Does anyone wish IBM still made Thinkpads?

This is not meant to cause an argument, but a real question. I keep reading about IBM's quality, and whether it is better or worse since Lenovo took over. I just wonder. Does anyone wish IBM still had the brand?
With regards to my T410, it's the best laptop I've ever owned. Very good quality. I will say that once I had to inquire with IBM about a part I ordered for my T410, and the service was horrible. The automated system was buggy, I kept getting busy signals, and when I finally would get through it kept taking me to the spanish speaking system, finally it took me to the wrong department and I had to have someone transfer me to the right department. I don't know if that's indicative of IBM's quality in general though. But still I wonder, were the IBM thinkpads worst or better than the current Lenovo thinkpads?

 

I just know that I like thinkpad because this brand has been created by IBM, not because it's being produced by lenovo!

 

As an employee for an enterprise that has leased tens of thousands of Thinkpads over the past decade, purchased IBM's Tivoli product and purchases quite a few of their cash registers, I am very happy that IBM doesn't build Thinkpads any longer.

Getting competent software and hardware support under IBM is like pulling mule teeth with chopsticks with greased hands during the month of January while in the arctic circle. Lenovo at least tries, even if they're not significantly more successful.

 

So you live your life in nostalgia.. There is no point loving something if you don't understand what you are loving it for. So what exactly do you like about IBM Thinkpads (mind you it costs more too)? I mean you bought your T410 from the outlet, which means you are chasing for value. IBM Thinkpads weren't cheap. Or is it better that it is priced so high that you couldn't afford it?

As long as the core spirit remains, and certainly for all intents and purposes, Thinkpad have remained true to its name. Also, it is prudent to remember that Thinkpad's design team remained back at Lenovo when IBM transferred the title to Lenovo. David Hill is one of these people whom worked at IBM's design team for Think branded products, and he is one of the chief architecture of the X300/X301 among many other Think branded products under Lenovo management.

Finally, do you only use IBM branded PCs? Because PC genera was something defined by IBM? Remember IBM PC.

 

Wow, I didn't know that.

 

yeah, almost everyone from the IBM PC division was hired by lenovo in the acquisition.   wishing IBM still made them isn't really necessary since most of the same people are designing the same product shipped out of the same factories since back in the "IBM days" (although i'd humbly argue that the products are getting better ).

the underlying issue isn't so much the quality as it is the competition.   back in IBM's era, personal computers were an emerging technology.   today we're dealing with toasters -- everyone makes the darned things and are competing for the lowest price.   it's not easy keeping everyone happy these days.

 

Yep, the design team that was based in the U.S. still is. David Hill actually maintains a blog entitled "Design Matters" where he comments on, explains, or goes off on tangents about some Thinkpad features. You can read it here.

But responding to your original question: no, I do not wish IBM still made the Thinkpads, because I would likely not be able to afford them. Back when IBM held the Thinkpad brand, those machines were way, way out of my budget.

 

No, because IBM is American. Lenovo is the brand of the Chinese brand.

 

I think some have been mislead by this image of ThinkPad quality that somehow ThinkPads of yore were bulletproof and never had issues. If you think that way you either don't know the brand well or are choosing not to remember the pitfalls.

I would argue as erik does, that ThinkPads are getting better and offering more value. Even if you can argue the new machines aren't quite as good as the old ones, which is debatable, you're getting them at half or less the cost in the good old days. That has a lot of value. I picked up my X200 at a third the cost of what a comparable X3x machine would cost back in the day and I'd argue it's every bit as good, if not better.

 

was the IBM thinkpad made in America? Thus the higher cost of labour?

 

IBM had manufacturing plants for the ThinkPad in the US, Mexico, China, Japan, and Taiwan.   IBM was just as much a worldwide company as Lenovo is today.

the higher costs came from technology being vastly more expensive 5, 10, and 15 years ago.   everything electronic was more expensive.   that has nothing to do with IBM specifically.

my first ThinkPad was $5500 USD.   i'm glad those days are gone.

