Buying ThinkPads in UK/Europe

Hi...

Just wanted to know:

Assume that I am a legal resident of a European country (say, Germany or Italy).

Now, say I bought a CTO machine from the UK-Lenovo website and had the machine shipped to a a friend's UK address (which also means that I am paying VAT). I will be using my own credit card to pay for the machine.

Then after a few weeks when I visit the UK, suppose I pick it up from the UK address (including the bills etc.) and return to my place of residence in Europe.

(1) Am I legally allowed to do this?
(2) Do I have to declare the machine at Customs of the country I am returning to?
(3) Can I claim a refund of the VAT paid in the UK?
(4) The machine (say it is a T410s) comes with a 1-year warranty. I would buy the 3-yr on site, next business day warranty. Would this work in the country of my residence in Europe?

Thanks

 

@4: I ordered my laptop in Germany with all the warranty and support bells and whistles, and it seems to work globally. I assume the same would apply for you.

 

1) It's legal as long it's for personal use and you've paid the relevant taxes on the machine (usually VAT).

2) As long you live within the EU and don't plan to sell off the machine for profit I don't think you need to make any sort of additional declaration on customs as the UK is part of the free trading bloc of the European Union. If they do ask for proof, just show the receipt including the tax (VAT) paid on the machine.

3) If I recall you can only claim back VAT from the UK if you live outside the EU, this wouldn't be applicable to EU residents.

4) As long the machine is IWS eligible it should be fine.

 

@ zuffox and Hearst555...thanks. That is good to know.

 

Hearst555 is correct.


(1) Am I legally allowed to do this?

Yes.

(2) Do I have to declare the machine at Customs of the country I am returning to?

No. Within EU things are quite simple. It's different if you import things from outside of the EU.

(3) Can I claim a refund of the VAT paid in the UK?

No. But on the bright side, regardless of VAT rate differences, you will not be required to pay additional VAT when entering the other EU country.

(4) The machine (say it is a T410s) comes with a 1-year warranty. I would buy the 3-yr on site, next business day warranty. Would this work in the country of my residence in Europe?

Yes as long as it is IWS.


It is significantly easier, more transparent and less bureaucratic than how things can be in India, where I frequently do business. The amount of red tape, complications, subjective decisions and personal incentive requirements my business partners often face from (customs) authorities when bringing goods into India is just ridiculous. There... I feel much better now

Planning to relocate Lines of flight?

 

Best to do it is before 2011 - VAT is going up in the UK from 17.5% to 20% after 4th January and that ThinkPad will become a little bit more expensive from then!

 

ThinkPads are already expensive in UK

I think as long as your machine has IWS you shouldnt have any problems with it and no travel limitations with it. Its not like you have bought many of them and then take them in their sealed boxes in your luggage and try to import them outside EU.
As for VAT reclamation - I know that businesses can reclaim VAT, but have no idea how and what limitations apply.

PS. About customs declaration - supposedly one has to declare goods that he/she imports from other countries that are outside economic zone(?) of the state you are trying to import it into. BUT you can always take your laptop out of the box, turn it on, set it up and voila! Youre done, its your personal computer, its been used and there is no way they can know that you didnt bring it with you from from home country abroad and then back.

Long story short - if youre affraid of customs outside EU putting their hands onto your laptop then simply take it with you in your hand luggage and thats it. If they ask you something you play your role and say its yours and youve had it for a long time and its not being imported and not for sale.

 

This is simply incorrect and I would advise people to be careful about being so casual about this.

If nobody checks when walking through the 'nothing to declare' area, of course you will get away with it. But do not confuse this, with your method being a clear cut way of avoiding the rules. Professional customs authorities nowadays are not stupid and quite often they are quite detailed in their research about products and pricing. Those that fall for the 'trick' you describe may be unprofessional or perhaps too busy scouting for more serious offenses.

In many (if not all) EU countries you have the burden of proof. In other words, if there is a dispute with the customs authorities you will need to provide documentation/proof that the laptop was purchased within EU or if imported from outside of EU, that you have paid duties/taxes on it already.

Simply making the laptop look as if it is used already is not a guarantee in any way that you will not be requested to provide documentation. There have been many cases of people bringing in electronics/laptops from Asia and US to Europe, who have been charged duties/taxes and on top of that slapped with a fine for not abiding to the rules.

 

Yes - No - No - Yes.

Customs: You don't need to declare anything as long as it's for your personal use or a gift. If by chance (very slim) they ask to check your bugs, and by a slimmer chance they are interested in your new in-the-box laptop (usually they don't), you might be asked for proof of purchase. If it's out of the box (backpack), then they cannot, and will not, ask you for anything.

Chances: I have been traveling among EU-UK-USA for the past 7 years and nobody ever asked me for proof of purchase, even for things (gifts) I had in their original box. No question about my personal laptop. Not even when I travelled with 2 of my laptops. And in December I will go (from the US) to UK and then to Greece with 3 laptops… I will let you know how that goes!

