Debunked - R.I.P Magnesium Rollcage on Thinkpad

Matt Kohut from Lenovo have confirmed that Magnesium rollcage on the bottom case of the laptop stay, but the screen would no longer have magnesium rollcage instead be replaced with something else, hopefully CFRP/GFRP...... i was getting heart palpitation for nothing...

 

Ouch.

(10 char)

 

ehhhhhhhhh....I can't brag about it for the new generation anymore. Is it also some weight-saving mesure as well?

 

sad news .... unless they can prove the new design is better.

 

Sa basically just buy a SL and save money,.... and oh yeah don't do a drop test!

 

Yikes - that's a major trade-off. It'll probably be a while 'till we know the real-world changes (reduction?) in durability, but that's not the type of change I was hoping for in the new generation...

Brett

 

i am truly saddened about this news, no matter how strong the PC material will be, the bending stiffness would still be no match for a well designed magnesium chassis (weight to weight basis).......

 

Ugh. The main thing that the rollcage helped prevent was motherboard flex that killed many older Thinkpads.

 

Um... meaning there's no real benefit to keep it? I thought that was one of the selling point of thinkpad.

 

Silly Lenovo.... don't ruin the ThinkPad name

I would pay more to get something better built and I'm sure the same goes for most of you.

 

Do you think most Thinkpad users really pushed the magnesium cage toward it's limits? Will they easily notice the difference with ABS plastic?

 

and previous to that the T4x thinkpad had a magnesium top case and a Carbon Fibre reinforced polymer bottom case........ now we have to make do with Polycarbonate case like the SL series....... i am sure everyone whom buys a T series thinkpad for what it is, wouldn't mind paying 100 USD more for a magnesium rollcage if it came to that.......

Lenovo is competing on price and feature, but not quality.... anyone whom keeps a thinkpad for more than few years, how how important chassis quality is for a laptop's longevity, especially in large format laptops. One thing that sucks about consumer laptops is that the quality of chassis and case material don't stand up to the wear and tear, and ultimately fails because of that.

And it would be a shame if the new Thinkpad laptop can't survive the rigours that most people put on their machines.

 

at least i know the difference between my t42p and a 08/15 consumer laptop blind folded. let's wait and see

 

i was under impression that latest Lenovo's models such as x301, x200s and t400s already got rid of magnesium roll cages. They are advertised in all spec sheets to have "next generation thinkpad roll cage" made out of carbon-fiber/glass fiber composite (aka plastic?).

I bet the new chassis will use same stuff as x200s/t400s

 

These model use a mixture of magnesium, carbon fibre reinforce polymer and glass fibre reinforced polymer rollcage and casing material.... not just plain PolyCarbonate like SL does. The CFRP and GFRP are more expensive than magnesium, so if magnesium was dropped for cost reason, i doubt they would use more expensive material to save cost.

 

That is the whole reason why I have been looking at the Thinkpads for my next notebook. I'm 38 years old I don't want "bling" I want reliability and duribility.

 

Rejoice again, the Magnesium bottom chassis stay, the top magnesium rollcage gets replaced with unknown material (presumably PC like thinkpad R500)..... CFRP bottom case may also go.....

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I willl miss the magnesium roll cage no doubt, but if Lenovo can maintain the strength of the notebooks and keep the design thin (less than an inch), and maintain the keyboard quality, I'd consider buying one. But if going to a plastic chassis means Thinkpads will be thicker or not as strong as the magnesium chasis Thinkpads, then there will be very little to differentiate them from business notebooks from Dell or HP. Mind you, Lenovo Thinkpads always seemed significantly cheaper than offerings from Dell or HP (business class notebooks that is).