 

You are so right - let me list how mine have fared over the years:

755Cs - screen went out on the last day of the warranty

755CE - overheating batteries and left mouse button failing and replaced repeatedly

760/760e/760x - all three of them Worst Keyboard Ever - ran so hot that IBM had to provide a heat shield kit for the bottom

600/600e/600x - nearly perfect form factor but there are tales of woe to match re batteries

T23 - cracked at the left upper edge of the palmrest and over the CD drive on not just mine but every other one I saw

T40 - motherboard failure

T60p - running fine

X300 - took a full 16oz glass of ice and water in the keyboard and still runs like a top - battery is beginning to go after 2.5 years

X301 - brand new

 

Wow, that's interesting janel. It really sounds like the thinkpad quality has improved. Of course I only have the T410 as a reference point.

 

I will never encounter a better made product than my IBM Thinkpad X41. Not only was the build quality exceptional, it had a classyness in design that you just dont see anymore. All the little details, from the feel of the casing, to the sound it clicked in when you closed the lid.

And of course, the keyboards were unbelivable, especially if like me you got the very rare NMB keyboard, best keyboard ever!

PLus the insides were great, it ran Windows 7 perfectly, and it came out in 2005 i think.

 

I have a feeling that if they compared my T61P to a 510 the t61p would win mechanically. But it also will weigh more. Unfortunately, the t61ps class does not seem to be getting any lighter.

Renee

 

IBM was a great technology innovator and has the R&D to match, but it is not a great consumer product marketer, as it deals more in B2B (Business to Business) area than B2C (Business to Consumer). I think IBM realises that in the recent year, as electronic products got cheaper, hence why IBM happily outsources its technology and do joint ventures in high tech technology R&D and manufacturing (i.e. CPU manufacturing and design).

IBM is also divesting from the consumer electronic product areas, such as HDD, LCD, etc, which were all sold off due to the increased competition in those areas from cheaper manufacturers.

Regarding product problems with Thinkpads, it is a great machine and the design has stayed consistent, which is a rarity in the business.

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Regarding X41 and that, it is a fairly good product but let down by the slow 1.8 inch PATA hdd, which was prone to failure. X60/x61 was very similar to the X41.

CPU wise, it is just a low voltage Pentium M processor, there is nothing really that special about it.

 

nope because I wouldnt be able to afford one. I remember trying to spec out a X41 with minimal needs and the final price was catastrophic.

Looking around, there still isn't a laptop for around $1100USD which weighs 3 pounds and has an i5 cpu. I just kept searching and couldn't find anything close. HP's run so hot.

 

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Let's call it good old days. IBM reminds me of those days. And when I was a kid and there were not too many names that you see today, I've always liked the pioneers in every field. Way too much difference between the one who starts sth and the others who follow and copy. Basically that's it.

I agree. If it wasn't because of the outlet, I couldn't afford one, specially here in Europe, many hate thinkpad! because of the price.
After Lenovo came, the prices became more reasonable, but most of us don't like Thinkpad for the new reasonable prices! We like it for it belonged to IBM someday, it was great and we all dreamed of having one! Let's not give credit to Lenovo for producing cheap things(they have already started making things cheaper though)

Even if I couldn't buy one, I'd love Thinkpad.

I agree completely.

No

 

well i guess the phrase 'you can't have your cake and eat it too' comes to mind. Lenovo can't simultaneously offer super exotic construction materials (like Titanium Composites or Titanium metal) and AUDI like fitting tolerance, but at the same time lowering the selling price. Thinkpad brand has been repositioned and repriced as such, in order to make the laptop business profitable for Lenovo. IBM was losing money on the Think branded consumer PC/Laptop businesses before it was sold off to Lenovo.