 

@lines of flight. When you say upgrading the warranty, do you mean by if you get the on site warranty in UK, is it eligible for onsite in other EU countries?

 

That is correct. I am partial to the onsite warranty because I think it is very convenient. On the Lenovo UK website, after you configure a machine, it comes with a standard 1-yr warranty. But there is also an option to buy the 3-yr onsite warranty and I wanted to know if it would work in Europe too.

Thanks

 

Yes, sometimes it is quite frustrating to work in India with its plethora of rules and laws and layers of bureaucracy.

Relocate? I don't know about that, but there may be a job offer coming up soon. As you can see, one of the things that I am factoring in (unwisely, I guess!) is how to access ThinkPads

One strange thing I noticed is that it is not necessarily the case that Lenovo allows for customizing ThinkPads across Europe. According to the Lenovo website, this seems to the case in a number of EU countries, which is similar to the case in Asia (India).

 

usually, if you purchase the onsite warranty in one country, it does not automatically qualify you for the same thing in another country. If you purchase onsite in UK, you are usually only eligible for the most basic warranty cover in the foreign countries, which is usually back to depot (in some instances you have to pay the courier fees).

So, i would kindly advise you to get the basic 3 years warranty package.

 

So, you are saying that the 3--yr onsite warranty (if bought in the UK) would not be applicable elsewhere in Europe or anywhere in the world? I really need to check this out!

But surely, this won't apply to the IWS that I have on my current machine...right?

 

IWS guarantees you warranty coverage in the specific countries associated with your model no., but not the level of coverage. It has always been like this for as long as i can remember.

Did you get onsite warranty on your R400? If this is the case, then you are only eligible for onsite warranty coverage in India, but not the other countries.

 

This is unfortunately the case. Instead they will offer quite a few pre-configured systems through their resellers, but it is far as attractive as the CTO option in the US. Bottomline when it comes to configurations and pricing, the US is the most attractive. Japan also has CTO and also has some very interesting configurations at times, which sometimes are limited to only the Japanese market - especially for ThinkPad ultraportables.

Lead_org is right. There is no guarantee that onsite will be honored in other countries. I haven't found an official set of rules concerning this - rather it seems hit and miss. As an example I had a warranty request in Thailand for my thinkpad which was purchased in Sweden with onsite warranty. They sent a technician to my hotel.

In China they asked me to go to the closest service center. Rule of thumb don't expect onsite eligibility outside of the country of purchase.

When importing a laptop from i.e. US to EU country duty is no longer applicable, but you still have to pay local VAT (according to official rules). For instance, in the case of Sweden that means 25% and in the case of Germany that means 19%. Laptops are not the main target product of customs as much as other electronics or counterfeit goods may be - let alone serious offenses like drugs, but this does not mean that they cannot ask you for anything if it is out of the box - they have all the authority in the world to check if they want to. That chances may be slim is a different story.

 

This is just theory, an urban myth if you want, which has never been confirmed in practice as far as I know. Imagine, if they ask you to pay VAT for an “open” laptop, then by the same rationale, they can ask you to pay VAT for your Nikon, your PSP, your memory cards, your external hard drive, your sunglasses, even your clothes (and clothes might actually be more relevant between US/Europe)… you know what I mean? It is also very difficult for them to ascertain whether you are subject to VAT- you may just be visiting the country for business, pleasure, or both; or maybe visiting your home country (say you live abroad) - Are you gonna pay VAT then? It's nearly impossible to dissect "importing" from "travelling with your laptop".

 

There have been several cases in Scandinavia and Benelux countries where people have been asked to pay VAT and duties for electronics. Off the top of my head I know of two colleagues myself. When it comes to clothes it may be unlikely if you are wearing it, but I can tell you that people have been asked to document clothing they had in their luggage (several pieces of polo shirts or in another case 3 jackets) and if deemed counterfeit it will be confiscated and fined. What I am saying is don't convert your personal experiences or beliefs into facts.

Sure the risk might be small and maybe even smaller depending on the EU country in question, but it is there and at least people should be mentally prepared for the possibility of having to pay more if they fall into the category.

If they want to go in detail it is quite easy for customs authorities to check if you are an expatriate/foreign national or a local citizen. It is merely a case of showing the passport or one's working permit/residence permit of the country one has relocated to.

 

Admittedly, I have never been through Scand and Benelux.

But are you talking about cases of NEW electronics or USED (personal)? And polo shirts in their pretty packaging or again, used? I’ve never heard of anybody having such a problem with their own stuff.

I am not sure I understand the expatriate/foreign national or a local citizen thing. I mean, I am a citizen of one country, and I legally work there, but I currently live and work in another. I pay taxes in both. I relocate back and forth several times a year, for time periods between one week and several months - how can anybody ever figure out whether I don’t decide to ever go the round way back?

