Debunked - R.I.P Magnesium Rollcage on Thinkpad

I dropped my T61p from about 4 feet onto concrete last week. It scuttled half the plastic casing and the force was so strong that the ribbon cable on the LCD panel dislodged! No damage to the internals, even though it looks like the mutilated T-800 from Terminator. I'd say the roll-cage did a stand-up job.

That said, I'm really torn right now. I've been looking forward to getting a W510, but I really value vertical workspace and durability (I treat my laptops like red headed step children), but the move to 16:9, lack of switchable graphics, and a potentially weakened durability... Maybe I'll wait a while before upgrading.

 

It is not trivial if there are tens of millions been made in the entire lifetime of a product, laptop is after all a commodity product, every dollar saved means a lot in the long run. (You can contact Flexitronics about this, since they are the manufacturers responsible for casting the magnesium rollcage and moding the CFRP base case of the thinkpads).

Nowhere as expensive as it use to be..... but is it still more expensive than casting Magnesium???

Do you know that manufacturing of the CFRP materials involve more steps than casting magnesium??? And autoclaving of the formed CFRP materials is also required?

If making CFRP materials is indeed so cheap, why don't all the high performance cars all use this materials for their body panels and chassis rather steel, aluminium and/or polymers.... rather than some near 1 million dollar sports car.......

 

The body of the case will still use magnesium rollcage, the top will use some other materials, probably a mixture PC/ABS and hopefully CFRP...... i have dropped my R61 without the top rollcage and it is fine.

 

car insurance is useless when you don't have an accident.....

 

When did I say CFRP chassis's are cheaper than a metal based forging? I didn't! Computer chassis's really aren't comparable to a car body panel or even chassis. Cars use a lot more material (most of which is "filler", especially when dealing with a body panel), and deal with active forces on the vehicle (suspension, engine, aero, ect).

I work with CFRP as well as aluminum and steel (never have worked with magnesium). I am not an expert in any of them but I have machined, forged, and cast parts and layed up CFRP structures.

 

Making couple of parts is different to making million of parts..... just like running a home business is nowhere as complex as running MNC...... For a business that churns out so many parts for a particular laptop, every minute saved per part manufactured and dollar saved would mean a lot. Also, having a process that churns a lot of defective part is not going to acceptable to these companies, they all run on six sigma philosophy.

FYI, i have also done a lot of casting and manufacturing of parts when i was in University....

Also, if Lenovo dropped the top magnesium rollcage due to cost, they are not going to replace it with even more expensive material. Lower selling price and more expensive material costs are counterintuitive for a profit making organisation.

 

Great, meh, inside we all know Lenovo is going to milk ThinkPad branding for all it could feasibly generate before it turns into generic piece of trash like other competitors... This really does me off a whole lot, but well whatever, maybe IBM will buy it back...

 

LOL, then why did you buy a ThinkPad? If it truly didn't matter then you could have just bought a Dell, albeit there are other reasons to buy a ThinkPad.

 

Also, considering everything they take away always has this ridiculous excuse to cover it up as being an innovation rather than a cost reduction measure.... i hate when companies do that, like how Apple now has a matte screen option, but charges $50 extra for it.

 

this thread has gone from speculation, to drama, to sounding like whatever class is required for engineering students who couldn't get into materials 101.   it would be a better use of time to wait and see how the new systems actually hold up to tests rather than complain about something everyone is speculating about.

matt kohut already said he'd still stand on a new thinkpad or run over one with a truck just the same as an old one.   he may not be the heaviest guy i know but that's still a lot of weight to put on a supposedly inferior rollcage.

like i said, "R.I.P or good riddance?"   you might not hate the new technology as much as you think.

opinions are better formed from facts, not speculation.

 

IBM will never buy back Thinkpad range, for the fact that the laptop industry is such a low profit industry. IBM have milked all they could from Think brand before it was passed onto Lenovo, and Lenovo bought it to increase their global presence. Before Lenovo bought thinkpad, no one outside of China even knew who Lenovo is. Some people still think Lenovo is just an off spin of IBM.

Anyway, Since lenovo have kept the bottom rollcage on the Thinkpad, i am happy. The top case is probably going to be made out of one single piece casing like the R500 or the T30, it won't be as stiff as the T61 top case with the PC/ABS and the magnesium rollcage (i loved it, it looks like the structural skeleton of fighter jet craft)... hopefully it will be CFRP and not PC/ABS... but given the fact that the Thinkpad RRP have dropped and more features added, there will be a good chance that it will be just PC/ABS...... or in the really unlikely cases, the thinkpad will be made of single piece Magnesium found on the T4x thinkpads......

