why Lenovo acquires Think brand inorder to boost their global reach, rather than starting from scratch.

Lenovo as compared to HP, Acer or Dell are still too narrowly focused in the laptop and PC market. They need to diverge attention to other 'technology enhanced business sectors'.

 

That's very interesting. I didn't know that, but then again I don't know chinese.
I was referencing an old song, from the 30's. It goes something like "you like tomato, I like tomAHto, you like potato, I like potAHto". Just talks about how we pronounce things differently, but it means the same thing.