Well, it is true that innovators are something aspirational to all, but innovators are not the best people to market the technology and expand the business. If you looked at history books on many companies, then you would know that lot of innovators in business or technology no longer exists, because they simply can't adapt to the changing market situation. In consumer electronics world you don't get Nobel Prize for been innovative, the only accolades/prize that people recognise and shareholders willing to accept, is ever increasing profit return.... you can only achieve that through identifying market segments, and producing and positioning a product with the right pricing and product features to match the perceived consumer demand.

It is not important whom start the race the fastest, but it is rather whom finishes the race first that is the most important.

IBM started the race but did not finishes the race in the laptop industry, so i am not sure whether that is something to cheer about.

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Also, it seems rather weird to me that you talk about how bad that Lenovo is at diluting the IBM's Thinkpad brand, by lowering the price level and decreasing certain quality standards, but yet pursued your purchase of laptops from outlet so that you could get your laptop at the cheapest possible price. So i wonder how many IBM Thinkpads did you actually purchase to elicit this nostalgia?

This sort of attitudes and purchasing behaviours is what forced IBM to sell their computer business to Lenovo. You admire IBM Thinkpads but yet are not willing to pay for it, then you purchase the Lenovo Thinkpads and mourn about things lost when it was under IBM, but clearly benefited more from the transaction with Lenovo at the helm. In which case maybe people like you whom admire IBM Thinkpad so much to actually pay something closer to what IBM was selling their thinkpads at, and instead of chasing bargains from the other side of the world. I call this double standards.

If Lenovo sells the Thinkpads for the price that IBM offered them at, then i think Lenovo could easily produce a product that match and exceed the IBM 'older' Thinkpads. But not lot of people are willing to outlay the kind of cash necessary to get a laptop, when a laptop half or one third of the price could perform just as well.

You know why Panasonic Toughbooks is still a niche product?

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The point I'm trying to make is that I appreciate IBM for the introduction of Thinkpad, Nothing is perfect, so was IBM. The brand was sold off too Lenovo, they changed it a bit, made it more affordable and even more popular(maybe because of being more affordable!). Lenovo's success was firstly because of good quality and reputation of IBM-Thinkpads and then because of Lenovo's modifications. Then again I appreciate the combination of IBM's great legacy, lenovo's modifications and cheap outlet prices, let me call it my triple standards, but something I forgot to point out,

Let's not give too much credit to Lenovo's modifications, they have made some changes, some good(that I appreciate) and some bad, I just don't want to see Thinkpad becoming like other ordinary notebooks(quality wise and its look). It'd be boring.

 

lenovo just tryin to sell the notebook.

given the popularity of thinkpad in the market. all they need to do just to do adjustment here and there so that it becomes more affordable.

 

your X41 was designed, created, and manufactured under Lenovo in 2005/2006.   flip it over and i bet you'll find a Lenovo logo on the machine information decal.   the only reason it still had IBM decals on it was because of the trademark agreement.

your T61p was also designed by Lenovo despite the IBM logos on your lid and palmrest.   not to discount the T6-series' quality but the W510 is stronger and more mechanically sound.   get your hands on one and you'll probably agree.


again, the majority of IBM's PC design team still works at Lenovo.   let's not overlook that fact.

 

Interesting discussion.

 

Ok, I have to disagree on the comment that a W510 is "stronger" than a T60/61. I have handled both a T61, and ( a business partner) has the W510. To me, they both feel the same (with the W510 having the new redesigned keyboard). But to me, they are both physically the same. Both the my T61 and my friends W510 had the same "palmrest squeaks" issue, but that was it. They both have the internal roll cage built in (both top, and bottom), etc.

Also, I noticed a LOT in this thread that the cost of IBM Thinkpads was significantly more than when Lenovo took it over. So, how much would a T30/40, etc. cost (on average, and in USD) ? $3,000 ?