Some areas where Lenovo needs to improve:
Even if Lenovo is able to switch to a plastic chasis and maintain the high quality of the Thinkpad brand I doubt they will make any progress on what I see as their two biggest weaknesses; screen quality and marketing. Thinkpad screens on the T series seem to be have inferior viewing angles, and more washed out colors than their competitors. I’ve never understood why Lenovo thinks they can offer a poor screen on a premium notebook. There are a few exceptions to this, but every Thinkpad should have a high quality matte screen. Lenovo also seems to fail miserably on marketing the Thinkpad brand. There are consumers that want to buy a quality notebook that will last them for years, but they want to pick it up, try out the keyboard. Lenovo’s lack of any retail presence is a mistake. Surely if apple can sell macbooks at a premium through the retail channel other manufacturers can too. If BestBuy has no interest in carrying Thinkpads I’m sure high end camera chains would have been successful. I can easily see someone laying down $1000 plus for a DSLR and a Thinkpad to go with it. If Lenovo wants to only sell Thinkpads to consumers through their online site then they should make damn sure the buying experience is second to none. Specifically Lenovo need to ensure; they list accurate specification information, have reasonable shipping times, and handle returns in a clear and simple fashion. The practice of listing a high price for a product, and then having a perpetual sale that knocks off 20%-30%, and forcing consumers to hunt for online coupons or use an epp site that may or may not offer returns must also be abandoned.

That's my rant, hope it's not too off topic.

 

Link please?

 

@Lead_org,
If you're going to edit your original post then you should edit it as an addendum leaving the original part intact so it doesn't look like we are loosing our collective minds over a relatively small design change, LOL.

 

http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox...eed:+lenovoblogs/insidethebox+(Inside+the+Box)

read statement 38 by Matt Kohut.

 

let's not forget that lenovo brought the rollcage concept to the thinkpad.   the design has been made lighter yet is just as strong.

 

Well that would be case if they use the CFRP or GFRP to replace the Mg Rollcage, but wouldn't happen if they use Polycarbonate. If Lenovo had moved the entire thinkpad construction to Polycarbonate from Mg rollcage and CFRP bottom case for the W and T series, then it would hard to imagine it would be as equally strong, without having a very thick Polycarbonate chassis.

But matt kohut have confirmed that the bottom mg rollcage stays, and the top case would be using a new material presumably it would be like the W700 screen case in design.

 

Wow, this is dissapointing news. Although since I bought an X301 a few months ago, I won't be buying another laptop for a LONG time (at least another 3+ years anyway). However, I do have to say this: I hope Lenovo isn't following the trend of making things lighter/cheaper like they did when they put out the T500 with the crappy keyboards. This reminds me of that story all over again, except this one (no top roll cage) would be less noticeable, well unless you like to drop your laptop alot though lol I'll tell you this, my X301 is defiantly built stronger then even my T61 (even though I know the T61 also has a top roll cage as well) so whatever materials they are using now on thier current laptops is fantastic. I hope they don't ruin it now.

 

I am not sure how this will pan out, but if the top losses the roll cage, that would not be good. If they keep making these kinds of concessions there won't be much reason for people to go for Thinkpads. They used the weight saver keyboard and I think most people will agree that those keyboards are not as good as the T61 and earlier keyboards. Even people who got the stupid foam tape fix, are still getting some flex but not as bad(simple here, poor reinforcement means more flex).
I think some things have improved with the Thinkpads while other things have degraded. I feel that each generation we are loosing something. The machine doesn't come with a 3 year warranty like the past and if they remove the strength of the structure, what do you have?
In any event if the roll cage is removed from the screen, then people will have to be careful about impacts to the back of the screen.

This is just my personal opinion here, but I have given up paying a lot for laptops anymore(especially after the notorious nVidia GPU issue with my T61p). Maybe I will just give up on laptops completely. The money is better spent on a desktop anyway(unless you have, have, have, to have mobility).

 

What!?!?
He also said no more switchable graphics except on t410s!

How can they not have switchable graphics if the gpu sits on the same pcb as the cpu, it just doesn't make sense.

This is a major benefit to me and may alter my decision greatly :O

 

who said polycarbonate was the material of choice?   polycarbonate isn't a structural material.

 

I agree. There should be an explanation behind this change given that T410s has switchable graphics.

 

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2357591,00.asp

it is posted in that report. Also SL series use a PC chassis with no magnesium reinforcement from what i can gather, so this is not something new. But obviously, the writer posted these stuffs without first getting the fact straight from Lenovo. Another lesson learnt, don't trust the news media that easily....

 

I still have hope in the designing engineers team, after all they're still most of the old faces back in the IBM days. They did replace the magnesium top with the frame inside, so it's better something good this time.