 

so there IS a difference between the T400s and the T410s apart from the specs? I mean the build really is different?

 

Yes, in fact, the PC Division was a struggling entity when owned by IBM - especially during the years leading up to the sale. So selling it off was a smart move. And Lenovo was smart to buy the PC group (mainly ThinkPad and ThinkCentre)

Lenovo has mostly been doing the right thing with the ThinkPad range, making the ThinkPad series more attainable, marketable and changed minor things which would either save costs or improve the features. As any sound and professional company they scrutinized product management and on certain accounts converted the sometimes overengineered/overcostly IBM ThinkPads to Lenovo ThinkPads which were still better than most of the competition, whilst being more profitable. If IBM still owned the PC division today, they would have been forced to do the same if they wanted to survive and keep shareholders happy.

Lenovo has mostly stuck to the "don't fix it if it is not broken" principle - which is a sound approach given the goodwill hidden in the ThinkPad name and products.

Many kids/students/mainstream customers nowadays take it for granted that they are able to buy a ThinkPad - especially in the US due to very low pricing. However, before Lenovo took over, the ThinkPads were priced and marketed differently and the majority of customers were corporate clients. Some of the new customers obviously don't appreciate that they are so easily able to obtain a new ThinkPad as they don't necessarily know the history.

The potential issue which is showing its face now, is that Lenovo is taking the ThinkPad evolution one step further and introducing IMO foolish and provocative attempts like the Edge in the anticipation that they will gain more sales. I only think they will partly move sales from their other ranges such as IdeaPads over to ThinkPads and in turn not gain much more revenue/profit - and at the same time gradually dilute the ThinkPad brand.

Another scenario is that they might deliberately gradually transition their other ranges into the ThinkPad range and be left with only one range, spanning from mainstream laptops to premium business models.

Time will tell if they smarten up. I think and hope they will. Time will tell.

 

That is not good news !!
I hope they replace it with something better, aluminum ?

 

Having looked at the issue further, there are three options that are currently used by thinkpad for their top case material when the magnesium rollcage are not used.

ABS/PC like the R500
CFRP like on the X301/T400s/X200s
Single piece magnesium top case like the T4x or W700.

There is a good chance that the Single piece magnesium exterior will come back again.

 

The T410s have the same construction as the T400s, little has changed apart from more ports, switchable graphics card, better graphics card, etc. So the CFRP for the top case, GFRP for the side wall and magnesium casing for the bottom still stays as it is.

 

Do we know if the T510 has a better graphics card? I've heard some say it could be a step back (not even sure if that's possible).

 

Don't know about the graphics card, it won't be step back, the ATI 3850 used on the T500 is pretty old. It will definitely be a step forward, but by how much no one knows until it is tested.

 

Okay, good enough for me. As long as they're moving forward in the gpu department (I need to get my Source fix...call of duty would be nice too) then I'll probably stick with ThinkPad.

My only other gripe at this point is the screen. Hopefully we'll get some better quality this time around.

 

i heard that the 16:9 LCD on the T510 is a definite improvement on the T500...

 

Well I think the answer from Matt Kohut #71 is gonna end this thread:

T510 / W510 has the next Generation Hybrid glass fiber/carbon fiber Roll Cage just like the T410s/T400s/X200s. In the bottom is our Roll Cage to protect the rest of the system. The T410 is a PC-ABS plastic top with the bottom Roll Cage inside.

 

How does this fiber compare with the mg rollcage?

 

Not quite sure, a quick search found x200s_datasheet.pdf which claims:

• Next Generation ThinkPad Roll Cage technology (X200s
models) made of carbon and glass fiber. A similar
structure is being used in Formula 1 race cars and in
the latest airplanes

 

carbon fiber is A LOT stronger and lighter than steel, so this is a good thing - unless you want a t410

glass fiber (fiberglass) is a lot lighter than steel, but doesn't bend like steel will (it will crack)

I'm not sure exactly how the mixture of the two works, but I'm sure the cost is comparable to the magnesium (the carbon fiber materials are nowhere near cheap, glass fiber are a bit cheaper) - and most likely a better choice than the magnesium. Carbon fiber is great if it is under tension (like, you're standing on the lid - but who does that)

I much rather prefer that to magnesium personally.

 

Well, I guess we will have to switch to:
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=5453&p=2

 

Wow, so it seems that the new laptops (excluding the T410) will have the current construction design of the X301, and T400s, and the people who will want a regualr T410 will have just the ABS plastic top instead of the roll cage, but will still keep the roll cage on the bottom. Oh well, you can't ask for everything I guess.