Not trying to start an argument on a W510 vs T6X, I'm just trying to figure out HOW a W510 would be built stronger then the T6X series, that is all

 

Strength wise i don't think W510 is any better than the regular 15.4 inch T61.... i think they are about the same.

T30 that i got from a friend (for free) cost the person maybe around $4000 AUD, which was only a medium spec version. The top spec would have cost around 5000 AUD, or around 3500 USD back then.

 

tear them both down to the substructures and tell me if your opinion changes.   the differences are slight but they are there.

at a bare minimum, the T6x is not stronger than a W510.   no way.

 

lol, there is no WAY I will tare apart both my friends W510, and my T61 down to the substructure, so you win

 

If you are talking about main system substructures by themselves (not including the top casing + screen rollcage of the T61 widescreen), then the W510 and T510 is stronger.

 

Nope! Wrong, I had the original IBM version, no Lenovo anywhere, I believe the later versions of the X41's were handed over to Lenovo, not a lot of them though.

 

Did anyone mention that IBM's being paid by Lenovo for the ThinkPad customer support? Crappy support major markets = IBM's fault.

 

i have an X32 with a lenovo logo on the bottom and it easily pre-dates your X41.

having an older decal doesn't change history.

 

I think Lenovo logo looks pretty good, it was probably designed to make it more appealing to the global market and make it look more professional.

 

Instead of the multi-colored IBM logo... I always liked it.



Though admittedly I like the blue one better.

 

the blue IBM was used on lot of the desktop systems.

 

Perhaps.. but every other laptop was exponentially higher in price as well.. where a T43 was 3 grande, going against a Dell that was at least 2 grande in 2005/6, and the T21 i still have and that still works, was 4 grande back in 1999, they may have been a bit more "premium" or high end snack bracket back then, but i think the prices have simply decreased exponentially

 

Part of me wishes that IBM still made ThinkPads. I admit to being nostalgic about IBM products. However generally I consider this a foible of mine, not a strength. That being said, when you purchased an IBM PC in the late 80s and early 90s, you received a machine that was built to last a long time. I will point to the Model M keyboard as a design zenith, and I personally own several Model Ms that just keep on working perfectly 20 years later. The Model M is built like a tank and IMO the best keyboard ever designed. But I digress; I mean to say that I have a soft spot for 1) the early and magical days of the PC revolution, and 2) the industrial design of early IBM PC products. There is the fact that those IBM products, including early ThinkPads, were well out of my budget’s ability to pay for them while Lenovo’s products are today within my budget. So I suppose that I think it would have been neat if IBM could have somehow cut costs and continued to produce ThinkPads at the kinds of prices that Lenovo is currently doing. The fact that many members of the IBM design team are at Lenovo is heartening.

 

Buckling spring: I see that your a buckling spring fan, I wish IBM sold their buckling spring patent to lenovo as well, and let lenovo mass-produce that so more people can the superiority of mechanical keyboards instead of the rubber rubbish they produce these days.

 

well i guess IBM's strength is to bring R&D onto market and use the first mover advantage, but its marketing and sales strategy to the general consumer market is not the best, as compared to say Dell, HP or Acer.

IBM is good at making avantgarde products, but not at cutting costs. This is like saying that Benz should cut cost to directly compete with Hyundai, they obviously can do that, but their brand value is not associated with cheap cars. By the same token, IBM is not going to be a US version of the Acer, it is not in their interest to do that.

Most company that invests heavily in research and development and bringing new and quality products to market, don't really like to compete in s pricing war with companies that sell cheap 'me too' products, as they have to recuperate their R&D investment.

 

Benz have been making cheaper cars to target the younger generation with smaller budget such as the A-class to directly compete with Hyundai and other smaller cars.

However, unlike cars. Most people do not use laptop as a expression of status and wealth. Therefore the analogy does not connect. Nobody would give a sh1t if you have a thinkpad W701ds with the best component, however having a Benz or ducati might get you laid.