 

Okay lets be honest here. Magnesium may be the lightest of the structural metals but it certainly isn't the best choose for a small cross sectional area chassis because of its low stiffness.

When you use a light material you have to offset its relatively low stiffness with high inertia geometry. This is very common in wheels. However in something like a laptop, where you are trying to span 13-15" with a cross section that is preferably less than 1" thick you are much better off going with a stiffer material like aluminum.

Aluminum has a higher stiffness to weight ratio than magnesium, is significantly cheaper, harder, stronger, better thermal properties, and easier to form.

Composite materials such as CFRP and fiberglass are excellent structural materials. CFRP is more than 10 times stiffer by weight than structural steels.

That is probably hard to say. I would imagine that a good CFPR process would be competitive with magnesium with massive benefits in stiffness.

 

Paul386 got it right.   magnesium alloy has a lot of negatives, one of which being a violent failure when its stress point has been reached (ie: it tends to snap into many pieces).   a high-quality 2- 6- or 7-series aluminum alloy tends to be far more resilient and cost-effective.   CFRP also has one of the best strength-to-weight ratios and is an excellent choice for this application.   i like aluminum but really like CFRP.

just because magnesium may have been dropped in the lid doesn't mean the end of the world.   there are better materials out there after all.

R.I.P. or good riddance?   only time will tell.

 

Yes, let's wait to find out the nature of the new materials first before making a judgment.

 

NOO!! JUDGMENT NOW@!!

 

it sounds like they are moving the t410s to be the t-series for "enthusiasts"
and the t410/510 to be the t-series for cost-minded corporate customers

 

I hope that Lenovo has gone through enough R&D to come out with a good alternative.
That's all what we can do for now anyway, hope.

 

helps prevent the notebook from flexing when you pick it up from a corner, and the the magnesium on the back of the display helped when u stacked things on top of the laptop w/o ruining the screen.
as far as im concerned, i have a A20m, which is way tougher than my T43...
my t43, under alot of pressure bends, unlike the a20m... also i can stand and jump all over my a20m, but i would seriously worry about jumping on top of my t43! (and the a20m doesnt have a rollcage afaik, then again, it has a really thick plastic cover)

 

i personally prefer what they did in t400s when they got rid of magnesium plate at the back of the display. still feels very solid and half as thick as old magnesium cover on vanilla t400. Hope they use t400s reinforcement method in the newer models.

 

I've got a t61p and it has a roll cage....but.

Why are you all worried about roll cages? Thank god, I've never dropped my
T61p, but the roll cage has not saved anyone. After anyone's computer is unfortunate enough to take a fall, does the roll cage really save them from any thing? Perhaps in questionable cases-yes. But I question the value of rollcages.

Renee

 

Plastic casing is cheap(er) to replace than the critical components.

 

Well if you stop and think about it, rarely are the more expensive components such as the board actually saved, so what's the difference?
Renee

 

Yet another nail in the coffin...I'm glad I got the thinkpad I have, I was really pumped to be on the thinkpad bandwagon. But now with all these changes I'm starting to think Ill either have to go back to dell business or go for high end consumer models to get quality these days.

So now the list is: chiklet keyboards, 16:9 ratio screens, lack of roll cage on the top, and glossy screens. Looks like i got the last real thinkpad Lenovo made.

 

That is going a little over board isn't it? I think that Lenovo's marketing is better than they think--losing the roll cage, especially over the lcd lid isn't as awful as anyone makes it out to be. Thinkpads before the T60 did not have mag roll cages and many people still prefer the build quality of the older models.

And to second Renee as to the usefulness of the LCD roll cage, has it actually saved anyone's LCD? Other than performing better at the pinch-the-corners-and flex-the-lid test, has anyone benefited in the real world from it?

As for the chicklet keyboards, the review here on notebookreview has been positive, and i believe it's only one some of the cheaper ultra portable systems. And, yes while I really don't prefer the 16:9 screens, the entire industry is headed in that direction, which has been dictated by the LCD manufacturers more than the computer manufacturers (who make much more money cutting panels of this ratio for TVs).