And, I am not talking about personal experiences and beliefs. But rather about chances - what is the chance? One passenger every how many? The chances of this are probably fewer than being air jacked! I agree the custom policy may state one thing, but this is by no means a FACT - fact is what happens in most of the cases.

 

Yeah, my machine came with the 3-year IWS. I think I should call the Warranty folks and clarify. Most likely, they will jsut confirm what you said. I wish they could offer onsite globally (or at least internationally). Would be helpful for people like me who move around from time to time.

 

this will probably raise the cost of onsite warranty quite a bit.

 

@lines of flight - does your credit card have a UK billing address? if it doesn't you will not be able to use the card to make your purchase. Lenovo store is very finicky about the usage of cards

1) if your billing address is not in the country of purchase, you will not be able to use the card (i.e. if your billing address is in India, you cannot use it on the US/UK store)
2) Lenovo creates a big hassle if the shipping address you enter for the order is not listed on your credit card profile with the company.

Best advice - ask your friend to make the purchase (assuming he has a UK based card) and once he does, wire / pay him the money. As long as you are carrying one laptop (it should be unboxed), you do not have to worry about customs etc...

Everyone else has spoken enough about the warranty - I'll hold off on that now

 

Right. Thanks for letting me know about the cc issue. Did not know about that.

 

I had discovered it rather embarassingly. Went to the the lenovo UK site, completed my configuration and when I was asked for the cc information, it bummed out.

later on, I discovered the whole story behind the credit card on the lenovo froums.

best thing for you would be to have your friend buy it and then you pay him. That's what I did

 

I suppose it does not affect the warranty. Does it? And, how do you prove it is your machine? The bill of purchase would be in the friend's name - right? How about if I can use an international debit card? Would that work?

 

No - it does not affect the warranty. I'm assuming that when you upgrade your warranty, it is done on your own name. Also, an intl debit card would not work - your address is not in the UK, you're out of luck!

It's a big pain to get a thinkpad, but the end result is well worth it .

If you're open to pre-configured models, I suggest you try amazon and get it delivered to your friend's address. That approach would work for sure!

 

the warranty follows the machine, not the person whom purchases it.

 

If I wanted pre-configured models, I could buy it from India. I was surprised to see that Thinkpads are not configurable in quite a few European countries. It is configurable in the UK though, which is why I posed the question originally.

 

yeah, you're right. I wanted an x201 with wwan support right out of the box - I knew I could ship it from either UK or US if I wanted to. So, this is what happened:

1) Went to the US lenovo site and started configuring - discovered that the sim card slot / wwan card was locked to either t-mobile or AT&T. I needed an unlocked card so that I could use it here

2) Went to the UK site next - was happy that there was an unlocked version available. Configured it and it came to around 1300 GBP. Was ready to pull the plug on it when I discovered that I couldn't use the credit card there.

3) Called up lenovo corporate sales - I was in for a very rude shock. Forget about WWAN - they told me that they had only core i3 models available

4) went to frontier - they offered me a configuration where I was compromising only on the processor (i wanted a i5-540, they offered i5-520). Big thing was that the model was WWAN ready and hence I could upgrade at a later date. This turned out to be a big disaster (the price was a bigger shocker - it was approx 80,000 INR including taxes)

5) Asked a friend who was in NY at that time to pick one up for me from J&R. This was a pre-built one which almost matched my spec.

Now, I've just got three upgrades left - move to a 9-cell battery, get a wwan card and get an SSD next year. The first and third are easy - the second one - as I'm discovering is getting to be a very difficult thing again.

I hope lenovo does something about this - thinkpads are truly amazing laptops, but the buying experience - especially in india is very pathetic!

 

This is one thing I like about Lenovo and it makes sense for the end user. For example Dell's warranty follows the purchaser, not the machine and it is a lot of hassle trying to transfer warranty on a second hand Dell machine, you even have to know the seller's contact details and address before the transfer process can begin!

My sister who now owns my relatively short lived Dell E6410 had all the tags taken off by the previous owner so its pretty much denied the standard 3 year warranty we're entitled to. We're trying to discuss this with Dell support and it's an ongoing case.

 

However, there are some caveats to the IWS eligibility in some countries that some of you should be aware of.

Lenovo Support & downloads - International Warranty Service Terms And Conditions (English)

 

Just to sum up: if I want to buy a ThinkPad on the US website, I'm better off asking a friend of mine to pay for me and bring it to Europe, since:
1) European credit cards are not accepted;
2) in any case, warranty does not follow the owner, but the machine.
Is this correct?

 

I think so, yes. At least this is what I do. With the exception I buy the stuff myself when in the states, and then go back to Europe.

 

Does this mean that credit cards issued in Europe cannot be used in the UK? I find that very strange though it has been alluded to earlier on this thread.

 

I asked about US, not UK website.