So IBM as a laptop maker, not as a luxury product maker, failed because they could not compete with other laptop brand to bring value to consumers. And they were making a loss, so they had to either sell the brand off or discontinue the brand.

 

Benz A class is a direct competition for Hyundai? are you kidding me?

Laptop are not used as an expression of status and wealth? hum...

I think for a long time Thinkpads were an expression of status... the status that you were a professional or business person...

Apple products is a status symbol...

Once upon a time laptops were a sign of wealth, due to the high purchase price, but the commodisation of the laptops have removed much of their former wealth symbol.

Regarding getting laid and stuffs, not everyone likes Bike or know what the whole background on Ducati.

You could easily say that Vertu phones have no connotation to the expression of status and wealth. Since lot of people don't even know what the Vertu phone brand stands for.
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Also, Lenovo doesn't manufacturer any of their parts directly, they are all contracted out to CM. Also, Lenovo wouldn't want the buckling spring keyboards as they are too reliable and never break, in which case Lenovo is not going to make a lot of profit out of them. This is one reason why none of the tier one laptop companies even offer this sort of keyboards. Accessories purchase forms a large part of revenue for most companies, and profit margin on these are usually higher than the main computer and laptop line they sell.

 

Don't want to sound off topic but I have to agree with lead_org since the Mercedes Benz A-Class is a "Premium Hatchback" competing against the likes of the BMW 1-Series and Audi A3. The A-Class while is Mercedes lowest priced offering, is itself not cheap unless you happen to be with fortunate wealthy backgrounds. I don't think it was ever in Mercedes mind to compete against Hyundai as its direct competitor (not disrespecting the brand of course) as they generally build affordable everyday cars for the masses.

The ThinkPad's in this case would be competing against the likes of the Dell Latitudes and HP Elitebooks to be the notebook of choice in the business segment. The Merc A-Class vs Hyundai (let's say i20) would be like comparing the ThinkPad T410 against the Dell Inspiron 14R. Completely different classes targeting against different segments.

 

I am using all Lead org's quotes here and this is the first disagreement I've ever had with him.

First of all, some of my background. I was a VMS Engineer for the secong largest computer company and I'd like to provide some food for thought.

I don't come from a place where prices and computers really mix. I do feel that you get what you pay for. For this reason, I see Lenovo (and most of the other computer companies) differentally then most people do. I do no look for price at all. I look to see what a computer than I want costs, in the style that I want, with the features that I want and pay that price without any price questions. THE important thing is the ability to get the job done which will be related to computering, done. The I move to the next task. PRICE is never an issue, the issue is computing.


"IBM was a great technology innovator and has the R&D to match, but it is not a great consumer product marketer, as it deals more in B2B (Business to Business) area than B2C (Business to Consumer)."


With this, I agree with IBM's position.I find that in no way am I interested in talking to consumers.

"I think IBM realises that in the recent year, as electronic products got cheaper, hence why IBM happily outsources its technology and do joint ventures in high tech technology R&D and manufacturing (i.e. CPU manufacturing and design)."

Here, IBM and I will part as I am interested in computing and that's it.

"You admire IBM Thinkpads but yet are not willing to pay for it, then you purchase the Lenovo Thinkpads and mourn about things lost when it was under IBM, but clearly benefited more from the transaction with Lenovo at the helm. In which case maybe people like you whom admire IBM Thinkpad so much to actually pay something closer to what IBM was selling their thinkpads at, and instead of chasing bargains from the other side of the world. I call this double standards."

I am quite willing to pay for a good machine. If you've heard me gripe about prices, my complaints are always focused on the attention people pay to price. I'm not interesred at all in that. I'm interested in being able to get the job accomplished. That however is the center of my disagreement. My concern is having to listen to people who are concerned about prices.


" i think Lenovo could easily produce a product that match and exceed the IBM 'older' Thinkpads. But not lot of people are willing to outlay the kind of cash necessary to get a laptop, when a laptop half or one third of the price could perform just as well."