 

MikesDell - you misunderstood.   the T410 will have the same Mg cage with PC+ABS skin just like the T400.   if i'm not mistaken, part numbers for these components will be the same on both systems.

 

Well the construction of those thinkpads was better, meaning thicker materials. Now with all the budget cuts and trying to make things as cheap as possible having every little thing in place is nice.

I for have been saved. Mine was dropped as well as stepped on by my niece and the screen still works perfectly.

I hope its only the netbooks as I have used a few chiklet keyboards and they are a pain to use to say the least. As for the manufactures I understand that its inevitable to make the switch, but lenovo stayed with 4:3 longer then anyone else and now it seems a few other OEMs are sticking with 16:10 for certain business models why not follow tradition and make t, x, and w all 16:10 for one more generation? But again I understand how saving money on screens and charging the same money or more for laptops is common business sense.

I love my thinkpads screen. I think what so many people forget when they buy a thinkpad is this is NOT a multimedia laptop. This is a business machine meant for pumping out work related things whether that be email and office stuff or coding applications. The screen I have in mine is as vibrant as the WUXGA extra bright glossy screen I have in my dell, but then again the difference between my t400 and all those fancy screens is pretty slight at best. Plus I have no issues playing a game or watching a movie on the thinkpad and no washout or quality issues to complain about. So to be honest i think most are overexagerating/not realizing what they bought.

I understand they have to follow the market and all, but that is for the consumer lines not the thinkpad line. Thinkpads have been for ~18 years a workhorse to get the job done and a business Icon. No flash or fancy need apply. For me I want to log in open my RDPs and compile code while reading email and occasionally Ill watch a movie or play a game. The latter is rare and not intended for my machine. When lenovo follows the market with consumer models thats fine as its 100% warranted. But adding flashy features that have long been despised on business class notebooks, well then they over stepped and stopped following the market. For those ~18 years it has been matte screens, traditional keyboards, magnesium roll cages/strong construction(pre roll cages), and all the power and tools you need to WORK and get the job done. Taking away any of these is a big no no in my book as it takes away from what the design was meant to accomplish. So taking 10% screen real estate away, a comfortable keyboard that works very well, glossy screens that can only be used in certain conditions and removing ruggedness from a thinkpad its many many steps in the wrong direction and basically ruining the idea of a thinkpad. At that point they might as well make it a consumer line after all that.

 

A good CFRP chassis is significantly stiffer and marginally lighter. A poor CFRP chassis can easily be heavier and less stiff than its metal counterpart.

 

GFRP (3 dollars/kg) is cheaper per kg weight than CFRP (50 to 120 dollars/kg), and the young's modulus is lot less 150 GPa for CFRP to 26 GPa for GFRP, but that may vary depending on the weave patter, length of fiber, quality of fiber and the fiber to binder ratio. Thinkpads have traditionally used the shredded carbon fiber from Toray industries, which supplies the carbon fiber used by Boeing on their dreamliner.

The CFRP and GFRP use special weave pattern for their panels and structure, while the CFRP and GFRP used in Thinkpads have no weave pattern, it is just random short cut fibers impregnated into the polymer binder/filler.

 

Lord knows I wouldn't have been able to afford a Thinkpad without Lenovo. (I got the Ferrari 4005 on sale... major sale... and ok it was my parents money but still...). It's been great for me besides the Swiss cheese keyboard, which Mark offered up the replacement of a T61 keyboard. The only things I could see as major mistakes on Lenovo's part, besides the SL series, was going to that "weight saving keyboard" and dropping the switchable graphics on most of the laptops. Their screens have to be a delicate tight rope given the majority of screens made are matte, costs, form factor, desirability, etc. The 16x9 thing is regrettable but not exactly their fault. They can't just take whatever stock they would have used for T500's and 400's: those stocks probably run out by June. So Lenovo is doing a good job IMHO

Oh and Buy the way... The T500 uses a 3650. I WISH it was a 3850

 

yes the graphics card is the 3650 and not the 3850.....

 

oh well, I'm deffinatly not touching a thinkpad untill the design is proven, and even then, I'm really starting to like my elitebook 8530p It's solid (much stiffer than my T500), decently priced, STANDARD 3year global warrenty, it doesn't flex! and the screen is Awesome!

well we will see, I don't have lenovo ruled out but if this change is for the worse I think i will write off the thinkpad completely.

 

QFT. And it was not so long ago either. Just 3.5 years ago, I was looking for a laptop with WUXGA/UXGA screens. Thinkpads were costing $2500+, and were out of my reach. I ended up with a 17" Dell Precison M90 with WUXGA screen with a rare business coupon that brought the price under $2000.
Just 5.5 years ago, T30s with CRAPPY screens were $3000+.