Lastly, the glossy screens--are matte screens no longer an option now? I haven't been keeping track of the new LCD offerings, but the W510's 95% gamut LCD looks like a good change. Hopefully the rest are a step up as well, because though they've been matte, the current screens haven't had too many fans.

I mean, really what is Lenovo to do? They have to go with the flow of the industry. As long as they continue to produce excellent keyboards and input devices, reserved styling, thin chassis, light travel weights, along with good build quality (in whatever material that may be), I think that is enough to keep them from jumping the shark.

 

What does that phrase mean? Never heard anyone say that. Just curious.

 

This episode of "Happy Days" where Fonzie literally jumped a shark.

It has come to be an expression for when a TV show, or anything really, has strayed so far from itself, lost all credibility, and is in an unrecoverable downward spiral.

 

Isn't that all a bit polemic without any reviews?

 

Magnesium young modulus is below that of the CFRP, GFRP, Aluminium (Al =69, Mg = 45), but higher than Polycarbonate or ABS plastic. The price per ton of magnesium is higher than aluminium, PC/ABS but below that of the CFRP, GFRP.

Obviously it is unlikely that you would choose polymer material for the full internal rollcage, due to the limited heat transfer property and low modulus of elasticity. While, the CFRP and GFRP can be used as a rollcage material as in the case of the X301, X200s and the T400s, they are however extremely expensive, manufacturing these composite rollcage are not cheap. So CFRP, GFRP, ABS/PC are out for most of the main models of thinkpads. So basically aluminium and magnesium are the only suitable structural material of the rollcage, due to weight, cost and heat transfer property.

SO the question is why aluminium is not used for the structural material of the rollcage as opposed to the magnesium, if it is cheaper and stiffer? The answer is higher castability and the reduced rate of defects of magnesium makes it more suitable for been casted into the intricate shape it requires.

Benefits of magnesium in castings:

Key advantages of magnesium and its alloys over other materials used in the die casting process are as follows:
1. Most Mg alloys have high fluidity, which allows casting of intricate and thin-walled parts;
2. Magnesium has a low volumetric specific heat compared with aluminum and zinc, which means that magnesium castings cool more quickly, allowing faster cycle times and reducing die wear;
3. Magnesium has a low density, which means that gate pressures can be achieved at moderate pressures;
4. Iron in the dies has very low solubility in liquid magnesium alloys, which reduces the sticking tendency encountered with aluminum. In addition, magnesium die casting alloys contain less heat per volume. As a result of these two factors, dies last two to three times longer than with aluminum.

Cost of a component are not just the price the material is made from, there is also the cost of manufacturing, handling, storage, etc.

Clearly, from that Aluminium is not better than Magnesium from the manufacturing prospective. This is also why aluminium are not used for internal rollcage.

CFRP and GFRP are not as recyclable or have a higher cost than magnesium.

 

Aluminum is extremely easy to forge and cast. Although it may be true that magnesium alloys are easier to forge and cast it is trivial.

A good CFRP process is no where near as expensive as it used to be. Also the material is more expensive per ton, but 1lb of CF will get you A LOT farther than 1lb of 6061 or ZK60A. I have no doubt that CFRP would cost more than a aluminum chassis but I think that its benefits would be substantial enough to make it worthwhile. Most likely the chassis would be CFRP / Aluminum hybrid.

 

well if you did abuse the thinkpad to the point of failures, then Lenovo would surely would void your warranty, and the person would have to bite the nail of getting a new laptop. Thinkpad for all the benefits it has is not a high performance aircraft or car, even 500,000 dollars car don't all use CFRP or titanium for their entire chassis and body panels. So the cost of manufacturing each laptop must be managed carefully to ensure a good return on investment. After all people in the USA (the largest market) only pays so much for their normal run of the mill Thinkpads.

CFRP depending on the carbon fiber length are also one of the most expensive material, this is also why it is just been used by aircraft manufacturers for main structural elements of commercial airplane.

Aluminium is good but just not that good for casting into thin and intricately shaped structure. Unless Lenovo wants to CNC all the parts detail from a solid block of Aluminium alloy....

 

On a side note:
Rollcage in the display doesn't help sht when you're picking up the laptop at the corner while its open! Just yesterday that little piece of plastic cover for the pccard slot broke on mine while I was doing that (too much bending).