I am. I want a good machine and I see that I'm less likely to get one now that the prices/quality is coming down over prices.


"IBM is good at making avantgarde products, but not at cutting costs. This is like saying that Benz should cut cost to directly compete with Hyundai, they obviously can do that, but their brand value is not associated with cheap cars. By the same token, IBM is not going to be a US version of the Acer, it is not in their interest to do that."

Nor is mine. I'm not even interested in participating in these conversations. It's not that I'm wealthy because I'm not, but I do believe in "you pay for what you get".

"Most company that invests heavily in research and development and bringing new and quality products to market, don't really like to compete in s pricing war with companies that sell cheap 'me too' products, as they have to recuperate their R&D investment."

This is true. You can see why a technologist spends less time here. There is less for a tecnologist to do. Concerns seem to revolve around money as opposed to computing.

Renee

 

Remember, if you answer yes, you also have to answer the second question.

"Does anyone wish they still paid the IBM price for Thinkpads?"

I think IBM made a great product. Just remember what a ThinkPad Z60 or T60 cost when sold by IBM, and then look at what the T61 cost (or the T400 and T500 if you prefer) throughout their life-cycles when produced by Lenovo.

I'm also still happy with my T400 that I've owned for around 14 months now, and my wife is happy with the T61 I handed down to her, which is a little over two years old.

 

That seems to be the reoccuring theme. That they were pricey back then.

 

""Does anyone wish they still paid the IBM price for Thinkpads?""

This is part of my issue. I don't care what the price is, I just want a durable, high quality machine to do computing with. If it costs alot. it costs a lot. Why take up your time, which is precious worrying about how much a machine costs?

Renee

 

We all need money to survive, and for profit business needs revenue and profit to survive. Renee you maybe one of those person whom will pay the IBM's asking price for Thinkpads, but only a handful of customers like you, is not going to keep Lenovo's business afloat (Thinkpad is not a haute couture brand), when most customers whom are price conscious will move to the Dell and HP business laptops.

Panasonic Toughbooks for all intents and purposes produce some of the most well constructed laptops is nowhere to be seen on the Top 10 laptop manufacturer list in terms of sales volume.

Lenovo like other tier one laptop manufacturer aims to make profit through volume and NOT through high profit margin.

 

"Lenovo like other tier one laptop manufacturer aims to make profit through volume and NOT through high profit margin."

And I am saying that that's NOT why I buy computers and that capitalism is basically limited to this kind of thinking.

"We all need money to survive".

Lead Org, I recognize that you are a thinking person but have you ever considered the basic circularity of this?

Renee

 

I have a few questions.

1)Back when IBM was in charge, was there any other business grade laptops out there?

2) Did the IBM laptops have any real advantage over the competition as far as features besides being a business grade latop?(GPU, CPU, screen, battery life, etc...)

 

I don't care that IBM is not making ThinkPad...though I love the ThinkPad brand. Complex reasons - not worth getting into this at the present time. I think it is still possible to customize a Lenovo-made ThinkPad to a degree where it almost matches the so-called "legendary" qualities of the "original" ThinkPad. When I say customize, I specifically mean - (1) the keyboard (2) creaks (3) screen if you are up for the hassle (4) HDD (5) RAM (6) and other mods of which I read on these forums, but don't have the courage to do!

I would pay the "IBM" price for ThinkPads - if I have the money, that is, which, thankfully, I have at the moment. Earlier I did not and I contented myself by just lusting for one.

I LIKE ThinkPads! I like their form factor - call me strange, but I like think the TP design is very aesthetic. I like the peculiar, but unmistakeable, compactness (yes, this is true even of the W and the 15.4" version of the T/R series) of the ThinkPads. I like the fact that generally ThinkPads run cooler than other makes of machines. I also like the name "ThinkPad"!

 

IBM price for Thinkpads in India would make it around $5000 USD including various tariffs and taxes.