Um, no. The lid in the T4x was flimsy. The chassis was not rigid enough leading to the infamous GPU issue.
The T30 was the last rugged thinkpad. But people preferred T4x because of its form factor.

I use laptops for coding/email etc too. I dont game.
I HATED the 14.1 SXGA+ screen in T30, T4x, T60. Really crappy screens. Once I saw how good the WUXGA 17" screen in my dell precision M90 was, I could never go back. Crappy contrast ratio, poor color reproduction. I code on a black background. Older Thinkpads had a washed out screen.
But well, they did offer gorgeous IPS screens.

 

they are still washed out, I do everything with a black background, (linux command line, C, C++ etc.) that's work stuff and it's also the reason I bought a different laptop. IPS on laptops is sadly dead...

 

Post T60, I have only seen a WXGA+ screen ona T61, it seemed fine wrt contrast ratio. What screen do you have ?

 

What I never undestood is why Lenovo won't offer more screen options. Different lines of work require different hardware. I work with images and spectrograms alot, so accurate color reproduction and contrast are super important. However, I almost never use my laptop outside or in brightly lit rooms, so having a matte screen isnt really an advantage for me. I'd love if they offered a glossy rgb-led screen that Dell offers on their Precision M4400 line along with a bunch of matte options.

Thinkpads with only matte panels as an option are just as bad as Apple macbooks only being available with big shiny glassy screens with no other options. This whole attitude that people have that Lenovo "dilutes" the brand by simply offering more options for people stikes me as a bit reactionary and extreme.

And BTW: the carbon fiber lid on T400s is much better than old magnesium version on T400 (I have both). Much thinner, sleeker and still super strong.

 

the same material used in Formula 1 cars and airplanes, this statement gives ignorant customers the false ilusion of exclusivity, there's really nothing all that groundbreaking with fibreglass or carbon fibre, the former being quite a bit more idiot proof and cheaper to use. I've helped build boats before and as you know most modern boats have at least a layer of a certain weave fibreglass embedded in epoxy or polyester resin, it's easy to obtain, so is any epoxy or polyester resin, if you want to make you ThinkPad have that nice fibreglass texture, just cut a piece to size (fine weave) coat your ThinkPad lid with epoxy (sand off plastic first) and align the piece of fibreglass with it... then apply epoxy until invisible... simple as that, (maybe get some acetone and give it a wipe after it's dried to get the greasy sublimate that is left over from epoxy/resin reactions)... simple... there, you get premium technology. In case you were wondering, i was just kidding, but it could actually be done.

 

That statement is not inaccurate tho :\ As they do use CF on formula 1 cars and airplanes - as well as regular cars too to save weight (but it's damn expensive and doesn't come on any cheap car ) - Many people don't know what CF or GF is, so they put it in dumb terminology so they are dazzled

Carbon fiber and fiberglass are great materials to use > magnesium or other metals

CF is much stronger than steel (or magnesium for that matter), fiberglass is cheap and also lightweight - the new thinkpads have a lower starting price than previous generation - there's no reason not to be happy about it

Anyway, not ground breaking - but an improvement

 

Acetone eats away at epoxy... dunce!

CF isn't hard to use. It is extremely difficult to use correctly. A proper CF structure requires significant analysis because CF is not homogeneous.

Saying CF is much stronger than steel isn't very accurate. It's tensile strength is much higher per unit weight and per cross sectional area but its strength in other directions isn't.

 

Perhaps, but T4x definitely wasn't any thicker than the models following the roll caged T series. They had their own chassis flaws, but it wasn't due to a lack of mag LCD roll cage.

Can you say that it was the roll cage that saved the screen? I have dropped my T41p before and the screen still worked. The plastic must have saved it too

Have you tried the thinkpad chicklet yet? I am going to reserve judgment until I do. I don't know the manufacturer numbers sticking with 16:10, but it can't be effective for them continually offering different sizes an aspect ratios of the same model as they did before... I am willing to live with the change in aspect ratio--let them spend the savings on making the laptops cheaper or invest in value elsewhere.

I would question if you have seen the nicer screens available out there now. Glossy doesn't equal better, but there are certainly better glossy displays than the matte thinkpad's. Compare it side to side with a Dell RGBLED 100% gamut display or a MPB or Sony, and the difference is pretty apparent. Whether the difference is important to you is entirely another matter. I am an architect, so I do value colour rendition--though you may feel that I do not fall within your definition of a Thinkpad's target market. Regardless, it really ought not be so difficult to offer a better selection. I am glad they appear to now.

I agree, but dont think they have compromised on those core values in this latest model range.

matte screens - are they not offering matte screens on the T/W series any more?

traditional keyboards - from what we know, still the exact same as previous gen, and from reviews of the chiclet keyboard, they have the same positive tactile feedback.

magnesium roll cages/strong construction(pre roll cages) - no body knows yet, and even if the replacement isn't 100% as strong, again, i argue about the usefulness of the mag cage in the LCD...

and all the power and tools you need to WORK and get the job done - well clearly I dont think this is a problem.

So I mean, I dont understand why everyone is moaning so much now. We haven't even seen how the lineup really looks and from the specs, these current Thinkpads still meet your (and my) core definition. Yes they are a little different, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think you can still get what you want from them. I am pretty excited about the W510 with the new LCDs and 4 ram slots and the T410S with discrete graphics, they look like dream machines to me!

 

"Originally Posted by Renee
I've got a t61p and it has a roll cage....but.

Why are you all worried about roll cages? Thank god, I've never dropped my
T61p, but the roll cage has not saved anyone. After anyone's computer is unfortunate enough to take a fall, does the roll cage really save them from any thing? Perhaps in questionable cases-yes. But I question the value of rollcages.

Renee"

"LOL, then why did you buy a ThinkPad? If it truly didn't matter then you could have just bought a Dell, albeit there are other reasons to buy a ThinkPad."

Well at last, an easy question to answer.....

I bought the thinkpad because it was a performer. I bought it absolutely loaded and I bought the fastest t61p they sold.. Certainly the lack of cosmetics was a plus but I didn't buy my Thinkpad to drop it and thankfully I haven't yet.

 

I can understand CFRP and GFRP roll cage top being incorporated in the high end machines like T400s,T410s,x301,x200s,W series but why include it in T510 and not include it in the smaller sibling T410. It doesn't seem to make sense to me. If I understand it correctly difference between T410 and T510 is primarily the screen size with different configurable options available. Why not include CFRP/GFRP across the entire range and be done with the discrepancy ?

 

because the T410 is recycling parts already being used in the T400 where the T510 utilizes an entirely new chassis design.   had the T510 used the same 15.4" 16:10 platform, it would have used the older magnesium upper rollcage as well.

 

Now I get it. So people who want a T410 with the new roll cage design should wait for the next iteration T420 when T420 would come with a 16:9 display or wait for the existing stocks to get over. :wink:

 

I don't think carbon fiber is all that exotic for laptops anymore. My Ferrari 4000 had/has a carbon fiber lid and that is from 2005. You could pressure it and flex the screen in some places. It was/is a fingerprint magnet too.

Didn't the Dell XPS 1530 and 1330 laptops have carbon fiber lids?

 

i thought the XPS 1330 and 1530 has a magnesium lid with aluminium trims.....

 

Lead_Org,

Would you consider re-titling this thread? I think discussion on the evolution of materials used in roll cage components is valuable but since these systems still incorporate magnesium in the lower roll cage, I think the present title may be needlessly causing alarm here.

Food for thought...

Thanks!

Mark

 

Well all I can go by is all the die hard thinkpad owners and how alot of them say quality has gone down hill. Personally my t400 is constructed very well and I love it! But in all honesty hind sight has me thinking I should have gotten a 12in or 17in.

My dell has a great ultra bright glossy WUXGA screen that is great indoors or low light areas, but a pain to use outside or by a window. But in the comfort of my home or work office its great!

Perhaps, we will never know. All I know is it has survived more then I would have expected.

No I haven't tried a lenovo chiklet, but every other brand that I have tried is a painful experience to say the least. I love the lenovo feel, but its more the spacing and layout then the actual press and feel. Although the press and feel stinks in comparison to normal keyboards.

I wasn't implying that the matte thinkpad screens are the best or even close. Rather I was saying they are more then good enough for the purpose in which the thinkpad was designed around.

An uncomfortable keyboard, glare on a screen while working and lack of the durability alot of us rely on are due to tools being modified and/or taken away. The matte screen is a tool that I use in outdoor or bright window settings. The keyboard is the number 1 input tool along side the trackpoint and being a pain to use is detracting from the value of that tool. Lastly the durability so I need not worry if my niece or future kids get a hold of my thinkpad or if something else unexpected happens I have less to worry about. A thinkpad for me is a tool box, and removing tried and true pieces/tools lowers the value and usability of that set of tools. Again my $.02.

But I will have to agree lets wait and see what the actual line brings us. I promised myself I would not comment like I have until I have actually seen the real thinkpads release or pop up at CES.

 

There are many devices that have a plastic chassis with a single piece of non-structural carbon on the top for the appearance... Don't forget that!